The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Rhys DeAnno]

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Also about Tornadus-T. At some point you're going to have to look at rain. You can't just keep on banning pokes and combinations that abuse rain, and completely ignore the fact that rain is dominant and these pokes would not be broken without rain.

It's a similar situation that Manaphy was in when he was OU. In this meta, Tornadus-T is S-Tier because generating rain is a trivial enough support condition that it doesn't detract enough from his brokenness. When I see Tornadus-T played well on an opposing team, my entire game becomes all about mitigating or eliminating the Tornadus-T, even to more of an extent than it was about mitigating or eliminating Salamence when he ruled in DPP. "I know it when I see it." is indeed the valid phrase here.

[Gary2346]

I'd like to nominate a Pokemon for the C tier that I'm surprised isn't even on this list, Mienshao. Now before you tell me Mienshao is just a slightly slower, slightly weaker non dual STAB version of Terrakion, let me assure you that Mienshao has a few tricks up his sleeves that can make him just as dangerous as Terrakion. First off, he has access to switch advantage U-Turn which Terrakion does not have, and can really help in situations to deal that final blow without having to stay in, or just to build momentum especially combined with a Scizor or a Rotom-Wash. Next off, he has a very usable special attack stat which allows him to use a Hidden Power of his choice if need be. Most, if not all the time however, Mienshao would be best off using HP Ice in order to due massive damage to Max defensive Gliscor, and Landorus. It's also a more reliable move to take down Dragons if you don't want to risk Stone Edge missing. Mienshao's speed tier is very decent too. Although it's not Terrakion's 108, 105 is almost just as good, and is a great candidate for a Choice Scarf, Choice Band, or a Life Orb. I've found most success with the Choice Scarf however, as it allows Mienshao to come in on DD Salamence and Volcarona after a boost. The most important thing that really helps support my claim for putting Mienshao in the C or B tier, is it's amazing ability Regenerator. With this ability, entry hazards don't really bother him too much, and if it's effected by Toxic or any other residual damage, Mienshao can just switch on out and and get most of it's health back. Combined with U-Turn, Mienshao can be quite difficult to take down even with it's low defenses. Also, did I mention how powerful Hi Jump Kick is?

So all in all, I think Mienshao deserves at least a C-Tier in OU, because of it's advantages it has the gives it more of an edge in certain situations that even Terrakion can't handle, and that even in OU it can be a very dangerous offensive threat that shouldn't be taken lightly.

[Temperantia]

I am actually quite surprised Cincinno isn't considered for this list, I haven't read through the entire thread, but it seems to be at least somewhat effective in OU. About to the extent of the C-listers.

[DarkBlazeR]

Originally Posted by Fat Temperantia

I am actually quite surprised Cincinno isn't considered for this list, I haven't read through the entire thread, but it seems to be at least somewhat effective in OU. About to the extent of the C-listers.

Cinccino isn't viable in OU because it's very easily walled by all of the common Steel types and other such bulky Pokémon. It also doesn't have the stats or the movepool to be threatening - even with Skill Link, base 95 Attack isn't anything too worrying. It does have a good Speed stat, but that doesn't matter when all forms of priority and Choice Scarf users will easily murder Cinccino due to its pathetic defenses.

The biggest issue though is that it simply doesn't occupy any useful niches in OU. Every role it has to offer is completely outclassed by something else. Why bother with Cinccino as physical sweeper when you can use something far more dangerous like Salamence or Terrakion? Sure, Cinccino may actually be quite effective given the right situation, but then again you could say that about virtually any Pokémon in the game.

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Temperantia

I am actually quite surprised Cincinno isn't considered for this list, I haven't read through the entire thread, but it seems to be at least somewhat effective in OU. About to the extent of the C-listers.

In addition to what DarkBlazer said, it's hilarious to switch in the ubiquitous Ferrothorn (and to a lesser extent, chomp or rocky helmet users like Deo-D) and watch it deal 62% (85% with rocky helmet) to itself with tail slap, potentially OHKOing itself if running LO with SR on the field.

Then we look at other common multi-hit abusers like Cloyster and Technician Breloom and notice it being pretty much entirely outclassed by them (not to mention any of the other powerful physical attackers that give it competition even without the multihit goodness). With cloyster having shell smash, rapid spin, and better coverage (razor shell/hydro pump to actually do something to steels which cincinno cant touch) and Breloom having spore, priority, and again - being able to deal with steels.

