OU CCAT - Mark III (Laddering/Discussing - See Post #547)

[Me So Shiny]

Here's my nomination


Haxorus@Lum berry
Trait: Mold breaker
36 HP/252 Atk/ 220 Spe
Swords Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Brick Break

SD Haxorus is an absolute beast when he can get the proper support from his team, which is exactly what this project is for. The set is the set straight from this website, if there are speed EV's that need to be moved around due to BW2 someone let me know and I will edit the post. I feel that lum berry is better than life orb, it gets you an extra turn of boosting when the opponent sends in a Poke to burn or paralyze Haxorus.

Haxorus's biggest problems are his troll speed and his hate of steel types who can withstand his earthquakes. However all of these problems can be solved when starting your team with Haxorus. The best teammates are magnezone or magneton who can trap the steels, and any pokemon who can spread paralysis to slow down faster pokes or scarfers.

A common response when trying to use Haxorus is people saying why not use Salamence or Dragonite. After all Mence as better speed and movepool, and Dragonite has one of the best abilities in the game. There are three main reason I wanted to nominate Haxorus, first is the neutrality to stealth rock, second his mammoth attack, and finally his low usage, Mence and Dnite are always seen, I feel that Haxorus needs some love.

[Pocket]

There's really no reason to use Brick Break on Haxorus, when it gets Superpower now. I would also much prefer Life Orb or Yache Berry than Lum Berry, since it's very unlikely that Haxorus would be sweeping through teams with multiple rounds of Outrage (unless it's a stall team). Other interesting item choice would be Fighting Gem, which would give +2 Adamant Haxorus a 50% chance to OHKO Skarmory after SR, and Dragon Fang, which allows +2 Outrage to 2HKO Skarmory. Substitute is also an option over Brick Break so Haxorus can shield itself from revenge-killers.

[PenguinX]

Nominating SubPass Gliscor


Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spd
Impish Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Earthquake
- Toxic / Taunt

SubPass is basically like VoltTurn except instead of dealing damage, you create better set-up oppurtunites. They tend to work really well with trapping mons like Magnezone and Dugtrio to help set-up an eventual sweep for mons that have good synergy with your SubPasser. Gliscor maintains its ability to be a bulky switch-in to the numerous Fighting-types in the tier but in this role functions as more of a teamplayer than the standard SubToxic variants. This Gliscor set is especially good at baiting in Skarmory early-game, Baton Passing away to Magnezone to trap it and then can even pass away a Substitute to SD Haxorus later in the game, taking advantage of Gliscor's ability to attract Water-type attacks. This is one of the better examples I've experienced with this set, but I'm sure there are plenty of other ways to fully abuse SubPass Gliscor that haven't been discovered yet. EW used this in wcop finals last year iirc if that means anything!

edit: updated EV spread so it outspeeds Jolly Mamoswine.

...

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Jolteon @ Leftovers
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Probably the most relevant of the 3 in the current metagame. Jolteon gets a lot of chances to pass Substitutes around against Drizzle teams in particular, as it forces out Tornadus-T. If they switch-out into something like Ferrothorn then you can pass a Substitute away to something that can potentially set-up on Ferrothorn.


Mienshao @ Life Orb
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Hi Jump Kick
- Swords Dance / Stone Edge / Hidden Power [Ice]

I haven't used this one as much as the other two but it still works pretty well. The main draw of SubPass Mienshao is being able to reduce the need for prediction against teams with stuff like Jellicent and Gengar, who Mien often has problems with. Although standard Mienshao has U-Turn, SubPass Mienshao can often be more effective as you reduce the chance of being put in a sticky situation if your opponent stays in as you u-turn out expecting a switch. Substitute also shields Mienshao from status in the circumstance that you can't outright KO the opposing Pokemon. SubPass works especially well with stuff like ScarfTar, who can trap and KO Gengar and some Psychic-types that switch-in on Mienshao. I can't remember who's team I first saw this in, might have been LizardMan icr.

[dragonuser]

Another option for SD Haxorus can be Aqua Tail if we choose to use him in the rain, as that can hit Pokemon like Skarmory really hard. Anyways, I have always been a huge fan of Substitute + Baton Pass Gliscor, but could never use it to its full potential. Sort of wondering what the community would do with it if we chose it, so yeah I would support Substitute + Baton Pass Gliscor out of those three.

