The OU Viability Ranking thread

[ginganinja]

Originally Posted by Fat New World Order

I question whether Thundurus-T really deserves to be A tier, this thing is a far cry from its Incarnate form from BW1. 101 base Speed and Volt Absorb just isn't the same as 111 base Speed an Prankster. It has more SpA, that's it, although Incarnate could use Nasty Plot whereas Therian needs to rely on Agility to sweep in most cases, so it's inferior even in that department. This Pokemon is SR weak, frail, difficult to set up with due to the aforementioned reasons, and is easily revenge killed. Oh look, Thundurus-T used Nasty Plot, dang it, I guess I'll just... revenge kill it with pretty much anything. Oh look it used Agility, I guess I'll just... send in a generic special wall like Jirachi or Blissey. The Choice Scarf set is great on paper... except that Scarf Keldeo, Genesect, Salamence, Garchomp etc all hit harder. Perhaps if Genesect/Keldeo weren't the go to revenge killers on like every team, Scarf Thundurus-T would be a top tier Pokemon.

Thundurus, to me, just seems so much weaker than the other A tier offensive Pokemon. Dragonite's Multi Scale helps make up for basically every problem Thundurus faces. It's easier to switch in, set up, more difficult to revenge kill, you name it. Garchomp trolls Thundurus-T in terms of Speed and has better STAB coverage than Thundurus-T has coverage. Keldeo actually has a way to bypass special walls thanks to Secret Sword, whereas Thundurus needs a Nasty Plot up to do the same, and lets not lie, Nasty Plot Thundurus is just begging to get revenge killed. Lati@s have superior bulk and Speed, which makes it so much easier to get in and spam Meteors or start setting up Calm Minds. Salamence is perhaps the only Pokemon on this list that Thundurus-T can hold a candle to, as it suffers from pretty much all the same problems. Intimidate at least makes it easier to set up, and Dragon>>>>Electric STAB. Finally, Tornadus-T, who suffers from the same frailness issues as Thundurus-T, has better Speed to avoid revenge kills as well as Regenerator to mitigate Steath Rock issues.

The only saving grace IMO is it's Mixed set, which when played correctly, can dispose of annoying shit like Blissey and Gastrodon so you can let your Starmie, Tornadus-T, and whoever else spam moves to their heart's content. Even so, Thundurus is borderline A-tier at best, and feels lackluster compared to other offensive A-tier threats.

TLDR: Thundurus-T overrated, move down to B-tier.

Err what?

Mixed set is prolly one of its weaker sets, so idk what you are arguing about. I read your post, but all I see really is you whinging that it fails to kill stall and offence at the same time, which a lot of A tier pokemon struggle to do anyway. NP Thundurus-T utterly cleans right through stall, you don't need to run Mixed for it, or Grass Knot, you just run a set of Thunder / Focus Blast / HP Ice / Nasty Plot and nuke everything. Sure, you can be revenge killed (by offensive teams), but 101 base speed isn't terrible in this metagame, which lets you threaten slower shit such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, Politoed, unboosted Dragonite, and a shitload of other things. You might not find the time to Nasty Plot, but against an offensive team, you don't even need too - a LO Thunder fucking HURTS and can and will blast holes through the team. You won't clean "6-0" but your opponent often has a few pokemon that sit at below 101 base speed, which Thundurus can then exploit by forcing your opponent to either sac / have these pokemon crippled etc (to prevent Thundurus-T getting free attacks off them) or choosing a faster pokmeon to take a hit (which are less likely to take a hit from LO Thundurus-T as well).

Agility is a different kettle of fish, trading the usefulness against stall (which is rare, and BW2 introduced new pokemon which rape stall anyway) for exceptional potential vs Offensive teams (you know, the ones that you say will revenge it). With Agility, your opponent pretty much needs to LO stall you, or pick you off with Priority, neither of which are reliable, and its likely Thundurus-T has taken out a pokemon or 2 by the time you take it down.

So maybe its not running Agility or NP, heck, maybe its running Double Dance, which lets it pick what boosting move is best for it in a given situation, and then sweeping. Sure, you lose out on coverage, which in turn make you slightly, easier to counter, although depending on its 2nd attack, you can still lose. The set was actually popular recently on suspect for raping that gay Deo-D + 5 sweepers team since Thundurus-T would just punch through with NP + Agility (and be immune to Thunder Wave) but maybe you didn't run into that set so idk.

