NU Viability Ranking

[Aasgier]

Gardevoir for S-Rank is something I certainly agree with. Gardevoir can do so many things and is one of the best psychic types. Offensively it is far more dangerous than any other Psychic type in NU with its vast movepool from Psychic to Energy Ball, from Reflect to Thunder Wave and from Thunderbolt to Imprison.

Its biggest flaw is its weakness to Skuntank. The lack of speed boosting can be somewhat annoying as well.

But Gardy's insane versatility more than makes up for it.

[Punchshroom]

Gardevoir isn't even that weak to Skunk when compared to stuff like Kadabra and Musharna. Kadabra dies to Pursuit whether it stays in or not. Mushy gets Taunted before it can do any setup or debilitating moves like T-Wave or Barrier. Gardevoir takes advantage of Skunk's lack of speed investmet and does moves like Will-o-Wisp, Reflect, Destiny Bond, Memento, Healing Wish etc. before Skunk can stop her, and she doesn't die to unboosted Pursuit either.

Garde's stat placement also allows her to get the (almost) best of both worlds: good offensive sweeper stats like Kadabra and comparable bulk to Grumpig gives her the ability to make the most out of her gigantic movepool, offensive or defensive alike.

[Ewil]

Yes ! I focused more on the defensive and supportive carateristic and i forget about a Life Orb set and the plethora of attacking options she has. I think she misses only Ice Beam and Earth Power to his arsenal (specially Earth Power to hit Skuntank super-hard) but she can simply go for an Hidden Power. Psychic, Psyshock, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball/Grass Knot, Signal Beam (Ludicolo and Psychic type anyone ?), Hidden Power, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast (Damn Aura Sphere ;_;) and even Charge Beam can be a viable option and using an Icy Wind (a bit niche).

She has a lot of viable option to fight Pursuit trapper (and dark types in general) in Will-O Wisp, Encore, Barrier, etc.

She and Skuntank definetly deserve an S-Rank.

P.S. If they go S-Rank i basically have a team composed by 4 S-Rank and 2 A-Rank............I propose Piloswine and Gurdurr for S-Rank !!! lol, jk.

[CBTerrakion]

skuntank is not worthy of s-rank due to being easily checked by bulky pokemon, especially rock and ground types such as golem and regirock, and its primary role being the removal of psychic and ghost type pokemon with sucker punch+ pursuit. skuntank is more of a niche pokemon, albeit a good one, so s-rank is not for it.

[Ninja Dewott]

I agree that Skuntank should remain A-rank

CBT summed it up pretty well. Skuntank is fantastic at removing Psychics (and Toxic Spikes too I guess), but to be honest, aside from revenge killing with Sucker Punch, that's about it. And, at the end of the day, Skuntank doesn't always beat Gardevoir, thanks to the threat of will-o-wisp

The vast majority of NU teams carry a bulky rock type to counter Birds and set down Stealth Rock. These things completely wall Skuntank and can usually take it down in return. As someone else said, Skuntank loses to other pokes that it's not designed to take on. Basically, Skuntank has to fight a battle on its own terms. If it does, it will usually win. If it doesn't, it will usually lose. Stuff like Braviary, Samurott and Sawk, to name but a few, are all common threats that can take on Skuntank with ease, thanks to Skuntank's fairly sub-par offensive stats.

Skuntank is definetly a threat in the NU metagame but in my opinion, it's certainly not worth of a place in the S-rank.

Speaking of which, why is S rank always higher than A rank?

[Agent Dell]

100% support of what Ninja Dewott is stating. I feel that the thing about Skuntank that people go wrong about is the fact that I don't think that we should go by overcrowding the S-rank just because a certain Pokemon has a niche that they really excel on. When I think of S-rank Pokemon, I think of Pokemon that defines the metagame. Skuntank is certainly good at what it normally accomplishes, but I honestly don't see Skuntank being at that "change the metagame" level, because of the given fact that Pokemon that does endanger Skuntank's job/presence is relevant on every team as Ninja Dewott mentioned and there is little else it accomplishes besides those of its traditional jobs; checking a plethora of Psychic-types, Grass-types and revenge killing decently well.

