np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[yee]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

"Broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," argument is a terrible logic that's been bounced around here. If the metagame is balanced and diverse, then it's not broken! To me, "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," simply is an excuse to ban top threats that you don't want to face anymore. You should play UU, because you will never be satisfied with the power level of BW OU (esp if you think Kyu-B is "broken stuff" -_____-). We aren't gonna dumb it down for ya.

I am repeating for the last time that me and the "many others" are not banning things because we are annoyed to face them, we see them as broken things that cannot exist in a balanced metagame. We have given the reasoning behind this, and anyone thinking Kyurem-B is broken stuff has their reasons too. If this has to be repeated again then obviously this forum has some shortcomings.

[chaos 9]

Just adding my two cents, I have seen relatively few KyuB's in this metagame. He seems to be great with team support, but so are lots of threats in OU. His stats seem insane, but he is easily dealt with, and in my opinion there are better choices for dragons which outspeed him, have better movepools, or better boosting options.

However, I have to say that laddering to reqs is highly tedious. The offensive explosive nature of the metagame dominated by rain and HO teams is highly stale and boring. Crits are magnified to the point where one crit decides a game due to the fagility and speed creep in most teams. I've come across scarf Tornadus-T multiple times. Good God, if that's not insane speed creep, I don't know what is. Good luck running stall.

That said, I don't think KyuB is broken. It just adds to the slippery slope of a metagame that is quickly becoming a speed and power arms race.

[Pocket]

ZEHAHAHAHA, Lavos, have you been reading what other users have posted? They said Kyurem-B is far from broken - unless your "fix" is to ban everything remotely good in OU like RP Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Latios, Volcarona, Salamence, Dragonite, etc etc etc, I cannot fathom how you ever reached the conclusion of Kyu-B as "broken stuff."

If anything, Kyurem-B is an exemplar of how bad typing can totally ruin one's physical bulk no matter how impressive the stats (Fighting-, Dragon-, Steel-, and Rock-type weakness isn't a good formula for physical bulk, lmao), and how limited movepool can totally ruin one's potential to overpower the metagame (95 base Spe would be terrific... if it had Dragon Dance).

You are not the only one trying to "fix this metagame" - so Idk where you were going with that lol.

I edit posts when it's not worth cluttering the thread with Pocket's posts / to help answer simple questions / warn people without bumping a thread or infracting people, etc. No, the only person behaving like jerk right now is you.

yee: Define balanced metagame. Also notice that I never said the current meta is perfect, so keep that in mind when responding. Please don't blame the forum just because people don't agree with you.

[PDC]

woah guys whats with all the love

I really rather continue the testing, and by a longshot too. I mean Kyurem-B is, as it stands in my eyes, not broken. Although I guess you could argue that it is because of the bulk / power / other stuff it is in no way a broken threat in the metagame today. I really don't think we should reset the unaban even when we take care of the "broken stuff" later on, as even with everything running around I feel it should stay a lot longer than the real broken stuff will stay.

[Lavos Spawn]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

ZEHAHAHAHA, Lavos, have you been reading what other users have posted? They said Kyurem-B is far from broken - unless your "fix" is to ban everything remotely good in OU like RP Landorus, Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, Latios, Volcarona, Salamence, Dragonite, etc etc etc, I cannot fathom how you ever reached the conclusion of Kyu-B as "broken stuff."

Yeah, I read other people's posts, unlike some. There hasn't been an overwhelming consensus that Kyurem-B is broken, seems like more of a mixed reaction to me, and of course I'm going to value my opinion over a lot of others because I've likely had more experience in this metagame than they have. All the Pokemon you randomly list off aren't anything I would consider banning, I actually voted to unban Chomp, so uh yeah. The stuff you don't list that do deserve bans are Genesect, Politoed, and Ninetales, along with Kyu-B, of course...170 base Attack being a bit too much for OU.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

If anything, Kyurem-B is an exemplar of how bad typing can totally ruin one's physical bulk no matter how impressive the stats (Fighting-, Dragon-, Steel-, and Rock-type weakness isn't a good formula for physical bulk, lmao), and how limited movepool can totally ruin one's potential to overpower the metagame (95 base Spe would be terrific... if it had Dragon Dance).

