The OU Viability Ranking thread

[LucaroarkZ]

nice contextomy there

Anyway, I'll admit I haven't really seen many people using Wobb (only #83 in most recent stats), but I have used it and found it mediocre every time I did. I absolutely hated the fact that it had to take damage in order to deal damage; Also, if the opponent sees Wobbuffet in the team preview, I don't think they're going to send out their Scarf Terrakion carelessly. I certainly wouldn't. IMO, trapping and killing revenge killers is an very, very small niche, and I believe I said this at one point anyway:

Gothitelle can beat Choiced users locked into the appropriate move as well, but there's a key here: It can deal damage without having to take damage.

So, I'm thinking Gothitelle has some use against offensive teams (however little use that is), but loads more utility against Stall than Wobbuffet (who is pretty useless against stall). Wobbuffet, however, does have a niche in being able to support setup sweepers with Encore, but I've found that it still can't do that consistently enough (read: Counter/Mirror Coat/Encore mindgames, not gonna win these every time)

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I doubt if Gothitelle and Woubbuffet should be really compared. The former does well against walls, and the latter is used against offensive threats like Choice Scarf. Wobbuffet is actually pretty good and hard to deal with, and I agree with placing it on C, if not B. If your choice user cannot at least 2HKO Wobbuffet, goodbye to it. Even CB Tyranitar must think twice about trying to defeat Wobbuffet, as although very, very tiny, Wobbuffet with a neutral nature and 200 EV on Defense has 10% chance to survive Crunch! This should prove how hard is to OHKO this thing. Fortunately, Wobbuffet is easier to deal with than last generation.

[ginganinja]

Also, if the opponent sees Wobbuffet in the team preview, I don't think they're going to send out their Scarf Terrakion carelessly.

Fine, I bring in my Volcarona for free vs a -2 Latios. Your Scarf Terrakion is the only thing that can revenge me @ +1. Basically, you are forced to bring it in to revenge, and then I have an excellent chance to go for a trap with Wobb. Sure, the above scenario is subject to whether volc predicts Terrakion staying in against it but the point is clear, its easier said than done to keep your revenge killer back, and when against (or using an) offensive teams, trapping and eliminating the opponents revenge killer, is no small a thing. It becomes even harder when you use 2 pokemon that get revenged by the 1 pokemon, and sac the first one to lure in the revenge killer, wobb traps, and then the second sweeper can set up and not worry about getting revenge killed.

Sure, taking damage to do damage sucks, but you are not picking up Wobb for that, you are picking it up for trapping and eliminating one problem pokemon that troubles your team, so that a sweeper of yours can sweep / set up more easily. Go see Gamestar's Sun RMT (BW1 but still) for an example of how Wobb can perhapes be used successfully.

[Wizarus]

Wobbuffet is definately C-material. Potentially B if Genesect gets banned, because it really is a great pokemon for set-up sweepers. It also trolls Bulky set-up users like Jirachi, Latias, and Reuniclus, and has enough Bulk to survive things like CB TTar's Crunch. Requires a bit of prediction though, and is hit hard by Taunt, but that's what teammates are for.(almost every good user of Taunt in OU is Rotom-W weak)

[The Unlucky one]

not to mention wobbuffet can give a free turn. You can encore a pokemon that is setting up. They can't switch out as you can switch into something like a Smeargle. Now the smeargle can get a free smashpass into something scary like Gene or Thundurus-T (All credit to Mapledoom's Strat)

[Lavos Spawn]

Aerodactyl is not a D Tier Pokemon. I've had great success with it in the past, and I would be willing to contend it's B Tier at least, but for now, let's talk about moving it up to C Tier.