Regarding Gardevoir, I agree that it's very worthy of an S-ranking by virtue of fact that it accomplishes just about everything that it normally wants to with a very scarce amount of threats to stand its path with so many great moves to make use of, such as Destiny Bond, Calm Mind, Signal Beam, Focus Blast, Will-o-Wisp, Trick, Wish, and , as even Skuntank, Gardevoir's biggest threat can be lured by a variety of ways (Destiny Bond, Will-o-Wisp, Life Orb Focus Blast). I honestly also am on the verge of rating Gardevoir's Substitute Calm Mind set as one of the top sweeping sets in the tier, as it does a magnificent job in applying pressure to a load of threats by the fact that it can find very many opportunities of setting up (with the aid of Trace), surprisingly powerful and bulky enough on the special side to gain even more turns of setup, which could potentially allow it to single handily win games at times, and is surprisingly unexpected, considering the many other things it could do otherwise. Trace on its own also allows it to check a large variety of Pokemon while also acting as an emergency check to Ludicolo and other weather sweepers.

Very much place-worthy of S-rank, as stated before, should be awarded to Gardevoir.

[sickweare]

Yes I am also gonna agree with Skuntank staying where it is. It really isn't all that good outside of checking psychic types, but that niche is often not fulfilled. It is a really good Pokemon though with psychics running around, but as the user above stated, it's only great in the metagame and not really the best of the best in the tier.

Also, with Gardy, S-rank actually would fit it perfectly. It is one of the best Pokemon in the tier right now with its main checks being Skuntank and Cacturne. It can rampage around the tier with a choice scarf or CM set and honestly, if you predict right, Gardy will grant you often more than a single KO. Gardy for S-rank.

Also, I want to know why Ludicolo is S-rank. Like, I'm not entirely debating, but I'm wondering why it is so good, but when I face it, it doesn't seem to work all the time. It could just be the players behind him, but I think that's interesting.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Skuntank can stay right where it is. Sure, it's good at checking Gardevoir and Musharna, but that's all the Skunk has got going for it. It's a revenge killer and all, and that's it. It's not amazing.

Also, I second Gardevoir for S-Rank. Let's take a look at the definition.

"Reserved for Pokemon who are amazing in the NU metagame."

Gardevoir is amazing. No duh.

"These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well."

Gardevoir can fill a lot of roles thanks to her vast movepool, almost as big as that of Smeargle/Mew/Absol. This, combined with her high overall stats, gives her the ability to do many things very effectively. She can be a powerful offensive Psychic-type, dealing heavy damage to the opposition. A support set is also possible with that high Special Defense, and Will-O-Wisp can burn physical attackers like Sawk and friends. She's can also serve as a WishPasser and cleric, despite that rather depressing HP stat, although that does compete with Audino. Dual Screens, of course, is possible too. Then there's also weather support, if you really want it, and Choice sets. Gardy can run many different sets, all can be used somewhat effectively.

"Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted."

I don't see much risk in using Gardevoir at all. With such a great movepool and good stats to boot, it's pretty easy to use and very versatile, and also a powerful Pokemon. With all that, there's much reward exerted, as Gardy will surely do a great job and won't fail to impress. A great sweeper too.

"Pokemon in this tier have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits."

This thing has only few flaws.

Flaws:

• Pursuit weakness
• Pisspoor Defense
• Meh Speed, albeit decent for NU

Thorough Mitigation:

• Vast movepool, even allowing it to deal with Skunk with Will-O-Wisp, etc
• High SpD, can burn physical attackers, patching up that poor Defense modestly
• Hits hard

Overall, Gardevoir is a great and versatile Pokemon in RU, possibly one of the best in NU.

Gardevoir qualifies for S-Rank.