Finally:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Thats what you are comparing. Those are the differences and IMO, Thundurus-T can sweep most of the metagame, the main flaws being that it cannot sweep both stall and offensive teams consistently, as well as being SR weak. But then again, its not the only A tier pokemon that cannot do this so ???

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat superstar

Chandelure does have a niche, and it is viable unlike Metagross. This team uses Chandelure as a fantastic partner to Terrakion, as well as a great offensive spin blocker. Teams that use Terrakion or another priority-weak Pokemon might not want to use Gengar as a spinblocker, and Chandelure is the only other option for an offensive team.

Countering Scizor while blocking exactly one of five OU viable spinners is perhaps the smallest niche I can think of, making it a perfect example of a D-tier Pokemon.

[thebrownie]

Originally Posted by Fat superstar

Chandelure does have a niche, and it is viable unlike Metagross. This team uses Chandelure as a fantastic partner to Terrakion, as well as a great offensive spin blocker. Teams that use Terrakion or another priority-weak Pokemon might not want to use Gengar as a spinblocker, and Chandelure is the only other option for an offensive team.

Spinblock with Chandelure? I suppose it's doable, you switch in on spin, hit spinner such that it's in revenge kill range and bring in revenge killer. I hate it, but I guess it works.

[Keldeo333]

Just put Mew in E rank already. It sucks at everything it does.

Harsha edit: stop.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Keldeo333

Just put Mew in E rank already. It sucks at everything it does.

A few pages ago, you was defending Mew for S rank o.o Why are you wanting to put it on E rank now? Mew is an easy C rank, if not B rank.

It is still a good stallbreaker (Jellicent can do a similar set, and has better typing; but it's too slow and has less physical defense; cannot outrun Tentacruel except if it max invests in Speed, but it has to sacrifice bulk for this). The only thing that poses a problem for Mew on stall teams is Heatran, and even then, you can easily solve this using Aura Sphere/Seismic Toss instead of Psychic, or partner it with a Dugtrio.

While it appears to be outclassed by Celebi on the Nasty Plot department, Mew has a big advantage over Celebi: as it can use Psyshock, it can easily bypass the pink blobs. Celebi can only do this at +6 with Giga Drain, but Celebi risks being either paralyzed, thus stopping its sweep, or it can be Toxic stalled. Celebi can only safely setup on the pink blobs without having its sweep stopped cold if it's burned, but due to Natural Cure, it's hard to have a burned Celebi. Unless for some reason you run Heal Bell (I've already did this) you can easily break through the blobs, but you sacrifice coverage if you do this. I still think that Celebi has more advantages over Mew than Mew has over Celebi, but that doesn't mean that Mew is outclassed.

Lastly but not least, Mew can run a Baton Pass set. Celebi can also do this, but it lacks a way to boost Speed (Mew has Rock Polish). Gorebyss can easily pass Shell Smash, but Mew can boost and doesn't have to lower defenses; it doesn't need to run White Herb for this, and thus can use Leftovers, increasing its survivability.

[Tobes]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

Countering Scizor while blocking exactly one of five OU viable spinners is perhaps the smallest niche I can think of, making it a perfect example of a D-tier Pokemon.

As someone who has used Chandelure extensively I have to agree with this (although you somewhat underestimate its spinblocking capability). Chandelure is incredibly niche, ESPECIALLY if you're not using sun. And if you are using sun, then to make Chandelure worth it you need to run quick hazards, Ninetales, offensive threats, etc., forcing a very specific kind of team. Chandelure requires an inordinate amount of support to work at its prime potential and is very limited in role and to a lesser extent scope. It's not something that can be easily included on a successful team. D is in my opinion the appropriate rank.

[Dragonfruit]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

uh yeah im pretty sure victini fits in here. it's got 100/100/100 defenses and 100/100/100 offenses. thats pretty fukin awesome. vcreate is rly powerful and pretty much ohkos everything in sun (but it doesnt need to be in sun)... especially if its adamant, choice banded, or even charcoal on trick room ones. it forms a really good voltturn core with a lot of stuff like rotom-w and learns an electric move to take out water types. the crippling weakness is probably stealth rock.. but that's why it should be in C tier where you need rapid spin support. and also its one of a few offensive counters to rock polish genesect... which everyone is complaining about and its even going to get banned....

and if ur going to say rain kills it then uh... get a reality check. u can use ur own weather like hail or sun or even sand.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Virizion added to C-tier(?)

