np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 7 - Ice Ice Baby

[dragonuser]

Been playing a few matches on the Suspect Ladder, and I must say that I have found Kyurem-B to be pretty underwhelming. Its immense attack is noteable, but the amount of revenge killers/SR Weakness/Speed really detract from its usefullness. However, I am inclined to agree with SJCrew, in that adding Kyurem-B may give offense too many tools (stall would be pretty much dead) and may change the metagame in a negative way. But the round has just started, and their is plenty of time for my ideas to change/get enforced.

[PK Gaming]

Well to be fair, it's not like Kyurem-B was the straw that broke the camel's back. Let's not kid ourselves, offense as it stands is pretty ridiculous even without him and I don't feel like it's fair to dump all our misgivings on the tier on Kyurem-B alone. (Especially when all of the Dragon Spam teams still function with or without Kyurem-B.)

Dragon Spam is just a popular trend right now because people want to try out Kyu-B. Dragon Spam was annoying at its peak in BW1 too...!

[Lavos Spawn]

I'm using Substitute + 3 Attacks Mixed Kyurem-B on a Hail team of mine, and it is functioning superbly, the star of the show in all the matches I've played so far. STAB Dragon Claw coming off 170 Base Attack packs quite the punch, and Fusion Bolt makes for nice secondary physical coverage. For physical walls such as Gliscor, that's where Blizzard comes in handy, an instant OHKO on the aforementioned, and it does a number on Hippowdon as well. Not necessarily top-tier OU, but certainly a force to be reckoned with. If people would stop using the Choice Band set and explore Cube's other options a little more, they might find some more potential hidden there than they initially assumed existed.

[ssbbm]

i think kyurem-b may not be broken on its own, but it really messes up the metagame (or maybe, like pk gaming said, the meta is already fucked up)

i'm using a 6 choice dragon team, and it actually does really well - kyurem-b is important because it singlehandedly lures and kills all steels. for example, hetaran is 2HKOed by CB outrage.

i think the meta is so geared towards offense, and this is kinda evidenced by the 4 scarves on my team..

[Scorpio]

I think you guys are forgetting Kyurem-B's main purpose: Wallbreaking. I've been using Kyu-B on a hail team, and have gotten at least a single KO a match. I've been using the mixed set in the Ubers analysis which, which Choice Band Abomasnow to take down opposing weather starters, can pretty easily dominate stuff.

Originally Posted by Fat ala

Heatran gets 2hko'd by Choice Band Outrage. Only counters I saw in my 51 matches were Ferro (CB Outrage did 47%, so 2hko with with a layer of spikes), Skarmory (did around 40%) and Forretress (I forget lol, similar to Skarm I'm sure). I'm sure there's more but there's a common theme to its counters in that they are all weak to Magnezone. The better way to defeat it is to lock it in Outrage, let it kill something then revenge it. Obviously this is not a healthy way to deal with threats in the metagame. I know its early but so far I feel it needs to go.

All those counters are also all weak to HP fire.

However, I admit I haven't played that many matches. If anyone needs me, I'll be back on PS testing more.

[Bologo]

Originally Posted by Fat Scorpio

I think you guys are forgetting Kyurem-B's main purpose: Wallbreaking. I've been using Kyu-B on a hail team, and have gotten at least a single KO a match. I've been using the mixed set in the Ubers analysis which, which Choice Band Abomasnow to take down opposing weather starters, can pretty easily dominate stuff.

Yes, Kyurem-B's main purpose is wallbreaking. No one is disputing that, because it sure as hell can't sweep with 95 base Speed and no way to boost that Speed.

The problem is that Kyurem-B has so much trouble coming into the match compared to the other Dragons, making it difficult for him to get the opportunity to break walls. He has no immunities, a weakness to Fighting, Rock, Dragon, and Steel (meaning that aside from the fact that he's weak as hell to priority and a ton of other common moves, he also has a SR weakness). He has no immunities to any entry hazard, and he takes Sandstorm damage. Plus he only has 3 resistances because of that Ice-typing, which are resistances that almost every other Dragon has (plus many more). I'd personally rather use another Dragon which can not only break walls, but also give me some nice utility with its useful resistances and immunities. It's kind of sad to be honest, because Kyurem-B is basically running into the exact same problems that normal Kyurem has. When it comes in, it hurts like hell, but getting it into a favourable matchup is the difficult part.