[FLCL]

ludicolo down to a rank

ludicolo hasn't been as effective in this current metagame since the most dominant pokemon have gotten a lot faster with the departure of emboar and absol. it can't really keep up with the highly offensive metagame and lacks the useful resistances to fire and ice that its arch rival samurott provides. gardevoir, and sawsbuck have become increasingly popular—they both take advantage of either the rain that ludicolo sets up or the grass-type attacks that it fires off.

gurdurr down to b rank

musharna is the best pokemon in the tier right now, and it happens to be the best gurdurr counter available. every team will be prepared for it because of how big of a threat sawk is. powerful attackers such as samurott, braviary, or torterra can do huge amounts of damage to gurdurr before it can strike, making it hard for gurdurr to do much in a typical match. it can't really keep up with the new metagame.

lickilicky down to b rank

lickilicky is still great on full stall teams, but it has been surpassed as the best wish user in the tier by alomomola, who possesses regenerator, allowing it to pivot around without being worn down. additionally, it struggles to do anything outside of providing heal bell and wish support due to being under constant pressure by pokemon that it's supposed to wall, such as ludicolo or charizard. offensive sets take far too long to set up, and will be phazed out by defensive teams or threatened out by offensive ones.

metang up to b rank

metang does extremely well against a large portion of the tier, and is one of the best responses to musharna with toxic. it packs quite a punch with meteor mash and can set up stealth rocks to support the team. its main selling points are its great typing and massive bulk, and plays a lot like fellow eviolite user piloswine.

vileplume up to b rank

vileplume steps in amoonguss' spot quite nicely, having similar bulk and even more support options such as aromatherapy and leech seed. it also hits significantly harder than the mushroom, and deserves to be b rank for sure.

roselia in a rank

i was torn between nominating this thing to be put in a tier or b tier, but spikes are just too good in the current metagame. roselia can find many opportunities to set up against special attackers in the tier, being able to survive even super effective attacks with health to spare. it can also go on the offensive with its high special attack stat and grab surprise kills against the likes of golurk, piloswine, and exeggutor.

[Sweet Jesus]

I agree with everything flcl said except I'd see roselia in B tier.

-another thing that hinders ludi is the slow rise of t wave mushy.

-I remember gurdurr as the mvp of my most succesful team yet, but when I last tried him recently I was really disappointed. FLCL talked about mushy which is very true, but psychics in general are great in the tier.

-with roselia know in the tier and still very few spinners, licki just seems to screem set up on me ! Swords dance set is completely unnexistant really.

-Metang is boss, final point. In all seriousness, metang is one of those pokes that is negelcted because of it's lack of recovery but is in fact one of the pokes that walls the most things in the tier and he is not a sitting duck. Zangoose, cb bravairy, mushy and others are all walled by metang. While cincy gone takes away one of metang's niches, emboar and absol gone makes him that much harder to wallbreak.

- what flcl said for vileplume

-I'd say roselia is B, laying spikes is great, but imo garbo is much easier to fit in a team and roselia's typing is much better for physical defence than special defence with Regice, psychics and charizard being so threatening.

Other changes I would do:

Zangoose A rank

Yes this thing destroys, yes it's really not that hard to get the toxic orb activated and yes it's faster than most attackers in the tier, but this thing requires a shitload of prediction which is terrible when you're on a timer. Nearly every good team carries a normal resist and golurk takes this guy pretty freaking well. Most of all, zangoose's defensive presence is completely unnexistant. The only thing it can switch into is toxic and maybe shadow ball from a weakened misdreavus or the rare special drifblim. This makes him pretty hard to fit on a team.

vigoroth to C rank

most of what this guy can do miltank can too, with better stats movepool and abitlity and cow is more unpredictable. Only niche it has over cow is taunt which forces him to mono attack making him completely useless as long as opponent has a living ghost type. Miltank can even run scrappy if it prefers it to sap sipper.

Tangela to A rank

it has become the main physical wall with momo now that amoonguss is gone. It also walls sawk and offers similar attributes to vileplume but with regen.

I also agree with S rank gardy. The thing is just too strong and versatile and even skunk needs to watch out for will-o-wisp when switching in. In fact, nothing can safely switch in on this demon, heck even murkrow could eat a t bolt.