[Scarfwynaut]

I can see why Slowbro is C rank, but honestly its a solid pokemon, I have played with it for months now, its an amazing physical tank in this metagame stopping everything not named Tyranitar and Scizor (and even then it can take a hit from both of them and because of regenerator, and live to fight another day). Clearly it has its flaws, like every pokemon, but honestly it can easily be tacked onto almost any team with very little support.

Any thoughts against it being moved up to B rank.

[Sacaen]

Originally Posted by Fat Scarfwynaut

I can see why Slowbro is C rank, but honestly its a solid pokemon, I have played with it for months now, its an amazing physical tank in this metagame stopping everything not named Tyranitar and Scizor (and even then it can take a hit from both of them and because of regenerator, and live to fight another day). Clearly it has its flaws, like every pokemon, but honestly it can easily be tacked onto almost any team with very little support.

Any thoughts against it being moved up to B rank.

I used Slowbro extensively on my stall team and it was easily one of the best on my team. Breloom is another physical attacker that it can't take on btw as well as Kyurem-B's Fusion bolt. Having it not be able to take on such prominent threats leaves some big holes for your team mates to fill. More than anything though it hates taking hazard damage which limits how effective his regenerator is. It also really appreciates heal bell support as it can't stand toxic.

On the other hand is has a great movepool that keeps it relatively unpredictable. Scald, psyshock/psychic, fire blast/flamethrower, ice beam, and grass knot give it enough options to score a number of SE hits. Slowbro is also one of the few non-steel pokes that can take a +1 outrage and either status or ice beam it back. It can also spread status with Toxic or Thunderwave, and with it's incredible ability to take hits again and again it can come in throughout the match to cripple the majority of your foe's team relatively easily. Slowbro can also make a semi-decent sleep absorber, because it can hard counter so many physical attackers that it can still perform its job often even asleep and keep its health up via regenerator.

I wouldn't have suggested Slowbro for B-Rank before the blobs made it there, but now that they are there I think it's a perfect time for him to take a shot at B rank. Genesect being gone helps as well.

[LucaroarkZ]

Okay, I'm just going to set aside my differences from Scarfwynaut for a bit and agree with him about Slowbro. It's just an absolutely amazing physical tank thanks to Regenerator and its amazing defensive stats (except for Special Defense). Its typing is nothing to write home about (being weak to both halves of VoltTurn isn't the best thing in the world), but it grants it a resistance to many common types such as Fighting, letting it switch in on Pokemon such as Terrakion and Lucario (Terrakion not as much thanks to Stone Edge, though Regenerator helps there). Another thing I like about Slowbro is that it's not complete shit offensively like some walls are (*cough*Skarmory*cough*); It can pack Flamethrower to stop Ferrothorn from switching in for free, or Ice Beam to act as a check to Dragonite with Multiscale broken. You could even pack Psyshock to take a shit on a weakened Keldeo, though considering Slowbro's mediocre Special Defense, that's a little questionable. To add on to the fact that Slowbro actually has a usable Special Attack, Slowbro can even run a Choice Specs set to dish out some serious damage, while still retaining most of that good physical bulk.

[Tabuu]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

It seems like I need to use rainbow font and pretty pictures to explain once again why Tornadus-T is not S-rank material.
Such methods seem to be the easiest way to win arguments around here.

Hahaha, pictures are worth a thousand words
But honestly, if you want the big-bird gone from S-Rank tell us:
a.) What flaw/Pokemon does Tornadus-T have to deal with, that prevents him from doin' his job consistently, as a scout, Revenge Killer, Hole Opener, Late Game Cleaner?

b.) How does Torn-T struggle to create free turns? How does this thing end up becoming fodder for the opponent?

c.) Does Torn-T not have multiple functions resulting in versatility? Does he struggle to sweep the majority of the metagame? Does he need tremendous or quite a bit of support?

