NU Viability Ranking

[DTC]

Persian does the job of "preventing hazards from being set up" no better than every other Pokemon with Taunt. It cannot threaten any of the hazard setters with attacks, and they can simply attack Persian. Said attack will at the very least 2HKO Persian. Stealth Rock / Spikes / whatever can just be sent out a little bit later in the game. If I put Persian on the list, it will probably be in the D tier, and mostly because of the Nasty Plot set.

I agree with Raseri's suggestion, and will do it right away.

[Agent Gibbs]

I'd like to nominate Dodrio for D-Rank. I feel that it fits the "usable but with no real niche" part of the D-Rank description. Normally there would be little reason to use it over Braviary, who gets Superpower and U-turn, but I have had plenty of success with it as a Scarf user on a bird offense team alongside CB Braviary. An Adamant Dodrio has a bit more power and speed than a Jolly Braviary, and since Braviary isn't breaking many bulky Rock and Steel types with a Scarf anyways, the Superpower advantage is less of an issue. I feel like Dodrio is an impressive enough offensive Pokemon to get a mention, but due to the fact that Braviary pretty heavily outclasses it, it could fit in the D-Rank.

[ium]

Originally Posted by Fat Agent Gibbs

An Adamant Dodrio has a bit more power and speed than a Jolly Braviary, and since Braviary isn't breaking many bulky Rock and Steel types with a Scarf anyways, the Superpower advantage is less of an issue.

i don't think that you should necessarily be putting it that way. the fact that braviary even has superpower means that the chance of it being able to bust through rock- and steel-types is still there despite requiring some prediction. dodrio will never be able to do that no matter what and will be more likely to accumulate stealth rock damage from having to constantly switch out of those kinds of checks. that's the actual difference.

as for persian, it has a little variety in being able to run different sets, but it still has to deal with having 70/65 offenses. that's really poor. even at +2, there is no way persian is going to easily KO everything without having to take a hard hit. fake out, taunt, and u-turn are also pretty mediocre on it anyway. i often find that persian accumulates more damage on itself than on the opposing pokemon, and it doesn't really threaten stealth rock setters regardless. something like samurott could utilize taunt and strong water-type attacks to threaten stealth rock setters more efficiently.

[A Novel Idea]

I've been using scout Persian with a lot of success on my latest Showdown account, annelle. It can preserve momentum and completely shut down common Misdreavus, Alomomola, Lickilicky and Audino, as well as some common rock setters. It needs good team synergy to function well though, and hazards ruin it (I don't have a rapid spinner though--I try to use offensive pressure to prevent the opponent from setting up too much... sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't).

I have both Piloswine and Persian and I usually don't lead with either of 'em. That lends it some more long term survivability; with a Silk Scarf it actually makes a decent lategame cleaner.

[Aasgier]

Persian with Taunt isn't a good idea if you ask me. Regirock sometimes wields a Rocky Helmet, making Fake Out a poor choice as it does not do much damage. Furthermore, the rock golem does not care about Taunt, considering it simply OHKO's Persian with Drain Punch.
Speaking of golems, Golem is in the same boat as it can OHKO with STAB Earthquake.

This also goes for Golurk and Piloswine as well.

[chitinase]

Nomination: Persian from E to D Rank

Persian with Taunt is pretty useless, since it's too frail to take direct hits anyway, but NP Persian is actually pretty useful in punching large holes in the opponent's team early-game or cleaning late-game. (It also makes a fantastic receiver of Masquerain's Quiver Dances.) It has an interesting niche in luring out some physical walls and before hitting them hard with Technician-boosted special attacks. Unfortunately, it has more cons than pros in the form of usable but not outstanding defenses, no resists and only one immunity as well as not very stellar special attack, so anything offensive at all is almost certain to OHKO it.

Also, most people expect Persian to run the standard Fake Out set, so Regirock and Golem usually choose to set up rocks on the first turn before aiming to KO on the second.

Calculations:

...

---

With one NP boost:
252SpAtk +2 Technician Persian (+SAtk) Water Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Regirock (+SpDef): 54% - 64% (198 - 234 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb +2 Technician Persian (+SAtk) Shock Wave vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Alomomola (Neutral): 123% - 146% (662 - 780 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.

