The OU Viability Ranking thread

[tehy]

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

You are only saying that I cited rare things, but Landorus with Earth Power (and Earthquake) and Tornadus' Hurricane are common, and I've cited them. They are neutral attacks perfectly capable of destroying Ferrothorn, even if it invests in Special Defense. Both of them even carry Fighting-type attacks, so Ferrothorn is very limited on options that they use that it can switch into. Also, I never said that those attacks could even 2HKO Ferrothorn, but that these attacks, when not 2HKOing, can at least cripple Ferrothorn so that the next switch-in can finish the job. As Ferrothorn lacks reliable recovery, it will be put on a though position (Leech Seed is not sufficient).

I said you cited things that are rare in the case of Cb genesect and bug buzz LO genesect

You are compltely correct that ferrothorn is very limited on options it can switch into. WHICH IS WHY IT DOESN'T EVER SWITCH INTO THEM. And leech seed is close to 18% a turn, with lefties, which is pretty good.

Edit: Maybe genesect and thundurus-T, but tornadus T doesn't switch in THAT easily (Guess regenerator means leech seed matters less), and keldeo? Revenges it true, but still.

[Dskullkid]

Originally Posted by Fat Joeyboy

Thank god, this is being addressed again, :)

I said Ninetales deserved S-Rank before and I say it again now.

The main argument as to why Ninetales isn't S-Rank, at least when I nominated it, was that it wasn't a good pokemon at all, besides the drought support it brought. Regardless if that is true or not, we aren't nominating non-drought Ninetales as S-Rank, we are nominating Drought Ninetales.

The fact that Ninetales summons permanent Sun alone makes it S-Rank material in my eyes. Neither Politoed nor Ninetales would be anywhere near S-Rank if not for weather. People bring up that Politoed is a good pokemon, and is more than just a weather starter, and that's just not true. Politoed would not be used if not for Drizzle. This is the same thing for Ninetales.

Anyway Aldaron definitely worded it better, but I just wanted to throw my support behind it again. For prosperity:



Plus, I have no doubt that many people would say Sun could be a suspect.

The point is that Politoed IS better then ninetails, since he functions as a strong bulky water and isn't stealth rock weak.

[papai noel]

Ferrothorn only deservers to be B Tier in BW2. New threats, such as Keldeo, Genesect, Tornadus-T, and Thundurus-T make it really hard to function, not to mention the high use of Breloom, Terrakion and Landorus. The unban of Garchomp was also a big deal, and Ferrothorn struggles to manage him. In BW it was a great wall, in BW2 he's not.

EDIT: Ok, I sounded like Ferrothorn is really bad lol. He is good, just not good enough to be A Tier.

EDIT2: I didn't say they could switch into any Ferrothorn set, I'm just saying that there are new threats that give Ferrothorn a hard time to function.

[StarmieLazer]

Ninetales is the only poke that can set Sun in OU. It has Nasty Plot, and Energy Ball. It has an easier time wrecking Politoed on the switch in. But a Crippling Stealth Rock Weakness, and typing do hinder it, A Tier.

I would like to nominate Gliscor for A Tier, its one of the best Physical Walls around, capable of living +2 Stone Edges from Terrakion. Poison Heal also gives it great passive recovery, and immunity to status. (It takes on Techniloom pretty well)

It can take on DD Salamence, DD Dragonite, Physical Setup Sweepers in General pretty easily, it also has taunt to stop them from setting up. (It Also has Ice Fang)

It doesn't take on special attackers well though, like Keldeo and Tornadus, but that's what teammates are for. I don't see anything in the A Tier outclassing Gliscor as a physical wall. It now even has access to Roost and Stealth Rock. Deo-D prefers to be Specially Defensive, while Hippowdon also takes on special attackers terribly.

Gliscor is somewhat wrecked by Banded Mamoswine.