If these questions can be answered by you, then I will support you in considering the drop of Torn-T. Legit. Otherwise, I don't see a huge problem with the big guy up in S-Rank

Oh yea one more thing about something Gary2346 said. I feel Mienshao can make it to C-Tier. It's not a huge threat, gonna be honest. It has never proved itself ,to me at least, as a huge threat that'll make me wanna pee my pants everytime I see it in the preview. But, it can be a nuisance and a problem if not dealt with. So at least making a Rank shouldn't be a problem...although B? :/ uhuh

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Hahaha, pictures are worth a thousand words
But honestly, if you want the big-bird gone from S-Rank tell us:
a.) What flaw/Pokemon does Tornadus-T have to deal with, that prevents him from doin' his job consistently, as a scout, Revenge Killer, Hole Opener, Late Game Cleaner?

b.) How does Torn-T struggle to create free turns? How does this thing end up becoming fodder for the opponent?

c.) Does Torn-T not have multiple functions resulting in versatility? Does he struggle to sweep the majority of the metagame? Does he need tremendous or quite a bit of support?

If these questions can be answered by you, then I will support you in considering the drop of Torn-T. Legit. Otherwise, I don't see a huge problem with the big guy up in S-Rank

Oh yea one more thing about something Gary2346 said. I feel Mienshao can make it to C-Tier. It's not a huge threat, gonna be honest. It has never proved itself ,to me at least, as a huge threat that'll make me wanna pee my pants everytime I see it in the preview. But, it can be a nuisance and a problem if not dealt with. So at least making a Rank shouldn't be a problem...although B? :/ uhuh

Nah not B, I honestly don't know why I even said that.

[Tabuu]

@Gary2346
Haha its cool. Although it has gotten me quite interested in the little weasel. I think I'll make an OU SD Mienshao Team :D

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

@Gary2346
Haha its cool. Although it has gotten me quite interested in the little weasel. I think I'll make an OU SD Mienshao Team :D

At this very moment I'm making a team centered around Scarf Mienshao with U-Turn to abuse Regenerator. The reason I even posted about Mienshao on this thread is because of how much success I've had using it these last few days. Being able to lead and U-Turn out is amazing, and entry hazards have pretty much no effect on him. HP Ice is also pretty sweet to hit Gliscor, which Terrakion could never dream taking on. It may not be a Terrakion, but it's definitely not a gimmick Pokemon at that.

[Tabuu]

So ummmm...this place has gotten awful quiet .__.
Well, time to stir up some controversy haha.
Today I'd like to nominate Lucario for A-Rank


This is my tech banner. Give credit to me and pkmnfn.

So why A-Rank? Well Lucario has a great above average base 110 Attacking Stat. Coupled with Life Orb he can choose two Paths to Destruction. First is his Swords Dance set, that has arguably tremendous power and thanks to his Extreme Speed, he can KO Pokemon such as Tornadus-Therian,Scizor and Techniloom, some things SD Terrakion, his biggest competition, could never dream of beating. Now, Lucario at +2 hits a powerful 700 Attack Stat boosted by an Adamant Nature. With Life Orb, he can effectively crush walls such as Skarmory, Jellicent, Ferrothrorn, and Gliscor. With ES and Bullet Punch, Terrakion, Therians, Techniloom, Gengar, and a bunch of other threats all get KO'd with some support (Entry Hazards, teammates wearing them down). Lucario can sweep the majority of the Metagame. However his low speed and extreme frailness, can lead to his demise. This causes him from doing his job consistently. However once the opportunity is taken late-game, Lucario will 95% of the time , sweep with impunity.

Lucario can also take the route of becoming an Agility Sweeper. After an Agility, he pretty much outspeeds everything from Ferrothorn to Choice Scarf Latios.With the help of Stealth Rocks and sometimes some prior damage, many Pokemon will fall to Lucario. Calcs? Here they are:

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Latios: 268-317 (88.74 - 104.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-T: 250-296 (83.61 - 98.99%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 458-541 (143.57 - 169.59%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 546-642 (168.51 - 198.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Infernape: 331-390 (112.96 - 133.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (82.29 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (98.13 - 115.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 316-372 (110.1 - 129.61%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 316-372 (90.28 - 106.28%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 250-294 (61.88 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 270-322 (76.27 - 90.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 234-277 (81.53 - 96.51%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 218-257 (67.49 - 79.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 333-395 (100.6 - 119.33%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 335-395 (127.86 - 150.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 283-335 (70.04 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 260-307 (63.56 - 75.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 595-704 (164.81 - 195.01%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 302-359 (94.67 - 112.53%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

These are a hell of a lot of Calculations.
TL;DR: Lucario with Agility can sweep causing OHKOs and 2HKOs quite easily. He needs more support in breaking down and wearing down certain Pokemon but Agility Lucario is VERY viable this Generation.

