The OU Viability Ranking thread - Page 46

Takion · Dec 29th, 2012, 2:47:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Anyone else think Volcarona should be A rank? I know it has a "crippling weakness" (namely SR), but it is just so ridiculously good when SR is not around that I reckon it should be better than B rank. If SR was NOT around, I'd seriously consider it being S rank. Anyway, even with Stealth Rock, Volcarona is still a huge threat, since a 50% Volc is usually still as likely to sweep a team as a 100% one. Stealth Rock, in most of the cases, is just an inconvenience that "prevents it doing its job consistently" (A tier description) rather than a huge crippling flaw that knocks it down two tiers. The fact that it has a number of sets that can let it be used in any form of weather, as well as bulky and offensive threats just speaks volumes of this thing's versatility, IMO.

Move Volcarona to A rank

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Technically speaking Volca does fall into all of those...

However, let me present points for both For and against it.

Against:

Rain Teams are just to good, and with Keldeo on the loose Volca will have a difficult time

Needs a Rapid Spinner desperately...other wise its weakness to not only stealth rock but spikes make it easy for a kill

Very weak to statuses e.g. thunder wave and poison

For:
1x Quiver Dance could potentially spell GG. Kills Psychics hard.

It actually can be utilised in the rain...with the use of hurricane.

It allows to be a great counter to sun teams.

DarkBlazeR · Dec 29th, 2012, 2:56:04 AM

Throwing out my support too. What's really interesting at the moment is how few players currently prepare to deal with Volcarona. With a significant decline in the number of Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Landorus, players often find themselves unable to make a revenge kill without having to sacrifice multiple team members. With the sun up and Giga Drain, Scarf Keldeo, the premier revenge killer in BW2, will find itself struggling to take out a healthy Volcarona after it has a Quiver Dance boost.

To be honest, I wouldn't say Volcarona even requires that much support. Sure, you ideally need Rapid Spin support, but that's not too much of an ask, considering how a Rapid Spin user is a great asset for all teams anyway. The support required extends little further than that - it's not fully dependent on sun, and after a Quiver Dance it can do serious damage to even some of its checks. If the sun is up, a +1 LO Fire Blast will OHKO 56/0 Gyarados, 0/4 Dragonite and 0/0 Salamence after they take Stealth Rock damage.

Super Mario Bro · Dec 29th, 2012, 3:03:28 AM

Yea, I completely agree with Volcarona to A rank. In fact, I'm surprised that it wasn't there before.

Also, I'd like to bring up a previous point that wasn't addressed about moving Espeon to B rank. It's not only the best Baton Pass receiver in the entire game (Full BP wouldn't exist without Espeon), but it's also has niche roles on offensive teams. It's able to pass CM or set up fast Dual Screens, all while blocking hazards. Xatu is better at switching into hazard setters and Breloom, but Espeon has an offensive presence and access to Baton Pass, which makes it unique and effective enough to be Rank B. It's not worse than Xatu; it's just different.

Scarfwynaut · Dec 29th, 2012, 3:17:27 AM

On Tornadus-N, its also a bit stronger than Tornadus-T. For example Tornadus-N has a pretty solid chance to 2HKO Chansey with superpower when Tornadus-T can't ever, even with rocks. Life orb is outclassed by Tornadus-T now but specs still has its merits. For example specs HP-ice garantees a 2HKO on spD Zapdos, a hurricane a 1HKO on Terrakion, it 1HKOs Gachomp 81% of the time (compared to 31% of the time for Tornadus-T), without rocks it 1HKOs Scizor 93% of the time as opposed to 43% for Tornadus-T. Overall there is about a 9% damage difference in power, so if you are running a quick hyper offensive rain team, it might be worth the toss up. You only lose out speeding Starmie, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and scarf-Tyranitar, so the speed loss isn't to much.

LilOuOn · Dec 29th, 2012, 10:44:09 AM

...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat LilOuOn

NOMINATING DRAGONITE TO S RANK

Dragonite has massive physical attack and once he get a dragon dance he can proceed to sweep with little help. He only need 1 or 2 turns to set up and hit very hard with Outrage or Fire Punch for steel types. Dnite doesnt need the help of weather to make his job. The access to extreme speed is really nice dealing huge damage to scarf pokes before you get the +2 speed. Talking about his counters: Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory can be took down with fire punch (Except Skarmory which is easily destroyed by teammates like magnezone or rotom w). Landorus-T and gliscor can be crippled by ice punch depending on your needs. The use of lum berry really helps him with the status and with the confusion once you finish using outrage. Moreover, he has access to multiscale, an awesome ability that grants that you have a free and safe dragon dance if your multiscale is not broken (thanks god Genesect is gone cause he didnt mind the multiscale).