Aero does have its drawbacks, and I'm not ignoring those. Its defenses aren't great, its movepool is scarce, and its typing is somewhat unfortunate considering how prevalent bulky Water-types are in this metagame. However, it does have some very redeeming factors, one of which is its base 130 Speed. This Speed level makes it the fastest Stealth Rocks user in the entire game. Azelf, Terrakion, and Garchomp all pale in comparison. Another redeeming factor is its access to Taunt, making it a valuable option for neutralizing other common leads like Deoxys-D and Terrakion. Finally, it has access to the revered EdgeQuake combo, giving it coveted Rock/Ground coverage that hits just about everything for neutral damage, the exception being Bronzong. Not to mention, if you don't want to run Earthquake, you can surprise common Rapid Spinners like Forretress with other options like Fire Blast.

I used Aerodactyl as a lead for my hyper-offensive team in two World Cup of Pokemon games back in the summer, and I won both thanks to its speed and versatility, Fire Blast catching one of my opponents' Forretress off-guard for a OHKO that later won me the match. I continue to use Aero today, and it has never disappointed me. Petitioning for its elevation to C Tier, and we'll go from there.

[Electrolyte]

As one of the few people who actively use Cobalion, I definitely think that it suits B-Tier better than C. Cobalion's excellent typing, physical bulk, and speed make it a very useful support and offensive tank, capable of taking hits from all of the tier's dragons and hitting back hard with an HP Ice. Its Taunt and typing really go well together at stopping stall, since pokemon like Ferrothorn or Skarmory can't really do much after they're Taunted, and can be eliminated with a few super effective moves. One of the best and absolutely most useful thing about Cobalion is the fact that it 'beats' Deoxys-Defense. Its Terrak-fast Taunt prevents even the fastest Deoxys from setting up nada, and Volt Switch allows you to quickly pivot to a set up sweeper to abuse Deoxys's weak seismic tosses or to scout a switch in that thinks they can handle Cobalion. Cobalion itself is a splendid lead- with a fast Taunt and the ability to set Stealth Rock, and then pivot to another member, possibly forming a Volt Turn core. It has decent offenses as well; 90 Atk and SpA certainly can do work to a weakened team, and with great coverage in VSwitch/CC/HP Ice, not much can take two hits. Cobalion's nature is sweet as well, x4 resisting Dark, Rock, and Bug, and x2 resisting Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Grass, Normal, as well as an immunity to poison.

With these traits, it can function very effectively in today's metagame. It's Volt Switch, Taunt and Stealth Rock are perfect for Volt Turn cores, and it has great synergy with common pivots like Landorus-T or Rotom-W. Its typing lets it handle all weather starters well (with the exception of scarfed leads), since Tyranitar and Abomasnow, and Ninetales are disposed of through CC, and Politoed can be Volt Switched in the face. It's a great lure too, since many people send in their physical walls just to be Taunted it pivoted like Forretress or plain KO'd like Gliscor. The only drawbacks are it's slightly lower SpD, vulnerability to Genesect, Fire, and Ground type moves, and its lower power compared to a few other pokemon. With the right support, however, it can efficiently function as one of the most underestimated yet effective support pivots in the metagame.

[Stalltaria]

I agree with Electrolyte, Underrated. Very very pivotal, and excellent at nabbing suprise OHKO's.

[The Unlucky one]

Originally Posted by Fat Electrolyte

As one of the few people who actively use Cobalion, I definitely think that it suits B-Tier better than C. Cobalion's excellent typing, physical bulk, and speed make it a very useful support and offensive tank, capable of taking hits from all of the tier's dragons and hitting back hard with an HP Ice. Its Taunt and typing really go well together at stopping stall, since pokemon like Ferrothorn or Skarmory can't really do much after they're Taunted, and can be eliminated with a few super effective moves. One of the best and absolutely most useful thing about Cobalion is the fact that it 'beats' Deoxys-Defense. Its Terrak-fast Taunt prevents even the fastest Deoxys from setting up nada, and Volt Switch allows you to quickly pivot to a set up sweeper to abuse Deoxys's weak seismic tosses or to scout a switch in that thinks they can handle Cobalion. Cobalion itself is a splendid lead- with a fast Taunt and the ability to set Stealth Rock, and then pivot to another member, possibly forming a Volt Turn core. It has decent offenses as well; 90 Atk and SpA certainly can do work to a weakened team, and with great coverage in VSwitch/CC/HP Ice, not much can take two hits. Cobalion's nature is sweet as well, x4 resisting Dark, Rock, and Bug, and x2 resisting Ghost, Dragon, Steel, Grass, Normal, as well as an immunity to poison.