I'm not really sure if Virizion belongs in C-tier or D-Tier tbh. It was OK during BW1, but I don't see it being as viable after looking in on it some, Virizion was mainly used for its typing and its ability to counter rain teams - both of its niches have been destroyed more or less.

Breloom has gotten a lot more common thanks to Technician, and Virizion has found it very hard to compete against the shroom ever since than. Breloom is a lot frailer and slower than Virizion, which was the main reason why nobody used in in BW1, but when Technician got released the Speed issue was hardly a problem because it got Mach Punch, and while that is much weaker than a Close Combat, Breloom has more attack (therfore a stronger Grass STAB and Rock Coverage move) and outspeeds even Scarfed Pokemon. While Virizion has an advantage of bulk, Breloom gets Spore to shut down a potentially dangerous Pokemon, making it almost guaranteed to get a Swords Dance boost.

Virizion's typing is also notable for doing well against Rain teams and Sand Teams... or at least it was. The introduction of a Bird people call Tornadus-T being on a lot of Rain teams is not good at all for Virizion - it gets an effortless OHKO on Virizion. Keldeo isn't a very generous Pokemon either, since in the rain its +1 Hydro Pump is too much for a 4/0 Virizion, 2HKOing it - Secret Sword is a similar case, 2HKOing it regardless of a boost or item. These two Pokemon make up the "new face" of offensive rain, and Virizion being unable to deal with these two very well means it no longer is a good Pokemon to counter rain teams, and Toxicroak keeping its presence in OU doesn't help either since it resists everything Virizion usually runs. Its ability to counter Sand teams is initially useful, but Breloom actually does it a little bit better at doing this than Virizion - the ability to OHKO Tyranitar, Hippowdon (with enough seeds), Terrakion (after Stealth Rock), Scizor (62.5% of the time at +2 after Stealth Rock against 248/0 variants), and Rotom-W (at +2 - this includes 252/0 varaints) with Mach Punch (or for Hippowdon, Bullet Seed) on a simple Swords Dance set is better than Virizion's ability to do something mildly similar since it hits these Pokemon before they can even attempt to move. Virizion cannot do this, and risks getting forced out and loing its boosts or even getting OHKOed by Banded Terrakion provided you end up losing the speed tie. Sun teams absolutely demolish it, which is annoying.

Why am I not definite on my opinion? I haven't seen a single Virizion ever since it has dropped into UU, let alone ever since BW2 has been released. It has been losing a lot of usage ever since it has dropped, and it just really seems to have a small niche (Calm Minding) to barely justify its use. I don't know if this niche is a C-tier one or a D-tier one, so this is simply food for thought.

[alexwolf]

Why is Toxicroak in B rank? I haven't used it a lot, but since i am writing its analysis it woudn't hurt to see people's opinion. Do we all agree with its tiering? I believe B is a bit too high for the toad, especially as the only set that is good right now is the SD set, which isn't as good as many of the sets that other pokes in B rank run. Thoughts?

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Why is Toxicroak in B rank? I haven't used it a lot, but since i am writing its analysis it woudn't hurt to see people's opinion. Do we all agree with its tiering? I believe B is a bit too high for the toad, especially as the only set that is good right now is the SD set, which isn't as good as many of the sets that other pokes in B rank run. Thoughts?

Really, the best thing I can say about Toxicroak is he's a very good offensive counter to Keldeo, since there isn't much Keldeo can do to the toad. Aside from that, I've found him to be exceedingly average. I haven't used him, but I've seen a surprising resurgence of him on the ladder; I'm assuming it's in response to the rise of Keldeo. No Toxicroak has ever managed to do jack shit to me, but I won't comment on it's tiering since, as I said, I've never actually used the damn thing.

[Chou Toshio]

Not the topic of the discussion, but I'll back Bronzong for B-Rank. It's just such a unique support niche, nothing else is really like it. Landorus I / Landorus T / Garchomp / Salamence / Latios / Mamoswine / Dragonite / Gliscor / and others. It can't stop all of these 100% of the time, but it checks so much-- nothing else is really like it. Throwing up Stealth Rock, poisoning Politoads / Gastrodons that choose to stay on it, surviving Venusaur's HP Fire and throwing up a Rain Dance that clinches the game... even if it doesn't outright wall stuff, it can really throw a wrench in your opponents offense, and swing things back in your favor. Its natural bulk and unique set or resistances (and lack of weaknesses) makes it incredibly useful in pivoting.

Even its lack of recovery moves is abated by:
-Immunity to Spikes / T-Spikes
-SR Resistance
-Sand immunity
-Poison immunity
-The many Pokemon who can't even scratch it, and are forced to let it get more leftovers recovery as they switch out.