[ginganinja]

Id go with Gliscor tbh. I used it on my Dark Horse Team, and while my set differed a little from yours, it was utterly devastating with Cloyster support, allowing it to safely pull off that Shell Smash. I much prefer it over something like Mienshao since its a lot easier to break the sub of Mienshao, which makes it harder to get that set up opportunity.

[ClubbingSealCub]

if I had to pick one of those 3 BP-Sub users, It'd most likely be Gliscor. Perhaps using Toxic/Protect to toxic stall, depending on the rest of the team.

[Electrolyte]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

There's really no reason to use Brick Break on Haxorus, when it gets Superpower now. I would also much prefer Life Orb or Yache Berry than Lum Berry, since it's very unlikely that Haxorus would be sweeping through teams with multiple rounds of Outrage (unless it's a stall team). Other interesting item choice would be Fighting Gem, which would give +2 Adamant Haxorus a 50% chance to OHKO Skarmory after SR, and Dragon Fang, which allows +2 Outrage to 2HKO Skarmory. Substitute is also an option over Brick Break so Haxorus can shield itself from revenge-killers.

This is true, and also Haxorus gets Low Kick as well, which is more powerful than Brick Break most of the time, and 2HKO's everything that needs to be 2HKO'd (namely Skarmory, Bronzong)

As for the best subpasser, I've always liked Jolteon, but I guess Gliscor is pretty decent as well. Jolteon's ability to cause switches and also pass superfast Subs is cool, and although the subs aren't nearly as bulky as Gliscor's it's fast, so wth. I've always considered SubPassScor as an Uber strategy, but hey, we considered Quick Stall in the previous CCAT, so what's to stop us

[PenguinX]

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Id go with Gliscor tbh. I used it on my Dark Horse Team, and while my set differed a little from yours, it was utterly devastating with Cloyster support, allowing it to safely pull off that Shell Smash. I much prefer it over something like Mienshao since its a lot easier to break the sub of Mienshao, which makes it harder to get that set up opportunity.

Care to tell how your set was different? I'm going to guess it had Swords Dance or Agility or a combination of the two. I've tried using both of these but I felt they sort of compromised Gliscor's main draw as a defensive pivot a little. I've personally never had much success with a SubPass Gliscor with anything but Toxic or Taunt in that last slot, but it'd be nice to get some more information on what your set was and your experiences with it.

I agree that Gliscor is probably the most consistent (and therefore more efficient) SubPasser of the 3 but Mienshao and Jolteon do still have their clear advantages, namely that huge increase in speed. Mienshao and Jolteon tend to rely on forcing out opposing Pokemon and then outspeeding the switch-in to get off that SubPass. Gliscor's comparatively lackluster speed is probably its biggest shortcoming, as if your opponent has something that can switch-in to Gliscor with ease and outspeed it to break the Substitute before you can pass it (i.e. Starmie!) then you aren't going to be getting much SubPassing done. I find Gliscor relies on "blind" passing immediately early game far more than Mienshao and Jolteon do, not that this is necessarily a bad thing.

[ginganinja]

Yea I ran Agility / Earthquake / Substitute / Baton Pass which was neat I guess, but rly specialised since I really just wanted to see how neat Hydreigon could be with a speed boost. I still think standard Sub Pass is best tho.

I never really found Gliscors lack of speed to be a problem. This might have been because I highlighted what non choiced pokemon could outspeed Gliscor and hit it super-effectively, and then tailored my next pokemon to be able to beat said pokemon (For example I ran Ninetales + Lilligant + Gliscor for lols since Lilligant could outsped Starmie and heal off any damage with Giga Drain, or I could dry pass to scout the switch.

Gliscors biggest draw for me was that bulk, which, when combined with its like 2 weaknesses, made it fairly easy for me to pick what I could pass to. For example I knew that Mamoswine would Icicle Spear my Gliscor, so I included Cloyster to tank that Icicle Spear, still have my Substitute intact, and then Shell Smash and sweep. Mienshao and Jolteon have this slightly harder since they are frailer, which makes it harder to predict what move your opponent will use which in turn makes it slightly trickier to pick your recipient. Jolteon and Gliscor are prolly the best at sub passing, and its down to personal preference imo.