Yeah, stuff lacking physical bulk that still resists Water, Grass, Electric, etc., and still has great special bulk can potentially still make it in this metagame. Example...hmmm...how about Latios? Or maybe Chansey/Blissey? Please...this argument gets you nowhere. Kyurem-B gets at least one kill, every single game you use it.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

You are not the only one trying to "fix this metagame" - so Idk where you were going with that lol.

Yeah I understand other people have good intentions but when they're flat-out wrong about the majority of things they're posting about it doesn't make for a healthy metagame if they're contributing to the tiering process.

[Scarfwynaut]

I have been following this argument closely even though I have yet to play in the suspect test. I think Lady Alex is right on the money of how in OU tier suspects should of taken priority over letting pokemon down from Ubers. Even if Kyurem-B would balance out other threats (which it doesn't), in my view this would be like bringing down Giratina to counter Blaziken, its totally backwards thinking. I understand why this decision was made though, PO has had it out for a while and we needed to make sure if we were right at all in banning it. There also seems to be a list of pokemon the coucil wants to test again in OU (Garchomp, Excadrill, Thundurus), that has been in planning since July.

That being said, I still don't think Kyurem-B is broken from what I have seen and read, it just seems like another moronic outrage spamming dragon that can't even set up. Unless you allow it to, Kyurem-B shouldn't be able to kill anything without using outrage, then its easily checked. All I will have to do is run a check on my stall team (my thinking Scarf-Garchomp).

Since Kyrurem-B doesn't seem to have any major impact on the meta, I don't see the need for all this hate flying around. Lets just finish this round, and next time before we decide to try something out in OU, lets make sure OU is ok before we mess with it.

just my 2-cents as a lurker of this thread

[Lady Alex]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

That being said, I still don't think Kyurem-B is broken from what I have seen and read, it just seems like another moronic outrage spamming dragon that can't even set up. Unless you allow it to, Kyurem-B shouldn't be able to kill anything without using outrage, then its easily checked.

You would be surprised at how dangerous mixed sub sets are too. It's very potent and the things that normally check it (think skarmory and ferrothorn) Get wrecked by its mixed sets, especially in hail. If I were going to run Kyurem-B, it definitely wouldn't be an outrage spamming set. Of course, CB outrage hits like a truck and can be really annoying with magnezone support.

[Scarfwynaut]

What exactly does a sub-Kyurem set look like? Since it is giving up a coverage move, I would imagine it would be wall able by at least something. That also means it would have to run life orb / leftovers, so there is a serious drop in power.

Again, idk, this is all theorymon out my ass. This is why I ask.

[Thorhammer]

If Kyurem-B is not yet broken but might be in a future metagame, we leave it for now and then address it if it turns out broken then. It's not like it can never be reevaluated if things change.

[Psylink]

I have tried Kyurem-B in OU, and let me tell you, it is much better than regular Kyurem.
Getting those stat boosts, the most important one being Attack. Gaining Fusion Bolt helps a ton! Without it, Kyurem-B wouldn't be so viable. Personally, I think it would add a lot of variety to OU, which seems very bland at the moment. It makes Goodstuffs a better option for a team. It feels like about 3/4 of teams are Weather teams.

What I'm getting to is Kyurem-B is one of the best weather counters I've seen. It has either super effective coverage, or at least neutral coverage on the Big Three (more neutral then super efeective, really). That's right: It hits Politoed via Fusion Bolt, and Ninetales and that Tyranitar you hate with a ridiculously powerful Outrage. That comes off of an attack stat of 170.

The only problem is lack of a physical Ice move, other than Freeze Shock, which Troll Freak had to make a two-turn charge move. This is a serious problem. It can still use Ice Beam, but it isn't as POOWWAFULL as Kyurem-W's, which really won't be coming to OU anytime soon. Now if it get Ice Punch or Icicle Crash somehow, that's it's slingshot back to Ubers.

