np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[Chimpakt]

Kyurem-B is just another pokemon that makes stall unviable in this meta. Genesect does have trouble with its most used sets, but it does have both Iron Head and Flash Cannon in its movepool, so it will be able to take it on.

It's a great pokemon, but its typing is going to be its downfall. Because it's weak to two common priority attacks, and stealth rock it won't have a lot of opportunities to really spam attacks. It's best just to use it early game and spam Outrage. The only way I can see it being used later on in the match is if you EV it to be a bulkier set and give it subroost.

[alkinesthetase]

i have a personal dislike for kyube in OU (sorry, i just can't convince myself of a 170 atk dragon in OU), but no legitimate argument against it practically speaking - i can't do much but agree with yee really. kyube is really rather slow for OU so it's unlikely to be a sweeping force on modern offensive teams. and stall is shitty enough as it is, doesn't really need the help of a powerhouse like kyube to become shittier >_>

part of me agrees with /b/utterfree - don't use broken things to check broken things - but really the benchmark of broken is a flexible thing, which it's not my right to place. not much will change in OU as it is from the addition of kyube, so i guess why not? *shrug*

[Katakiri]

The big things about Kyurem-Badass is: No physical Ground or Fighting moves, it's only Fire attack is HP Fire, Hone Claws and Ancient Power are it's only stat boosting moves, and Base 95 Speed.

It's a glorified Darmanitan...that's actually weaker than Darmanitan due to Sheer Force, but it doesn't murder itself with it's STAB; that's the revenge-killer's job.

If UU can handle Darmanitan, I think OU is more than capable of dealing with Kyurem-B.

I'm definitely seconding the opinion that Choice won't be it's calling card. Choice Band is out-classed by Life Orb simply because it doesn't need the extra power since it's already OHKOing at least half of OU and it doesn't get much more than that for Band, however keep in mind that it's not out-pacing a lot of said OU threats, leaving its options for switching-in no better than normal Kyurem's which is to say it almost requires U-turn or Volt Switch to get in safely and when it doesn't, it usually has to be weary of Status from Thunder Wave or Toxic. Life Orb will also allow it to abuse his Base 120 Special Attack.

Also, I have never seen so much fist-slamming anger in a sprite before.

What an unhappy Darmanitan.

[Bologo]

One fact that's worth noting is that Victini's STAB V-Create actually hits 2% harder than Kyurem-B's STAB Outrage when they have the same EV spread. Not to mention that Victini can switch out (or U-turn out), unlike Kyurem-B, which is forced to stay in. Also, Victini's V-Create can be boosted even further by Sun. This is another pokemon that UU has learned to deal with as well. Obviously they're two completely different pokemon, but I just thought it was interesting to expand on Katakiri's example of Darmanitan with Victini to show that we've been dealing with these obscenely powerful attacks for a while now, so it's not a completely new thing.

[FaceFaceFace]

If we want to save stall at all as a viable playstyle, ban Kyurem-B.

Otherwise, I don't think Kyurem-B can compete against the super fast, hard hitting power-creeps in OU right now. Not to mention Heatran walls it to hell and back unless it's running earth power or something.

Bottom line: Whether or not it is OU depends on where we want to take the metagame.

[yee]

The goal of the council is not to take the metagame in a certain direction- it's just to unban all Ubers that may possibly be unbroken in this metagame. Once all of them are down we will start with bans. There is approximately a 100% chance Kyurem-B will be unbanned in this metagame unless people want to speed up the process of banning the broken pokemon in the future's metagame when we start banning Ubers.

[White symphoni]

So it's finally happening in smogon.I haven't played suspect yet but i had a lot of experience with this guy in PO.At first,It was overhyped with Band Outrages flying everywhere but then when people realised it'd major drawbacks,I hardly see it at all.I agree it will not any big difference in OU metagame.It is just too slow and it's bulk while seems amazing is not so good in practice because of that crappy typing.I'm not sure about it's movepool though.A mixed LO Kyurem-B nearly has all the coverage he needs.Outrage+Fusion Bolt+Focus Blast is enough to OHKO/2HKO everything excluding Jirachi.But with enough hazard support Fusion Bolt is a 2HKO on the standard variants.Rather I would call it's lack of reliability the main issue.

Kyurem-B will also bring down Genesect a bit .Although I completely deny genesect being broken,it would be a nice change in team line ups.Flash Cannon and Iron head makes Genesect lose valuable coverage so I don't find those to moves to be much viable.That is IF Kyurem-B doesn't die down like on PO.