[Constantinipple]

yeah Gardevoir fits the description of S rank. pretty much everything has been said already so..

i also agree with Zangoose moving down to A rank. okay, it wrecks havoc against anything that doesnt resist its facade, 2HKOing even Alomomola and Tangela after rocks, meaning that they aren't a safe switch in. zangoose does a good job at eliminating things that are slower, and you are most likely going to have to sack something when he comes in, but he also has downsides that imo, are too big for him to stay in S rank. im gonna sum up two of his downsides and then give some thoughts.

1) Zangoose is quite frail, with non-efficient 73/60/60 defenses. therefore anything that is faster and packs some punch will most likely be revenge killing Zangoose. (things like scarf rotom, rapidash, electabuzz, sucker punch etc etc etc come to mind) things like gurdurr will also be able to revenge kill with mach punch, and a rampaging ludicolo is, of course, not stopped by Zangoose :)

2) toxic orb is also a bitch for him. this makes him vulnerable to numerous things, such as the aforementioned Gurdurr. it will make him easier to be revenge killed and easier to be worn down by the likes of Regirock. heck, even Ninjask could possibly stall him to death.

alright, so now i have a question for you guys. what is the most effective counter or check for Zangoose? im gonna do some calcs against certain pokemon that could act as a check when one on one, and then think of what those pokes should do in order to eliminate Zangoose. note that these 'scenarios' are, like i said, one on one. there are many other (and more likely) situations where you can sack something and revenge kill Zangoose. anyways:

Calcs & Situations

---

ZANGOOSE VS REGIROCK

note: Jolly Nature Zangoose is being used 83% of the time.

252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Clear Body Regirock (+Def): 20% - 24% (75 - 88 HP). Guaranteed 5HKO.

252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Clear Body Regirock (+Def): 46% - 55% (170 - 202 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 8% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

this means that Regirock isnt a safe switch into a predicted Adamant Close Combat when rocks are up. however, when Zangoose goes for Facade first, max/max Regirock can actually take one Close Combat, and then kill Zangoose of with Stone Edge, even with no investment. this is the worst scenario i can think of when max/max Regirock is in play. it could be that rocks aren't up on your side, or Zangoose might be neutral natured. in that case, regirock can safely switch in, take two CCs and Stone Edge him to death. also, this is a one on one situation, like i said earlier, zangoose is easy to be revenge killed!

0Atk Regirock (Neutral) Stone Edge vs 4HP/0Def -1 Zangoose (Neutral): 84% - 100% (244 - 288 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

provided that the situation above is the case, Zangoose will have its HP lowered to 82% percent (-6% Toxic after Facade, -12% Toxic after CC), meaning that Regirock can KO with Stone Edge, so Zangoose is eliminated. if Zangoose is neutral natured, the following damage will be dealt:

252Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose (Neutral) Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Sturdy Regirock (+Def): 42% - 50% (156 - 184 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

anyways, that's all the shit about Regirock vs Zangoose, moving on.

ZANGOOSE VS GURDURR

252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (+Atk) Facade vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Gurdurr (Neutral): 70% - 82% (262 - 310 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Toxic Boost poisoned Zangoose (Neutral) Facade vs 252HP/0Def Eviolite Gurdurr (Neutral): 64% - 75% (240 - 283 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Guts Gurdurr (+Atk) Mach Punch vs 4HP/0Def Zangoose (Neutral): 65% - 77% (188 - 224 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Gurdurr is not a safe switch in to Facade and cannot KO Zangoose with Mach Punch unless Zangoose has some prior damage. however, when something was just KO'd, you can bring Gurdurr in, Bulk Up once and kill Zangoose off. when Gurdurr is brought in after something is killed, he can just take a hit and then Drain Punch, recovering some health while KOing Zangoose. its personal preference really, if you would like to have a Bulk Up boost, then do so and kill him off with Mach Punch, if not, use Drain Punch.

Gurdurr and Regirock can thus be used as checks when they are at full health.

the above may have made Zangoose look tough to beat but these are just two bad case situations.

i think any NU player with a decent team and brain can beat Zangoose, whether the team is designed to counter Zangoose or not. don't get me wrong, im not saying that Zangoose is bad, he isnt bad by any means, but i just think that he isnt worthy of S rank.

edit: like SJ said, metang walls Zangoose 100% percent so he can also be used as a check/counter.