You can't expect Bronzong to be an insurmountable wall, and you can't rely on it the same way you rely on a Skarmory for instance. But there is just nothing else in the tier that can tank hits on both sides of the spectrum and from so many offensive threats. It's perfect for offensive teams that just need a bit of key support and a useful point for pivoting between resistances.

It's true that Bronzong has a hard time doing anything to a lot of opponents (Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Double Screen Espeon/Xatu being the most annoying to it). Sure, at times it can be setup bait.

But Team Preview + the best scarf revenge killers ever (Genosect, Landorus, Ditto, Garchomp, Terrakion) + the best Priority revenge killers ever (Scizor, Dragonite, Mamoswine), mean it is a lot harder in 5th gen to set up on Bronzong for anything meaningful than it was in 4th gen.

[SJCrew]

Originally Posted by Fat Dragonfruit

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

uh yeah im pretty sure victini fits in here. it's got 100/100/100 defenses and 100/100/100 offenses. thats pretty fukin awesome. vcreate is rly powerful and pretty much ohkos everything in sun (but it doesnt need to be in sun)... especially if its adamant, choice banded, or even charcoal on trick room ones. it forms a really good voltturn core with a lot of stuff like rotom-w and learns an electric move to take out water types. the crippling weakness is probably stealth rock.. but that's why it should be in C tier where you need rapid spin support. and also its one of a few offensive counters to rock polish genesect... which everyone is complaining about and its even going to get banned....

and if ur going to say rain kills it then uh... get a reality check. u can use ur own weather like hail or sun or even sand.

On the other hand, let's look at the description for B:

Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

It does not sweep or wall most of OU, but with Sun up, it can proceed to pick off members of the enemy team one or two at a time. It straight up counters Pokemon that Sun teams would normally have trouble taking out, including Conkeldurr, Reuniclus, and Volcarona. Dragons can't even check him properly, as V-create picks them all off in the Sun after SR damage.

It's only real flaw is that it requires a dedicated Sun team, much like Venusaur. But with is threat level being extremely high under those conditions...B-rank sounds just about right.

[Lady Alex]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Why is Toxicroak in B rank? I haven't used it a lot, but since i am writing its analysis it woudn't hurt to see people's opinion. Do we all agree with its tiering? I believe B is a bit too high for the toad, especially as the only set that is good right now is the SD set, which isn't as good as many of the sets that other pokes in B rank run. Thoughts?

I don't see a problem with Toxicroak in B. SD Croak is pretty effective right now. It's an amazing Keldeo counter and deals well with many of the common threats on standard HO and sand teams. It sets up on Deoxys-D bar T-wave and psycho boost variants. At +2 it beats Genesect, Terrakion, Dragonite (after rocks), Breloom, Lati twins (debatable, since latios frequently carries trick if you try to sucker punch it and croak will lose to sub CM latias), and Salamence is 1hko'd after rocks. There are also several more fast, frail pokemon that get 1hko'd by +2 sucker punch. It works really well on teams with Tornadus-T and Dugtrio, who can easily take care of Ninetales.

[The Unlucky one]

I think it is about time that we discuss the sunmons. When I mean sunmons i mean chlorophyll sweepers. Lilligant, Victreebel, Sawsbuck (Jumpluff and Tangrowth???). I believe that they may have some different rankings. I feel that Victreebel goes in the C tier.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.

I think that final part really shows Victreebel even though it has that small niche of weather ball. Sawsbuck i feel is a D tier. It has a decent niche but I feel is not that great of a poke. Absolutely not on the level of Bliss and Cress. Lilligant is kind of a tossup between the two. Lilligant is such a very underrated poke and I have used it extensively. Lilligant does suffer crippling flaws in the form of a movepool though meaning it gets walled by Heatran + Dragons/Bug+Steels (Depends on your HP type). The rest of them are kinda iffy. Tangrowth kinda got a buff from regenerator but is still a D/E tier. Shiftry and Jumpluff have niches but dont function well (Jumpluff is rising in popularity though). Tropius is terrible, cant do anything and is 10x eclipsed by the sun sweepers that it is fail tier.

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

As someone who has used Chandelure extensively I have to agree with this (although you somewhat underestimate its spinblocking capability). Chandelure is incredibly niche, ESPECIALLY if you're not using sun. And if you are using sun, then to make Chandelure worth it you need to run quick hazards, Ninetales, offensive threats, etc., forcing a very specific kind of team. Chandelure requires an inordinate amount of support to work at its prime potential and is very limited in role and to a lesser extent scope. It's not something that can be easily included on a successful team. D is in my opinion the appropriate rank.

