The OU Viability Ranking thread - Page 43

CTC · Dec 18th, 2012, 6:12:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

i actually want to say i <3 riolu, but i would never use it on a serious team. only if i was bored ;3

Tsk Tsk Tsk, so the truth comes out. After having seen me sweep countless teams with riolu, how can you say that Shurt? </3
Also Staraptor with scarf and final gambit is a great hole opener denting steels for a sweeper. Underused and underrated imo

Wizarus · Dec 18th, 2012, 10:58:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

choice band? i was referring to the scarf set since thats the only one I ever see used.

if you predict correctly I guess Raptor Band is about as menacing as Band Rakion but with lower speeds, huge recoil damage, and a weakness 4 rocks. Band Rak does most of the same things and threats more of the meta (seriously, if you predict X to come in you can SE half of them). The thing with that bird is that its sr weak and frail (and lets not forget the damned recoil damage = lolpriority) while Terrakion is neither of these things. (since terrak can switch from BP and not worry about SR damage....)

The only difference is that Star can spam a flying STAB. Wouldn't Specs Tornadus-T work just a bit better in this area? Sure its not hitting on the physical side but in all fairness if you predict things like Rotom-W to switch into Specs Nadus you can 2HKO with Focus Blast after Rocks; Just like Double Edge.

My beef with DE is that its recoil w/ reckless + SR + frailness = can't really switch in much. Not being able to switch into attacks sucks whereas Tornadus-T or Terrak retain bulk to do so and still have that power Raptor has.

Jirachi is also super common; not to mention speed tie with JOLLY band versions (which im unsure supports the band calcs you gave earlier, and it outspeeds adamant versions). Rachi also has a scarf set and can wreck band, it gets TWave, which screws you, and it gets a strong STAB.

Do I need any more reason to hate this bird?

It needs support(Rapid Spin). I don't hear people saying Band Dragonite and Scarf Salamence sucks because they have a SR weakness, no you use Rapid Spin with them.

There are key differences to Tornadus-T and Staraptor. Tornadus-T needs rain, doesn't have a secondary STAB, is specially based, and doesn't come close to 2HKOing Jirachi with Superpower. Band CC from Staraptor can 2HKO SPD Jirachi after rocks, so yes, it can 2HKO Jolly Jirachi on the switch if it wins the speed tie, and Jirachi doesn't have Choice Scarf. And I will say again, all of Rotom-Ws most common sets can't switch into Staraptor at all. SPD Rotom-W is 2HKO'd by CB Brave Bird.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

By definition, Staraptor belongs in B-Tier. D-Tier is far too low for Staraptor.

BlackLight · Dec 18th, 2012, 11:41:57 AM

My only problem with Staraptor is the massive problem of switching in. Its bulk is weak, and it doesn't have a large amount of weaknesses. Getting Staraptor into the fight is hell. I had to use Volt Switch + Rapid Spin Forretress to get it in, because if Staraptor takes a hit, it tends to die, very, very quickly. It's good, though, as those Brave Birds hurt like hell. I personally like BandRaptor with BB/CC/UTurn/Quick Attack, and Quick Attack was quite useful for nailing potential checks, such as weakened Latios. However, I do feel as though it wasn't worth it a lot of the time, and I would have rather gone with something a little scarier at times (BandMence XD)

Remedy · Dec 18th, 2012, 11:46:00 AM

Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited.
Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison.

The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing.
Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer.

I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche.

Wizarus · Dec 18th, 2012, 12:00:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited.
Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison.

The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing.
Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer.

I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche.

I could see if the pokemon outclassing Staraptor were coming from B-Tier, but all the pokemon mentioned that would outclass Staraptor are A and S ranked.

Locking yourself into Outrage is actually a thing, and the only other viable physical Dragon-Type move is Dragon Claw, which isn't exactly powerful. You're also Lowballing Starptor's coverage. Flying/Normal with CC gets insane coverage, to the point where only 4 pokemon viable in OU are switching into Band Staraptor without dying. 100 Speed isn't "really slow" at all. Of course scarfers are going to outspeed it, scarfers are meant to outspeed everything without a Choice Scarf or modifiers.

Edit: Just wanted to point out that Staraptor also gets Roost, for what it's worth. Although I really can't speak for 3 attacks + Roost set being viable, since I haven't used the set.

Siggu · Dec 18th, 2012, 12:28:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

You're also Lowballing Starptor's coverage. Flying/Normal with CC gets insane coverage, to the point where only 4 pokemon viable in OU are switching into Band Staraptor without dying.