[Furai]

Here's something I can actually find interesting! While Kyurem-B does have intimidating 170 base Attack and 120 Special Attack, it has very limited options, only consisting Draco Meteor, Outrage, Focus Blast, Fusion Bolt, Ice Beam, and an Hidden Power. Unfortunately, it's not very fast but it's not slow at all. Yet, many common threats outspeed it, such as Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Salamence, all of which can hit Kyurem-B very hard.

[Silenced Melody]

I don't even think hp fire is worth running unless you're pairing yourself up with another dragon, e.g. Garchomp. I personally think YacheChomp + Kyurem-B will be a pretty decent combination.

Hp fire is kinda useless considering how rain is the most common form of weather and that hp fire will be doing next to nothing to things like Ferrothorn and co in rain. Ice Beam deals roughly the same amount as hp fire in rain to Ferrothorn and also has the ability to OHKO Gliscor.

Kyurem-B is similar to Salamence, really. Kyurem-B has better bulk (At the cost of a horrid defensive typing lol) + 120 Spatk + 170 Atk. Salamence has set-up moves, base 100 speed, and a diverse movepool.
You'd probably fear a +1 Salamence more than a Kyurem-B.

[ginganinja]

It's a glorified Darmanitan...that's actually weaker than Darmanitan due to Sheer Force, but it doesn't murder itself with it's STAB; that's the revenge-killer's job.

I get what you are saying....kinda but I also disagree with it. Sure, Victini and Darmanitan both hit harder, but they are also using a STAB which is actually resisted by more shit than Kyurem-B, which arguably makes it slightly better. Its also a lot bulkier, sure it has shitty defensive typing, but with 125 / 100 / 90 defensive stats its got bulk to burn. Don't get me wrong, I am not calling it broken (I'll test it a good while before making a decision) but I think you are slightly underrating it.

[Taylor]

After all Kyurem-B is a Dragon-type so be sure to see at least two Steel-types per team, or a heavy offensive team filled with Dragons themselves because with only one typing in the game capable of resisting it, there will be a flock of Garchomp/Salamence/Kyu-B itching to plow through any defensively-based team which dares to show itself on the Suspect ladder.

I look forward to those crafty team builders out there who can make this round look like a Dragon feast fit for a king. I think I'm going to start using Rock Polish Genesect and Ditto this round. :)

[Rayquaza_]

Kyurem-B single-handedly breaks any wall in OU.
Pair it with Magnezone and not even offensive teams that rely on things like Scizor as their Dragon resist are safe.
Pair it with Ninetales and its only "checks" (Ferrothorn and Forretress) are destroyed by HP Fire.

Actually, is there anything that is safe from the Kyurem-B+ Magnezone + MoxieMence combo? Note that Magnezone and Salamence cover each other's weaknesses perfectly and Kyurem-B baits steel-types and doesn't particularly care about Mamoswine (which is the only pokemon that can somewhat reliably stop Magnezone+Mence).

Also lol @ comparing it to Darmanitan. Fire is a much worse STAB than Dragon and Darmanitan doesn't even have half of Kyurem-B's bulk.

Kyurem-B is comparable to Lugia: the OU envirorment is hostile to both of them because most OU pokemon happen to have a type advantage, but their presence is likely to be unhealthy to the metagame.

Seriously, if Kyurem-B ends up in OU, Lugia needs to be tested as well. At least they would counterbalance each other, somehow.

[malomyotismon]

You know poor old haxy has still got quite a few things over this dragon, a much better move pool for starters, which includes the one major troll move thios kyruem and zekrom never got, earthquake. This thing has to rely on focus miss if it expects to do much to heatran or hp ground and like zekrom it's the mixed set thats going to be used, why? It's only got 2 viable physical moves and thats fusion bolt or what ever and outrage. But thats so bad because like zekrom he has a solid special attack in this case 120, so why not go mixed? Back to haxy, I think haxy will still be the supperior physical sweeper due to his movepool, acess to dragon dance, earthquake and yes even brick break allow him to beat things a purely physical kyruem can't namely ferothorn and bronzog, oh did i forget bronzog? Ye he hits through his ability with earthquake. Now there is swords dance, but thats more of a garchomp thing, but still unlike garchomp haxy has base 147 attack and no quad ice weakness and compare it to hone claws set black kyruem and ye suddenly his better typing sped and move pool show why this guy should not be out for the ou count just yet. Hey why not try them on the same team? How many things can seriously take an outrage from both these guys? You faint one only to fight another and magenzone is more than happy to rid the world of a genesect trying to ice or steel either dragon.

This thing is basically kyruem on steriods, i can't wait to find out if 80 more attack is enough to justify the use of a pokemon with more issues than the origonal kyruem.

Edit:faceface, stall died a long time ago, so many playstyles out class it now.