Now let's just add some more goodies:
*Lucario is immune to Toxic and Toxic Spikes.
*Lucario has a very rare 1/4 resistance to Stealth Rocks.
*In essence, Entry Hazards aren't a problem.
*Steel typing=SO MANY RESISTANCES
*Fighting STAB
*Diverse Movepool
*NP, SD, or Agility to go with. Although NP is kinda stinky this generation...
*Immunity to Sand.
*Lucario looks sick.

DISCUSS :)
[My 100th post was on my favority Pokemon...haha]

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[Shurtugal]

I've never tried Agility Luke, but I would add Deo-D as a great partner so you can wear down your opponent with entry hazards, which weak Agi Luke would probably appreciate.

Also (one of your calcs):

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 302-359 (94.67 - 112.53%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO

two rounds of SR should put it into OHKO range easily, even at min damage.

however, don't most lando-t run defense evs? i dont use it much but players I know run defensive evs :x


252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 218-257 (67.49 - 79.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

ohko after rocks please. reflect that in op.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 316-372 (82.29 - 96.87%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

redundant calc. most common sets are scarfed (which outspeed at +0) or max DEF. Calc with max def pls.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 270-322 (76.27 - 90.96%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

i hate this calc. you need max damage + rocks for that possible chance, anything below max won't KO.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 250-294 (61.88 - 72.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

calc sucks: jirachi outspeeds adamant Luke at 290 and possess Fire Punch, so unless you're already at +2 speed, AND HIT IT ON THE SWITCH, Fire Punch wins.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Close Combat vs. 184 HP / 4 Def Rotom-W: 234-277 (81.53 - 96.51%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

248 hp is standard. calc again.

252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Crunch vs. 252 HP / 36 Def Jellicent: 283-335 (70.04 - 82.92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

sucks. unless you hit on switch its gonna WoW you. calc makes it seem like you would advise staying in '-'

[Lord of Bays]

Shurtugal is right. Based on SDS' spread, 200/244, -1 Close Combat followed by -1 Ice Punch won't KO without Rocks and at least decent damage rolls. If you predict the switch and use either Crunch or Ice Punch, it's obviously not an issue, but watch out.

Of course, if they don't run considerable bulk (Nyandorus needs to get under 87%, which requires investment in both HP and Defense), they still risk the OHKO with Rocks on a -1 Ice Punch.

[Tabuu]

Wow. I was totally not thinking when I was calc-ing. Just throwing together some stuff haha, I'm sorry. However, I'd like to get some resistance/support on my claim. :)

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[Scarfwynaut]

Here is my basic problem with Lucario, it provides little to no team support outside of sweeping. Take Salamence for example, Salamence can be a solid check to fighting types, it can take on Venusaur and other sun sweepers, and break walls with a mixed moveset, and check things with a scarf. A tier pokemon are rarely one dimensional and can be used in many different ways.

Lucario on the other hand is to frail to stop anything even with resists, the only thing it can do outside of sweep is be a psudocheck with extremespeed. You can't give Lucario a choice scarf or band without it being pretty much outclassed by other pokemon either.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat Gary2346

I'd like to nominate a Pokemon for the C tier that I'm surprised isn't even on this list, Mienshao. Now before you tell me Mienshao is just a slightly slower, slightly weaker non dual STAB version of Terrakion, let me assure you that Mienshao has a few tricks up his sleeves that can make him just as dangerous as Terrakion. First off, he has access to switch advantage U-Turn which Terrakion does not have, and can really help in situations to deal that final blow without having to stay in, or just to build momentum especially combined with a Scizor or a Rotom-Wash. Next off, he has a very usable special attack stat which allows him to use a Hidden Power of his choice if need be. Most, if not all the time however, Mienshao would be best off using HP Ice in order to due massive damage to Max defensive Gliscor, and Landorus. It's also a more reliable move to take down Dragons if you don't want to risk Stone Edge missing. Mienshao's speed tier is very decent too. Although it's not Terrakion's 108, 105 is almost just as good, and is a great candidate for a Choice Scarf, Choice Band, or a Life Orb. I've found most success with the Choice Scarf however, as it allows Mienshao to come in on DD Salamence and Volcarona after a boost. The most important thing that really helps support my claim for putting Mienshao in the C or B tier, is it's amazing ability Regenerator. With this ability, entry hazards don't really bother him too much, and if it's effected by Toxic or any other residual damage, Mienshao can just switch on out and and get most of it's health back. Combined with U-Turn, Mienshao can be quite difficult to take down even with it's low defenses.