Dragonite has A LOT of sets that can be performed ezly increasing his unpredictability.

-Dragon Dance and Choice Band. These are the common sets and no one doubts his power.

-Substitute + Dragon Dance. This set works really nice in stall teams and, if your opponent is not smart, he will have a bad time dealing with this. The main purpose of the set is to set a sub, roost of damage, set dragon dance and repeat the progress until you get sufficient boosts to sweep.

-Parashuffler. Similar to the one before. Take an attack that he will resist cause of his ability, then paralyze, then sub, wait for a "the pokemon is paralyzed, it cant move" and roost. Then time to dragon tail stuff and repeat the same progress. Again, thanks that genesect is gone he has another opportunity to work.

-Tank (Rain). "While many Dragonite sets aim to break holes, this set aims to deal with many common threats to rain teams thanks to its numerous resistances and the all-important Multiscale. Thanks to being made for rain, it has the ability to hit back hard as well, which is a key advantage over the Multiscale shuffler set. Out of every single set contained in this analysis, this set is the best abuser of Multiscale, taking advantage of Roost to stall out even super effective attacks from some of the most monstrous attackers in existence. Dragon Tail is able to be used at key times if Multiscale is intact, as well as STAB Hurricane and perfectly-accurate-in-rain Thunder to hit back hard." Took from Smogon.

What do you think about Dragonite in S Rank?

I suggested Dnite for S rank due to its capability to sweep significant portions of the metagame and its large possibilities to use different movesets with effectiveness.

Anyone agree? (Click the SHOW button to read my proposition)

**PK Gaming** · Dec 29th, 2012, 12:36:53 PM

=====
update
=====

added Mienshao to C-tier
added Tornadus-I to B-tier
moved Haxorus up from C-tier ==> B-tier

====

No objections with adding Mienshao to C-tier and Tornadus to B-tier. Even with the existence of Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I is still a powerful threat because of its fast Speed and Hurricane. I you're doubting its viability in OU I would give this team a look.

Haxorus was a bit tricky to place. Even Genesect banned, the metagame wasn't very kind to it since everything hits fast & hard. That said, I got some mileage out of the CB set (I honestly think its better than CB Kyurem, since Haxorus can actually kill steel-types ) and the Dragon Dance set, which is pretty decent with a yache equipped. It's viability on DragMag teams speak for itself.

@Volcorona: You're going to have to sell me on why its A-tier. I understand that Volcorona is difficult to deal with once it's set up, but setting up sweep in this metagame is legitimately difficult. Rain is everywhere, and while you may argue that it just lets Volcorona abuse Hurricane, it also gives water-types a STAB boost which makes it easier to kill/weakens its Fire-STAB. Scarf Keldeo is around every corner, and can always revenge kill +1 Volcorona. Even Tornadus-T (who is omnipresent) is a good check since it resists all of its moves in the rain and can maul it with Hurricane. Even if we discount those incredibly common checks, is it really on par with the likes of Keldeo, Landorus and the majority of the offensive threats in A-tier? These are risk free sweepers who don't need SR removed to do their job and can function in almost any weather. In BW1, I wouldn't have hesitated to place Volcorona in A-tier, but its really a shell of its former self in BW2, and it shows. Volcorona is non-existent on the PS ladder, and before you cry foul and say "lol PS ladder" it wasn't very common on the Suspect ladder either (#29).

@Espeon: Yeah I'd say you've made your point Super Mario Bros. Any objections? I'm just about ready to move this thing to B-tier.

Chou Toshio · Dec 29th, 2012, 3:56:58 PM

I also support Espeon for b-tier. Magic bounce is annoying enough by itself, but with so many teams relying on offensive Pokemon like keldeo, garchomp, terrak, lando, thund (poke that fall just short of espeon's 110 speed), it' surprising how many offensive teams have no practical way of dealing with it.

