NU Viability Ranking

[Aasgier]

That, and manual sand set by Regirock or Gigalith on a semi-sand team.
I dunno if that's enough to make Stoutland D-rank though, because it is easily outclassed by other Normal-types.

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat Aasgier

That, and manual sand set by Regirock or Gigalith on a semi-sand team.
I dunno if that's enough to make Stoutland D-rank though, because it is easily outclassed by other Normal-types.

Manual sand is more trouble then its worth. Why waste two turns setting up sand and bringing Stoutland in when in that time Tauros would have already have done its work?

[Aasgier]

Manual sand also provides residual damage to an opposing team and a SDef boost to rock type. I can see a manual sand team working in NU...

[Punchshroom]

I can't. The turns you'd use to set up Sandstorm would cost you valuable momentum, the amount of time you would spend trying to take advantage of Sandstorm are too short and/or just not worth it (SS is primarily defensive, with Stoutland being the SOLE exception, which isn't enough), and you'd be slaughtered by the more efficient Rain and Sun teams (the latter which I feel is stronger due to more/better abusers).

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat Aasgier

Manual sand also provides residual damage to an opposing team and a SDef boost to rock type. I can see a manual sand team working in NU...

I just don't see sand as worth it. If it is viable, Stoutland would be the only reason why. Most Rock types in NU are also ground (Golem, the.main one), giving them easily exploitable weaknesses, and most Rock types are pyshical anyways. I will test it out, but 8 turns of Sand doesn't seem worth it. Sun and Rain are viable because there are so many abilities to abuse them, and moves are powered up. Sand does not do this.

Edit : I looked over again, and Golem is the only rock ground type. However, the other rock types, bar Cradily and Regirock, will not be able to really abuse the Special Defense boost

[Magcargo 2]

I can't. The turns you'd use to set up Sandstorm would cost you valuable momentum, the amount of time you would spend trying to take advantage of Sandstorm are too short and/or just not worth it (SS is primarily defensive, with Stoutland being the SOLE exception, which isn't enough), and you'd be slaughtered by the more efficient Rain and Sun teams (the latter which I feel is stronger due to more/better abusers).

It's worth noting that Klang can use sanndstorm and keep momentum with volt switch. Stoutland at best seems D Rank as like i said before, It's the jack of all trades, master of none. Stoutland will rarely survive 8 turns, so it usually will do it's job in the match. High power moves are a plus as well. Also people should be disscussing these too:

Well the main reason for it's common weaknesses making it A Rank were Absol and cinncino, which are gone. Also Golurk has a powerful EQ and achieves almost perfect coverage with ice punch/Stone edge.Also it's Focus punch is among the most powerful moves in the tier.

Also roselia should be added to B Rank. Access to spikes and t spikes give it a massive niche as a user of entry hazards. Also, because it is an NFE, roselia can use eviolte to increase its bulk. Aromatherapy alllows it to be an effective cleric and it can hit quite hard thx to a good base special attack of 100.

[sickweare]

Manual sand is way too hard to get up. I've tested it out, and sometimes it gets up, but all of the summoners are way too slow. Once it's up Stoutland is obviously unstoppable, but only for the 5-8 turns. The only other thing I think Stoutland is good for is a bulky phazer which I've used to some success. Enough success to make it D-rank, but I'm not gonna push the subject.

Let's face it; without Hippopotas, there is no real good use of sandstorm in this meta, although I wish there was, because so many Pokemon would be more useful thanks to it. Unfortunately I don't see that happening anytime soon, so the hidden gems such as Stoutland and, to an extent, Drilbur along with other interesting sand abusers like Gigalith will have to tough it out on their own.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Stoutland should be C or D imo because it's ParaShuffler set is really good, and that's probably it's only niche over the other Normal-types. He has nice Defenses to abuse that set, and I really like it because he's the best ParaShuffler in the tier imo.

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat celever

Delcatty is a better parashuffler imo, it has normal type thunder wave for ground types.

Delcatty is horrible. Stoutland at least hits decently and decent bulk

[Magcargo 2]

Delcatty is a better parashuffler imo, it has normal type thunder wave for ground types.

Arbok and stoutland are better parashufflers as they both have bulk. Anyway, I would like to say stoutland is D Rank. Like Dusknoir in ru, being the jack of all trades, master of none kind of normal type isn't the best trait to have in a tier full of normal types. Stoutland has pretty good coverage moves like superpower and crunch, but faces competition from zangoose and kanga for the role of an attacker. However it's main draw lies in the ability to be somewhat unnpredictable.