But still, it could be competing with popular physically based Dragon-types, such as Garchomp, Salamence, and Dragonite.

As an official thing to say I will say put Kyurem-B in OU. It has it's problems, sure, but it could be one heck of a monster there.

As Prince Kyurem says:
"I'm going to find a way to learn Ice Punch, no matter how long it takes!"

[alkinesthetase]

"Broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," argument is a terrible logic that's been bounced around here. If the metagame is balanced and diverse, then it's not broken! To me, "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," simply is an excuse to ban top threats that you don't want to face anymore.

bear in mind that the stance on what is and is not broken is subjective. balanced and diverse could be said about OU, PERHAPS (not saying i would agree), but if that places the power of OU above what players prefer, then that's not a desirable metagame either. i'm not saying OU is even close to being there yet... but we're here to play OU, not ubers. the posting in this thread should be demonstration enough - not everyone agrees that this is the direction that OU's power should be heading. unbanning cube would simply push that even higher.

[Lady Alex]

@scarfwynaut

This is the set I used

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SAtk / 148 Spd / 104 HP / 4 Def
Modest Nature
- Substitute
- Dragon Claw
- Blizzard
- Earth Power

It may not be the best set, and the EVs are probably not the most efficient. I just randomly came up with it when I briefly used hail on the ladder. It was pretty good, and it was especially useful against sun and rain. I used modest because kyurem still has a very respectable 338 attack with a -atk nature. I ran enough speed to outspeed jolly breloom in case it tries to spore (most of them realize they're not going to be able to 1hko with mach punch).

[Princess Bri]

Sub Kyurem-B doesn't give up much of its coverage because.. well.. it doesn't have much coverage to begin with, lol.

Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 56 HP / 216 Atk / 236 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire
- Dragon Claw


is what Kyurem-B looks like with a Subsitute set. It's cool since it can sub up on a lot of Pokemon it threatens. I like Ice Beam to hit Gliscor/Hippowdon etc but HP Fire is cool too for Forretress, Genesect, Ferrothorn, etc. -SpA nature since you don't miss out on many KO's anyways.

[Pocket]

Alk (and I guess yee, Lavos, undisputed) - I never said that our current metagame is perfect; I simply said that "broken stuff balancing out broken stuff," is a terrible argument to ban anything, because you can then label the top threats as "broken stuff" and ban them, despite them being readily checked in the metagame. (ie the checks and balances are working, with no particular element overwhelming the other).

And please, STOP BRINGING UP UBERS. Kyu-B in OU =/= Ubers metagame. We aren't bringing down Reshiram, Lugia, Kyurem-W, Kyogre - just Kyurem-B. Kyurem-B is fully dealt with by ordinary OU means, and it is less impressive than pre-existing OU threats (we're not even talking about "the suspects," either, we're talking about less impressive than non-suspects like Terrakion and Garchomp). I do not see the rise in power level by Kyu-B, since it has nominal influence of the metagame - Keldeo, Tornadus-T, and Genesect have noticeably upped this threshold of power - but we are nowhere near Uber level in terms of power. You obviously haven't played any Ubers, because it's such a silly fear (that I already cleared up in post #118 - go read).

[ssbbm]

hm, i think the questions to ask are:

is kyurem-black bad for the metagame? is it broken in the current metagame? is it broken in a "balanced metagame"?

it's not bad for the metagame - it doesn't really fucking do anything, nobody uses it, and its only real effect is boosting hail - this is hardly bad.

is it broken in the current metagame? obviously not.

is it broken in a balanced metagame? this is a more interesting question. right now, i'm actually saying that it isn't. it will always be easily revenge killed, it's hard walled by jirachi (run def evs people) and defensively checked by pokemon like bronzong, skarmory, heatran, and ferrothorn. cb obviously has the weakness of being locked into an outrage, albeit a really strong one, and sub has to decide between ice beam and hp fire for coverage.

verdict: no ban from me.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Thorhammer

If Kyurem-B is not yet broken but might be in a future metagame, we leave it for now and then address it if it turns out broken then. It's not like it can never be reevaluated if things change.