Ouch, that hurts. Thats funny since I think Sub+3 attacks Chandelure can be so good in this meta as it gets a lot of chances to set up the sub. Maybe it is just because my fav team sucks against it (Lilligant/Victini/Mamo/Thundurus-t/Ninetales/Virizion)

[Rayquaza_]

Kyurem-B should stay A tier.
Mixed LO sets have zero safe switch-ins, resist berry sets can lure and OHKO potential counters, good ol' choice sets if played intelligently (re: don't spam Outrage early in the match when Steel-types are still around) are excellent late-game cleaners and it can even pull a pretty decent specially defensive set that only fears Specs Draco Meteors which 1. are incredibly easy to see coming and 2. dragons aren't going to switch on Kyu-B anytime soon.

The only kind of support it needs is Toxic Spikes removal (SR and Spikes aren't that big of a deal) which can be said for any grounded pokemon that isn't a steel or poison type and I can see quite a few of them in that tier.

It's amazing how versatile a pokemon with such a shallow movepool can be.

[Master of the Six Kings]

Originally Posted by Fat HyperMeSoul

Let's be honest for a second. Nothing below A tier is actually viabale in OU.

I absolutely agree. Scizor (#5 in usage), Gliscor (#9 in usage) and all the middle usage Pokemon with highly specified niches (Alakazam, Forry, Tentacruel, Volc and Mamo) definately have no place whatsoever in the metagame. And the number 1 sun sweeper (VENASAUR), is so bad its not even funny hahaha.

On a more serious note, Toxicroak is pretty difficult to quantify in the tiers for me. He's just so hit and miss in actually doing anything, though at the same time his uniqueness in the metagame has kept him OU while three other lower end fighting types have dropped off (actually only 7 spots under Keldeo, wtf >_>) so its hard to deny that it can function.

Any more thought with Victini? I'm still solid for B tier, as the Pokemon in C just scream mediocre in comparison (although i like Abomasnow myself).

[Shiny Mew]

I think Victini should be B tier. In sun it wrecks everything in it's way, Although yeah it needs Sun support and Rapid Spin to be at it's best but it's worth all the trouble as there's no stopping Victini with the right support. The Trick Room set is very underrated seriously and it's great right now with all these HO teams going around. Very difficult to stop Victini under Trick Room and Sun, not to mention how easy it is to set up Trick Room due to HP investment. Victini can run a nice number of sets effectively which makes it very unpredictable. Choice Band/Scarf, Special, Trick Room, Final Gambit, Special, Support. Victini also happens to be a good offensive check to Genesect (if it means anything lol)

[sebixxl]

Quote:
Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
Agreed, Sharpedo is quite the underrated threat this generation. It does have problems with bulky Steels and the ubiquity of Mach Punch, but it can quite easily clean up in the late-game.

I´am sceconding to add sharpedo to B-tier. Combined with the right lures, or just a second sweeper to soften steals and/or take out breeloom it´s a very dangerous sweeper.
Got nice coverage in Waterfall (should be rainboosted imo), Crunsh and Zen-Headbut (for keldeo and breloom switch ins)/Ice Fang (for dragons) or Earthquake outside of rain against steels, and its ability is doing very well in this fast metagame.

[The Unlucky one]

Originally Posted by Fat sebixxl

Quote:
Sharpedo added to B-tier(?)
Agreed, Sharpedo is quite the underrated threat this generation. It does have problems with bulky Steels and the ubiquity of Mach Punch, but it can quite easily clean up in the late-game.

I´am sceconding to add sharpedo to B-tier. Combined with the right lures, or just a seond sweeper to soften steals and/or take out breeloom it´s a very dangerous sweeper.
Got nice coverage ind Waterfall (should be rainboosted imo), Crunsh and Zen-Headbut (for keldeo and breloom switch ins)/Ice Fang (for dragons) or Earthquake outside of rain against steels, and it´s ability is doing very well in this fast metagame.

I second this, it needs a decent amount of support, but can really wreck havoc. B tier maybe a little weird as it is the same tier as scizor and other great pokes.

[RaikouLover]

I have a few issues with these tiers.

Conkeldurr needs to go up to B rank. Bulk Up with Guts is just too good. It is not eclipsed by anything above it. Don't bullshit me saying Toxicroak as Toxi requires more support than Conk.