[Agent Dell]

Hmm... interesting nominations, especially Ludicolo and Zangoose, as a lot of NU players in general are very adamant about their placing within the S-ranking to begin with, so I suspect that there should be quite a debate here. I would like to get some high-level players to elaborate, regarding those two before I can completely negotiate with these decisions.

I'm going to have to disagree with Sweet Jesus on Roselia, however. While it is true that Garbodor is the more consistent Spikes user, that doesn't exactly indicate the fact of Garbodor outclassing Roselia. The reasoning behind this is while Garbodor has an easier time fitting into more teams and has more speed, what gives Roselia the cake once it finds its spot into a team is that Roselia turns out to become the better Pokemon overall and the more valuable team player than Garbodor, due to its better offensive presence, bulk, movepool so support itself, which allows it to deal moderately high damage to most Pokemon in general. The additional Grass typing very much comes in handy more-so than harm as well, as most checks to Roselia aren't too adapted to switching in on Roselia and it allows it to check most Water, Ground, and Electric types quite well, while at the same time giving it even more opportunities to setup hazards reliably.

With that, I support an A-rank for Roselia.

[celever]

I would actually go as far to say A-rank for torterra!
Basically the reason for this is because he can run loads of sets effectively, making it extremely versatile, and most of the sets he can use are great on lots of the tier.
For instance, he can run a great band set; wood hammer, EQ, stone edge and then something like iron head or outrage depending on your weaknesses. Aside from that, he can run a great bulky stealth rockers set; synthesis, rocks, wood hammer/EQ/Stone edge/Toxic, Wood hammer/EQ/stone edge/Protect (if you used toxic in other slot). He can even toxic stall on some physical walls with toxic, protect, synthesis, wood hammer/EQ.

So as you can see, torterra is an extremely versatile pokemon with every handy set having various options. The opponent will never know what to expect, and the stats it has makes it a worthy member on your team if you are stuck for options, and that is why I think Torterra for A!

[Aasgier]

A lot of things are proposed here. I'll keep it short: I agree with FLCL with everything he said about those Pokémon, though I see Metang even as a candidate for A-rank now Emboar and Absol are gone and Musharna rises in usage.

Zangoose down to A-rank: Agreed completely. No need to repeat Constantinipple, though it is worth noting that Regirock should not use Stone Edge, but Drain Punch against Zangoose for several reasons (same damage output due to Zangoose's fighting weakness, but 100% accuracy and recovery).

Also, teams with Regirock or Metang don't even need to sac something against Zangoose. They can just switch in.

I agree with SweetJesus about Vigoroth for C-rank and Tangela for A-rank respectively.

Torterra for A-rank... hm. Questionable, since it needs three attacks (STAB + Stone Edge) if it does not want to be walled. Without Woodhammer, opposing Torterra wall it, without Earthquake, Steels wall it, without Stone Edge, any double-type consisting of Bug/Grass/Flying walls it. It has a lot of support options, but these don't matter if Leavanny or Butterfree comes in for the kill. They will win even if Torterra has finished setting up Dual Screens. I suggest Torterra stays where it is. I'd say it is fine in B-rank.

[Adam Lambert]

I've been playing NU for a while now and I'm actually 12-0 on one of my alts, Finneon. I use a Rain Dance team. It happens to use Gardevoir, a Scarf variant, and I find Gardevoir to be dead weight in every match I play. I do not favor moving Gardevoir to S-Rank. Gardevoir does not pack a punch, the only thing I ever use Gardevoir for, honestly, is Tricking its held Scarf to a wall that could potentially ruin everything, say Roselia or Miltank. If not that, I use her to kill off a fighting-type, maybe Sawk. Gardevoir tends to need some support to be effective and S-rank implies it can fend for itself, which Gardevoir cannot. Gardevoir is perfect in A-rank.

That said, I would propose Zangoose moving down to A-rank for the simple fact that I don't understand why it's S-rank. I've played an astounding number of 2 Zangoose in my total of 20+ games in NU, and it has done nothing but die. I don't understand how a mon who is hardly used could possibly be S-ranked.