[ryanr554]

I would like to nominate Butterfree for B Rank.

I have been using him to great effect in NU lately as a sashed lead and I gotta say, double powder is a fantastic set. It actually stops many leads from setting up SR with its decent base 70 speed which not only helps butterfree itself, but the rest of the team as well. Then you have the option to stun spore a switch in or just plain out U-turn to gain momentum.

This is not the only thing Butterfree can do either, it has the ability to actually sweep (although it doesn't happen very often) with tinted lense and a fantastic bug stab.

I know it has its shortcomings with the SR weakness and sap sipper Pokemon running around to block its sleep powder but I find that most of the time, it is a great asset to my team and is definitely one of the more useful mons I have used in NU.

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat ryanr554

I would like to nominate Butterfree for B Rank.

I have been using him to great effect in NU lately as a sashed lead and I gotta say, double powder is a fantastic set. It actually stops many leads from setting up SR with its decent base 70 speed which not only helps butterfree itself, but the rest of the team as well. Then you have the option to stun spore a switch in or just plain out U-turn to gain momentum.

This is not the only thing Butterfree can do either, it has the ability to actually sweep (although it doesn't happen very often) with tinted lense and a fantastic bug stab.

I know it has its shortcomings with the SR weakness and sap sipper Pokemon running around to block its sleep powder but I find that most of the time, it is a great asset to my team and is definitely one of the more useful mons I have used in NU.

Going to have to disagree. I love using Butterfree, but it does not deserve B Rank

Double powder is good for not letting rocks on the field, but Taunt does the same thing, better (sleep powder can still miss, even with compound eyes). Plus, Lump Berry Golem still gets rocks up, or flat out KO with Rock Blast, and get rocks the next turn.

If Butterfree did Become B, it would be because of Quiver Dance set. It is very good, putting it solidly in C, but Butterfree's frailness, and weakness to Sleath Rock, means it is easily revenge killed. Plus you need to rely on Sleep Powder HITTING to set up.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat ryanr554

I would like to nominate Butterfree for B Rank.

I have been using him to great effect in NU lately as a sashed lead and I gotta say, double powder is a fantastic set. It actually stops many leads from setting up SR with its decent base 70 speed which not only helps butterfree itself, but the rest of the team as well. Then you have the option to stun spore a switch in or just plain out U-turn to gain momentum.

This is not the only thing Butterfree can do either, it has the ability to actually sweep (although it doesn't happen very often) with tinted lense and a fantastic bug stab.

I know it has its shortcomings with the SR weakness and sap sipper Pokemon running around to block its sleep powder but I find that most of the time, it is a great asset to my team and is definitely one of the more useful mons I have used in NU.

I agree. With a 4x fighting and grass resistence, butterfree can switch into most choice locked fighting and grass moves. It can setup on the likes of metang and alomomola and sweep some teams. The double powder has always been effective, inspiring darkia's double status set. However weakness to SR really hinders its effectiveness.

[FortressDoor]

Interesting to note that Sawk still 2HKO's with Close Combat. (Choice Banded, but still). Butterfree is a bit too frail to be B Rank IMO

[Ashley11]

I would like to nominate Grumpig to C Rank.

...

---

According to this thread, C rank is...

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Well, Grumpig is no D rank pokemon. It has a great ability, Thick Fat, which seperates this pokemon from other psychics. It also has taunt as well, which could be very useful. It has notable defenses, being 80/65/110. You might say that this pokemon is totally outclassed by musharna, or gardevoir even, well your wrong.

With a combination of good special bulk, the lovely resistances that Thick Fat provides, and a variety of support moves, Grumpig makes an excellent special tank and team supporter. It has access to Heal Bell, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, and Reflect, as well as trick. This pokemon might be less bulky than musharna, but it has a lot more flexibility as far as movesets go, which gives this pokemon an advantage. Heres a few sets that could be used with this pokemon.

Grumpig@Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Calm
Evs: 252 HP 252 SpA 4 SpD
Taunt
Thunder Wave/Focus Blast
Heal Bell
Psychic

This set utilizes grumpig's great bulk, and support moves, making it a very good supporter to a team. With taunt, Grumpig can keep things from setting up on it. With Heal Bell you can help get rid of status problems your teamate might have. Thunder Wave is good for stopping fast pokemon that are a threat. You could use Focus Blast though for more coverage. Psychic is there of course for the stab psychic type attack for a bit of damage. Oh, and did I mention that Grumpig is quite fast for a bulky supporter? It has a Base speed of 80, so that is definitely a big help and advantage over musharna, and it ties with gardevoir as well.