Metagross - How in the Frick is Metagross so low? B rank. Metagross needs NO support to effectively run a Choice Band set in OU. Steel is ALWAYS a good type to have in OU.. Nothing switches into Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Bullet Punch Choice Band set in OU. Don't bullshit me and tell me that is not viable in OU. Then tell me what in OU actually OHKOs Metagross? Don't worry I'll wait. Someone please enlighten me on Metagross' "flaws."

Vaporeon - I'd move Vaporeon to B rank as well. It's kind of a "slap on a rain team" with no negative consequences. It can hit hard, phaze, wall, you name it.

Scizor - A Rank always. Swords Dance / Roost / BP / Superpower is timeless and needs absolutely no team support. It still revenges shit with Bullet Punch and with Roost and bulk it is a largely independent set that can exist on any team with no help. Hell, I would put it on an A-S borderline if there was one. Scizor isn't walled like half the shit on B rank is.. this is absolutely absurd.

Hitmontop - I vouch for Technitop always. C Rank. Technitop is a nightmare to a large amount of Offensive Teams right now. It also doesn't give a fizz about Genesect

Sawsbuck - C tier. Sawsbuck is the best sun revenge killer in the game. Life Orb Double Edge revenges every non-resistant Offensive pokemon in the game.

Arcanine - D Tier - It has a small niche on sun teams because of Flash Fire, but no one has figured it out yet. Heatran is generally better, but Arcanine isn't walled by anything. Good luck switching into Flare Blitz / Wild Charge / Close Combat / Extremespeed Life Orb set. After a Flash Fire, Flare Blitz actually OHKOs things like Dragonite.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

I have a few issues with these tiers.

Conkeldurr needs to go up to B rank. Bulk Up with Guts is just too good. It is not eclipsed by anything above it. Don't bullshit me saying Toxicroak as Toxi requires more support than Conk.

It has problems dealing with super-effective and special neutral STAB attacks; Hurricane completely destroys him, Keldeo OHKOes with Hydro Pump even outside rain, and in fact, rain-boosted Water-type attacks make Conkeldurr cry. It's not going to survive any Psychic- or Flying-type attack. Also, too many fast things resist Mach Punch to it be useful against faster threats. Speaking of Mach Punch, Conkeldurr faces a lot of competition with Breloom, which has a more powerful Mach Punch due to Technician, a secondary Grass-type STAB, and acess to Spore.

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Metagross - How in the Frick is Metagross so low? B rank. Metagross needs NO support to effectively run a Choice Band set in OU. Steel is ALWAYS a good type to have in OU.. Nothing switches into Meteor Mash / Zen Headbutt / Hammer Arm / Bullet Punch Choice Band set in OU. Don't bullshit me and tell me that is not viable in OU. Then tell me what in OU actually OHKOs Metagross? Don't worry I'll wait. Someone please enlighten me on Metagross' "flaws."

CB Metagross face harsh competition from CB Scizor, which has U-Turn and receives STAB from that too! So, it can easily escape from Magnezone. It also has a stronger Bullet Punch due to Technician. Also, most Ground- and Fire-type attacks will OHKO Metagross with no problems. If you don't have these two, don't worry, rain-boosted Water-attacks will do the job. In fact, Keldeo's Choice Specs-boosted Hydro Pump always OHKOes (even outside rain).

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Vaporeon - I'd move Vaporeon to B rank as well. It's kind of a "slap on a rain team" with no negative consequences. It can hit hard, phaze, wall, you name it.

Its typing overlaps with Politoed, generally it's hard to run Vaporeon because it brings no new resistances at all, while compounding the Grass- and Electric-type weakness. If you use Vaporeon offensively, you have to use a defensive Politoed, while if you use Vaporeon as a supporter, you have to use a Choice Politoed.

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Scizor - A Rank always. Swords Dance / Roost / BP / Superpower is timeless and needs absolutely no team support. It still revenges shit with Bullet Punch and with Roost and bulk it is a largely independent set that can exist on any team with no help. Hell, I would put it on an A-S borderline if there was one. Scizor isn't walled like half the shit on B rank is.. this is absolutely absurd.