And I have to say, I'm kinda confused about how it's not okay to "clutter" a thread with another regular post like everyone else makes but it's perfectly okay to clutter someone's perfectly permissible post by inserting your own dissenting response right into it where they may not even see it to have a chance to respond.

This post in it's entirety. We could ban Kyurem-B now, but that would just cause us to waste some time, since we'd invariably have to unban it once we deal with "true" suspects in the future. Once we're done suspecting the true culprits (I don't have to tell what they are, by now you should know) then we can deal with Kyurem-B in the future. Banning it now would just be sloppy; yeah, it would make the metagame slightly more tolerable to play, but why is this even relevant?? If you buff & clean shit, it's still shit.

Originally Posted by Fat undisputed

Big ups to PDC, I love that dude.

[alkinesthetase]

Kyu-B in OU =/= Ubers metagame.

fwiw pocket, i did agree with you on this one:

i'm not saying OU is even close to being there yet... but we're here to play OU, not ubers.

but surely it cannot be denied that cube increases the overall "smashiness" of OU. of course we're not going to end up being ubers, of course we're not even close - but we're still closer now than we would have been before. cube's movepool and typing and speed are shit but it's still a cover legend, with stats to match. i'm just saying that cube is raising the power level of OU, and that is not a direction that all players agree with - hence, even if it's not broken in and of itself, voting to ban is not unjustified. either way i had no intention of going for reqs in this round so i'm just here to spectate *shrug* OU is the only meta i play atm, after all.



anyway actual metagame question now: yo bri, that substitute set - no satk EVs? hp fire would be pretty weak without em =/ 252/168 ferro is only 2hkoed like a sixth of the time. i guess that's why ice beam is the main slash?

(i am mainly asking because if cube gets unbanned and a genesect test is next, i intend to actually go for reqs there, so it would be good to familiarize myself with the counters to an upcoming threat)

[Scarfwynaut]

I would encourage others to share their mixed sub-Kyurem sets, but from what it looks like so far, both Jirachi and Chansey are solid counters for sub versions, and there are probably other pokemon (Im thinking Mew). In fact this Kyurem only beats Jirachi if it runs max special attack + life orb + earth power or if you run it in the sun with HP fire(lol).

So yeah, any stall team can run a Chansey or Jirachi + a check to spam outrage versions, certainly an easier pokemon to deal with than genesect.

Again all theorymon, if wrong please correct me. If your a stall player in this meta, your input would be exellent, also, if you have any more counters.

[Aldaron*]

Lmao I wanna troll this topic so badly atm.

All of you, both "sides" and all...relax.

I understand people might hate this meta, but I've almost infracted about 6 people I legitimately like in this topic for saying things like "I've played 15 games, this metagame sucks" and silly statements like that.

[22:22] <MysteryMan> unbanning pokemon causes metagame shifts that would possibly influence whether another pokemon is broken; if it's still broken, then it can be banned later, but if it's banned before, then it would either remain banned or we'd have to do another unban test
[22:23] <MysteryMan> none of the candidates for being unbanned provide support on the scale of something like drizzle that would break previously non-broken pokemon, as far as i can tell
[22:25] <MysteryMan> actually that came out kind of badly and means something different than i intended
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing unbans first and banning later ensures that the banned pokemon are broken in the final metagame
[22:26] <MysteryMan> testing bans first and then unbanning leaves the possibility that something broken in the former metagame is no longer broken in the final metagame
[22:28] <MysteryMan> of course this goes out the window if something major like drizzle gets banned but i am trying to pretend we won't be such an angry mob that that would actually happen

I'm not actually pasting this as justification of the decision to test unban suspects before ban suspects, I'm pasting it so you realize this reasoning is sound AND that the opposite direction logic for the other side is valid as well: while this direction is concerned that things formerly banned might not be broken at the end, the opposite direction would be concerned that things formerly not broken at the end would be broken.