And if we consider ALL the pokémon available in the games, the only one that resists Staraptor's Normal/Flying/Fighting coverage is... Rotom

Much like a previous post said, I think the only problems Staraptor has are its reliance on recoil moves and its frailness. If it manages to switch in... good luck

alexwolf · Dec 18th, 2012, 12:33:31 PM

Staraptor should be in D Rank imo. Yeah sure Reckless + BB + 125 Atk is nice and all but the bird has bad bulk, is SR weak, takes a ton of recoil to use its best move, and dies easily from priority. I have not seen any variant of Staraptor killing more than one Pokemon in the oppsing team before dying from a combination of SR + recoil + priority. I also agree that the prevelance of flying type resists due to the popularity of Torn-T makes Starpator quite useless right now.

And lol about Kingdra, just lol. You guys are underastimating the fuck out of it... Its only niche is an anti-rain measure? Then why RD Kingdra gives offensive teams one hell of a time, especially Sun teams (and Rain teams but everybody knows this). It is a solid B rank poke, and it really is a shame that not more people are using it, just because they are stuck in the ''anti-rain poke mentality'' and prefer other anti-rain measures.

Master of the Six Kings · Dec 18th, 2012, 1:00:12 PM

I can't imagine Starpator being anything but C rank. I agree that its reliance on recoil moves does kill its viability, but if you can get it in before rocks, or around rocks, it can do work. Having CC is such a godsend for the bird. C's clause of "crippling weakness" really seems like it describes Staraptor perfectly. It seems to fit in with the other C rank mons.

Although, i really don't see Virizion in C tier. It recieved the shallowest support moveset of any Grass Pokemon i've ever seen (no spores, powders, seeds, or anything) and its offensive stats force it to use set up moves to do anything. His set up moves also show how shallow its offensive movepool is, being Dual Stab and Stone Edge or Dual Stab Hidden power coverage, which can easily be sponged once its set is revealed. Its mixed set can be alright with Work up, but its inability to boost its speed really makes it a poor setup sweeper and it takes a turn or two to set up and be outsped by near any scarfer. It is D tier with the best of them imo.

Chou Toshio · Dec 18th, 2012, 1:08:41 PM

I think B-Rank is a perfect spot for Kingdra. It is a bit outclassed by Latios on the special side and Salamence/Haxorus on the physical, in that these Pokemon perform basically the same offensive job without being dependent on weather. Kingdra's all kinds of out-classed as a bulky water-type.

That said, out-classed or not, I think people forget that it's still very effective as an offensive Dragon even when its not raining. It's not as good as the others, but Kingdra's LO/Specs Draco Meteors still smash a lot of shit in sand/sun. It's STAB combo still puts people between a rock and a hard place in the right situation. I use max Speed Timid, and with its natural bulk, Kingdra's survivability actually lets it beats out quite a few offensive and defensive opponents one-on-one. Those 4x resistances to Water- and Fire-attacks come in handy more often than you realize as well. That Steel-Resistance is always so golden on any offensive poke. :D

So even at its least useful, Kingdra is still a nice blend of offensive Dragon and bulky water-type. It's survivability (mix of bulk/speed) and lack of weaknesses makes it a defensive asset, while its STAB Dragon/Water attacks make it a definite offensive one. It's far from the best bulky water-type, and not the most destructive offensive Dragon, but it can do a bit of each, and remains effective-- it's often "good enough", even outside rain, when it's least useful.

Then there's the opposite side, when Rain is up, Ferrothorn is gone, and you are packing one of the most destructive, broken Pokemon in the game. A Pokemon that would be feared even in Ubers, and far-outclassed Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc. in test round 1 of BW-- more broken, more destructive, more frustrating to deal with. Unstoppable. Traits that are even more invaluable when you're facing down Torn-T, Thund-T, and Keldeo. Don't play around them, don't take them on directly. Just blast them all the fuck away in an instant.

Considering Kingdra's overall usefulness, I'd say B-Rank is the best spot. Outside rain it's a bit outclassed, but it's good enough on its own merits; while when it gets the support it needs, you're dealing with S+++ BAN IT NOW level power. B seems like a good compromise.

Wizarus · Dec 18th, 2012, 1:16:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Staraptor should be in D Rank imo. Yeah sure Reckless + BB + 125 Atk is nice and all but the bird has bad bulk, is SR weak, takes a ton of recoil to use its best move, and dies easily from priority. I have not seen any variant of Staraptor killing more than one Pokemon in the oppsing team before dying from a combination of SR + recoil + priority. I also agree that the prevelance of flying type resists due to the popularity of Torn-T makes Starpator quite useless right now.

Why do people keep on mentioning these Flying-type resisters that counter Tornadus-T like they matter?

-Jolteon is lol always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
-Thundurus-T is almost always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
-Rotom-W(or all Rotoms for that matter)is always 2HKO'd by CB BB after rocks outside of Bold varients, which is not a Tornadus-T counter.
-Specially Defensive Zapdos is always 2HKO by CB BB after rocks.