Fire-type attacks easily end Scizor's life. A lot of would-be easy prey can defeat Scizor if they run a Fire-type attack. For example, a Tyranitar with Fire Blast can surprise Scizor. Don't worry if you cannot run a Fire-type move due to using a Rain team, for example; as Keldeo, a newly introduced threat, can OHKO Scizor with Hydro Pump even outside rain. In fact, Scizor hates Water-type attacks, even though it's not weak to them, and hates having to deal with Water-type Pokémon because they resist Bullet Punch. It's actually hard to sweep with Scizor because so many threats resist Bullet Punch, and very few are weak to them, so you need to weaken the opponent's team before sweeping. Scizor has much more opportunity cost than it had in the past. Also, currently it faces competition with Genesect, which has MUCH better coverage, but I think that Genesect will probably be banned anyway.

Originally Posted by Fat RaikouLover

Sawsbuck - C tier. Sawsbuck is the best sun revenge killer in the game. Life Orb Double Edge revenges every non-resistant Offensive pokemon in the game.

Sawsbuck is very comparable to Stoutland, as both are Normal-types that have an ability that doubles their Speed under a certain weather condition. That said, Sawsbuck shares some problems with Stoutland. It can't revenge kill effectively outside sun, and Normal is a shitty STAB - at least it has a secondary Grass-type STAB to backup that. I generally prefer more consistent revenge killers, that while don't have the same speed as Sawsbuck on sun, at least doesn't lose their Speed outside that.

[PDC]

Conkelldurr is something we both can agree on. Conkelldurr is a lot better in BW2 than in BW1. It now has access to Ice Punch as a more reliable way to beat Gliscor and Dragons, while also gaining Iron Fist to increase versatility and make SubPunch a much stronger set. Conkelldurr can also serve as a nifty counter to Genesect as it doesn't fear much that it can throw at it. Conkelldurr is something that has a niche over other more premier fighting sweepers like Terrakion. Priority is one, and that ability to run defensively minded sets is also a pretty cool thing. It can break through Gliscor without the need for Rock Gem like Terrakion and also grants it the ability to now smash incoming Tornadus - T more reliably. B rank for this guy, he is pretty cool in this metagame and is really only overshadowed because people believe he is inferior.

Metagross is not really terrible, as it does have some niches in the metagame like taking on Kyurem - B, being able to smash and Pursuit Latios, having a beautiful steel typing, and also being able to set up Stealth Rock. But there is something wrong with this picture. Metagross is outclassed defensively by Jirachi and Bronzong who serve as better walls than Metagross. They also both set up Stealth Rock, but they both have better bulk than Metagross and can take on the exact same threats but better. Metagross is really outclassed in a defensive roll as it's Stealth Rocker set died mostly due to a lack of a lead metagame. This leaves us to it's offenses. It has viability in that Choice Band set you mentioned but it also has notorious flaws. Metagross has to deal with Meteor Mash and Hammer Arm misses and Bullet Punch's weak power. Earthquake is not a very good move to be locked into, and neither is Ice Punch. Zen Headbutt is strong but again has subpar accuracy. All these types are commonly resisted and easy to take advantage of. Metagross didn't earn anything new and really doesn't earn anything from the weather wars either. It dislikes the power Fire and Water attacks being thrown around and can easily be taken advantage of by these teams. Metagross does ok against sand, but it doesn't do great against it either. Metagross gained nothing and it has to take a choice as to whether or not to give up hitting certain threats depending on the moves chosen, making it a very limiting hitter that can be walled. Plus Metagross wasn't happy about the Explosion nerd either.

Everything else I agree on. Hitmontop being a little shakey on though. It has niches but is generally outclassed. D Rank here if anything.

[Tabuu]

Alrighty, looks like this topic is moving forward again, with some interesting Pokemon under scrutiny :)
LET'S DO THIS:

Conkeldurr
With an astounding base 140 Attack, coupled with very solid 105/95/65 defenses Conkeldurr is a threat. This guy may be slow but he packs a heavy damaging, solid coverage priority move in Mach Punch. Guts or Iron Fist could also boost the power of the move. He also has Drain Punch which gives him longevity. Being a Fighting Type, he carries an awesome STAB. He also has a movepool large enough for him to deal with all of this checks and counters (though not all in one set, mind you).
So why isn't he in the higher ranking? This metagame seems to be harsh on our buddy Conk. Tornadus-T is explanation enough. Offensive rain and Sun can smash Conkeldurr quite easily (to make it worse many sweepers on Drizzle and Drought seem to be Specially Oriented, which really doesn't help). Conkeldurr is dangerous once he gets a boost or two. But before that Conkeldurr is very manageable. Physically defensive Celebi packing Psychic (that'd be me teehee) easily ruins Conkeldurr. Jellicent will crumble Conk into pieces if it doesn't have Payback. His "crippling flaw" persay, would have to be that Conkeldurr can not hold its own too well in this Generation. Conkeldurr is very unique in its own and definitely isn't eclipsed by other 'Mons IMO. However, my final verdict would be "Let's leave him in C-World".