Both side's concerns are valid and there are positives to doing ban suspects first just as there are positives to doing unban suspects first.

This is literally the last time I expect to hear _any_ complaints about the direction we chose to take; if you want to whine about, expect a swift post deletion and a nice 2 point infraction. I know I have like 3 total infractions in 5 years of modding, but I might just be serious about this one.

I'll preface my following statement by throwing something out there in general: I'm starting to warm to the idea of Genesect, Deoxys-D, Drizzle, and possibly Drought as suspect. THAT SAID, I'm getting sick and tired of people constantly whining about their existence in the metagame...here is a fact: the metagame is balanced. Whether or not you like it is entirely subjective. If we wanted to, we could stop suspect tests here and say "we have a balanced metagame." However, we are working on suspect tests, and even possibly redefining broken as we go along, but this is a process that holds huge future consequences and therefore will take time.

Stop bitching.

Stop moaning.

Stop whining.

If you hate this metagame so much, you are welcome to stop playing it, but kindly shut the hell about it.

But, regarding Kyurem-B, judge if it is broken in the current metagame. If it isn't, just vote to unban and accept it. We'll get to the 4 thing I mentioned eventually, but assuming they'll be banned for sure down the road is exceptionally silly. And if they are banned, you have no idea if Kyurem-B would be broken in that metagame.

Honestly children.

[Joeyboy]

I love Aldaron... so much right now <3

And whoever brought it up is right; broken stuff checking other broken stuff would be(by definition) a balanced metagame. The difference is that overall, the average power level is unfamiliar. The definition of broken would simply need to be redefined. If the big broken threats, brought up in this thread(weather, dragons, torn-t, genesect etc), all check each other in one way or another then they should not be considered "broken" or too good; they should be considered the gold standard of the OU metagame. They would be the S Ranked pokemon(see PKs OU viability thread).

They shouldn't be considered a negative influence on the metagame until they are no longer checking each other. I fear that if we don't change how we view "brokenness" we will be at risk of tailoring our metagame to our personal wants and needs. I should add though that that may be what many people want :) who knows, but I've always seen Smogon as being more objective in its banning philosophy.

[Rayquaza_]

The argument that Kyurem-B's physical bulk is useless because of its typing is retarded, to say the least.

The power creep has made it so that if you're hit by a SE STAB attack you're almost always going down regardless of bulk. This is true even for dedicated walls.
Take any physically bulky pokemon in OU and look at its weaknesses. ALL of them have at least one utterly 4x crippling weakness or two or more annoying 2x weaknesses.
Is Gliscor a bad physical wall because a STAB Ice attack is going to trash it? Is Forretress a bad physical wall because a STAB Fire attack is going to fry it?

Dragon, Steel, Rock and Fighting weaknesses are nowhere near as bad as these people claim because the first 2 are always STAB'd so you can see them coming from a mile away, the third is always coming from an 80% accurate attack. Fighting weakness is admittedly bad, but guess what? Kyurem-B can easily survive unSTAB'd Fighting moves thanks to its bulk.

This reminds me of when people were like "derp Kyurem has redundant STABs because both are SE against Dragon and both are resisted by Steel".
Volcarona's STABs are both SE against Grass and both resisted by Fire. And nobody ever brought up that they're redundant. It doesn't even get a SE move to use against Fire types other than Hidden Power. Kyurem at least had Focus Blast.

I repeat: Kyurem-B's typing is no more crippling than any type that has weaknesses to powerful and common SE STAB attacks.
Because of Gen 5's power creep, even dedicated walls easily fall to such attacks.
Therefore Kyurem's typing is not a valid argument against its usefulness.
Needless to say that any other purely offensive pokemon in OU is easily dispatched by any reasonably powerful attack it's weak to, so they're no different from Kyurem.