[Anikrahman1995]

Originally Posted by Fat malomyotismon

You know poor old haxy has still got quite a few things over this dragon, a much better move pool for starters, which includes the one major troll move thios kyruem and zekrom never got, earthquake. This thing has to rely on focus miss if it expects to do much to heatran or hp ground and like zekrom it's the mixed set thats going to be used, why? It's only got 2 viable physical moves and thats fusion bolt or what ever and outrage. But thats so bad because like zekrom he has a solid special attack in this case 120, so why not go mixed? Back to haxy, I think haxy will still be the supperior physical sweeper due to his movepool, acess to dragon dance, earthquake and yes even brick break allow him to beat things a purely physical kyruem can't namely ferothorn and bronzog, oh did i forget bronzog? Ye he hits through his ability with earthquake. Now there is swords dance, but thats more of a garchomp thing, but still unlike garchomp haxy has base 147 attack and no quad ice weakness and compare it to hone claws set black kyruem and ye suddenly his better typing sped and move pool show why this guy should not be out for the ou count just yet. Hey why not try them on the same team? How many things can seriously take an outrage from both these guys? You faint one only to fight another and magenzone is more than happy to rid the world of a genesect trying to ice or steel either dragon.

This thing is basically kyruem on steriods, i can't wait to find out if 80 more attack is enough to justify the use of a pokemon with more issues than the origonal kyruem.

Edit:faceface, stall died a long time ago, so many playstyles out class it now.

Kyurem-B has earth power to destroy jirachi and Heatran. After testing on PO, I can say that it is a better Haxorus that doesnt need to setup. Kyurem-B isnt weak to Genesect<----this is big as most teams nowadays carry Genesect as their only scarfmon. Kyurem-B can effectively use damage resist berries to take out 2 pokemon on a team. Before saying something, please think. Zekrom's mixed set is rare. Kyurem-B isnt as bad as people make it out to be.
*Through his ability* Kyurem-B hits Bronzong with Earth Power. The original Kyurem isnt shit. You can go ask people who actually use it and think that its underrated(Alexwolf, Katakiri, Ginganinja used it in counter that OU pokemon team project). Have you ever tried the subroost set?

Another thing....go to ubers QC. Kyurem-B actually has ways to beat Ferrothorn.....LO Rock Smash+Outrage.....Hidden Power Fire(why ignore this when so many special attackers use it?)...Focus Blast.

[jonathanrp]

my two cents from the bit I've used Kyurem

been running the mixed set in the Ubers analysis for it with Blizzard instead of ice beam (running him on a hail team). He fits remarkably well on the team, (I had been using regular Kyurem) and that Outrage rips things apart. But I honestly can't say he's broken. I've been seeing a lot of genesect (which imo is an asshole and is broken as fuck unlike kyurem) running iron head to prevent being completely walled by it, which means they're giving some sort of coverage move up which is always nice.

honestly at first I thought kyurem-b was going to be completely broken but I feel like it's perfectly suited to staying in OU. the choice sets aren't exactly hard to play around, and ferro walls all but mixed sets running focus blast/HP Fire (I'm running Focus Blast).

[GatoDelFuego]

"A counter should be able to switch in on any attack and force it out/beat it"

Explain to me how kyurem b has this

[Rechi]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

"A counter should be able to switch in on any attack and force it out/beat it"

Explain to me how Salamence has this

Seriously, most offensive threats in today's OU don't have counters, just checks.

[TropiOUs]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

"A counter should be able to switch in on any attack and force it out/beat it"

Explain to me how kyurem b has this

Counter for band and scarf? I got this
. Mixed sets for like any OU dragon are not easy to counter so ignoring that.

My opinion on this guy is the same from the time it was tested on PO server. It is obviously a strong mon, but not broken by any means when it is way easier to play around than any other dragon in OU because of its barren physical movepool and stealth rock weakness. Before I forget it, mixed is its best set and what people should be using instead of silly band set that is surprisingly outdone by Chomp.

[malomyotismon]

Originally Posted by Fat Anikrahman1995

Kyurem-B has earth power to destroy jirachi and Heatran. After testing on PO, I can say that it is a better Haxorus that doesnt need to setup. Kyurem-B isnt weak to Genesect<----this is big as most teams nowadays carry Genesect as their only scarfmon. Kyurem-B can effectively use damage resist berries to take out 2 pokemon on a team. Before saying something, please think. Zekrom's mixed set is rare. Kyurem-B isnt as bad as people make it out to be.
*Through his ability* Kyurem-B hits Bronzong with Earth Power. The original Kyurem isnt shit. You can go ask people who actually use it and think that its underrated(Alexwolf, Katakiri, Ginganinja used it in counter that OU pokemon team project). Have you ever tried the subroost set?