Metagross
B-Tier? Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Dangerous isn't really a word that falls in line with Metagross...
His Stealth Rock set? I feel Deoxys-D is better at setting up due to superior Defense stats and speed along with utility. (However Metagross has a much better typing)
Skarmory and Forretress laugh at Metagross being able to taunt or spin everything Metagross tries. Meta can decide to run HP Fire or something but this would leave him open to other 'Mons. TBH it's probably better to allow other teammates to deal with those two.
His CB Set takes a laughing from Slowbro who only fears Thunder Punch. But then again, he can take one, switch out, Regenerate, then proceed to go into Gliscor, Landorus, Thundurus-T, Breloom, etc.
Agility isn't intimidating either. He still gets outsped by a host of Pokemon and due to the lack of CB, really can't open up holes and struggles to sweep. Gliscor and Slowbro are able to take on Metagross if it lacks the appropriate move.
In general weather (a dominant force) really makes Meta's life hell:
"Weather teams are a particular nuisance to the Metagross's sheen. Sun teams help in diminishing the power of Water-type moves, but it is a double-edged sword as it doubles Metagross's Fire-type weakness. Venusaur can use the Chlorophyll boost to put Metagross to sleep and set up with Growth. Rain teams don't do it any favors either besides eliminating Metagross's Fire-type weakness. While comfortable in sandstorm, Metagross faces significant threats here. Sandslash can revenge kill most offensive variants of Metagross; a Jolly LO Sandslash deals 93.7 - 110.92%, so with a layer of Spikes, Metagross is done for. Landorus, an already threatening foe, becomes more frightening thanks to the Sand Force boost under sandstorm. Special variants of Landorus are popping up too thanks to the release of Sheer Force; these variants target Metagross' weaker Special Defense stat. A max HP and Defense Impish Hippowdon can take most abuse from Metagross and either Slack Off the damage or threaten Metagross with STAB Earthquake." (Smogon Analysis)
Verdict? "D" best choice is D-Rank

[Whew it's good to be back....Kinda getting tired of analyzing haha due to laziness...I think this is as far as I want to go right now]

[Deluks917]

I really wish Metagross got fire Punch.

[PK Gaming]

=====
update
=====

Mew added to C-tier
Victini added to C-tier
Sharpedo added to C-tier
Ditto added to B-tier
Aerodactyl added to D-tier
Amoongus added to C-tier
Slowbro added to C-tier
Cobalion added to C-tier
Virizion added to C-tier
Chandelure added to D-tier

The first round of potential changes(+ Chandelure) have been implemented!

• I decided against dropping Kyurem-B from A-tier as there wasn't enough discussion to warrant the drop. It's a controversial Pokemon so I want to see more discussion on it!
• I was undecided on Victini, but I decided on placing it in C-tier for now. It's definitely a bordeline C-tier Pokemon, it's effectiveness in Sun can't be emphasised enough.
• There was barely any discussion on Ditto so I went ahead and dropped it into B-tier. If you've got any issues with that speak up!

============
Possible Changes
============

Metagross up from D-tier ==> C-tier
Conkeldurr up from C-tier ==> B-tier

It looks like our candidates for a tier change are currently being discussed right now. I've been thinking of moving Metagross up for a while actually. It's typing lets it check Dragon-types (always a plus) and it has the distinction of being one of the better Latios / Kyurem-B checks in the game, D-tier seems a bit too harsh for it. I'm going to be very strict on moving Conkeldurr to B-tier however.

Despite getting some really good moves (that would have definitely helped it in BW1) it got nerfed hard in BW2. In BW1, it was actually somewhat very difficult to OHKO Conkeldurr, but BW2 introduced a significant amount of Pokemon that could straight up OHKO it, and it has trouble setting up outside of defensive walls. Not to mention things like Lati@s gaining way more popularity, and the decline of defensive teams in general hurt Conkeldurr's viability. BU You don't have time to set up bulk up (you'll be hard pressed to set up against HO teams too). I'd argue that Machamp is better than Conkeldurr in BW2 since Dynamic Punch will always introduce more luck into a match, which can come in handy (you have a 50% chance of straight up losing your machamp check, whereas most Conkeldurr checks can switch in for free).