Shokwav · Dec 29th, 2012, 4:28:43 PM

Why is Landorus-T in B-tier? Terrakion is the top physical threat in OU, and Landorus is the only hard counter in the tier, not to mention other physical threats like Garchomp and Ttar. It also has access to Intimidate, SR, STAB EQ, Voltturn abilities, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Chou Toshio

I also support Espeon for b-tier. Magic bounce is annoying enough by itself, but with so many teams relying on offensive Pokemon like keldeo, garchomp, terrak, lando, thund (poke that fall just short of espeon's 110 speed), it' surprising how many offensive teams have no practical way of dealing with it.

Xatu really outclasses it.

Takion · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:09:48 PM

Ill be nominating Infernape for B-Tier.

I honestly believe this mon can be very viable even without a sun team. Its STAB Close Combat is nothing to joke about and makes it an effective sweeper. It also learns two priority moves, Fake Out and Mach Punch. I personally prefer Fake Out to break focus sashes, but both can be used well.

It's speed is where its strength is at. It matches Terrakion speed, and with the rarity of Jolly Terraks, Hasty Infernape can one shot it with a CC. It also is a beast under the sun, and a can be a great counter to Venusaur. One of its STAB moves, Over Heat, can completely fool an opponent. For example, after Over heating, the mon special attack drops...which could imply for the opponent to set up on a weaker Infernape. It OHKO Volcarona, Ninetales, Kyurem-B and Thundurus-T with Stone Edge, not to mention it out speeds the latter pokemon.

Other Versions can be used besides the mixed ape. It can be scarfed to beat other scarf user. Banded to increase the attack, or you can run a swords dance variant/special sweeper variant.

Heres a Quick Replay:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6651532

Here are Calcs to support my statements:

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 309-364 (88.28 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 801-951 (198.26 - 235.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 439-517 (112.27 - 132.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 478-564 (147.53 - 174.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 257-304 (72.59 - 85.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 255-302 (78.94 - 93.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 DefThundurus: 322-382 (107.69 - 127.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to mention after a fake out it can Close Combat a Politoed away.

RabidChipmunk · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:25:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

Ill be nominating Infernape for B-Tier.

I honestly believe this mon can be very viable even without a sun team. Its STAB Close Combat is nothing to joke about and makes it an effective sweeper. It also learns two priority moves, Fake Out and Mach Punch. I personally prefer Fake Out to break focus sashes, but both can be used well.

It's speed is where its strength is at. It matches Terrakion speed, and with the rarity of Jolly Terraks, Hasty Infernape can one shot it with a CC. It also is a beast under the sun, and a can be a great counter to Venusaur. One of its STAB moves, Over Heat, can completely fool an opponent. For example, after Over heating, the mon special attack drops...which could imply for the opponent to set up on a weaker Infernape. It OHKO Volcarona, Ninetales, Kyurem-B and Thundurus-T with Stone Edge, not to mention it out speeds the latter pokemon.

Other Versions can be used besides the mixed ape. It can be scarfed to beat other scarf user. Banded to increase the attack, or you can run a swords dance variant/special sweeper variant.

Heres a Quick Replay:
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6651532

Here are Calcs to support my statements:

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 309-364 (88.28 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 801-951 (198.26 - 235.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 439-517 (112.27 - 132.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 478-564 (147.53 - 174.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO

4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 257-304 (72.59 - 85.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 255-302 (78.94 - 93.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 DefThundurus: 322-382 (107.69 - 127.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not to mention after a fake out it can Close Combat a Politoed away.

Most of your calcs involved the moves Close Combat and Stone Edge, so I would I bother using Infernape when I can just use Terrakion, who gets STAB on both moves and has higher attack, as well as the same speed? Overheating Gliscor and access to Mach Punch is it's only advantage over Terrakion, but I say it's not enough, and just to add more salt to the wound, being a Fire-type not named Heatran sucks in this metagame, what with rain being just around every corner. Infernape is largely outclassed in just about every way; I'd say keep it C-rank at the most.

Also, don't use Fake Out on Infernape. Ever.

Takion · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:34:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Most of your calcs involved the moves Close Combat and Stone Edge, so I would I bother using Infernape when I can just use Terrakion, who gets STAB on both moves and has higher attack, as well as the same speed? Overheating Gliscor and access to Mach Punch is it's only advantage over Terrakion, but I say it's not enough, and just to add more salt to the wound, being a Fire-type not named Heatran sucks in this metagame, what with rain being just around every corner. Infernape is largely outclassed in just about every way; I'd say keep it C-rank at the most.

Also, don't use Fake Out on Infernape. Ever.