[LucaroarkZ]

I'm not 100% sure of Gliscor to A, to be honest. I mean, no doubt, its SubToxic set is fantastic (and very very very annoying), but I've found that as a wall, it's overall quite mediocre and saying it's one of the best physical walls around is really pushing it in my opinion. It can't really switch in on CB Terrakion Stone Edges all that well (in fact, when I was using CB Terrakion, I've actually beaten Gliscor with it multiple times). It doesn't take on Techniloom that well at all. It NEEDS NEEDS NEEDS Taunt to do well against it, but then you're probably dropping Ice Fang, in which case you're doing pathetic damage to Breloom. If Breloom gets a Swords Dance against something else, well, you can kiss your "Techniloom stop" good-bye, because +2 LO five-hit Bullet Seed OHKOes Gliscor after Stealth Rock. Realistically, Gliscor is unlikely to be at full HP, making it do even worse against SD Techniloom (even if Techniloom doesn't pull a five-hit Bullet Seed!). Conkeldurr beats Gliscor now thanks to Ice Punch. Beating DD Salamence? Sure, except for +1 Outrage 2HKOing Gliscor after Stealth Rock and Ice Fang not OHKOing Salamence. Great counter IMO. Not to mention that Gliscor kind of loses to MixMence. Unfortunately, Gliscor suffers the same fate against DD Dragonite and does even worse against CB Dragonite.

Other than that, there's a multitude of other Pokemon that can beat Gliscor: Lati@s, Landorus, Mamoswine, Keldeo, Politoed, Gengar, Rotom-W, etc. I've just found that it's really easy to take advantage of the fact that Gliscor has very exploitable weaknesses and often runs Earthquake as its only attacking move.

[Lord of Bays]

I'd say Gliscor is B or maybe even C now. Sure, he puts a stop to unboosted, weaker physical attackers, but the metagame is so unkind to stall that teams are putting more and more stock into offense and he can't keep up.

It really doesn't help that Rain is THE best strategy and its best abusers (Genesect, Tornadus, and Keldeo) break Gliscor in half without even trying.

[alexwolf]

Yeah Gliscor is clear B rank material. Gliscor lost its best offensive set after the banning of Sand Veil, and SubToxic is mediocre. Not to mention that Rain teams being so popular really hamper Gliscor's viability, in addition to the fast pace of the meta, which Gliscor isn't particular fond of. Honestly Landorus-T seems as a much better pick right now in general.

EDIT: Guys Gliscor is already in B rank.

[GatoDelFuego]

Gliscor is B rank, for sure, but his SubToxic sets, if given a turn of setup, can win games single-handedly. Landorus-T is a much better defensive pivot, but Gliscor can wall much more.

[alexwolf]

The thing is that because so many teams are offensive, and there are not many Pokemon that Gliscor can wall in each team, even if Gliscor gets a Sub up, it will be able to stall from 2-3 turns max for Toxic damage, which is not enough. Not to mention that very common Pokemon such as Deoxys-D and Taunt Tornadus-T shit all over SubToxic Gliscor... Setting up a Sub on the switch is no more the safest round, forcing Glliscor to predict if it wants to have any impact against teams with such Pokemon.

[PDC]

Maybe I am the only one who feels this, but I believe that Moltres deserves a C Rank on the viability chart. Moltres may seem like a terrible Pokemon at first glance, but it is truly a gem in the rough. The 4X Stealth Rock weakness stands out immediately, but it has some fantastic use in where it shines. Moltres can make use of it's fantastic Special Attack and solid movepool, while also abusing a strong STAB Hurricane in the Rain, which can destroy teams just as easily as Tornadus - T can. But instead of being walled by Jirachi and friends, Moltres can blast through it with Fire Blast. Moltres has been used to great success previously by great players such as dragonuser and it has proven to not just be deadweight.

Moltres has access to solid enough stats, and although it's typing does suck in some aspects, it can be remedied by it's offensive prowess. Moltres can also be used on Sun teams, giving it's Fire Blast a huge power boost. Weather has given Moltres a solid place on some teams as a viable sweeper in both Sun and Rain, and I believe it belongs with it's electric brother Zapdos in C Rank.

[StarmieLazer]

the Speed and the 4x Weakness hurt it, considering a lot of stuff outspeed you, I mean A lot. Landorus, Jirachi, Terrakion, Thundurus-T, Tornadus-T,Landorus-I, Keldeo, Gengar, Alakazam, Genesect, Hydreigon, etc.


I forgot how Rain dominates the Metagame on my Gliscor Post.

[alexwolf]

I thought i was the only one that liked Moltres... Agreeing with PDC, Moltres for C Rank! It's Specs set works wonders with Tornadus-T!

[zerohero]

I like to nominate weavile for C rank.

same functions as mamo just a faster but frailer version. he is fast enough to outspeed tornadus t without relying on ice shard. has low kick to deal with half of the steel types in ou. not to mention a neutral nature atk low kick ohko terrakion and is able to take out 3 of the weather starters by himself(Ttar, hippo, abomasnow) though not the greatest thing but still helpful for a surprise way to win the weather war. though he needs support due to losing 25% of his health due SR. i feel he is great with support since he is frail.