--

On an unrelated topic, I'm finding Shadow Tag Specs Gothitelle to be amazing in this metagame. Since people are running stuff like Choice Scarf Keldeo, Breloom, and Scizor all around, Gothitelle can get rid of all three as long as you can lure them into the right move. All three are pretty easy ways to get rid of Kyurem-B as well, so Gothitelle would be useful to have on the team with him. Plus, I'm really liking his ability to Trick a Choice Specs onto walls (or just to lock something onto one move in general), because it makes it very easy to setup, and you basically get to pick who you screw over because of Shadow Tag. Personally, I'm setting up with an Icicle Plate Shell Smash Cloyster, because he reaches 524 Speed after a Smash, which outspeeds every Scarfed Dragon (since the base 110s basically have to use HP Fire, which brings them down to 523). Since people insist on using a crapload of Dragons on their team, they basically all become food for Cloyster after he sets up since Icicle Spear and Rock Blast basically destroy them all.

[Pocket]

Deleted all off-topic comments referring to unbanning other ubers. This thread is only for talking about Kyurem-Black and the suspect metagame. Off-topic posts would be deleted, and the user will be infracted.

[Haruno]

Has anyone tried baton passing into kyurem-b? I feel with a +2 speed boost kyurem-b becomes a force to be reckoned with though it still gets butchered by priority which is unfortunate. If only it were pure dragon...

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat Bologo

Yes, Kyurem-B's main purpose is wallbreaking. No one is disputing that, because it sure as hell can't sweep with 95 base Speed and no way to boost that Speed.

Are you honestly suggesting that any other dragon can actually sweep in this metagame infested by choice scarf users with troll speed tiers and Ice Shard Mamoswines?
The entire metagame is a revengekill-fest right now. Kyurem-B is only making things worse. And unlike all the OU dragons, it doesn't give a damn about Ice Shard and it's not KO'ed by any of Genesect's (the premier scarfer) common attacks.

[Haunter**]

Being weak to bullet punch and mach punch makes it easier to revenge kill than other dragons and 95 base Spe with no way of boosting it means that every other OU dragon, barring Dragonite, can outspeed and revenge kill it quite easily.

[Bologo]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Are you honestly suggesting that any other dragon can actually sweep in this metagame infested by choice scarf users with troll speed tiers and Ice Shard Mamoswines?
The entire metagame is a revengekill-fest right now. Kyurem-B is only making things worse. And unlike all the OU dragons, it doesn't give a damn about Ice Shard and it's not KO'ed by any of Genesect's (the premier scarfer) common attacks.

Actually yeah, I am suggesting that the other dragons can sweep due to their better speed. Why do you think Choice Scarf Salamence is one of its most common sets? It's because it can sweep with the Moxie Outrage (not to mention that Salamence can also use his DD set pretty well still). Garchomp carries a Yache Berry half the time to deal with Mamoswine (and has a troll speed tier of its own). I personally use a SubCM Latias which sweeps very easily and deals with Mamoswine from behind a sub (and obviously I sweep with it after I get rid of guys like Genesect, Tyranitar, Scizor, and Jirachi with my other members). It's not as if you're trying to sweep with the Dragons from the very start of the match. You're obviously going to use your other team members to make sure that guys like Mamoswine are gone. No one pokemon can handle everything by itself anyway. Hell, a nice way to get rid of Scarfers has always been Wobbuffet. Even though he is weak to U-turn and therefore has a bit of trouble with Genesect, the Genesect user has a huge risk presented to them if they use U-turn on Wobbuffet while they use Counter, since the thing that switches in after the U-turn will most certainly get killed from the Counter. And I'm pretty sure a Scarf U-turn can't KO if Wobbuffet just keeps his Defense 1 point higher than SpDef. Of course, if they have Bug Buzz on their Scarfer it's a whole different story, but it's still a decent option for getting rid of Scarfers. Another option of course is Jirachi, who just paralyzes all of them.