Without boosts:
252SpAtk Life Orb Technician Persian (+SAtk) Water Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Leftovers Regirock (Neutral): 48% - 58% (178 - 212 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 16% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.
252SpAtk Technician Persian (+SAtk) Water Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Golem (+SpDef): 71% - 84% (260 - 308 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Technician Persian (+SAtk) Water Pulse vs 212HP/0SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Gigalith (Neutral): 50% - 59% (184 - 218 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252SpAtk Life Orb Technician Persian (+SAtk) Shock Wave vs 252HP/4SpDef Leftovers Alomomola (Neutral): 62% - 73% (332 - 392 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

So yes, overall I'd say it's definitely usable alright even with all of its downsides.

[Nyara]

I nominate Wailord for C Rank (or at least D Rank), why?

1. It can make 101 HP substitutes, that's something for.

2. It's natural bulk is quite excelent, and it's offensive stats are usable, now if you put defensive EV's, you have a tank that can shoot quite decent Scalds to everything on the tier.

3. Add the fact that it can use Aqua Ring, it does have Pressure, and can use Subsitute + Protect, and you'll make almost a mimic of Walrein in the Hail... but without the need of weather, with a better defensive type, with access to STAB Scald, and with an almost identical natural bulk.

4. It can even Setup a Substitute facing a Magnezone 1+ using Thunderbolt (I tested and calculated already), I think that's a good demostration of how Wailord can setup Aqua Ring + Substitute against almost anything on NU (and you can even make him only to tank physical or special attacks, but it can actually tank both quite well).

5. Once Wailord had Aqua Ring and Substitute setted, you can only phaze him with Roar/Whirlind or with Taunt, because it's subs resist even 2 STAB Bullet Seeds coming from 80 base attack, and even if you try to phaze it Wailord still had STAB Scald coming from 90 base special attack, and that gives a good punch, and if you success on burning, you can tank it's physical attacks like a king, or stall it's HP and PP to the oblivion.

6. If we take Pressure in account, it can drain a huge total of 64 of PP from differents attacks, as we know, even Pokémon with moves with high PP will have all their offensive drained by Wailord, and if they try to stall it with not-attack moves, you can just Scald them until burning them and keep overstalling, or just K.O things by doing damage, or by summing Toxic damage from Toxic Spikes.

If it doesn't seens like a huge offensive tank, you can focus it's defense on only one area, and you can use Hydro Pump or Surf with 252 EV's on SPA to hit really hard while you're still having a (huge) bulky of one side, and more speed than the most of the walls of the tier. It also does have an offensive set using Choice Scarf and Water Spout, and it hits really hard and is a good revenge killer, generally, and can act as a good late-game cleanner, too, and at the difference of other special late-game cleanners, Wailord can do decents Double-Edges (bypassing special walls and others waters) and almost losing nothing of it's huge HP, and thus, not losing too much power from Water Spout.

Brine can also be used on Cleanners Sets and on the main set I said as long you have Toxic Spikes support, so, you can finish of with a STRONG STAB of 130 a good number of threats with wasting only few PP's of substitute + protect.

[The Quasar]

I would not be wrong, but there isn't Pelipper. My cent is for C.

Under rain, with Hurricane (100% accurate) and Rain Dish Pelipper transforms itself into a powerful tank. Keep watch over it.

[ium]

Originally Posted by Fat The Quasar

I would not be wrong, but there isn't Pelipper. My cent is for C.

Under rain, with Hurricane (100% accurate) and Rain Dish Pelipper transforms itself into a powerful tank. Keep watch over it.

honestly, pelipper's bulk and access to rain dish doesn't give itself a solid niche. it still has issues with comfortably taking a hit from common physical threats such as zangoose, sawsbuck, and choice band sawk. stealth rock also cuts into its bulk considerably, solidifying the 2HKOs that some of those pokemon can achieve. the reason why swanna is much preferred is because it outspeeds all of those threats (and more) with its 98 base speed, and does not rely on its bulk, making the issue of stealth rock much more negligible.