[alexwolf]

Gliscor is by far the most reliable SubPasser, but i prefer SubPass Mienshao because of his awesome ability and Mienshao's ability to force switches. SubPass Gliscor is a nice set, but loses the ability to deal with so many threats that he could when running a more standard set. In the other hand SubPass Mienshao loses none of its usual utility. He still hits hard as fuck, has ok coverage, and can scout (although not with damage but still). But he has the pro of being able to baton pass Subs to his teammates in exchange for losing the ability to beat Gliscor and Landorus(-T), which is not that big of a deal anyway, as you can bring in a teammate anyway safely to threaten them.

I don't like SubPass Jolteon so much, because Jolteon has no way of recovering health and he is difficult to bring in anyway, so i see little merit to this set. Tbh i have never used it, and maybe i am missing something, but i would prefer to use the other 2 pokes any day of the weak, unless i wanted desperately a Torn-T check.

So my vote goes to Mienshao, which i think will be a very interesting poke to build a team around. So many pokes would love a free Sub, which might even be kept if you brought in a poke that resists the move that was used.

Finally if you decide to go with Gliscor, i really suggest you put Taunt in the last slot. With Taunt, Skarmory, one of Gliscor's most common counters, becomes pure set-up bait, which is priceless imo. It also lets you beat and set-up against most hazard setters (even against Deo-D without Magic Coat or Mental Herb if you run enough Speed) and some other phazers that you could otherwise set-up on, such as Hippowdon.

[Ambicrow3]

Flygon (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Fire Punch


Although there is no analysis for it, I've used this set to a great deal of success, and have laddered with him to ~1800 on the old ladder, and I am by no means, a great player. Used as a great check to lavos sun, and sun in general, sweep late game with unresisted coverage, and with resistances to EdgeQuake, fire attacks, and immunity to electric attacks, subbing up with Flygon isn't very hard, especially because he is not frail. Immunity to almost all entry hazards, only taking 6.25% from the common SR, Flygon can come in and use substitute more than once, and easily wreak havoc among the opposing team, and switch out of a counter with almost no net damage, due to leftovers and the lack of residual damage, due to his sandstorm immunity.

What is so scary about Flygon is that he has almost perfect neutral coverage with his STABs alone, making most pokemon a 3hko at the least if they are bulky, and 2hko for most. With a somewhat blazing 100 Speed, he can easily get 2 hits off behind a sub, easily taking down at least one pokemon, and can usually take down 3 pokemon a game after some residual damage, and depending on the team, can sweep them (think lavos sun). Flygon should definitely be used on any team that would like a great late game cleaner and already has hazard support, or if you just need a great check to best sun team built this generation.

[Joeyboy]

Genesect @ Life Orb
Trait: Download
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 Atk
Modest Nature
- Rock Polish
- Bug Buzz / Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Thunderbolt / Bug Buzz

This thing rocks and it doesn't get enough use. Sure everyone knows about it but seriously all people use is the Choice Scarf set. Once Heatran, Gastrodon, the blobs are weakened this thing shreds teams. Its most effective against offensive teams as Genesect causes so many switches that getting a turn to Rock Polish is easy. Also if it gets the +1 from Download, look out.

[Pocket]

I was also thinking of RP Genesect, Joeyboy :d I strongly advise Bug Buzz > Flamethrower, though. The STAB really helps when you're facing mons like Tyranitar and Rotom-W.

[ThunderBlunder]

Alakazam (F) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Charge Beam

Singlehandedly destroys teams- Rain Stall falls to this because at plus 1 Alakazam 2HKOs Chansey. Focus sash is to gurantee a charge beam boost, but you can always run Life orb and revenge kill something why Psychic to start smashing through teams. HP Ice is mainly there because in conjuction with sash you can revenge kill many plus 1 dragons and RP Landorus

[White symphoni]

@Joeyboy, I agree with pocket.Bug Buzz is a better option over flamethrower.Having used it a lot since it's released on PO and PS suspect ladder,Bug Buzz really seemed the best choice to me.Although Giga Drain,Flamethrower,Ice Beam is an interesting combo which I've seen to be quite effective.