That's Brave Bird killing them on the switch.

-Almost all forms of Jirachi risk being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
-The standard Sassy Bronzong risks being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
-Specially Defensive Skarmory even has a chance of being 2HKO'd by Band CC

Those are all the pokes designed to counter Tornadus-T losing to Staraptor outside of Metagross, which is about as non-existent as Staraptor. Staraptor needs support to work, I agree, but it does function well if it gets it.

Shurtugal · Dec 18th, 2012, 1:25:49 PM

Scarf Zappy (friend uses at 1700 on PO) lolfucks CB / CS Staraptor
Scarf Rotom-W fucks Raptor since -1 def after CC. Scarf doesn't 2HKO I believe bulky Rotom-W w/o DE, for the reckless does but you lose 47%
Zong walls you
Band is beaten by max speed Jirachi Thunder or Iron Head spam, and scarf also pwns (and you must run jolly to speed tie, which I think misses the 2HKO w/o rocks).

Oh and lets not forget that Torn-T guarantees everyone running SR more than ever (though it was used a lot b4 too).

With Rocks, every scarf should OHKO Staraptor. JS. Also can't switch in nearly at all to any offensive piviot after rocks thanks to shitty typing + bulk. Leave it in C Tier

Wizarus · Dec 18th, 2012, 2:10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Scarf Zappy (friend uses at 1700 on PO) lolfucks CB / CS Staraptor
Scarf Rotom-W fucks Raptor since -1 def after CC. Scarf doesn't 2HKO I believe bulky Rotom-W w/o DE, for the reckless does but you lose 47%
Zong walls you
Band is beaten by max speed Jirachi Thunder or Iron Head spam, and scarf also pwns (and you must run jolly to speed tie, which I think misses the 2HKO w/o rocks).

Oh and lets not forget that Torn-T guarantees everyone running SR more than ever (though it was used a lot b4 too).

With Rocks, every scarf should OHKO Staraptor. JS. Also can't switch in nearly at all to any offensive piviot after rocks thanks to shitty typing + bulk. Leave it in C Tier

Sorry, but I disagree.

Choice Scarf Staraptor will always OHKO 4/0 Scarf Zapdos with Double Edge after rocks, Band Staraptor doesn't even need SR, and BB will ensure that Zapdos cannot switch in again if SR are on the field.

Scarf Staraptor has a 93% chance to OHKO 4/0 Scarf Rotom-W with Double Edge after rocks, will always 2HKO with CC after rocks, and even has a 98% chance to 2HKO with Brave Bird after rocks. Choice Band doesn't need SR to achieve the OHKO with Double Edge, will ensure that Rotom-W can't switch in again after CC or BB, and U-Turn will always 2HKO after rocks.

Scarf Staraptor can't touch the standard Bronzong with anything but U-Turn, but Band Staraptor has a 33% chance of 2HKOing Sassy Bronzong with CC after rocks.

The standard 252HP/252Spe Timid Jirachi is 2HKO'd 53% of the time by Choice Band CC after rocks. The same goes for the standard 252/0 Specially Defensive Jirachi. Sub Paralysis Jirachi is always 2HKO'd by CC after rocks and has a 91% chance of doing so without them. Choice Scarf Jirachi can force CB Staraptor out. And this is coming from 252/252 Jolly Reckless Staraptor.

Every Scarfer OHKOing Staraptor doesn't matter, as those Scarfers can't switch in outside of Jirachi, which can once. And Staraptor can just switch out. It's too low in D-Tier, but people seem to want it in C-Tier, which is fine.

Lord of Bays · Dec 18th, 2012, 6:00:42 PM

Scarf Zapdos? Scarf Rotom-W? Do you realize that Staraptor carries Double-Edge and is also base 100 speed? And neither can switch in?

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Dec 18th, 2012, 6:17:49 PM

And herein lies the problem with Staraptor: its too damn powerful and suicidal for its own good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Every Scarfer OHKOing Staraptor doesn't matter, as those Scarfers can't switch in outside of Jirachi, which can once. And Staraptor can just switch out. It's too low for D-Tier, but people seem to want it in C-Tier, which is fine.

No. Staraptor can not "just switch out" precisely because of its Stealth Rock weakness (unlike Tornadus-T who takes no net damage from SR). The majority of the time, Stealth Rock will be down for a match (you got to try really hard to spin vs deo-d offense teams). Like Life Orb users, SR strongly compromises your ability to attack and it is even more so in the case of Staraptor because of Reckless recoil moves. Let's take the Zapdos example. If Zapdos is unexpectedly KO'ed by Staraptor during the match, with all of its HP taken by Staraptor, that means you should take 321/3 = 107 HP damage. At only one point in the entire match, Staraptor took SR damage, which I think is a reasonable benchmark. This makes it 107 HP+84HP=191 HP. Oh wow, I just took 191/339 = 56% of my health out through the match just by attacking. What this means is that your matinence and play with Staraptor must be incredibly high if you want it to do lasting damage throughout the match.