Well, with that regard you can argue why use almost any physical sweeper over Terrak? He's on S Rank for a reason, and I personally do believe Heatran and Infernape are two completely different mons. Ones made for a solid tank while the other is a sweeper. Not to mention its a great check to the popular Scizor...For example,

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.25 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For the record, Im not arguing that Infernape is better than the obviously better Terrakion...Im just saying he has his perks over it and is viable for B-Rank.

And whats wrong with Fake Out? A first turn hit and gurantees an opponent to flinch is bad because...?

Gary2346 · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:40:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

=====
update
=====

added Mienshao to C-tier
added Tornadus-I to B-tier
moved Haxorus up from C-tier ==> B-tier

====

No objections with adding Mienshao to C-tier and Tornadus to B-tier. Even with the existence of Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I is still a powerful threat because of its fast Speed and Hurricane. I you're doubting its viability in OU I would give this team a look.

Haxorus was a bit tricky to place. Even Genesect banned, the metagame wasn't very kind to it since everything hits fast & hard. That said, I got some mileage out of the CB set (I honestly think its better than CB Kyurem, since Haxorus can actually kill steel-types ) and the Dragon Dance set, which is pretty decent with a yache equipped. It's viability on DragMag teams speak for itself.

@Volcorona: You're going to have to sell me on why its A-tier. I understand that Volcorona is difficult to deal with once it's set up, but setting up sweep in this metagame is legitimately difficult. Rain is everywhere, and while you may argue that it just lets Volcorona abuse Hurricane, it also gives water-types a STAB boost which makes it easier to kill/weakens its Fire-STAB. Scarf Keldeo is around every corner, and can always revenge kill +1 Volcorona. Even Tornadus-T (who is omnipresent) is a good check since it resists all of its moves in the rain and can maul it with Hurricane. Even if we discount those incredibly common checks, is it really on par with the likes of Keldeo, Landorus and the majority of the offensive threats in A-tier? These are risk free sweepers who don't need SR removed to do their job and can function in almost any weather. In BW1, I wouldn't have hesitated to place Volcorona in A-tier, but its really a shell of its former self in BW2, and it shows. Volcorona is non-existent on the PS ladder, and before you cry foul and say "lol PS ladder" it wasn't very common on the Suspect ladder either (#29).

@Espeon: Yeah I'd say you've made your point Super Mario Bros. Any objections? I'm just about ready to move this thing to B-tier.

Volcarona fits just fine in B-Tier. Being 4x weak to Stealth Rocks which is pretty much a staple on any kind of team except maybe some hyper offence, really sucks for the big moth. Yes I agree that it's very dangerous if given the chance to set up, however it's extremely predictable and quite easy to revenge kill when at +1. Scarfed Terrakion, Mienshao, Infernape, and Keldeo under rain have no problem dealing with it even after a boost, and rain hurts it's sweeping potential by a long shot. I feel that the best way to use Volc is on a Sun team so it can get boosted Fire STABs, but on non weather teams that lack any way to change the weather it's quite difficult for it to KO with it's Fire type moves with the huge prevalence of rain. I definitely agree that Volcarona is NOT A-Tier material.

Quote:

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Pretty much sums up Volcarona right there.

RabidChipmunk · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:52:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Takion

Well, with that regard you can argue why use almost any physical sweeper over Terrak? He's on S Rank for a reason, and I personally do believe Heatran and Infernape are two completely different mons. Ones made for a solid tank while the other is a sweeper. Not to mention its a great check to the popular Scizor...For example,

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 354-416 (109.25 - 128.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO

For the record, Im not arguing that Infernape is better than the obviously better Terrakion...Im just saying he has his perks over it and is viable for B-Rank.

And whats wrong with Fake Out? A first turn hit and gurantees an opponent to flinch is bad because...?

I brought up Heatran to say he's on of the only Fire-type Pokemon who can be used on a non-sun team, since he actually finds use for reasons other than his Fire-type STABs. But I brought up Terrakion because Infernape is so overwhelmingly outclassed by him that it leaves Infernape with no valuable niche.

Also, Fake Out is bad because it's piss weak, will likely deal more damage to you than it will to the opponent (assuming LO), and as soon as you show it to your opponent, becomes incredibly predictable. I'd rather use Mach Punch in all circumstances; Mach Punch at least gets STAB and has type coverage.