And you say that Kyurem-B doesn't give a damn about Ice Shard, but in return it gets destroyed by both Mach Punch and Bullet Punch, both of which are more common. Not exactly a nice trade-off IMO.

And you know (and this isn't directed to you, but more of a general thought), I don't understand why having an offensive metagame is such a bad thing in people's minds. At least with an offensive metagame people actually have to make some sort of thought process with each turn instead of mindlessly stalling out their opponent with pokemon that are too weak to use a real attack...seriously, stall is boring as hell, and the sad truth is that people always eventually find new ways to bring it back to prominence anyway, no matter how offensive the game gets. Maybe I'm just biased because I hate using stall teams since I bore myself to death with them.

[ClubbingSealCub]

I played on the Kyurem-B OU tournament hosted by JoeyBoy, so I'll share my (somewhat short) experiences with it.

Honestly, the thing is far from Uber. Ferrothorn is freaking everywhere, and it only takes 60% from an uninvested HP Fire when outside of Rain, so Nattorei can reliably handle it in it.

Standard SPDef Heatran can take non-CB Outrages and Fusion Bolts easily, and then cripple with WoW if it's packing it or roar or lava plume or whatever.

95 base speed means that everything can outspeed and KO it when even without scarf. CB Genesect, any Terrakion, Infernape and Keldeo; Salamence and Chompy; Torn/Thund/Lando - the list goes on. Being part Ice-type is also a big pain in the ass, because Mach Punch is everywhere, and while Scizor is no longer #1 in usage, his Bullet Punch is still around.

If the thing does pack a scarf, it's still slow for OU standards, and won't hit nearly as hard.

Here's the set I used, in case you guys want to give it a spin.


KyuremB @ Dragon Gem
252 Atk / 252 Spe / SpA
Teravolt
Lonely Nature (+Atk -Def)
~ Outrage / Dragon Claw
~ Substitute
~ Fusion Bolt
~ Hidden Power [Fire]

This thing is incredibly threatening behind a Substitute. Everybody assumes you're going to fire a strong ass Outrage when you send this thing in, so Sub on the switch. HP Fire takes out Ferrothorn. Outrage and Fusion Bolt deal a truckload of damage. Dragon Claw if you dislike being locked into Outrage. The gems help you fake a scarf / band set, and can be used to KO things more easily after wearing them down, since Kyurem usually only needs to KO that one poke on the opposing team to go to town.

[PenguinX]

I haven't actually played too many games on this ladder yet but the ones I did play just felt shit. IMO OU doesn't need any more Pokemon that are nigh-impossible to switch into reliably - we already have Terrakion, Genesect, Tornadus-T, the sun sweepers, Specs Keldeo, Thundurus-T, the dragons etc etc. BW2 OU is now at the point for me where a win doesn't feel rewarding and a loss isn't disappointing, because I know all OU is just random coinflipping against these nigh-uncounterable threats and pray I get the call right. This metagame leaves almost all skill at the teambuilder and turns every battle into random guesswork as you attempt to play around the numerous, borderline-broken Pokemon. This is especially the case now with Kyurem-B being suspected because its yet another Pokemon that you simply cannot switch into, and as a result have to rely on revenge-killing.

Kyurem-B certainly isn't Uber by the current standards but BW OU has always had the issue that we've been unable to beat every common Pokemon in OU with the same team - the entire teambuilding process now is just "pick your poison". However, I don't see how bringing another ridiculously powerful Pokemon into OU helps us reach a favourable metagame at all. Unbanning a super powerful Pokemon does not help balance out other superpowerful Pokemon, it just adds to the issue.