Now compare this to the equally high damage output of Choice Banders/Specs users such as Choice Band Terrakion, Rain Keldeo, CB Tyranitar, CB Garchomp, Latios (levitate) and Tornadus-T. Not only are these guys signifgantly easier to switch in due to their decent resists and defenses, they also can expend their power much more freely due to being resilient to SR (in the case of Band Tar he gets his switchin's from his monstrous special defense and the utility of sandstream is +1). Overall, the amount of effort to maintain Staraptor's life when you can have a Choiced user with a similar damage output is just not worth it, which directly falls under:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a small niche in the current OU metagame, but have very noticable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.

In the realm of Scarf he has to face off against Latios, Terrakion, Keldeo, and Lando-I, which can revenge a much larger variety of targets due to their speed tier and extra coverage. Resilience to hazards help too.

Wizarus · Dec 18th, 2012, 6:46:32 PM

All of which are A-S ranked pokemon. I'm not saying Staraptor isn't outclassed to a degree, I'm saying it's viable, and D-Tier is too low for it.

alexwolf · Dec 19th, 2012, 3:05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Wizarus

Why do people keep on mentioning these Flying-type resisters that counter Tornadus-T like they matter?

-Jolteon is lol always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
-Thundurus-T is almost always OHKO'd by CB BB after rocks.
-Rotom-W(or all Rotoms for that matter)is always 2HKO'd by CB BB after rocks outside of Bold varients, which is not a Tornadus-T counter.
-Specially Defensive Zapdos is always 2HKO by CB BB after rocks.

That's Brave Bird killing them on the switch.

-Almost all forms of Jirachi risk being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
-The standard Sassy Bronzong risks being 2HKO'd by Band CC after rocks
-Specially Defensive Skarmory even has a chance of being 2HKO'd by Band CC

Those are all the pokes designed to counter Tornadus-T losing to Staraptor outside of Metagross, which is about as non-existent as Staraptor. Staraptor needs support to work, I agree, but it does function well if it gets it.

They keep mentioning them because they do matter. Instead of taking frail offensive Pokemon that can't even switch into Torn-T, such as Jolteon and Thund-T, try to focus on more sturdier and bulkier Flying-type resists, namely Jirachi, Bronzong, and even Zapdos. All those Pokemon make Staraptor's job harder, as they can all hold back its best set, the Scarf variant. Yeah CB can get past them, but good job being almost useless against offensive teams, or at best getting one kill.

BurningMan · Dec 19th, 2012, 3:38:10 PM

I think D-Rank is fitting for Staraptor, the SR weakness lack of resistances and bulk as well as the omnipresence of Tornadus-Ts counters make Staraptor a liability most of the time.
Choice Band is too slow and outclassed by other choice banders who got better speed, bulk and typing that more than make up for the fact that they might not hit as hard. Sure Normal Fliying is a good dual Stab thanks to its high base power moves and the coverage granted by CC, but they are nothing simply not as spamable as Fighting Stone from Terrakion who boasts a better speed bulk and at least some resistances. Dragonite is also a better CBer because he combines good bulk with a useful typing he also got a strong priority move and Stab Outrages is simply destruction. There is also Kyu-B who is also SR and Priority weak but at least got the typing and bulk to switch into some defensive threats the same applies to CB Haxorus to a lesser extend since he isn't that bulky but at least go the Dragon typing to get some resistances.
CHoice Scarf is similar outclassed because there are alot faster mons who are more effective at revenge killing because their moves actually hit other pokemon for se damage and while Flying/Normal has good neutral coverage you actually hit nothing outside of Celebie,Breloom (mach Punch) and Volcarona (speed tie) for SE damage wich makes revenge killing without prior damage often difficult.

The only niche Staraptor got is maybe a LO set as a partner for Tornadus-T to weaken its checks and counters similar to Specs Moltres, but other than that i don't see much use for it. I don't think Staraptor is a bad pokemon per se, but he is outclasssed in most roles. He can work, however 90% of the time something else would have worked even better and the metagame isn't particulary nice to it either since all of its checks and counters are really common pokemon.