With these traits, it can function very effectively in today's metagame. It's Volt Switch, Taunt and Stealth Rock are perfect for Volt Turn cores, and it has great synergy with common pivots like Landorus-T or Rotom-W. Its typing lets it handle all weather starters well (with the exception of scarfed leads), since Tyranitar and Abomasnow, and Ninetales are disposed of through CC, and Politoed can be Volt Switched in the face. It's a great lure too, since many people send in their physical walls just to be Taunted it pivoted like Forretress or plain KO'd like Gliscor. The only drawbacks are it's slightly lower SpD, vulnerability to Genesect, Fire, and Ground type moves, and its lower power compared to a few other pokemon. With the right support, however, it can efficiently function as one of the most underestimated yet effective support pivots in the metagame.

My problem with Cobalion is that there are some teams which Cobalion can offer little to no help on a team. Cobalion also suffers a Fighting weakness which is terrible. I understand that Cobalion is an OUTSTANDING Pivot. But, It does have some issues and primarily used on voltturn based teams. It is not as multifunctional as other B Tier pokes. I agree that Cobalion is great, just dont think its b tier material considering how many other good pokes are in B.

[Remedy]

"Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks."


I think Weavile fits in the C rank at least.

Pros :
- A great base Atk of 120, combined with a decent movepool (the combo Dark + Low Kick). And with its offensive typing, he can easily take the weak threats.

- The best, arguably, priority move in the game. Stabbed. Killing Dragons, Genies. Thats is to say a large part of the metagame's threats. And it kills Breloom before he Mach Punch you (with SR damages).

- The faster Dark typed Pursuiter. And the Pursuiter with the ratio Atk/Spe closest to 1 in OU.

- A really fast pokemon, able to outspeed Tornadus-T and Pursuit/IcePunch. Able to outspeed Starmie, Gengar, Espeon and all these weak but fast pokemon that can be killed by a Pursuit even without trying to escape.


Cons :

- Weakness to SR

- Weakness to 2 priority moves used in OU : Bullet Punch and Mach Punch

- Frail

- His movepool lacks high base moves. His strongest stab are Ice Punch and Night Shade. Thus, he struggles against things like Bulky Waters/Steels that he can't touch super effectively. Think about the highly played Jirachi and Rotom-W if they have some HP or Def investment.



////


But he can still perform to do his job. Since he's there to either clean late game, or trap paper pokemons, or revenge rampaging dragons.
To me he can really sweep a large part of the metagame, but it is needed to include him in a specific strategy because he probably won't be able to come in and out often.
However as mentionned as the last "CON" he should stick to revenge/trap/stop relatively weak pokemons that I talk about after.
I saw Infernape in the tier and I thought this would fit Weavile pretty well.
It's a pokemon with really good stats, the only one able to both Pursuit (while outspeeding everything he needs to Pursuit) and revenge with a strong Priority move.
As I said he can take down really potent threats like ANY genie, ANY dragon, ANY psychic type (like magic bouncer, he outspeed Alakazam), almost any Ghost (he needs Night Shade for Jellicent), Breloom, Terrakion, Heatran, Tyranitar, Venusaur (Banded IceShard does ~75%), etc. !

Pair him with a Keldeo or a Jellicent and all his weakness will be mitigated easily. The more I play this pokemon, the more I find him useful.
I believe someone used him in a RMT filled with "dark horses". I also use him as I try to climb the ladder and get the reqs.

I invite people to try this pokemon, a LifeOrb set or a CB one is really effective.

EDIT : Forgot some Cons SJCrew pointed.