[PenguinX]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Finally if you decide to go with Gliscor, i really suggest you put Taunt in the last slot. With Taunt, Skarmory, one of Gliscor's most common counters, becomes pure set-up bait, which is priceless imo. It also lets you beat and set-up against most hazard setters (even against Deo-D without Magic Coat or Mental Herb if you run enough Speed) and some other phazers that you could otherwise set-up on, such as Hippowdon.

I've used both Taunt and Toxic a lot but which is more useful depends on the rest of the team. Taunt is certainly better to help get off a SubPass but it leaves Gliscor completely unable to touch any Flying-types or Pokemon with Levitate. I found Toxic in the last slot generally more useful as it meant Gliscor still had plenty of use outside of just SubPass, being able to spread Toxic on stuff like Rotom-W and just generally being able to play like standard Gliscor. I've also decided to make Gliscor my main nomination, it seems to have a lot more support behind it and from experience is easier to build a team around too.

Regarding RP Genesect, I think Bug Buzz should also be slashed with Thunderbolt as well. I really prefer the coverage of Bug Buzz / Ice Beam / Flamethrower rather than Thunderbolt, since +1 LO Modest Bug Buzz is already hitting every bulky water bar Jellicent and Gyarados incredibly hard (and even then I think these are both 2hkod?). Losing Flamethrower means Genesect has a very hard time getting around the numerous bulky steels in the tier, as Thunderbolt is your best attack to hit them with. Both sets have their advantages but I think Bug Buzz / Ice Beam / Flamethrower generally needs far less team support.

[Me So Shiny]

After many appreciated comments to my Haxorus set I have revised it to be


Haxorus@Life Orb
Trait: Mold breaker
36 HP/252 Atk/ 220 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
Swords Dance
Outrage
Earthquake
Low Kick

I have revised a few things, life orb over lum berry for a little extra power, and if his teammates were to do their job correctly no one would get a chance to status him anyways. Also switched brick break to low kick, I chose this instead of superpower because Haxorus won't be brought in until the end of the match when Pokes like Skarmory or Bronzong are either gone or have their HP whittled down. Remember Haxorus' two favorite supporters are a steel trapper and paralysis support, those are the keys to a Haxorus sweep. I also noticed that I forgot to mention adamant nature in my first post, I chose this over jolly because hopefully any faster pokes are either paralyzed or gone by the time Hax is brought in.

Also I liked the idea of running aqua tail on him as a nice surprise but it requires rain to do any real damage, and I feel like picking a poke who needs rain will greatly hinder this project. It would lock in at least one other member(toed) and possibly a few more, Tornadus-t, tentacruel, or maybe thundurus-t. I don't think that is a good way to start the project.

When it comes to which sub-passer to use between Jolteon, Gliscor, and Mienshao, I think I would vote for jolteon due to the fact of just how common Gliscor is, even though his subpass set is not common. I just feel this project gives a great opportunity to explore less used pokes and sets.

[Electrolyte]

Ok, now it's time to vote! We'll do it just like last time- post your three favorite sets, in order from most favorite to not-as-favorite. Here's an example:
1. Random
2. Pokemon
3. Set
Yes, it has to be bold.

Discussion WILL be allowed in this vote- but be careful, as you ARE NOT allowed to change your votes!

Here's a list of all nominations-


Me so shiny's SD Haxorus
PenguinX's Subpass Gliscor
Joeyboy's RP Genesect
ThunderBlunder's Alakazam
Harsha's Sub Hydreigon
Ambicrow3's Flygon
Zpattack12's Staraptor
TheQWAZ's Weavile
FrozenUK's Hitmontop
Fuzzy's Scizor
ClubbingSealCub's Shaymin
TempV1's Lucario
White symphoni's Salamence
Ganj4lf's Poliwrath
Bubbly's Gyarados
Superpowerdude's Cloyster
King's Terrakion
Princess Bri's Feraligatr
Tehy's SpDef Hippowdon
Electrolyte's SubCM Jirachi
Ithilanor's Flame Plate Victini
Alkinesthetase's QD Venemoth
Alexwolf's Prankster Riolu
StairFall's FO Sygilyph
Pillsburydoughboy's Latias
GatoDelFuego's RP Lamdorus
Lavos Spawn's TormentTran
Asterat's Jynx
Somebodyanonymous's Deoxys-D
Dragonuser's SB Sharpedo
Jimbon's Banded Mienshao


Remember, discussion is allowed, so backing ip your thoughts is a very good idea. A tie will be broken by another smaller, precise vote. Get voting!