I would also like to support Azelf for C-Tier he is a really good lead for offensive Teams that want a fast and reliable SR setter who can act as a check for all fighting types. While he seems outclassed as a lead Hazardsetter by Deo-D who got better bulk and access to spikes, Azelfs sthrengths lie in its fantastic movepool and great offensive stats wich allow him to set-up SR early game and threaten again mid game thanks to 115 base Speed and 125 Atk/SpA. He also comes out on top against all spinners (bar Starmie because of speed ties and the fact that you will almost never run Thunder) and he can also pseudo spinblock with explosion. He can also 2HKO Espeon and Xatu on the switch in with Shadowball. While he got 2 hard counters in TTar and Heatran a move set with SR/Psychic/Fire Blast/Filler move actually has quite good coverage and threatens a lot of common pokemon and will often suprise opponents that don't know how to deal with it.
It obviously got weaknesses such as the pursuit weakness wich is espcially horrible when combined with the fact that it can't do shit against TTar (outside of HP Fighting wich still does lol damage) and that quite a few common pokemon wall it depending on its move set. However together with Deo-D and Aerodactyl he is one of the most reliable SR setters in the game and its sheer versatility thanks to its good mixed attacking stats and movepool make it real hard to switch into and by the time the opponent exactly knows Azelfs set he propably already has lost a pokemon.

**PK Gaming** · Dec 20th, 2012, 12:09:30 AM

=====
update
=====

Azelf added to C-tier
Wobbuffet added to C-tier
Staraptor added to C-tier
Mew up from C-tier ==> B-tier

I added a few lower tiered Pokemon to the list that frankly should have been added a while back. (Wobbuffet & Azelf especially ugh). I wasn't too sure about Staraptor, but I think sticking it in C-tier seems like a good idea from now, I know from first hand experience how strong Reckless Brave Bird / Double-Edge is.

Anyway I moved Mew up because its unquestionably a B-tier Pokemon without Genesect around (possibly even higher!) I'm kind of disappointed that I was the first to bring it up (unless I missed some earlier posts...)

Here's a little bit of Mew trivia for fun:
One of the top OU players (Windblue) claimed that Mew was a top 5 Pokemon in BW1, and possibly even the best. Things are different now, but I have a hunch that Mew will rise up if we square away a few threats.

BlankZero · Dec 20th, 2012, 1:25:18 AM

Azelf C-Tier?

T.T

No but really, the only thing that can really shut down Deo-D's not carrying Magic Coat/Mental Herb besides Weaville, but Weaville can't set up Rocks back.

Gary2346 · Dec 23rd, 2012, 1:44:26 AM

Ehhh I hate how no one replied to my last nomination.... anyways I'll try nominating it one last time to see if I can get a response from anyone. I would like to nominate Mienshao for C-Tier. If you'd like to hear my explanation as to way I think it deserves at least a C-Ranking, check out page 41 of this thread.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...473637&page=41

Takion · Dec 23rd, 2012, 3:57:52 AM

I'd like to Nominate Infernape for B-Rank

Its the fastest non-legendary fire pokemon that has quite a decent attack/s.attack. It gets a STAB Close Combat and Flare Blitz/Overheat that reck tanks. For Example,

4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 302-364 (85.79 - 103.4%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

With that being said it does have weaknesses, but so do all B rank characters. Discussion?

Also, What do people feel about Bisharp?

RabidChipmunk · Dec 23rd, 2012, 4:21:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

I'd like to Nominate Infernape for B-Rank

Its the fastest non-legendary fire pokemon that has quite a decent attack/s.attack. It gets a STAB Close Combat and Flare Blitz/Overheat that reck tanks. For Example,

4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 302-364 (85.79 - 103.4%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

With that being said it does have weaknesses, but so do all B rank characters. Discussion?

Also, What do people feel about Bisharp?

My biggest problem with Infernape is he absolutely needs sun support if he doesn't want to be neutered by rain. Rain absolutely dominates the metagame right now, however, and most sun teams simply can't find room for Infernape on them. That, and Infernape's biggest role in the past has been that of a mixed wall-breaker, but the OU metagame has become so offensive that there's not much demand for his particular niche right now (as I said earlier in regards to Hydreigon, it's hard to be a wallbreaker when there aren't any walls to break anymore).

And people don't feel about Bisharp. Bisharp sucks. In every tier.

Takion · Dec 23rd, 2012, 4:25:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

My biggest problem with Infernape is he absolutely needs sun support if he doesn't want to be neutered by rain. Rain absolutely dominates the metagame right now, however, and most sun teams simply can't find room for Infernape on them. That, and Infernape's biggest role in the past has been that of a mixed wall-breaker, but the OU metagame has become so offensive that there's not much demand for his particular niche right now (as I said earlier in regards to Hydreigon, it's hard to be a wallbreaker when there aren't any walls to break anymore).

And people don't feel about Bisharp. Bisharp sucks. In every tier.

Ive been testing infernape out and noticed his dependency of the sun may not be as badly as what it seems. You raise very valid points though.