[The Quasar]

Originally Posted by Fat ium

honestly, pelipper's bulk and access to rain dish doesn't give itself a solid niche. it still has issues with comfortably taking a hit from common physical threats such as zangoose, sawsbuck, and choice band sawk. stealth rock also cuts into its bulk considerably, solidifying the 2HKOs that some of those pokemon can achieve. the reason why swanna is much preferred is because it outspeeds all of those threats (and more) with its 98 base speed, and does not rely on its bulk, making the issue of stealth rock much more negligible.

You are right, I compared statistics values between Pelipper and Swanna. Pelipper is more difensive and it has Hydro Pump, but Swanna is faster at lot and better overall statistics except the defense.

Perphaps, the right letter for Pelipper is D.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Where are we putting the dropdowns on these rankings? I don't know where they belong, really. Perhaps Roselia for A and Stoutland for C or D.

That said, I think Wartortle should be moved to E. Honestly, I think it's just that bad. It can't spin worth a damn-it has zero offensive presence and it can't even spin on any of the spinblockers, not even Haunter. Since Wartortle has no recovery, not even Leftover, the Spikes and Stealth Rocks it is supposed to spin wear it down so easily. This is also further compounded by the fact that Wartortle is insanely easy to force out (Roselia and Cacturne, two of the best Spikers in the tier, don't even give two fucks about Wartortle). The best it can do to something is poison them with Toxic, which is nothing, because Haunter is immune to it and Missy can just use Heal Bell to ward it off. Golurk also just smashes Wartortle quickly. If you do decide to run Seismic Toss, you basically do nothing to any spinblocker. If you do use Rest, you're asking to get beaten by any decent NU team. Wartortle is also free setup fodder for everything, with dangerous Grass-types like Sawsbuck and Serperior just sitting there and setting up in Wartortle's face before stomping on it. So yeah, overall, Wartortle is so horrible it deserves at least E-Rank.

And as I said before, Roselia for A, it's one of the best Spikers in the tier. Stoutland for either C or D because it's alright at what it does, but it's outclassed for the most part.

[ium]

Originally Posted by Fat ScraftyIsTheBest

That said, I think Wartortle should be moved to E.

the difference between wartortle and the other spinners is that wartortle can at least guarantee a spin if you aren't playing horribly with it. it has foresight and pretty nice bulk, which means if you absolutely need to get a rapid spin off, wartortle can do it. therefore, wartortle has a given niche that can place it in at least d rank. however, yeah it performs poorly against many hazard setters and ghost-types, so that is why it's not too high either. i don't think it deserves to be at c rank, but it definitely does not deserve to be e rank either.

also, people have told you the same thing before, so you shouldn't be dismissing their opinions too.

Originally Posted by Fat ScraftyIsTheBest

And as I said before, Roselia for A, it's one of the best Spikers in the tier. Stoutland for either C or D because it's alright at what it does, but it's outclassed for the most part.

those aren't really well-explained, substantiated reasons so i can't really say i can agree, but roselia seems to be more b rank by definition. roselia's flaws are more inherent in its stats, which keeps it from being able to take on the likes of sawk, samurott, carracosta, and other stuff despite the grass/poison typing. even though roselia has great special defense, a lot of the things that attack from the special side usually have stab or coverage moves that will hurt it a lot. think water-types with ice beam, exeggutor, rotom-a, psychic-types, and much more. its special defense is only really helpful for taking advantage of weaker attackers, which garbodor can also do. regardless, roselia is still good at spiking, but i don't think it's overly outstanding to warrant an a rank unless someone can point out otherwise.

[sickweare]

Yeah, I agree that Wartortle sucks, but it's ability to guarantee a rapid spin is a thing that many teams desperately need. It has a given niche for being used, but it really isn't that great outside of that which warrants its placement. That being said, D-tier seems fitting, but I can settle with low C-tier. If you want a spinner, but you're not worried to death about SR/spikes, Armaldo is the best spinner in the tier imo (also imo i think he's A-tier material ;; ). Hope this makes sense!