(Husky, Zoroark is not ip there because there's no point in making another team with it, sorry)

[ThisMysteriousGuy]

Damn it, missed noms. Ah well:

1. White symphoni's Salamence

For the record, Mence is my favorite Pokemon ever, but I've never really taken a close look at the Mixed Sets to be honest. I'm a big fan of MixQuaza in Ubers, so seeing what appears to be an equivalent in OU would fare would be rather interesting, especially how I never see MixMence when I play OU.

2. Joeyboy's RP Genesect

I remember using a Rock Polish Genesect on a "gimmick" team I made. It was just...awesome. Genesect can easily force a switch, then you can grab a Rock Polish boost to follow up with a very simple sweep. Therefore, I think it would be rather fun to see a team that puts it at its fullest potential.

3. Lavos Spawn's TormentTran

I've tried TormentTran once. It failed miserably. Still, the concept was incredibly interesting and I was interested in how to get it to work properly, though I feel this is a more Stall-Based set. Therefore, I doubt I'd help much as offense is my forte, but, regardless, I find the set very interesting and would love to see how to properly use it.

Yeah, I know my descriptions are kinda short

[alexwolf]

1.PenguinX's Subpass Gliscor
2.Ganj4lf's Poliwrath
3.Alexwolf's Prankster Riolu

[tehy]

1. Tehy's Spdef Hippowdon
As we all know, Tehy is just about the sexiest man alive, and spdef hippowdon, being his official baby-mama, is clearly sexy. Spdef hippowdon, despite automatically forcing us to not play a sun or rain team, still gives us great flexibility. It's difficult for him to cede momentum, because of his high base attack, strong EQ, and roar, so he can still be used effectively on balance teams, and even offense teams. I'm not sure if he works on HO, but they do have a problem with sweepers-their solution is never letting them set up, but if they do, somewhat GG. Hippow helps there. So it's a great pokemon that doesn't force us to use something.

2: PenguinX's Subpass Gliscor
I don't have such an amazing and reasoned explanation for this. Subpass sounds like a cool strategy,i'd like to try it.

3: Alexwolf's Riolu
If enough people feel like trying this strategy, then what the hell, let's go for it. I'm not sure if such a gimmicky team is worth exploring, but it should be interesting to try.

As a side note, how did you manage to misspell two different words as ip? Funny stuffs.

[Allen Blaze]

1. Ithilanor's Flame Plate Victini
2. Dragonuser's SB Sharpedo
3. Joeyboy's RP Genesect

[Jimbon]

1) thunderblunder's alakazam
2) princess bri's feraligatr
3) harsha's sub hydreigon

[Scarfwynaut]

1. Tehy's SpDef Hippowdon
2. FrozenUK's Hitmontop
3. Pillsburydoughboy's Latias

All of these votes are in hope of making a stall team which like last time, I believe would be a great playstyle to play with in the BW2 meta and to get out of the bore of the usually hyper offensive teams CCAT usually does.

I already said why I want to do Hippowdon and by small issues with the specific set.

Hitmontop is by number 2 vote for one good reason, making a stall team around a spinner, can in theory solve a lot of synergy problems. The tendency is when I make a stall team, the spinner ends up being last, and as that point you are also attempting to find glue pokemon and to get all the hazards you need. The last thing that should be on your mind is a spinner, but unfortunately it is. If a team was made with a spinner in mind right from the start, I feel it may fix these issues later on when team building.

My last vote was tough, Latias, Gyarados, and Heatran are tempting options to start with. Overall I felt that Latias would be a good member to start off with because of its ability to get a Thundurus-T check out of the way and check several things due to its high speed, a counter to CM-reuniclus and Jirachi, finally, it can make a great late game sweeper which a stall team often needs to finish the game. All in all a solid stalling pokemon.

[ganj4lF]

1. ganj4lF's Poliwrath
2. alkinesthetase's Venomoth
3. Jimbon's Mienshao

Well, there is a huge amount of interesting set there, so I just picked the three I'd like more to see as a part of this CCAT. Many others are fine as well, for me - Lavos' Heatran was my fourth favourite, and Victini wasn't that much behind too.