Also @ whoever was wondering why nobody is using Skarmory - its because its an incredibly poor Kyurem-B counter. You are practically forced to run Shed Shell on this ladder because DragMag is like 75% of teams, and if you run Shed Shell you really lack the survivability to repeatedly tank hits from Kyurem-B. Outrage is dealing up to 40%, let alone Fusion Bolt.

[Rayquaza_]

Originally Posted by Fat PenguinX

I haven't actually played too many games on this ladder yet but the ones I did play just felt shit. IMO OU doesn't need any more Pokemon that are nigh-impossible to switch into reliably - we already have Terrakion, Genesect, Tornadus-T, the sun sweepers, Specs Keldeo, Thundurus-T, the dragons etc etc. BW2 OU is now at the point for me where a win doesn't feel rewarding and a loss isn't disappointing, because I know all OU is just random coinflipping against these nigh-uncounterable threats and pray I get the call right. This metagame leaves almost all skill at the teambuilder and turns every battle into random guesswork as you attempt to play around the numerous, borderline-broken Pokemon. This is especially the case now with Kyurem-B being suspected because its yet another Pokemon that you simply cannot switch into, and as a result have to rely on revenge-killing.

Exactly my point.
What happened to "A pokemon is uber if it has no counters. A counter is a pokemon that can switch into ANY of the opposing pokemon's moves and threaten it." ?
Because it's sure as hell that most top OU attackers DO NOT fit that criteria, Terrakion and Genesect being blatant examples. Kyurem-B falls into the same category and two wrongs don't make one right.

So, what exactly is a uber pokemon in this metagame? Why would a pokemon that is outright impossible to counter not be uber?

[alkinesthetase]

And you know (and this isn't directed to you, but more of a general thought), I don't understand why having an offensive metagame is such a bad thing in people's minds. At least with an offensive metagame people actually have to make some sort of thought process with each turn instead of mindlessly stalling out their opponent with pokemon that are too weak to use a real attack...seriously, stall is boring as hell, and the sad truth is that people always eventually find new ways to bring it back to prominence anyway, no matter how offensive the game gets. Maybe I'm just biased because I hate using stall teams since I bore myself to death with them.

astounding. you imply stall takes no skill to play? you imply it's inferior to offense? i could argue for days about why you're wrong but obi already did so for me a metagame ago: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41798

the idea that any semblance of stall is unhealthy for a metagame is absolutely preposterous - just as preposterous as the idea that any semblance of offense is unhealthy for a metagame. the metagame should be BALANCED between the two. who are you to say what playstyles i should and should not play? what is so uncompetitive about stall that it's suddenly an unhealthy aspect of a metagame? "oh i don't like it so who cares, nobody will miss it since CLEARLY EVERYONE AGREES WITH ME" is not an acceptable argument when there are plenty of players who champion a defensive style... and we don't do so because we hate it, or otherwise we freaking wouldn't do it

god i think i'm almost actually offended. it's not like stall is good in this metagame or anything, but the fact that it's so thoroughly bad is not a good thing and certainly should not be characterized as such

[GatoDelFuego]

I don't believe that the argument that any dragon in OU is superior to Kyurem-B should be used, as if there's something broken but there's another thing more broken, it doesn't make the inferior one any better. Giratina-O outclasses Giratina at offense, but that doesn't make Giratina's offensives any less. Looking at just Kyurem-B, what can switch in to it, and what can counter it is the only we should be considering. It doesn't matter if "half of OU's top threats have no counters", if Kyurem-B has no counters, then it doesn't deserve to be here.

[bubbly]

yeah lol i completely agree. kyurem basically prohibits you from using anything but full offense. the metagame is already fucked enough that defensive teams can't simultaneously have hazards, rapid spin and still reliably check all the relevant threats, we really don't need kyu to basically force every defensive player into using ferro + rain or physically defensive tran / rachi.

[flea]

So there are two possibly reasons I see thrown out to ban Kyurem-B, and they are both pretty weak when analyzed a little more imho.