[FaceFaceFace]

Hah. I just realised that a major reason for Garchomp being A instead of S is because Terrakion outspeeds it.

[Scarfwynaut]

I think if Weavile and Moltres are both tiered, they should both be D rank. The definition of D rank.

D rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

Both Moltres and Weavile do indeed have a tiny niche in the metagame, but it truly is a small niche that requires a ton of support and right team building. One can not just throw either of them on a team as with some C rank pokemon and expect them to shine. Both need rapid spin support. Moltres needs rain support and a specific niche in a team to cover very specific threats, like Weavile does to take on tyranitar and Amomasnow. I can compare this to the only currently ranked D tier pokemon Metagross. If one uses metagross to fufill its specifc niche as a bulky steel tank that can set up hazards, then it indeed can work on a team, at a similar level to moltres and Weavile.

Also looking at the list of B rank pokemon, I think Kingdra, Zapdos, and Xatu all need to be discussed about dropping to C. All of these pokemon yes can be very effective with the right support, Kingdra even game changing, but I feel as though they require a bit to much support for such a high tiering. I am a fan of Zapdos, but it needs the right niche on a team to be used, or else you are better off using something else.

[zerohero]

i agree with zapdos moving down to C. the only set i see worth running in OU is the subroost set so you can stall imo. plus if they really B rank why are they not used in OU more often then lets say metagross which is our only D rank pokemon.

[Bent1ey]

I vote Genesect to S+, because Deoxys-D and Terrakion simply don't belong to the same tier than Gene. Terrakion is one nasty powerful revengekiller and a decent sweeper, but it lacks of the easy switch ins and the annoying ability to U-turn everything. Deoxys-D is a powerful spiker nearly impossible to stop, but he's the definition of a one-trick pony and just barely belongs to S in comparition to Drizzletoed.

The only pokemon who comes close to match Genesect is Drizzletoed, they can go to S+, and this could lead to bump Ninetales to S where it belongs.

[FaceFaceFace]

How is Drizzletoed even on the same level as Genesect? The only reason it's on par with Terrakion and Deoxys-D is because of Drizzle and the menagerie of rain abusers in OU. As a Pokemon, Toed's just not that good. It's versatile, but not that good.

I agree with you on Deoxys-D, though. It's not nearly as broken as some make it to be. Even if (fingers cross) Genesect gets banned, Scizor, Tyranitar etc all check Deoxys-D pretty well.

[Scarfwynaut]

Do you guys eve look at the descriptions?

S-teir: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Politoed is an amazing team supporter, making things like Tornadus-T and Keldeo into monsters, as well as making Ferrothorn and Tentacruel into amazing walls. It is also a solid weather changer, able to switch into all the weather starts outside of Abomasnow with little to no worries. While politoed may not be an amazing pokemon all by itself, it can certainly provide the support needed to do its job. There is a reason its the second most used pokemon.

btw, you can't have a suspect above other suspects tier...

[FaceFaceFace]

My point was not that Toed isn't S Tier; it definitely is. All S-Tier Pokemon have a few drawbacks that make them manageable...save Genesect, who arguably belongs in a league all by itself.

[thebrownie]

I don't find Genesect hard to deal with. It's easily a threat to every team, but if you build a team with a reliable way of dealing with it (same with baton pass) it's not a big deal. There isn't a real reliable way to deal with Toed from what I can tell because it's purpose is just to get the weather up, anything else is gravy.

[ginganinja]

Volcarona and Venusaur should prolly be A Rank. Both do an excellent job at sweeping large parts of the metagame. From the OP

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Volcarona and Venusaur can sweep teams very well and without too much difficulty but, each have flaws which prevent them from doing this consistently. Volcarona suffers from that large SR weakness, and 4MSS to an extent. It can customise its moveset to offset the SR weakness somewhat, beat bulky water types, nail Heatran or Terrakion etc etc, but it cannot do all of this at once and thus, its prevented from sweeping consistently. Venusaur is in a similar boat, it lacks a crippling SR weakness, but again, its moveset can be fairly restricted, with Sunny Day, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Ice, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Growth all fighting for places (some moves obviously more viable than others). This fact prevents it from being unstoppable as it usually has to select what it misses out on so yea, as the definition is currently written, these pokemon are worth moving up to A rank.