[SJCrew]

I agree with Weavile in the quickly-approaching-bloated C-rank. As long as you are not trying to Swords Dance sweep, he will not often disappoint in doing what he sets out to accomplish. However, for the few things he traps, he has an incredible headcount of nemeses, which include but are not limited to: any Steel neutral to Low Kick. -___- I've used him on my Sun teams in the past to prevent Starmie and Jellicent from bullying Forretress.

[/B/utterfree]

I really think Metagross should stay in D Rank.

Despite it having a good Attack, that means little when both Jirachi and Bronzong outclass it completely as a Steel-type who can tank hits from Dragons like Kyurem-B. It does have the tools needed to perform, but to use them is more trouble than its worth most of the time.

I dunno, maybe I just can't use Metagross properly worth spit. He's my favorite Pseudolegendary, but he's still a very mediocre Pokemon at any rate.

[shrang]

Yeah, fuck Metagross, it can stay exactly where it is. Everyone needs to know that it's just mediocre in this metagame. I have no idea what people see in it apart from the fact that it's a pseudo-legendary. I was on PS tonight and some guy asked what was a good Pokemon to defend against Dragon-types. The answer basically boiled down to Steel-types. We all ended up naming the Steel-types in the metagame. I pretty much went "Jirachi, Bronzong, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Forretress, Scizor, Genesect, and *sigh* Metagross". I'm not trying to pick on the guy, but he basically went "Great, I'll use Metagross".

I mean what the hell? That's like saying "I got a $200,000 voucher to spend on a car, I could pick a Merc, a Beamer, a Porsche, a Lambo, or a Hyundai. Hm... I'll pick the Hyundai".

[Turtle Soup]

Well if someone has to ask the questions what can wall dragon types he most likely doesn't have a great understanding of the metagame, and new people generally tend to use pokemon that they like/think that are cool.

[youngjake93]

My long posts always get eaten by "you are no longer logged in" =[

Rotom W and Thundurus T do not deserve to be that high. Their main STAB provides a ridiculous amount of free switch-ins and they both run a move that has a habit of missing with a low PP. Thundurus-T can't get through special walls and doesn't have enough coverage. Scarf Rotom-W can easily be locked into the wrong move and Bulky Rotom-W has to rely on Pain Split.

Alakazam and Celebi are pretty much unusable due to Genesect. Things were fine when they could outspeed Scizor.

Sheer Force Landorus-I and Low Sweep Breloom are at least as good as anything Genesect and Terrakion can offer. These two can also fit nicely onto almost any team. Landorus and Breloom can also run a bunch of completely different sets to throw the opponent off. I don't know what other criteria you could go off of.

If Sharpedo, Mew, Cobalion, Virizion, Aerodactyl, etc get to be on this list, then where are Azumarill, Smeargle and Quagsire? The three I just mentioned have a much more obvious niche in OU.

I also think that Darmanitan should be in at least C-tier if not B-tier. There are plenty of Pokemon on the list that are ruined worse by rain than Darmanitan is and plenty that are ruined much much worse by Stealth Rocks. Outside of rain, Sheer Force STAB Flare Blitz destroys everything and combined with Earthquake/Rock Slide, Superpower and U-turn Darmanitan can take on a lot of OU. There are other pretty good lower-tier Pokemon, but Darmanitan really stands out.

[PDC]

Rotom-W is very good in this metagame and offers valuable options to many teams. While it may seem as if Rotom-W is a terrible Pokemon at first to some due to his low HP, he is a great pivot for both offensive and defensive teams alike. His typing gives him a resistance to Flying, Water, Ice, Fire, and his ability gifts him with an immunity to ground. For many teams he acts as a check to Landorus - I, Tornadus - T, Politoed, Heatran, Volcarona, Landorus - T, Tentacruel, and Keldeo all on one. Rotom-W also can provide momentum through the gift of Volt Switch, being able to gain th upper hand if he is in a bad position. Rotom-W is one of those Pokemon that has many uses and can do them all well in a team. It deserves A Rank because of all the roles it fills and how well it does them.