So all in all, I think Mienshao deserves at least a C-Tier in OU, because of it's advantages it has the gives it more of an edge in certain situations that even Terrakion can't handle, and that even in OU it can be a very dangerous offensive threat that shouldn't be taken lightly.

Originally Posted by Fat Tabuu

Oh yea one more thing about something Gary2346 said. I feel Mienshao can make it to C-Tier. It's not a huge threat, gonna be honest. It has never proved itself ,to me at least, as a huge threat that'll make me wanna pee my pants everytime I see it in the preview. But, it can be a nuisance and a problem if not dealt with. So at least making a Rank shouldn't be a problem...although B? :/

Yes! Finally, one of my nominations doesn't go ignored!

Yeah, C-Rank seems fitting for Mienshao. Mienshao isn't the most threatening thing ever, but it can be very effective in the right conditions. Although it gets competition as a Fighting-type, it has awesome qualities such as 125 Attack and 130 BP STAB Hi Jump Kick, which allows it to hit anything that isn't immune to it for serious damage. Stone Edge provides decent coverage as well, so it can do. U-Turn and Regenerator are where it get its main points, scouting the team while healing off LO Damage. It's fantastic when played right. Though it's flaws are: It's frail as hell, it has no way to hurt Jelli outside of Stone Miss, and it's speed, while good, isn't the best. Well, anyways, Mienshao does serve as a strong and speedy scout, and its traits are fitting for a C-Rank.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Yeah Lucario provides very little defensive synergy and functions solely as an offensive physical attacker (it is otherwise outclassed) It really has nothing to do outside of Swords Dance (and I guess Agility but not really).

Its Steel-typing resistances do not do very much to help it since it is so frail. Is there a Dragon-type using Outrage? You're probably getting 2HKOed by it anyway. Maybe you can Ice Punch it, but then you're Lucario just happens to be extremely crippled by the move. If it happens to be at +2, you're probably going to get OHKOed by Outrage. For example, here is what happens against powerful Adamant Dragons.

252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 93.95% - 111.03% (62.5% chance to OHKO)
252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 84.34% - 99.29%

It doesn't resist Hurricane since it is a Fighting-type either, so Tornadus-T can trash it in one hit. A lot of the resistances are mitigated by coverage moves (Do you resist Ice? Not Mamoswine's Earthquake. Do you resist Grass? You get OHKOed by Breloom's Mach Punch). Heck, having a Fire-, Ground-, and Fighting- weakness is freaking bad, because that means that an unSTABbed Earthquake or something will defeat it without hardly a doubt. Finally, Lucario is (almost) always a physical attacker, and Extreemespeed makes them pretty similar. Luacrio's predicatability and fraility are why it should stay in B-tier.

[Takion]

Tabuu, as nice as Life Orb Lucario is, I do believe Air Balloon is the best Item for it in the current Meta.

My reasoning is this, If used on a rain team, fire moves are weakened allowing him to get a swords dance off. The balloon also lets you get a swords dance of against Earthquake abusers. Now I understand the power life orb provides but honestly a STAB CC without life orb will kill most the Meta.

Now with him being in A rank, (He's MY Fav pokemon too!) As I am new to the game Ill work my way in slowly, but speed is a huge issue for our Jackal friend. I personally prefer using Crunch over Ice Punch as it allows Lucario to check Jellicents, Reuniculus, and other pesky psychic/ghost types. However, speed is an issue.

The speed issue: Perhaps a Double Boost Lucario can be made viable...

Agility
Swords Dance
CC
ES

It being A rank at the moment doesnt seem likely...but thats because Im comparing it to the sweepers on there already...Dragonite, Salamence, Latios, Keldeo, and Scizor all provide something a little extra to the team that I feel Lucario lacks.

[nygerman]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Please do not deliberately ignore obvious facts and expect everyone not to notice it: Keldeo has a powerful, reliable second STAB move to use in Secret Sword, as well as Surf as primary STAB if you don't feel like gambling with accuracy, which is much better than Air Slash.
Tornadus-T has absolutely no good STAB other than Hurricane in the rain.

Your comparison doesn't quite cut it.