1) Its presence along with Garchomp/Mence/Dnite/Haxorus/Lati@s/Hydreigon/Genesect/Etc.etc.etc. will indubitably shift the metagame to become a dragon-centric, unbalanced one where defensive pokemon are not even worth carrying.
2) It is "broken", it has no true counters, teams will have to carry several checks to have a prayer of winning against a team with one.

As far as the first one goes- I think we can just put to sleep the notion that Kyurem-B can "kill stall" or "unbalance the metagame" single-handedly. It's like what PK Gaming said- dragmag works with or without kyurem-b. You can take CB Haxorus+ Scarfmence+ Magnezone and tear holes through 90% of teams without too much prediction (trust me, even a pretty mediocre battler like me can). The metagame is already extremely revenge-kill centered (hi Genesect) and Kyurem-B may further this trend a bit, but come on, open your eyes if you think this thing will open the floodgates.

To the second one- Tornadus-T has one counter (Sp. Def Jirachi). Genesect has one counter (Heatran). Haxorus has one counter (Skarmory). The new MixMence (Outrage, Draco, EQ, Fire Blast) has arguably no counters (maybe lolCresselia). I just don't see how this thing can possibly be broken, even if it doesn't have a "counter", in the 2nd or 3rd-gen sense of the word. You might have to sac something to beat it, but it has base 95 speed, is revenged by pretty much anything with a scarf, has a barren physical movepool, is weak to SR, two common priority moves, two of the most common attacking types, and there are things that currently exist in the metagame (Victini, Haxorus, Dragonite), that can wallbreak arguably just as well. Just too many things destroy Kyurem-B one-on-one that I haven't been able to take out more than 1 or 2 pokes with it on any occasion and half the time it just takes a chunk out of a steel and then dies.

[PK Gaming]

Exactly. People are making Kyurem-B out to be godawful beast that ruined BW2 by promoting Dragmag teams... what? I was going to stay mostly mute in the face of ubiquitous Kyurem-B hate I didn't even think this issue was worth debating.

It's not like Haxorus is THAT MUCH WORSE (i'd argue that it's even better in some respects) that it can't act as Substitute to it. You can literally replace Kyurem-B on most Dragmag teams with Haxorus and you won't have to worry about a huge disparity in quality. I'll admit that Haxorus is ultimately inferior to Kyurem-B because it's not as susceptible to Genesect, but it's not so much inferior to the point that removing Kyurem-B from the metagame would SUDDENLY MAKE THINGS BETTER.

If you have a problem with the metagame right now, then you should have had a problem with it since BW2s inception(or whenever Genesect got added I guess, whatever). Dragmag wasn't a thing last round because Lavoffense (hehe) was everywhere. But it's back in full force now, and I guess people need to deal with it? I remember it being annoying during it's peak in BW1 too.

TL;DR The bottom line you can't just say Kyurem-B did a sparkle dance and that's the reason for everything shitty.

[bubbly]

Kyurem doesn't honestly change much at all about the metagame, I completely agree with you on that. The thing is, though, that in a healthy metagame it would be banworthy. The only reason it isn't considered broken right now is that nobody uses defensive teams anyway. As I see it, either we just accept that everything is broken and that we won't have any viable playstyles bar offense until the next generation, or we try and fix stuff. If we want to fix the metagame, then what we don't do is allow yet another uncounterable pokemon back in, because it just means more work to do later on.

[PK Gaming]

I disagree with you on both points.

Banning Kyurem-B won't really help towards making the metagame "healthier" because it isn't even a major player that's contributing to what's wrong with the current metagame. It's not any more broken than say... Hydreigon or Haxorus, 2 Pokemon that have been in BW OU since like forever. Both of these Pokemon are also really difficult to counter (hell Hydreigon is flat out impossible to counter) . It's not as hazardous towards stall like Terrakion, Thundurus-T, or other any of the other "really good" Pokemon that exist in OU right now imo. In fact i'd say it's effectiveness is worse than the above Pokemon due to that SR weak. Kyurem-B's a cool choice right now because it enjoys the fact that Genesect is legal since everyone uses that to check Dragon-types, (unless you're using Iron Head) but if Genesect were to be banned I could see its viability taking a hit. It's flawed in the same ways that Haxorus is flawed; it's way too slow, and added to that it even has an obnoxious SR weak.