ALSO Meloetta anyone? STAB Relic song

thesynchrohero · Dec 23rd, 2012, 4:45:38 AM

Yeah, I think C tier for the melody Pokémon, but only because of Relic Song seemingly having a 100% chance to sleep stuff, because changing forms mid-battle is to hard to work with.

thebrownie · Dec 23rd, 2012, 5:41:27 AM

If Infernape is B tier in this heavy rain meta, Kingdra should be A tier (Not saying it should). Running a rain dance life orb Kingdra completely crushes Rain teams and it 4x resists water, guaranteed to be faster than everything on rain teams.

I'm not saying Kingdra is great, but it's completely anti-metagame and since majority of teams run rain Kingdra can completely destroy teams whereas running sun because of infernape sets you at a disadvantage at the start. Not running sun is as dangerous if not more.

Dec 18th, 2012, 11:46:00 AM	#1054
Remedy Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 497 I tell you I'm a Tensai	Having 75% with Staraptor and 75 with Mence/Nite is clearly not the same. You can't compare it, moreover because their coverage is insane, Staraptor's one is not so great because the options he can run are really limited. Dragonite also got a way to recover, Mence too even if it's not so used. They also got a pretty usable SpA stat, I think Staraptor is pretty ridiculous in comparison. The typing also, excuse me, but Staraptor typing is just awful. You can't compare it to a Dragon Typing. Band Staraptor is slow, really slow thus gets killed by both priorities (it does resist 0 priorities) and other Scarfer. I only find the Final Gambit set filling a real niche. __________________ We must not let daylight in upon the magic. *VM me for a rate in BW2 OU, my advices are free for now* Check my last RMT -Friend's Prophecy- ! And give me your opinion ! http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482863*

Dec 18th, 2012, 12:33:31 PM	#1057
alexwolf King of Conquerors Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 3,761 Greece	Staraptor should be in D Rank imo. Yeah sure Reckless + BB + 125 Atk is nice and all but the bird has bad bulk, is SR weak, takes a ton of recoil to use its best move, and dies easily from priority. I have not seen any variant of Staraptor killing more than one Pokemon in the oppsing team before dying from a combination of SR + recoil + priority. I also agree that the prevelance of flying type resists due to the popularity of Torn-T makes Starpator quite useless right now. And lol about Kingdra, just lol. You guys are underastimating the fuck out of it... Its only niche is an anti-rain measure? Then why RD Kingdra gives offensive teams one hell of a time, especially Sun teams (and Rain teams but everybody knows this). It is a solid B rank poke, and it really is a shame that not more people are using it, just because they are stuck in the ''anti-rain poke mentality'' and prefer other anti-rain measures. __________________ Part of the OU QC team, message me for a check!

Dec 18th, 2012, 1:08:41 PM	#1059
Chou Toshio Hmmm... A name for the plan... Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,035 Sea Forest	I think B-Rank is a perfect spot for Kingdra. It is a bit outclassed by Latios on the special side and Salamence/Haxorus on the physical, in that these Pokemon perform basically the same offensive job without being dependent on weather. Kingdra's all kinds of out-classed as a bulky water-type. That said, out-classed or not, I think people forget that it's still very effective as an offensive Dragon even when its not raining. It's not as good as the others, but Kingdra's LO/Specs Draco Meteors still smash a lot of shit in sand/sun. It's STAB combo still puts people between a rock and a hard place in the right situation. I use max Speed Timid, and with its natural bulk, Kingdra's survivability actually lets it beats out quite a few offensive and defensive opponents one-on-one. Those 4x resistances to Water- and Fire-attacks come in handy more often than you realize as well. That Steel-Resistance is always so golden on any offensive poke. :D So even at its least useful, Kingdra is still a nice blend of offensive Dragon and bulky water-type. It's survivability (mix of bulk/speed) and lack of weaknesses makes it a defensive asset, while its STAB Dragon/Water attacks make it a definite offensive one. It's far from the best bulky water-type, and not the most destructive offensive Dragon, but it can do a bit of each, and remains effective-- it's often "good enough", even outside rain, when it's least useful. Then there's the opposite side, when Rain is up, Ferrothorn is gone, and you are packing one of the most destructive, broken Pokemon in the game. A Pokemon that would be feared even in Ubers, and far-outclassed Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Manaphy, etc. in test round 1 of BW-- more broken, more destructive, more frustrating to deal with. Unstoppable. Traits that are even more invaluable when you're facing down Torn-T, Thund-T, and Keldeo. Don't play around them, don't take them on directly. Just blast them all the fuck away in an instant. Considering Kingdra's overall usefulness, I'd say B-Rank is the best spot. Outside rain it's a bit outclassed, but it's good enough on its own merits; while when it gets the support it needs, you're dealing with S+++ BAN IT NOW level power. B seems like a good compromise. __________________ "Hmmm... a name for this plan..."