Sadly, aside from being a support pokemon, grumpig is outclassed in every other role which is why it can only be C rank at most. That doesnt mean it is D rank worthy though. It is very good at the one role it can perform good, which is what makes it C rank, and it doesnt need much support to put on your team since it does its own supporting. This pokemon definitely has a spot on some teams.

Also, about the butterfree moving to Rank B, i disagree. It has one notable flaw that makes it C rank. That is its horrid weakness to stealth rocks, and with so few spinners in NU, its kind of hard to use butterfree effectively, unless you have a lot of support of course.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat Ashley11

I would like to nominate Grumpig to C Rank.

...

---

According to this thread, C rank is...

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Well, Grumpig is no D rank pokemon. It has a great ability, Thick Fat, which seperates this pokemon from other psychics. It also has taunt as well, which could be very useful. It has notable defenses, being 80/65/110. You might say that this pokemon is totally outclassed by musharna, or gardevoir even, well your wrong.

With a combination of good special bulk, the lovely resistances that Thick Fat provides, and a variety of support moves, Grumpig makes an excellent special tank and team supporter. It has access to Heal Bell, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, and Reflect, as well as trick. This pokemon might be less bulky than musharna, but it has a lot more flexibility as far as movesets go, which gives this pokemon an advantage. Heres a few sets that could be used with this pokemon.

Grumpig@Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Calm
Evs: 252 HP 252 SpA 4 SpD
Taunt
Thunder Wave/Focus Blast
Heal Bell
Psychic

This set utilizes grumpig's great bulk, and support moves, making it a very good supporter to a team. With taunt, Grumpig can keep things from setting up on it. With Heal Bell you can help get rid of status problems your teamate might have. Thunder Wave is good for stopping fast pokemon that are a threat. You could use Focus Blast though for more coverage. Psychic is there of course for the stab psychic type attack for a bit of damage. Oh, and did I mention that Grumpig is quite fast for a bulky supporter? It has a Base speed of 80, so that is definitely a big help and advantage over musharna, and it ties with gardevoir as well.

Sadly, aside from being a support pokemon, grumpig is outclassed in every other role which is why it can only be C rank at most. That doesnt mean it is D rank worthy though. It is very good at the one role it can perform good, which is what makes it C rank, and it doesnt need much support to put on your team since it does its own supporting. This pokemon definitely has a spot on some teams.

Also, about the butterfree moving to Rank B, i disagree. It has one notable flaw that makes it C rank. That is its horrid weakness to stealth rocks, and with so few spinners in NU, its kind of hard to use butterfree effectively, unless you have a lot of support of course.

Grumpig is an interesting choice. I have never used it, but it seems good on paper. It seems like a great wall because of thick fat. Resistences to ice and fire are great benefits to thick fat, and a psychic resistence is a godsend in the psychic infested metagame. Heal bell is another selling point it has over it's psychic bretheren. As a cleric however, Grumpig faces competition with misdrevous, but it's resistences really help it. I am completely fine with it going to C-rank.

[ryanr554]

Originally Posted by Fat Ashley11

Also, about the butterfree moving to Rank B, i disagree. It has one notable flaw that makes it C rank. That is its horrid weakness to stealth rocks, and with so few spinners in NU, its kind of hard to use butterfree effectively, unless you have a lot of support of course.

Other Pokemon in B rank also have the same crippling weakness to stealth rock such as Charizard and Articuno which are arguably easier to stop than Butterfree.

If Butterfree even gets off one sleep powder, it has effectively neutered a Pokemon for the entire match while there are things that wall articuno and charizard. There is not much you can do to stop a 97.5% accurate sleep move unless you have a sap sipper Pokemon or something with vital Spirit. In that case, it is easy to just u-turn out.
This is not to mention that common sap sipper Pokemon commonly run other abilities such as Miltanks thick fat or Sawsbucks Chlorophyll.

I have already mentioned that Butterfree commonly stops other players from getting their rocks up as well.

[ADHLAS]

Yeah, I'd also support Grumpig going to C, although I'd like to mention Whirlwind as its primary mechanism to avoid Skuntank Pursuiting it to death. In fact, that's what I'd argue is its primary thing that distinguishes itself from other Psychics and ghosts other than Thick Fat: none of the others can phase, thus giving Grumpig quite a nice spot on certain stall teams. It faces competition with Lickilicky in this role, but Whirlwind bypasses Subs although is shut down by taunt; vice versa for Lickilicky's D-tail.