~~superbadd~~ · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:59:13 PM

I also support espeon for B tier. Not only is epseon the face of Baton pass, but it is arguably one of the best deoxys-d counter along with one of the premier dual screen users.

Scarfwynaut · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:03:31 PM

Ok look here, Infernape is an utter piece of shit in this metagame a good majority of teams carry a direct counter to it, whether it be Latios, Latias, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Hippowdon, or even Slowbro. If they don't have it, they usually have the often have the offensive backbone for infernape to be a pointless threat, out speed or checking it with several members of their team, that or between hazards and passive weather damage, its going down. What advantage does infernape have over lets say anything in the S, A, or even B tier, it can't sweep, it can't wall break, its a shitty hazard setter. Infernape might have some use on a sun team and maybe it might be able to break apart a single pokemon on a balanced them, but honestly, there are better pokemon, use them.

Shurtugal · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:05:35 PM

Deo-D isn't used that much to make Espeon as viable as everyone says imo (because that's really the only reason you use Espeon; unless your full BP). BP is such an uncommon strategy, and it's also a field where diversity is limited so I would reckon that Espeon stay exactly where it is. Dual Screens are also decent at best in OU so I wouldn't advertise that as one of Espeon's pluses, especially when Azelf does it better (with fast taunts, U-turn, explosion, and faster screens).

~~superbadd~~ · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:09:21 PM

Common or not espeon makes BP viable. W/o espeon it wouldn't even be a decent strategy. Also, I wouldn't say azelf does it better considering it can be taunted itself and is ttar bait(espeon can escape due to BP).

Vemane · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

Anyone else think Volcarona should be A rank? I know it has a "crippling weakness" (namely SR), but it is just so ridiculously good when SR is not around that I reckon it should be better than B rank. If SR was NOT around, I'd seriously consider it being S rank. Anyway, even with Stealth Rock, Volcarona is still a huge threat, since a 50% Volc is usually still as likely to sweep a team as a 100% one. Stealth Rock, in most of the cases, is just an inconvenience that "prevents it doing its job consistently" (A tier description) rather than a huge crippling flaw that knocks it down two tiers. The fact that it has a number of sets that can let it be used in any form of weather, as well as bulky and offensive threats just speaks volumes of this thing's versatility, IMO.

Move Volcarona to A rank

The problem with Volcarona (besides sr weakness which, as you mentioned, is often whatever) is its awful coverage. Being hard walled by heatran is never a good thing. It's stabs are resisted by all fire types (chestorest, bulky sets, roost, etc.) and rain volc simply does not hit hard enough in many cases (non stab hurricane), at least on the things that hurricane is now supposed to cover.

It is very easy to set up, but it is so easy to wall that b rank seems like a nice fit.

masterful · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:18:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Vemane

The problem with Volcarona (besides sr weakness which, as you mentioned, is often whatever) is its awful coverage. Being hard walled by heatran is never a good thing. It's stabs are resisted by all fire types (chestorest, bulky sets, roost, etc.) and rain volc simply does not hit hard enough in many cases (non stab hurricane), at least on the things that hurricane is now supposed to cover.

It is very easy to set up, but it is so easy to wall that b rank seems like a nice fit.

I seem to recall another setup sweeper that was walled hard by Heatran, I think it was, um, RP Genesect? In all seriousness, rain really puts a damper on Volcarona, who already has an SR weakness. I think B tier is fair.

Shurtugal · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:18:14 PM

With dual screens you don't need to escape pursuit; you'd be bulky enough to set up both screens after reflect. Also, BP sucks on Espeon when using the screener set...

I never said Azelf outclased its other sets and the other sets are the only reason you'd need to BP out anyway. BP was viable before Espeon in DPPL so I don't see why it wouldn't be viable without it... Espeon does make it better but that's not a good enough reason alone for B tier. Espeon needs to stay where it is at.

Also, "common or not" -- it has a great deal to do if its common or not. Making Espeon B tier encourages more newer players to use an uncommon and non-diverse strategy....? Please, make a valid argument.

~~superbadd~~ · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:26:47 PM

What's so Non-diverse about BP? It's different than everything else. Priority taunt users are all around the corner and they threaten BP immensely w/o espeon, don't compare DPP to BW, they're too different. It's clear you haven't used espeon if you think BP sucks on the screener set, it's like using u-turn because it can instantly grab momentum while escaping potential pursuit users. BP helps so that it can come back in and set up screens multiple times through out the match, that's why it is best to keep it healthy rather than let it take the hit from tyranitar or scizor, which still hurts even after reflect. CB pursuit can still OHKO or come very close even after reflect. B tier is appropriate due to its invaluable niche on BP teams, it's excellent DS set, and the fact it can counter one of the more potent pokemon in the tier, deoxys-d.