Another thing I suggested earlier was the rise of Grumpig to C-rank. At the time, hail was active and thick fat made him extremely viable. Now that hail is basically gone, he doesn't have as much of a chance, but he can still function really well as a special wall as well as set dual screens up, twave the opponent and act as a team cleric. I know these are all things that Lickilicky can do (except dual screens), but I feel Grumpig can help a lot! Also, a STAB Psychic coming off of base 90 SpA isn't outstanding, but it can finish off weaker threats to Grumpig (and Focus Miss can help too). Thick Fat can also be useful for those annoying Charizards still running around the tier.

[Aasgier]

Meh, Grumpig is outclassed by Gardevoir in many cases. It does have Whirlwind and two nifty resistances with Thick Fat, but that's it basically...

[sickweare]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. The difference is that Grumpig has higher HP and those two resistances can definitely come in handy. Plus, I don't really see many people running Gardy's that are non-offensive since she has a huge amount of power.

[Aasgier]

Gardevoir's huge amount of power doesn't stop it from running defensive sets; it still has 115 SDef, and it is faster as well, which can be a major advantage even on support sets.

Grumpig only has an advantage over Gardevoir if you need Whirlwind along those support moves, and/or if the Thick Fat resistances are useful to your team.

[DTC]

Grumpig has slightly better overall bulk, Thick Fat, and Whirlwind over defensive Gardevoir. Considering the usefulness of Fire- and Ice-type resistances (although both were more relevant before the tier shifts), Grumpig getting moved up to C tier sounds like a decent idea. I was planning on moving Grumpig up to C before, but then tiershifts happened.

I'm not going to move Grumpig up to C rank yet, though. I need a bit more convincing. I have never tested out Grumpig before, but unfortunately Grumpig isn't really the kind of Pokemon you can just throw on a team. Grumpig has specific good attributes, but not too many outside of that.

[sickweare]

Gardy doesn't outspeed Grumpig, surprisingly, they are in the same speed tier. That doesn't make much of a difference though. For me, Grumpig covers my weaknesses very well. I like to run Coil Serperior and Grumpig takes care of both of his weaknesses. Grumpig has the bulk to take on even SE special attacks (shadow ball, signal beam). He also is faster than Lickilicky meaning he can twave or heal bell or whatever he wants to do at a faster rate than lickilicky. Most people see him and don't really know what to do (because lol nobody uses him). He's a great pair to offensive teams that need to set up as well as stall teams. I don't use stall much though, so I can't really place him on that.

Lickilicky also has a bad 4Moveslot syndrome that Grumpig doesn't. Grumpig has a good role and can work with it. Unfortunately, it is let down by having no reliable recovery aside from the obvious rest+leftovers (why doesn't it get recover? :[ ). Like I said about Charizard running around, Grumpy takes care of him no problem and can use tbolt if he really wants to KO him but that's not what I would usually do. Also, it takes the ever-increasing Piloswine. Een though Pilo has physical attacks, Grumpig can switch in on ice shard/icicle spear and outspeed and hit pilo with focus miss (what I use). So, yeah, it's reliable, but not on the same level as lickilicky, but is great if you want something that has a little bit of reliable attacking prowess.

Thank you for your time.

[DTC]

Hey guys, I am considering moving Skuntank up to S rank. Skuntank is ridiculously good at removing Musharna, who is definitely one of the top threats in the current NU metagame. It does a fantastic job removing every Psychic-type, which are getting increasingly more popular. It's also worth noting that the core of Skuntank + Sawk (Musharna fits into this core as well) is extremely potent.

[Aasgier]

Skuntank is indeed very powerful and a very decent threat. It also resists many of the coverage moves on Psychic-types (or at the very least, is not weak to them), forcing them to carry Hidden Power [Ground].

Yet, I have problems with it being S rank, which is because Skuntank can only do very few things, namely trapping Psychic's and Ghosts, and if it is forced to do something else for whatever reason, it is complete deadweight. It is fine in A rank as it is.
Skuntank loses head to head to pretty much every Pokémon that isn't weak to it, bar something ridiculously weak.

[JoshuaMunoz]

I agree bringing Skuntank to S-Rank because it checks/counters most (if not all) ghosts and psychics on the tier. Its typing is not too shabby either, the ability to absorb Toxic Spikes and having only one weakness.