Edit: Oh, and I have my own nomination: Wormadam-T for D rank: it's one of the very few fully-evolved steel types in the tier, and one of the even fewer that doesn't pack a weakness to fighting. Its defenses aren't stellar, and its offenses are non-existent, but its resistances allow it to be used. It has absolutely no recovery (despite a PS! bug showing that it learns Synthesis...) but it can almost always guarantee rocks, plus a semi-sturdy physical wall to stop the flying-types. It's not very good, but it's certainly better than E rank.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat ADHLAS

Yeah, I'd also support Grumpig going to C, although I'd like to mention Whirlwind as its primary mechanism to avoid Skuntank Pursuiting it to death. In fact, that's what I'd argue is its primary thing that distinguishes itself from other Psychics and ghosts other than Thick Fat: none of the others can phase, thus giving Grumpig quite a nice spot on certain stall teams. It faces competition with Lickilicky in this role, but Whirlwind bypasses Subs although is shut down by taunt; vice versa for Lickilicky's D-tail.

Edit: Oh, and I have my own nomination: Wormadam-T for D rank: it's one of the very few fully-evolved steel types in the tier, and one of the even fewer that doesn't pack a weakness to fighting. Its defenses aren't stellar, and its offenses are non-existent, but its resistances allow it to be used. It has absolutely no recovery (despite a PS! bug showing that it learns Synthesis...) but it can almost always guarantee rocks, plus a semi-sturdy physical wall to stop the flying-types. It's not very good, but it's certainly better than E rank.

Being a steel type is enough to give wormdam-T a niche. While it is the worst steel type, it has the least weaknesses of all of the useable steel types. It certainly is a D-rank pokemon. It's sole weakness can be migated with a water type. Medicore stats hinder its effectiveness however.

[Strategywin]

Tangela to A. Why is alomolaoao higher? synthesis, higher spa, better special defense, etc.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

Alomomola has Wish, access to Leftovers, and a better HP stat. It can take Special hits, something that Tangela can't do. Alo also has a better typing. Tangela should stay B.

[FortressDoor]

Originally Posted by Fat ryanr554

Other Pokemon in B rank also have the same crippling weakness to stealth rock such as Charizard and Articuno which are arguably easier to stop than Butterfree.

If Butterfree even gets off one sleep powder, it has effectively neutered a Pokemon for the entire match while there are things that wall articuno and charizard. There is not much you can do to stop a 97.5% accurate sleep move unless you have a sap sipper Pokemon or something with vital Spirit. In that case, it is easy to just u-turn out.
This is not to mention that common sap sipper Pokemon commonly run other abilities such as Miltanks thick fat or Sawsbucks Chlorophyll.

I have already mentioned that Butterfree commonly stops other players from getting their rocks up as well.

Did I just read that Charizard is more easily stopped than Butterfree?

Charizard is spamming Fire Blasts, without having to boost, and killing things. Specs Fire Blast in sun, with Solar Power, OHKO's Lickylicky. Without fail.

Charizard has okish bulk. Butterfree is checked by anything with priority (bar Mach Punch), can take a hit the boosted hit (which is quite a bit), or outspeeds (be it scarfed or something)

For your last point, Lum Berry Golem says hi.

[Starships]

Originally Posted by Fat ryanr554

This is not to mention that common sap sipper Pokemon commonly run other abilities such as Miltanks thick fat or Sawsbucks Chlorophyll.

I have already mentioned that Butterfree commonly stops other players from getting their rocks up as well.

Sawsbuck should always run Sap Sipper unless it's in the sun in which case that's when you use Chlorophyll. The sleep powder immunity and added attack is just too great to avoid for an ability that won't work unless the opponent is using sun. Sun teams however aren't overly common meaning almost all of the time Sawsbuck will be running Sap Sipper, js.

Anyway on the other point, there's other Pokemon that can do it better as people have said. Taunt Samurott forces switches against everything other than Probo which can Volt Switch out, Mold Breaker Sawk and even Fraxure do the same - making SR setters afraid of staying in, and can definitely threaten them, whereas if Sleep Powder fails you're dead. Even a smart player would send out something else for Butterfree to sleep first, then send in Golem if it doesn't run Lum and kill it with Rock Blast, if it's Piloswine, then Icicle Spear can kill it without it even 2HKOing, if it's Probopass then Butterfree has to set up a lot to be able to do damage on it - and it can just Volt Switch out and go to something faster/scarfed. Bastiodon can just Toxic/Roar it, assuming it doesn't carry Substitute, even so the latter can fix it. As mentioned many scarfers can outspeed after one Quiver Dance etc. It's good when it works and can set up on something, but there's easily a lot of things that can stop it from sweeping a team. I love Butterfree but there's easily a lot of ways to play around it compared to the other SR-weak mons that are generally faster and have more immediate firepower.