I also support Roselia being moved to A-rank. It has fantastic typing, great defenses, lasting longevity (With Synthesis or Rest), offensive presence, and, most importantly, an easier time switching in to set up Spikes.

This is where I suppose I could make an argument as to why Seismitoad could potentially be A-rank. With BW2, Seismitoad was graced with the amazing move Stealth Rock, arguably the best support move for any team. With SR, it can also utilize Rain Dance to make the deadly Ludicolo out-speed almost every mon in the NU tier under rain. It also boosts Samurott's STABs to make it even more fearsome. Coupled with these two fantastic support moves, Seismitoad has astounding typing, giving it many immunities and its only weakness, Grass. Seismitoad also, with this moveset, boosts its Spe into regions where it can out-speed many popular mons in NU's metagame today, while OHKO astounding numbers with its rain-boosted STAB Hydro Pump.

[Constantinipple]

Yea, thanks for catching that, Aasgier. Not every Regirock carries Drain Punch, but the player should use it if it does.

That said, I would propose Zangoose moving down to A-rank for the simple fact that I don't understand why it's S-rank. I've played an astounding number of 2 Zangoose in my total of 20+ games in NU, and it has done nothing but die. I don't understand how a mon who is hardly used could possibly be S-ranked.

an argument based on a pokemons usage is invalid, altough i agree with zangoose going to A rank. this topic is to determine the viability of a pokemon in NU, usage has got little to say about the pokemon itself but the popularity.

[Adam Lambert]

Originally Posted by Fat Constantinipple

an argument based on a pokemons usage is invalid, altough i agree with zangoose going to A rank. this topic is to determine the viability of a pokemon in NU, usage has got little to say about the pokemon itself but the popularity.

Usage implies it fits nicely on many teams.

[Constantinipple]

Originally Posted by Fat OP

Rules
Post intellegently; no one will listen to you if you post random blabber that isn't supported by sufficient evidence.
Do not insult users just because you disagree with them.
Usage statistics do not determine viability.

[Aasgier]

@Adam Lambert:

| 2 | Golurk | 19351 | 14.399% | 16735 | 15.154%
| 4 | Gardevoir | 16242 | 12.086% | 12885 | 11.668% |
| 28 | Zangoose | 8129 | 6.049% | 6321 | 5.724% |

No Pokémon in NU, has more than 15% usage. That being said, even Golurk is in only one out of seven teams. Zangoose is in one out of eighteen teams. That difference isn't that big, and shows that the NU metagame has a lot of possible options since Zangoose is at #28 in December usage statistics.
I didn't mention the most-used Pokémon, Cinccino, since it got kicked to RU, but even then, it had barely more than 15% usage as well.

Also, if your Gardevoir does not pack a punch, you are doing something wrong. It actually makes me think that you clicked Kirlia by accident.
Gardevoir is the most fearsome special attacker in NU at this moment, bar Charizard in the sun, and it has so many moves in its gown, both to support the team and to set up and attack, that you will never know for sure what it is going to do.

[Adam Lambert]

Aasgier, those usage statistics could argued to be invalid for the simple reason that many mons who are now banned from the tier were in for a majority of the time. That aside, if I must give reasons as to why Zangoose just doesn't fit well in the S-rank category anymore, other than the blatantly obvious, I will.

90 base Spe, though still pretty high, is practically the average base Spe seen in NU. I would agree with Zangoose being S-ranked if its ability raised Spe rather than its already fantastic Atk. That being said, Zangoose really doesn't have time to set up a much needed Swords Dance, what with its defenses being terrible and Spe being so average. I see it being like Lucario in OU, where it has to rely too heavily on its priority. Even then, QA fails to OHKO many pokemon who are faster than it, most obvious being Miltank and Tauros. Then we have the bane of its power, Toxic Boost, which, though could be seen as a blessing, is, also, a curse. It limits the potential of its sweeps and makes it even easier to revenge kill. Zangoose looks astounding on paper, I give it that, but when actually put in battle, I find it to be a little lackluster.

As for Gardevoir, I definitely use her, and she definitely doesn't do anything people say she does. Perhaps I'm using her incorrectly, however, her being proposed of being an S-rank mon, it's hard to believe she could be misused, no?