Vemane · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:27:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat masterful

I seem to recall another setup sweeper that was walled hard by Heatran, I think it was, um, RP Genesect? In all seriousness, rain really puts a damper on Volcarona, who already has an SR weakness. I think B tier is fair.

Detailed Result:
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Heatran: 61.73% - 72.53%
2 hits to KO

Detailed Result:
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Genesect (+SpAtk) Thunderbolt vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Heatran (+SpDef) : 37.56% - 44.3%
Entry hazards damage: 48
After entry hazards: 193 - 219 (50% - 56.74%)
2-3 hits to KO

And gene required much less set up (a switch in was sometimes sufficient...) and it had much better coverage (as in, could hit a fire type for nuetral damage)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tyrannitar for S rank.

-Sand is just as integral to the meta as rain is (though arguably more well rounded)
-Pokemon like Landorus, Sandslash, and Terrakion receive massive boosts (terrakion less so, but that extra spdef allows it to tank very nice attacks #rpgenesect+1gigadrain)
-Tyrannitar, unlike politoed and ninetales, is a very nice pokemon by itself (in sand that is... unnerve ttar is godawful) in that it functions as a "good" weather summoner, and performs its job quite well as opposed to the other two main weathers
-Tyrannitar is capable of causing major damage with a choice band set, as well as get rid of large threats (lati@s, etc.) with its mixed/support sets (or band), simply adding to its capabilities as a supportive+offensive mon

Shurtugal · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:39:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What's so Non-diverse about BP? It's different than everything else. Priority taunt users are all around the corner and they threaten BP immensely w/o espeon, don't compare DPP to BW, they're too different. It's clear you haven't used espeon if you think BP sucks on the screener set, it's like using u-turn because it can instantly grab momentum while escaping potential pursuit users. BP helps so that it can come back in and set up screens multiple times through out the match, that's why it is best to keep it healthy rather than let it take the hit from tyranitar or scizor, which still hurts even after reflect. CB pursuit can still OHKO or come very close even after reflect.

It's non-diverse because not many Pokemon learn BP and even fewer are usable (THUS UN-DIVERSE). Priority taunters are everywhere...? Please explain that. T_T The only fast Taunt I've seen in OU is Tornadus's, that's not exactly a lot (especially since liable for ban). Your argument would've been stronger with "roar" over "taunt", but Mr.Mime's soundproof blocks roar's and Ingrain from Smeargle also grounds you. Ninjask often gives you a lot of speed to taunt most taunt users back anyway. Clearly, you've never played DPPL BP before. I suppose Espeon is not, but I don't see the point really. Dual Screening is supposed to enable fast set up and you can hardly ever get use of more than 1 round of Dual Screens anyway unless you royally fuck up; and the dual screener in question is usually weak as hell to get all screens back up another time.

EDIT:

Deo-D isn't that common, like say Rain or Sand. Not enough to warrant Espeon a huge plus.
Dual Screening rather sucks this meta. I have literally seen it 0 times this past year.
BP is such an uncommon strategy and un-diverse that it doesn't warrant Espeon enough of a niche than what is implied.

~~superbadd~~ · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:49:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

It's non-diverse because not many Pokemon learn BP and even fewer are usable (THUS UN-DIVERSE). Priority taunters are everywhere...? Please explain that. T_T The only fast Taunt I've seen in OU is Tornadus's, that's not exactly a lot (especially since liable for ban). Your argument would've been stronger with "roar" over "taunt", but Mr.Mime's soundproof blocks roar's and Ingrain from Smeargle also grounds you. Ninjask often gives you a lot of speed to taunt most taunt users back anyway. Clearly, you've never played DPPL BP before. It's also hard for BP to gain momentum with such high speeds on Espeon since it outspeeds a lot and therefore can't scout as good as U-turn, which Azelf gets. Azelf is a suicide screener; I suppose Espeon is not, but I don't see the point really. Dual Screening is supposed to enable fast set up and you can hardly ever get use of more than 1 round of Dual Screens anyway unless you royally fuck up; and the dual screener in question is usually weak as hell to get all screens back up another time.