The thing is keldeo is easily countered by anything with water absorb.(Jellicent, Vapereon). It also lacks speed and neautral power. Keldeo is easily revenge killed while Tornadus has regenerate health through switching.

Torrnadus-t has perfect stats and ability. All it needs is hurricane in the rain to wreck 90% of Ou. Torrnadus is very easily to run a team around and it's counters pretty much have to be steel or pink blob.

[Takion]

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

Yeah Lucario provides very little defensive synergy and functions solely as an offensive physical attacker (it is otherwise outclassed) It really has nothing to do outside of Swords Dance (and I guess Agility but not really).

Its Steel-typing resistances do not do very much to help it since it is so frail. Is there a Dragon-type using Outrage? You're probably getting 2HKOed by it anyway. Maybe you can Ice Punch it, but then you're Lucario just happens to be extremely crippled by the move. If it happens to be at +2, you're probably going to get OHKOed by Outrage. For example, here is what happens against powerful Adamant Dragons.

252 Atk Choice Band Kyurem-B (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 93.95% - 111.03% (62.5% chance to OHKO)
252 Atk Choice Band Haxorus (+Atk) Outrage vs 4 HP/0 Def Lucario: 84.34% - 99.29%

It doesn't resist Hurricane since it is a Fighting-type either, so Tornadus-T can trash it in one hit. A lot of the resistances are mitigated by coverage moves (Do you resist Ice? Not Mamoswine's Earthquake. Do you resist Grass? You get OHKOed by Breloom's Mach Punch). Heck, having a Fire-, Ground-, and Fighting- weakness is freaking bad, because that means that an unSTABbed Earthquake or something will defeat it without hardly a doubt. Finally, Lucario is (almost) always a physical attacker, and Extreemespeed makes them pretty similar. Luacrio's predicatability and fraility are why it should stay in B-tier.

As much as I agree with your calcs I disagree with your final paragraph.

Mamoswine...usually will never go first againest a lucario...if a lucario has air balloon it can easily get a swords dance off...infact it doesnt need one againest Mamo

252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP/ 4 Def Mamoswine: 458-542 (126.86 - 150.13%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Especially if its holding Air Balloon unless if that Mamo is running a Choice scarf and fighting move it wont kill Luca

Breloom...Unless if Breloom got a boost a mach punch will not OHKO it...Im assuming your talking about a Sub Punch Breloom

244+ Atk Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 192-228 (68.08 - 80.85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While Lucario at swords dance

+2 252+ Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 460-543 (143.75 - 169.68%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tornadus-T...Usually you would not keep a fighting type pokemon in the game against a flying type. Not to mention he's been recently promoted to S-Tier! :)

The outrages...Usually you do not switch in sweepers on an outrage...Your tanks are made to handle this...e.g. Ferrothorn is an example.

These are my 2 cents but I do not disagree with you on Lucario being B rank, I just thought Id throw this out there.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Mamoswine...usually will never go first againest a lucario...if a lucario has air balloon it can easily get a swords dance off...infact it doesnt need one againest Mamo

Jolly Mamoswine does, in fact, outspeed Lucario and KO with Earthquake; and Jolly Mamoswine is not a bad idea this meta considering the amount of Jolly Low Sweep Breelom running around

Breloom...Unless if Breloom got a boost a mach punch will not OHKO it...Im assuming your talking about a Sub Punch Breloom

Sub Punch Breelom is almost nonexistent in this meta. Techniloom, its most used variant, can always KO Lucario
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 288-342 (102.12 - 121.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And that's without a Life Orb

[Takion]

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

Jolly Mamoswine does, in fact, outspeed Lucario and KO with Earthquake; and Jolly Mamoswine is not a bad idea this meta considering the amount of Jolly Low Sweep Breelom running around


Sub Punch Breelom is almost nonexistent in this meta. Techniloom, its most used variant, can always KO Lucario
252+ Atk Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Lucario: 288-342 (102.12 - 121.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And that's without a Life Orb

Thats Fair on the TechBreloom

The mamo argument can go either way as I said a Air Balloon can help lucario in the meta. There are Jollycarios as well:

252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mamoswine: 420-494 (116.34 - 136.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

[Tabuu]

"Luacrio's predicatability and fraility are why it should stay in B-tier." SwampRocket
Sigh...I guess you're right. Can't argue with that, although I still think he's a sick ass sweeper for this Generation :)
Guess you'll be taking a backseat tour this time around Lucario buddy

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