[FireMage]

I'll throw my opinion on some of these nominations

FLCL's Nomination -- Ludi --> A Rank
I still use Ludicolo and dont get me wrong, it's still a fantastic mon. I easily find times in which I can bring it in, and start wreaking havoc. I still think it's viable, in the sense that it can sweep once it's counters/checks have been removed. It's got that annoying weakness to Flying which (Unless Rain is up) and to a lesser extent, Bug (Seriously, It's like a Ninjask swarm from what I've seen, and Signal beam on things to aim at Psychics) just makes me think, why would I use this over say, Samurott? (I'd nominate Samurott for A rank too - It dies far too quickly for me to get any use out of it (Maybe I'm just using it wrong)).

Ludi's positive traits outweigh the bad. It achieves Good coverage. Has semi-reliable recovery (In Stab Giga Drain) and can pull of a myriad of sets which can be tailored to suit your teams needs.

Imo - Ludicolo Stays in S rank- It's still a very strong mon that rips holes in teams and can still pull off a late game cleanup. (Which there are a few teams that are still ridiculously weak to Ludi)


JoshuaMunoz / Ewil 's Nomination for Skuntank to S-Rank

I think Skuntank is a very good mon in this meta. Even after the initial hype of "Psychics everywhere". It has very useful traits which make it a fantastic mon. However it's heavily reliant on mind games to function effectively, one wrong move means the Pokémon either gets away scot free, or you're going to take some damage. That being said, it has been a nice revenge killer in some situations.

Skuntank --> A rank

[sickweare]

@Adam, Gardevoir can most definitely fend for itself. Sure it has trouble with special walls and Skuntank, but Musharna has the same problem and it is (undisputedly) S-rank. Gardevoir is extremely powerful and very versatile and idk what was going on, but Gardevoir is one of the best revenge killers with Choice scarf attached. It also crushes with its sub+CM set and I'm sorry you haven't experienced her being awesome yet.

The truth of the matter is that there is little risk, high reward for S-tier Pokemon, but if you misuse any Pokemon they aren't going to be S-rank in your mind. Any Pokemon can be misused, no matter how viable they are. Gardevoir is really, really good imo, and now that Absol is gone it has an even better chance to be even better. She is literally something you can slap on the team and she will help you out a lot, so far as you're using her correctly.


Omg so many proposals.

[Aasgier]

Originally Posted by Fat Adam Lambert

*Zangoose rant*

If you had read one of my previous posts, you would see I fully agree with Zangoose going to A rank, albeit for different reasons. I just said your usage argument was invalid because NU has a very versatile metagame with countless different options. You are right at the point that you say those statistics are somewhat invalid with the tier changes, but I was talking more about the actual hight of the percentages and how versatile NU is, not so much about actual usage of certain Pokémon. Offcourse, it will mix up a bit with the tier changes, but really, I don't expect a Pokémon to see a sudden 17% usage - only Golurk is really in range to do so.

As for Gardevoir, I definitely use her, and she definitely doesn't do anything people say she does. Perhaps I'm using her incorrectly, however, her being proposed of being an S-rank mon, it's hard to believe she could be misused, no?

Every Pokémon can be misused. And other Pokémon can run a good set, but still fail because they aren't working well with your other teammembers, for example, offensive Gardevoir sets and offensive Ludicolo sets don't like to be on the same team.

[Wobble]

Honestly Gardevoir really doesn't struggle with too many walls.

Gardevoir is so bulky that the very few things it doesnt 2HKO with a Life Orb struggle to do anything back to it.

After SR, you are basically talking about Metang getting a Toxic off on it, Max/Max Ampharos, Grumpig and Flareon.


And out of all of these mons the only ones that are even used are Metang and Ampharos and Ampharos usually uses other spreads.

[Adam Lambert]

Originally Posted by Fat Aasgier

Every Pokémon can be misused. And other Pokémon can run a good set, but still fail because they aren't working well with your other teammembers, for example, offensive Gardevoir sets and offensive Ludicolo sets don't like to be on the same team.

That makes sense, because I use offensive Ludi and Gard