Ferrothorn also deserves fair consideration based on the wording of the A Tier definition. It actually "walls" a fair bit of the OU metagame, and often does its job, setting up layers without too much trouble. Sure, its weak to Fire and Fighting attacks, and it prolly needs a spinblocker with it if you really want to keep its hazards, and rain support goes a long way in supporting it, but its pretty reliable, and I can usually count on it to set up 1-2 layers of hazards with no problem. It does suffer from severe competition from Deoxys-D to be sure, but its typing + hazards make it good enough for A tier imo.

Ninetales should be S rank but if already touched on that. I don't really care how shit the pokemon is, the support it brings (Perma Sun if the opponent lacks a weather inducer of their own to counter) is massive. The benefits are obvious and apparent to anyone who actually has faced a sun team. Sure, Ninetales is shit, but Drought is 100% S tier and therefore, Ninetales should be moved up there.

[Wizarus]

The problem is that Volcanora is always going to be walled by at least one, normally 2 pokemon on the team. That coupled with SR weakness and nerfed STAB in the most dominant weather means that it absolutely needs more support than a pokemon on A-Tier should need.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

Do you guys eve look at the descriptions?

S-teir: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Politoed is an amazing team supporter, making things like Tornadus-T and Keldeo into monsters, as well as making Ferrothorn and Tentacruel into amazing walls. It is also a solid weather changer, able to switch into all the weather starts outside of Abomasnow with little to no worries. While politoed may not be an amazing pokemon all by itself, it can certainly provide the support needed to do its job. There is a reason its the second most used pokemon.

btw, you can't have a suspect above other suspects tier...

Again, I may have gone too far bumping Politoed up, but considering Genesect to be above the rest of the S tier is going to be pretty evident to everyone, so you might as well make it official.

Otherwise S is its place just because there isn't any higher.

@The brownie: Genesect is better than just about any other poke in the meta, but that doesn't make it invincible. If you're geared towards it of course you can deal with it, but the fact that people have to deal with Genesect invariably proves how much of a staple he is.

There is enough discussion about Genesect in other places so I'll better go into this thread's main topic.

I love Venusaur but I don't see him getting into A-Rank, not only it needs set up, but it's coverage it's rather mediocre with the Sleep Clause on. Decent pokemon, but it's not really sweeping through pokemon with a little set up (Sun), you still have to remove key players in order to run through your opponent in a decent capacity, and at any given point you could lose your weather so that option must remain open too.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I support Venusaur for A-Rank because it can actually sweep a large portion of the metagame using its Growth set. Poison-type moves generally have poor coverage, but they are essential to complete the Grass-Fire coverage; they take the Fire and Dragon-types that this coverage miss out. With such coverage, there is almost nothing that can avoid being OHKOed or 2HKOed after a Growth boost, even if Venusaur runs a Timid nature. Think that the pink blobls can wall him? Try as they might, Venusaur will use them as setup fodder, grabbing more Growth boosts and then 2HKO both with Giga Drain.

It is hard to stop even with priority, as even a STAB Ice Shard from Mamoswine will not OHKO if Venusaur is at full health.

The only full stop to him is Heatran, wich is not even 2HKOed by a +6 Life Orb-boosted Giga Drain, and simply laughs at other attacks (except Earthquake, but by running Earthquake, Venusaur will create a large gap on its coverage, missing other important things at the cost of only taking its would-be counter). However, even Heatran is a shaky way to deal with Venusaur, as many of them are friends of a certain brown mole that can trap and OHKO Heatran.

Venusaur is almost unstoppable at +2 on sun. Another shaky way to deal with it is changing the weather to something other than sun, preferably rain, and then switch to something that can take one of its boosted attacks (predict well or die) and then KO him.

It perfectly fits on this description: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

As there are three things that it requires as support. First, Drought - Ninetales easily provide this. Second, remove Heatran - Dugtrio can easily do this and in fact, that's why it is at most sun teams, but there are also other ways, like Terrakion or a surprise Ground-type attack from one of your Fire-type partners. Third, remove the opponent's weather inducer not named Ninetales - None of them can take Giga Drain (except for Abomasnow, wich can't take Hidden Power Fire), but Venusaur doesn't like having its sweep interrupted because its speed has been cut by half.

Outside of this, Venusaur requires little support, and after a Growth boost, few things can stop him.