Another thing....go to ubers QC. Kyurem-B actually has ways to beat Ferrothorn.....LO Rock Smash+Outrage.....Hidden Power Fire(why ignore this when so many special attackers use it?)...Focus Blast.

Genesect beats it actually with flash cannon a clean ko and I never said haxy was better I said as a pure physical attacker and another thing quit putting words in my mouth

[bro fist]

Originally Posted by Fat GatoDelFuego

"A counter should be able to switch in on any attack and force it out/beat it"

Explain to me how kyurem b has this

i think counter is an outdated term. most of bw's top threats arent countered, only checked. this one is probably no exception (i havent really played with k-b enough to pass judgment).

[GatoDelFuego]

If things aren't countered, I think that they should be suspect. It doesn't matter if half ou is uncounterable, then half of ou should be suspect

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Fat Iconic

Before we start testing things to potentially ban from the tier, the OU Council has decided to bring suspects down to test first.

Why? Couldn't the potential future bans make all the previous un-bans questionable again? If not great, but if so we would just wasted a lot of time with two suspect tests for the same mon (or just end up leaving it where it, arguably, shouldn't be). Wouldn't it be better to ban whatever needs to go to have a balanced metagame and then test what cool new things can drop?


Anyways, as far a Kyurem-B goes I strongly doubt the OU environment can't handle. Its 170 base attack means nothing when it has 95 speed, common weaknesses and loses 25% from SR. Its going to have a hard time getting any kills in the current HO metagame. (You could probably even get away with dropping Kyurem-W.)

Looks like stall is getting the short stick, again. (Being unviable for a "long time" doesn't mean it we should leave it like that...)

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Why? Couldn't the potential future bans make all the previous un-bans questionable again? If not great, but if so we would just wasted a lot of time with two suspect tests for the same mon (or just end up leaving it where it, arguably, shouldn't be). Wouldn't it be better to ban whatever needs to go to have a balanced metagame and then test what cool new things can drop?


Anyways, as far a Kyurem-B goes I strongly doubt the OU environment can't handle. Its 170 base attack means nothing when it has 95 speed, common weaknesses and loses 25% from SR. Its going to have a hard time getting any kills in the current HO metagame. (You could probably even get away with dropping Kyurem-W.)

Looks like stall is getting the short stick, again. (Being unviable for a "long time" doesn't mean it we should leave it like that...)

Kyurem-W is out of the question. Kyruem's special movepool is pretty good now and having sun boosted fusion flare in OU isn't exactly a good thing for the meta.

Frankly this test should involve suspecting genesect as a potential ban and kyurem-b as a potential drop.


Edit: one last thing, people need to stop thinking that just because it has a base 170 attack that it's broken. Having a massive attack stat doesn't mean anything. It's not that different from Rampardos to be honest except that its most powerful STAB move doesn't have recoil and has better neutral coverage. (and the speed stats are pretty far apart)

[alexwolf]

Tested Kyurem-B and it was just ok so far in the 10 games that i played. I used a set of Dragon Claw / Outrage / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire with a Chopple Berry. This set is has no true counters outside of Heatran if i am not mistaken, and even Heatran can be easily worn down. Chopple Berry seemed like a cool option to bluff the Scarf and to survive most assaults from faster opponents or Breloom, seeing as most opponents try to take him down with either Fighting or Dragon attacks. If played correctly it can lure quite a bit of mons, and take them down, clearing the way for other dragons or fast sweepers in general.

Something else that could be a funny strategy to try could be Tailwind Hydreigon or Dragonite + CB Kyurem-B. Imagine a Kyurem-B faster than the whole meta firing off powerful Outrages for 2 turns. This could be a nightmare for offensive teams without Breloom / Scizor.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Tested Kyurem-B and it was just ok so far in the 10 games that i played. I used a set of Dragon Claw / Outrage / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire with a Chopple Berry. This set is has no true counters outside of Heatran if i am not mistaken, and even Heatran can be easily worn down. Chopple Berry seemed like a cool option to bluff the Scarf and to survive most assaults from faster opponents or Breloom, seeing as most opponents try to take him down with either Fighting or Dragon attacks. If played correctly it can lure quite a bit of mons, and take them down, clearing the way for other dragons or fast sweepers in general.

Something else that could be a funny strategy to try could be Tailwind Hydreigon or Dragonite + CB Kyurem-B. Imagine a Kyurem-B faster than the whole meta firing off powerful Outrages for 2 turns. This could be a nightmare for offensive teams without Breloom / Scizor.

I'd probably prefer to use that with mixed Kyurem-B so that it doesn't get utterly walled by ferro when you click outrage...