Now since Absol is gone, Skuntank is now the most reliable check to Musharna. It has enough bulk to survive some moderately strong special attacks from psychics and ghosts, like Mushy's Signal Beam and Gardevoir's Focus Blast etc. and hit them relatively hard with its dark type attacks. Sucker Punch is one of its main selling points because it hits faster Pokemon, frail scarfers, and more for a lot of damage. Pursuit also nets kills on Pokemon that don't even switch out (Haunter and Kadabra), but some of them carry Destiny Bond, so you better scout out for that.

Overall, Skuntank fits well in almost every team. It can take some hits and dish them out as well. It has a unique niche in NU, which makes me believe it is worth to deserve an S-Rank.

[Aasgier]

Physically defensive Musharna does, as far as I know, not care about Skuntank's attacks unless it uses Crunch or Sucker Punch (if that actually hits), which means Musharna can just switch out.

What does physically defensive Mushy take from Skuntank's Pursuit if it doesn't switch out? 20%? 25%?

[Punchshroom]

252Atk Choice Band Hustle Zweilous (+Atk) Crunch vs 240HP/252Def Musharna (+Def): 90% - 105% (390 - 458 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 36% chance to OHKO.

That's about the only thing in NU capable of OHKOing Musharna. This isn't helped by the fact that all super effective attacks against Musharna do not have a base power exceeding 80 (except Punishment, which requires Mushy to acquire a CM boost beforehand), as Megahorn users are in higher tiers.

[Ewil]

I agree with the Skuntank for S-Rank since he can counter basically all the Psychic-Type, can absorb T-Spikes (that's one of the matters that prevents players from using T-Spikes), can traps, can poison with Poison Jab, can Taunt, has a strong STAB priority that prevents a lot of Chlorophyl/Swift Swimmers from attacking and he can even go mixed.

I also want to propose Gardevoir for S-Rank. She basically function as a trapper for Dark-Types by using Will-O Wisp (usually the situations is that Skuntank try to Pursuit/Sucker Punch her and get Burned). The unpredictable is the base of this pokemon, since she can have a lot of sets: Dual Screener, Utility, Scarf/Specs-Revenger, CM+3Attacks, SUB+CM, SUB+3Attacks. She has a good speed for the metagame and two great ability in Synchronize and the most useful: Trace. That is a bit situational, but it is a guaranteed advantage against weather team for example. She has a good Special Defense too, so you can go defensive with a support set and can learn a lot of utility move including: Taunt, Encore, Heal Bell, Dual Screens, Healing Wish, Wish, Hypnosis, Will-O Wisp, Destiny Bond, Disable, Memento, Magic Coat, Pain Split, Thunder Wave, Trick, Toxic, Rain Dance, Torment, Rest+Sleep-Talk(not so useful, but still a set), Psych Up, Swagger and Trick Room.

She's an unpredictable one and can even threaten Dark-Types functioning as a lure. I think she worthing the S-Rank.

[Punchshroom]

Wow, didn't even know Garde is only in A Rank, which is downright absurd. Musharna has insane bulk, but Gardevoir has usable speed and incredible versatility on her side. Trace is also pretty awesome for a situational ability, revenge kill weather sweepers, gain unexpected immunties/resistances, shrug off status or damage etc. Gardevoir can do damn well anything you want it to. Calm Mind with its usable speed ensures it isn't outclassed by Mushy. Perhaps you want to hit hard right off the bat? Choice sets or Life Orb are fine options, while Mushy needs Trick Room to sweep like Garde does. Garde has one of the largest support movepools I've seen in a Pokemon (see above). You can't simply switch in your Psychic check in on Garde without hesitation, especialy if you don't know its set. A well played Gardevoir can easily dismantle teams, if not help a fellow teammate finish the job with Dual Screens, Memento or Healing Wish.

Gardevoir for S-Rank, I'm surprised she wasn't already. She has very few exploitable flaws (inability to boost speed) and even then, her vast movepool, sheer unpredictability and brilliantly placed stats more than makes up for it.