[sickweare]

Originally Posted by Fat Ashley11

I would like to nominate Grumpig to C Rank.

...

---

According to this thread, C rank is...

Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the NU metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in NU. C rank Pokemon tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.

Well, Grumpig is no D rank pokemon. It has a great ability, Thick Fat, which seperates this pokemon from other psychics. It also has taunt as well, which could be very useful. It has notable defenses, being 80/65/110. You might say that this pokemon is totally outclassed by musharna, or gardevoir even, well your wrong.

With a combination of good special bulk, the lovely resistances that Thick Fat provides, and a variety of support moves, Grumpig makes an excellent special tank and team supporter. It has access to Heal Bell, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Light Screen, and Reflect, as well as trick. This pokemon might be less bulky than musharna, but it has a lot more flexibility as far as movesets go, which gives this pokemon an advantage. Heres a few sets that could be used with this pokemon.

Grumpig@Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
Nature: Calm
Evs: 252 HP 252 SpA 4 SpD
Taunt
Thunder Wave/Focus Blast
Heal Bell
Psychic

This set utilizes grumpig's great bulk, and support moves, making it a very good supporter to a team. With taunt, Grumpig can keep things from setting up on it. With Heal Bell you can help get rid of status problems your teamate might have. Thunder Wave is good for stopping fast pokemon that are a threat. You could use Focus Blast though for more coverage. Psychic is there of course for the stab psychic type attack for a bit of damage. Oh, and did I mention that Grumpig is quite fast for a bulky supporter? It has a Base speed of 80, so that is definitely a big help and advantage over musharna, and it ties with gardevoir as well.

Sadly, aside from being a support pokemon, grumpig is outclassed in every other role which is why it can only be C rank at most. That doesnt mean it is D rank worthy though. It is very good at the one role it can perform good, which is what makes it C rank, and it doesnt need much support to put on your team since it does its own supporting. This pokemon definitely has a spot on some teams.

Also, about the butterfree moving to Rank B, i disagree. It has one notable flaw that makes it C rank. That is its horrid weakness to stealth rocks, and with so few spinners in NU, its kind of hard to use butterfree effectively, unless you have a lot of support of course.

Omg srsly I nominated this so long ago and it got forgotten

Yes, seriously Grumpig belongs in C-rank if you know me you know my argument I swear. But yeah, thick fat makes Grumpig really freackin good at checking Charizard and Piloswine (even with low defense).

I also have to say Butterfree belongs in C-rank because it's very niche but has a really, really cool niche. Unfortunately, she's so easily stopped aas tehre are many ways to play around her shenanigans. SR, for instance, destroys her, and she lacks any reliable recovery :/

EDIT: Wat butterfree gets roost I totally knew that

[ryanr554]

Originally Posted by Fat Starships

Anyway on the other point, there's other Pokemon that can do it better as people have said. Taunt Samurott forces switches against everything other than Probo which can Volt Switch out, Mold Breaker Sawk and even Fraxure do the same - making SR setters afraid of staying in, and can definitely threaten them, whereas if Sleep Powder fails you're dead. Even a smart player would send out something else for Butterfree to sleep first, then send in Golem if it doesn't run Lum and kill it with Rock Blast, if it's Piloswine, then Icicle Spear can kill it without it even 2HKOing, if it's Probopass then Butterfree has to set up a lot to be able to do damage on it - and it can just Volt Switch out and go to something faster/scarfed. Bastiodon can just Toxic/Roar it, assuming it doesn't carry Substitute, even so the latter can fix it. As mentioned many scarfers can outspeed after one Quiver Dance etc. It's good when it works and can set up on something, but there's easily a lot of things that can stop it from sweeping a team. I love Butterfree but there's easily a lot of ways to play around it compared to the other SR-weak mons that are generally faster and have more immediate firepower.

I was saying this in response to someome saying Butterfree gets ruined by rocks. I am not saying it is the best Pokemon in NU that prevents rocks being set up, I am just saying it can do it effectively. Also, the different being with Butterfree is that even if the SR setter switches out, you still get a free sleep powder off on something and can easily u-turn on the switch to gain momentum.

As for Sawsbuck, a well timed Bug Buzz can flat out OHKO it and it's not very difficult to predict the switch. That leaves Miltank as the only common user of Sap Sipper who commonly uses Thick Fat or Scrappy anyway.

Also Butterfree does get Roost as a reliable recovery move but I doubt many people will be using it anyway.