Dec 18th, 2012, 1:25:49 PM	#1061
Shurtugal Pro-OU! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 858 Florida	Scarf Zappy (friend uses at 1700 on PO) lolfucks CB / CS Staraptor Scarf Rotom-W fucks Raptor since -1 def after CC. Scarf doesn't 2HKO I believe bulky Rotom-W w/o DE, for the reckless does but you lose 47% Zong walls you Band is beaten by max speed Jirachi Thunder or Iron Head spam, and scarf also pwns (and you must run jolly to speed tie, which I think misses the 2HKO w/o rocks). Oh and lets not forget that Torn-T guarantees everyone running SR more than ever (though it was used a lot b4 too). With Rocks, every scarf should OHKO Staraptor. JS. Also can't switch in nearly at all to any offensive piviot after rocks thanks to shitty typing + bulk. Leave it in C Tier __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!

Dec 18th, 2012, 6:00:42 PM	#1063
Lord of Bays Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 493	Scarf Zapdos? Scarf Rotom-W? Do you realize that Staraptor carries Double-Edge and is also base 100 speed? And neither can switch in? __________________ FaceFaceFace: "Genesect is like the Terminator. Scary when he's coming after you, absolutely lovely with ridiculous punch-lines when he's on your side."

Dec 18th, 2012, 11:41:57 AM	#1053
BlackLight Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 300 >:D	My only problem with Staraptor is the massive problem of switching in. Its bulk is weak, and it doesn't have a large amount of weaknesses. Getting Staraptor into the fight is hell. I had to use Volt Switch + Rapid Spin Forretress to get it in, because if Staraptor takes a hit, it tends to die, very, very quickly. It's good, though, as those Brave Birds hurt like hell. I personally like BandRaptor with BB/CC/UTurn/Quick Attack, and Quick Attack was quite useful for nailing potential checks, such as weakened Latios. However, I do feel as though it wasn't worth it a lot of the time, and I would have rather gone with something a little scarier at times (BandMence XD)

Dec 18th, 2012, 1:00:12 PM	#1058
Master of the Six Kings Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 791 Where soccer is the correct terminology and bacon isn't dishonest	I can't imagine Starpator being anything but C rank. I agree that its reliance on recoil moves does kill its viability, but if you can get it in before rocks, or around rocks, it can do work. Having CC is such a godsend for the bird. C's clause of "crippling weakness" really seems like it describes Staraptor perfectly. It seems to fit in with the other C rank mons. Although, i really don't see Virizion in C tier. It recieved the shallowest support moveset of any Grass Pokemon i've ever seen (no spores, powders, seeds, or anything) and its offensive stats force it to use set up moves to do anything. His set up moves also show how shallow its offensive movepool is, being Dual Stab and Stone Edge or Dual Stab Hidden power coverage, which can easily be sponged once its set is revealed. Its mixed set can be alright with Work up, but its inability to boost its speed really makes it a poor setup sweeper and it takes a turn or two to set up and be outsped by near any scarfer. It is D tier with the best of them imo.

Dec 18th, 2012, 6:46:32 PM	#1065
Wizarus Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 162	All of which are A-S ranked pokemon. I'm not saying Staraptor isn't outclassed to a degree, I'm saying it's viable, and D-Tier is too low for it.