I also don't like the idea of selectively banning things to make the metagame better. I don't think BW2 OU will progress much past this point outside of the possible Genesect ban, that's of course assuming we keep weather as is.

[alexwolf]

I agree with bubbly. Our first concern should be to level down the power level in OU, where things are already crazy, not the opposite. We should first be looking at the biggest suspects in OU (Genesect, Torn-T and Deo-D), which are believed by the majority of the community to be broken (from my experience, no hate pls) to be broken. Then we can look Ubers for any potential non broken pokes for OU, but we should first try to create a balanced OU meta.

[jonathanrp]

Originally Posted by Fat Scorpio

I think you guys are forgetting Kyurem-B's main purpose: Wallbreaking. I've been using Kyu-B on a hail team, and have gotten at least a single KO a match. I've been using the mixed set in the Ubers analysis which, which Choice Band Abomasnow to take down opposing weather starters, can pretty easily dominate stuff.



All those counters are also all weak to HP fire.

However, I admit I haven't played that many matches. If anyone needs me, I'll be back on PS testing more.

heh, I'm using CB Aboma and the Ubers Mixed Kyurem-B as well.

the two of those things do an excellent job of just annihilating things in general.

[Chimpakt]

It's not even OHKO'd by those priority moves unlike every dragon and ice shard.

252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Kyurem-B: 65.98% - 77.49% (2 hits to KO)
252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bullet Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Kyurem-B: 82.86% - 98.21% (2 hits to KO)

Obviously with rocks up that's a different story, but Kyurem-B should be used early on in the game. It has the bulk to take hits as evidenced by the calcs above and it can 2hko nearly anything that is being used right now except for Ferrothorn.

[Bologo]

Originally Posted by Fat alkinesthetase

astounding. you imply stall takes no skill to play? you imply it's inferior to offense? i could argue for days about why you're wrong but obi already did so for me a metagame ago: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41798

the idea that any semblance of stall is unhealthy for a metagame is absolutely preposterous - just as preposterous as the idea that any semblance of offense is unhealthy for a metagame. the metagame should be BALANCED between the two. who are you to say what playstyles i should and should not play? what is so uncompetitive about stall that it's suddenly an unhealthy aspect of a metagame? "oh i don't like it so who cares, nobody will miss it since CLEARLY EVERYONE AGREES WITH ME" is not an acceptable argument when there are plenty of players who champion a defensive style... and we don't do so because we hate it, or otherwise we freaking wouldn't do it

god i think i'm almost actually offended. it's not like stall is good in this metagame or anything, but the fact that it's so thoroughly bad is not a good thing and certainly should not be characterized as such

No need to be a drama queen (lol really...when you're using quotes around something, it's supposed to be something the person directly said, not words you put in their mouth, just saying). I actually admitted in my post that I might have been a bit biased, so there's no need to take offense. I personally disagree that it takes a lot of skill to use, but I never disagreed that the metagame should be balanced, or that stall is "unhealthy" or "uncompetitive" for the metagame. I said that I don't understand why it has to be balanced, and I especially don't know why people are trying to pin this on one single pokemon, or even one single type, since Dragons are sure as hell not the only thing making the metagame shift toward offense. Nobody ever seems to complain when the metagame becomes too defensive, but when it becomes offensive, people start protesting with signs, creative chants, and a torch-wielding mob.

If you actually read my post instead of going on some angry rant, you'd see that I said that it always comes back into prominence somehow (though I'm personally not happy about that, it's just my opinion). Just like in DP when stall was dying, that Obi Stall team brought it back to prominence. The same thing happened with QuickStall (I think), and yeah. I get the feeling that it's going to happen again, and there are people that are trying to find new ways with stuff like SunStall and RainStall (which is theoretically pretty decent against Kyurem-B since Ferrothorn and Jirachi can fare quite well against it in Rain, though I've never tried it myself).