[youngjake93]

0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs 128 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 39.19% - 46.15%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 128 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 39.19% - 46.15%

I've never had that happen before! Two moves do the EXACT same damage. Haha just felt like sharing.
Anyway, Gyarados can do everything you said besides check Tornadus-T. It can even provide momentum with Substitute, Dragon Dance, Intimidate, or Moxie. Dragonite without Stealth Rocks can do all those things too.
Also worth noting is that Aerodactyl can do everything on that list that didn't involve a water-type. Look where Aerodactyl is listed.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Where should we put Mienshao on this list? I'd say probably C-Rank at the very least.

Mienshao is quite good, tbh. It has a ridiculously strong Hi Jump Kick coming off of 125 Attack, which by default makes it pretty powerful. It's got Stone Edge for coverage like any Fighting-type.

To top it all off, Mienshao's got U-Turn as well as Regenerator. This makes it a great scout, not to mention it's got some high speed to boot. This means it can ward off damage from hazards, LO, Sand, and Hail, while also keeping up the pressure. Even better, it sports a nice 95 SpA, which means it can effectively run HP Ice to maim Gliscor and Dragon-types. That's pretty good.

Of course, I've got to list some cons as well to support this. It has a Flying weakness, which means "Tornadus-T can OHKO!". Also, it's speed isn't exactly the best, although good. There are faster things. And it has no way to deal with Ghosts not named Gengar/Chandelure. Lack of way to hit Jelli hard is pretty bad.

Overall, I'd say Mienshao has a nice place in C-Rank.

[Yauboio]

One quick other thing about wobbuffet is that if it takes a u-turn which it most likely will at one point and uses counter it will often OHKO the incoming counter to Wobbuffet.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs 128 HP/0 Def Rotom-W: 39.19% - 46.15%
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 128 HP/0 SpDef Rotom-W: 39.19% - 46.15%

I've never had that happen before! Two moves do the EXACT same damage. Haha just felt like sharing.
Anyway, Gyarados can do everything you said besides check Tornadus-T. It can even provide momentum with Substitute, Dragon Dance, Intimidate, or Moxie. Dragonite without Stealth Rocks can do all those things too.
Also worth noting is that Aerodactyl can do everything on that list that didn't involve a water-type. Look where Aerodactyl is listed.

Yes but can Gyarados come in on a Tornadus-T spamming Hurricane? No not at all. Gyarados is not a very good check to Tornadus-T unlike Rotom-W, because with no SpD investment and no resistance, Tornadus can easily 2HKO Gyarados. He is an okay CHECK, but he definitely can't be compared to Rotom-W or even lol Aerodactyl in the tanking/roles department. Rotom-W is meant as a offensive/defensive pivot while the latter are used more offensively or in Aerodactyl's case, to get up hazards and do as much damage as possible.

Also I second PDC on Rotom-W's A rank. Specially Defensive Rotom-W is the greatest viable (no, do not say Lanturn is better, he sucks) counter against Tornadus-T. His HP isn't the greatest, but he has access to moves such as Pain Split or a Chesto Resto set in order to combat this. His supporting move pool is also stellar, and he is a staple on my own team for completely halting scarfers with T-Wave, and burning offensive threats with Will-o-Wisp. Did I mention that he's also extremely anti weather? Tanking both Rain and Sun boosted attacks no problem? Great Pokemon, extremely versatile, great synergy with almost anything, walls special attacks like their's no tomorrow, functions offensively and defensively, and has one weakness. Perfect for A rank.

[EtherDrive]

Originally Posted by Fat ScraftyIsTheBest

Where should we put Mienshao on this list? I'd say probably C-Rank at the very least.

Mienshao is quite good, tbh. It has a ridiculously strong Hi Jump Kick coming off of 125 Attack, which by default makes it pretty powerful. It's got Stone Edge for coverage like any Fighting-type.