Dec 19th, 2012, 3:38:10 PM	#1067
BurningMan Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 1,041	I think D-Rank is fitting for Staraptor, the SR weakness lack of resistances and bulk as well as the omnipresence of Tornadus-Ts counters make Staraptor a liability most of the time. Choice Band is too slow and outclassed by other choice banders who got better speed, bulk and typing that more than make up for the fact that they might not hit as hard. Sure Normal Fliying is a good dual Stab thanks to its high base power moves and the coverage granted by CC, but they are nothing simply not as spamable as Fighting Stone from Terrakion who boasts a better speed bulk and at least some resistances. Dragonite is also a better CBer because he combines good bulk with a useful typing he also got a strong priority move and Stab Outrages is simply destruction. There is also Kyu-B who is also SR and Priority weak but at least got the typing and bulk to switch into some defensive threats the same applies to CB Haxorus to a lesser extend since he isn't that bulky but at least go the Dragon typing to get some resistances. CHoice Scarf is similar outclassed because there are alot faster mons who are more effective at revenge killing because their moves actually hit other pokemon for se damage and while Flying/Normal has good neutral coverage you actually hit nothing outside of Celebie,Breloom (mach Punch) and Volcarona (speed tie) for SE damage wich makes revenge killing without prior damage often difficult. The only niche Staraptor got is maybe a LO set as a partner for Tornadus-T to weaken its checks and counters similar to Specs Moltres, but other than that i don't see much use for it. I don't think Staraptor is a bad pokemon per se, but he is outclasssed in most roles. He can work, however 90% of the time something else would have worked even better and the metagame isn't particulary nice to it either since all of its checks and counters are really common pokemon. I would also like to support Azelf for C-Tier he is a really good lead for offensive Teams that want a fast and reliable SR setter who can act as a check for all fighting types. While he seems outclassed as a lead Hazardsetter by Deo-D who got better bulk and access to spikes, Azelfs sthrengths lie in its fantastic movepool and great offensive stats wich allow him to set-up SR early game and threaten again mid game thanks to 115 base Speed and 125 Atk/SpA. He also comes out on top against all spinners (bar Starmie because of speed ties and the fact that you will almost never run Thunder) and he can also pseudo spinblock with explosion. He can also 2HKO Espeon and Xatu on the switch in with Shadowball. While he got 2 hard counters in TTar and Heatran a move set with SR/Psychic/Fire Blast/Filler move actually has quite good coverage and threatens a lot of common pokemon and will often suprise opponents that don't know how to deal with it. It obviously got weaknesses such as the pursuit weakness wich is espcially horrible when combined with the fact that it can't do shit against TTar (outside of HP Fighting wich still does lol damage) and that quite a few common pokemon wall it depending on its move set. However together with Deo-D and Aerodactyl he is one of the most reliable SR setters in the game and its sheer versatility thanks to its good mixed attacking stats and movepool make it real hard to switch into and by the time the opponent exactly knows Azelfs set he propably already has lost a pokemon. Last edited by BurningMan; Dec 19th, 2012 at 4:09:08 PM.

Dec 20th, 2012, 12:09:30 AM	#1068
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564 Sumuru city	===== update ===== Azelf added to C-tier Wobbuffet added to C-tier Staraptor added to C-tier Mew up from C-tier ==> B-tier I added a few lower tiered Pokemon to the list that frankly should have been added a while back. (Wobbuffet & Azelf especially ugh). I wasn't too sure about Staraptor, but I think sticking it in C-tier seems like a good idea from now, I know from first hand experience how strong Reckless Brave Bird / Double-Edge is. Anyway I moved Mew up because its unquestionably a B-tier Pokemon without Genesect around (possibly even higher!) I'm kind of disappointed that I was the first to bring it up (unless I missed some earlier posts...) Here's a little bit of Mew trivia for fun: One of the top OU players (Windblue) claimed that Mew was a top 5 Pokemon in BW1, and possibly even the best. Things are different now, but I have a hunch that Mew will rise up if we square away a few threats. __________________

Dec 20th, 2012, 1:25:18 AM	#1069
BlankZero Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 656 East Coast, USA	Azelf C-Tier? T.T No but really, the only thing that can really shut down Deo-D's not carrying Magic Coat/Mental Herb besides Weaville, but Weaville can't set up Rocks back.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 1:44:26 AM	#1070
Gary2346 The one and only! Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 495 Hooters	Ehhh I hate how no one replied to my last nomination.... anyways I'll try nominating it one last time to see if I can get a response from anyone. I would like to nominate Mienshao for C-Tier. If you'd like to hear my explanation as to way I think it deserves at least a C-Ranking, check out page 41 of this thread. http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthr...473637&page=41 __________________ RMT #4: Biohazard Analysis' & Projects:

Dec 23rd, 2012, 3:57:52 AM	#1071
Takion Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 89	I'd like to Nominate Infernape for B-Rank Its the fastest non-legendary fire pokemon that has quite a decent attack/s.attack. It gets a STAB Close Combat and Flare Blitz/Overheat that reck tanks. For Example, 4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 302-364 (85.79 - 103.4%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO With that being said it does have weaknesses, but so do all B rank characters. Discussion? Also, What do people feel about Bisharp?

Dec 23rd, 2012, 4:45:38 AM	#1074
thesynchrohero Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 181	Yeah, I think C tier for the melody Pokémon, but only because of Relic Song seemingly having a 100% chance to sleep stuff, because changing forms mid-battle is to hard to work with.

Dec 23rd, 2012, 5:41:27 AM	#1075
thebrownie Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 83	If Infernape is B tier in this heavy rain meta, Kingdra should be A tier (Not saying it should). Running a rain dance life orb Kingdra completely crushes Rain teams and it 4x resists water, guaranteed to be faster than everything on rain teams. I'm not saying Kingdra is great, but it's completely anti-metagame and since majority of teams run rain Kingdra can completely destroy teams whereas running sun because of infernape sets you at a disadvantage at the start. Not running sun is as dangerous if not more.