Gengar's analysis on this site says that its Pursuit weakness is not so bad because you can see it coming thanks to team preview - weakness to a 40 BP trapping move mind you.
As mentioned before two of Kyurem's weaknesses -Steel and Dragon- can be predicted without fail. And yet people go as far as saying that it has the worst typing in the world. Give me a break please. And knock it off with the double standards.

[bubbly]

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

And whoever brought it up is right; broken stuff checking other broken stuff would be(by definition) a balanced metagame. The difference is that overall, the average power level is unfamiliar. The definition of broken would simply need to be redefined. If the big broken threats, brought up in this thread(weather, dragons, torn-t, genesect etc), all check each other in one way or another then they should not be considered "broken" or too good; they should be considered the gold standard of the OU metagame. They would be the S Ranked pokemon(see PKs OU viability thread).

They shouldn't be considered a negative influence on the metagame until they are no longer checking each other. I fear that if we don't change how we view "brokenness" we will be at risk of tailoring our metagame to our personal wants and needs. I should add though that that may be what many people want :) who knows, but I've always seen Smogon as being more objective in its banning philosophy.

I really don't understand this viewpoint at all. If anyone can argue it successfully to me I'd love to hear it but until then I just think it's plain wrong. As an extreme example, we could unban every single Uber pokemon and have a balanced metagame. They check each other; by your logic, this is a reasonable course of action to take.

The only honest way we can define brokenness is through change. If, say, Conkeldurr falls in usage drastically because of Tornadus-T, that's a minor change, but no indication that Tornadus is broken. If, however, we see stall plummet, defensive teams in general fall out of favour, Dugtrio usage skyrocket and the whole host of other changes which it has (in part) precipitated occur, then the only possible conclusion is that it is broken. So long as we have a vast number of changes happening at the same time, and we can clearly point to Tornadus-T as the culprit, then it's broken because its forcing the metagame to adapt more than a balanced pokemon could. We can do tests in reverse too, by removing suspects from the metagame, letting it stabilise, and seeing how much differs.

Obviously, our current situation isn't as simple as that, because Politoed + Genesect + Tornadus + Deoxys-D pretty much share responsibility for the lack of viable variation in this metagame. I think my point still stands though.

[Tobes]

Zekrom is not getting tested. Stop talking about it.

[Arash]

going back to kyurem-B, base 95 speed is crap for an offensive pokemon w/o priority. raping stall doesn't mean anything if stall wasn't going to be viable anyway, and being slower than haxorus isn't going to help you sweep without a +2 speed boost of some sort (at least zekrom gets tailwind / thunder wave)...

however, the metagame is such where to be considered viable, a pokemon has to do one of the following:

- be a dragon or a steel type (no altarias / druddigons / mawiles etc. allowed)
- operate well / benefit from rain
- have a strong enough priority attack to beat salamence / tornadus-T
- be able to beat genesect 1v1, or at least be able to set up while it u-turns away
- have a broken ability (weather, trapping, Imposter, et al)

otherwise there's no point of having any pokemon on your OU team

[Aquasition]

Originally Posted by Fat Arash

however, the metagame is such where to be considered viable, a pokemon has to do one of the following:

- be a dragon or a steel type (no altarias / druddigons / mawiles etc. allowed) Kyu-B is a dragon
- operate well / benefit from rain It's not really affected by rain
- have a strong enough priority attack to beat salamence / tornadus-T Too slow
- be able to beat genesect 1v1, or at least be able to set up while it u-turns away Genesect gets a SpA Boost vs Kyu-B, G-sect gets 2HK'd by Fusion Bolt, while Genesect 3HKs(2HK if Stealth rocks are involved) with +1 Ice Beam or has a chance of OHKs with +1 Flash Cannon,
- have a broken ability (weather, trapping, Imposter, et al) Only Broken vs Skarmory

otherwise there's no point of having any pokemon on your OU team

What I have to say about Kyu-B in Bold.