To top it all off, Mienshao's got U-Turn as well as Regenerator. This makes it a great scout, not to mention it's got some high speed to boot. This means it can ward off damage from hazards, LO, Sand, and Hail, while also keeping up the pressure. Even better, it sports a nice 95 SpA, which means it can effectively run HP Ice to maim Gliscor and Dragon-types. That's pretty good.

Of course, I've got to list some cons as well to support this. It has a Flying weakness, which means "Tornadus-T can OHKO!". Also, it's speed isn't exactly the best, although good. There are faster things. And it has no way to deal with Ghosts not named Gengar/Chandelure. Lack of way to hit Jelli hard is pretty bad.

Overall, I'd say Mienshao has a nice place in C-Rank.

Don't forget he also has knock off which can punish switches.

[Neliel]

I think that Feraligatr should be at least mentioned in C-rank
With the rain support it can setup easily a sword dance with its bulky and then proceed to clean with aqua jet. Waterfall is a powerfull stab that can put a dent on any wall, bar the one with water absorb, not to mention if you get the torrent boost. Superpower and crunch both can help against some of his checks, and even ice punch can be used to troll Dragon types. Obviously it need some support to work, but its really underrated and i think that it fit c-rank well.

[Wizarus]

I also think Rotom-H should get a mention somewhere. It's the best Genesect counter in the game that dodges GeneTrio, and it's a great Tornadus-T check.

[Frog]

Wow I have to say this has become very accurate, congrats to everyone posting here.

My main problem is that reuniclus is in the B rank. It simply has too many good switch ins in the metagame and with the offensive pace of the metagame it will almost always fail. It still maintains its role as a good stallbreaker- unless the opponent does not have quagsire, jirachi, perish song, choice band tyranitar (the schwein uses this very effectively), sableye, stallbreaker mew, or anything else to deal with it. Putting it equal to big threats like mamoswine is simply inappropriate. Calm mind will never work against stall for reasons listed above and will not work against offense purely because of genesect. Trick room was never very good but cant't sweep much of anything nowadays. I would move it to the D rank, because while being bulky, fighting resistant, and having calm mind and recover is unique it isn't enough. Plus it could laugh at breloom in BW, but now breloom can KO with LO or CB bullet seed provided it gets a lot of hits. And it is simply outclassed offensively because the lati twins resist grass and water, alakazam is hella fast, and jirachi has a steel typing.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat Frog

Wow I have to say this has become very accurate, congrats to everyone posting here.

My main problem is that reuniclus is in the B rank. It simply has too many good switch ins in the metagame and with the offensive pace of the metagame it will almost always fail. It still maintains its role as a good stallbreaker- unless the opponent does not have quagsire, jirachi, perish song, choice band tyranitar (the schwein uses this very effectively), sableye, stallbreaker mew, or anything else to deal with it. Putting it equal to big threats like mamoswine is simply inappropriate. Calm mind will never work against stall for reasons listed above and will not work against offense purely because of genesect. Trick room was never very good but cant't sweep much of anything nowadays. I would move it to the D rank, because while being bulky, fighting resistant, and having calm mind and recover is unique it isn't enough. Plus it could laugh at breloom in BW, but now breloom can KO with LO or CB bullet seed provided it gets a lot of hits. And it is simply outclassed offensively because the lati twins resist grass and water, alakazam is hella fast, and jirachi has a steel typing.

Reuniclus is still meritable in OU. Yeah, Scizor and Gene have hurt his viability quite a bit, but he's still strong. I've used OTR Reun and it can still wreck shit like there's no tomorrow in the right conditions. Unlike Zam, Reun has actual bulk, while Zam is liable to die in one hit. And CM is okay...Not that good though. Still, as a constant user of Reun, he's not bad, and he still stands strong. Despite Genesect running all over the tier, Reuniclus can still stand to some of the other threats; like the Fighting-types and even Torn-T and Jolteon. I'd still say B-Tier at best because while he was nerfed hard, I'd say he's still meritable.