Wtf? It's diverse in that it is a non-generic playstyle unlike HO or rain. Were the hell are you getting your definitions from? More viable playstyles=more diversity. Priority taunt users such as sabelye or whimiscott fuck up BP quite badly, regardless of the user's speed. And don't go with the whole, "they're not ou LUL and are uncommon", they're still a major threat that's now avoided due to espeon's presence. Another one is whirlwind which is commonly carried on walls like hippowdon and skarmory. It's unorthodox and works well on unprepared teams. Who cares about DPPL, that metagame is totally different than BW. By the way you explain what's wrong with it(DS set), it doesn't even look like you use it/know how to. You set up on walls or weak attackers. Trust me, I find it easy to set up DS more than once. Usage does not imply how good something is, so stop spewing that pathetic rhetoric.

Edit: People keep complaining that doexys-d is a broken threat and now I present you with a viable counter and you dismiss it because doexy-d isn't common, shit argument.

Shurtugal · Dec 29th, 2012, 6:54:21 PM

I'm not going to bother this pointless banter. Its seriously annoying. I remember the band Gene argument we had and that was shit so I'm not going into it (it went into one of your ears and out the other).

I'm going to address Vemane's proposal on S Rank TTar. I quite think TTar is amazing too, but I'm stuck between A tier and S tier, because of its distinct weaknesses to fighting and U-turn is what's hampering it to A Tier for me, but I'm all for discussion. TTar is just amazing this metagame, I especially love band Tar

Dec 29th, 2012, 3:03:28 AM	#1128
Super Mario Bro And the wind became...crazy Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 806 ♪ I'm Cloudbusting, daddy ♪	Yea, I completely agree with Volcarona to A rank. In fact, I'm surprised that it wasn't there before. Also, I'd like to bring up a previous point that wasn't addressed about moving Espeon to B rank. It's not only the best Baton Pass receiver in the entire game (Full BP wouldn't exist without Espeon), but it's also has niche roles on offensive teams. It's able to pass CM or set up fast Dual Screens, all while blocking hazards. Xatu is better at switching into hazard setters and Breloom, but Espeon has an offensive presence and access to Baton Pass, which makes it unique and effective enough to be Rank B. It's not worse than Xatu; it's just different. __________________ ♫♫

Dec 29th, 2012, 3:17:27 AM	#1129
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,210 PA	On Tornadus-N, its also a bit stronger than Tornadus-T. For example Tornadus-N has a pretty solid chance to 2HKO Chansey with superpower when Tornadus-T can't ever, even with rocks. Life orb is outclassed by Tornadus-T now but specs still has its merits. For example specs HP-ice garantees a 2HKO on spD Zapdos, a hurricane a 1HKO on Terrakion, it 1HKOs Gachomp 81% of the time (compared to 31% of the time for Tornadus-T), without rocks it 1HKOs Scizor 93% of the time as opposed to 43% for Tornadus-T. Overall there is about a 9% damage difference in power, so if you are running a quick hyper offensive rain team, it might be worth the toss up. You only lose out speeding Starmie, Alakazam, Dugtrio, and scarf-Tyranitar, so the speed loss isn't to much. __________________ VM me for a RMT rate if your team is defensive. I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown.

Dec 29th, 2012, 12:36:53 PM	#1131
PK Gaming Moderator Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,562 Sumuru city	===== update ===== added Mienshao to C-tier added Tornadus-I to B-tier moved Haxorus up from C-tier ==> B-tier ==== No objections with adding Mienshao to C-tier and Tornadus to B-tier. Even with the existence of Tornadus-T, Tornadus-I is still a powerful threat because of its fast Speed and Hurricane. I you're doubting its viability in OU I would give this team a look. Haxorus was a bit tricky to place. Even Genesect banned, the metagame wasn't very kind to it since everything hits fast & hard. That said, I got some mileage out of the CB set (I honestly think its better than CB Kyurem, since Haxorus can actually kill steel-types ) and the Dragon Dance set, which is pretty decent with a yache equipped. It's viability on DragMag teams speak for itself. @Volcorona: You're going to have to sell me on why its A-tier. I understand that Volcorona is difficult to deal with once it's set up, but setting up sweep in this metagame is legitimately difficult. Rain is everywhere, and while you may argue that it just lets Volcorona abuse Hurricane, it also gives water-types a STAB boost which makes it easier to kill/weakens its Fire-STAB. Scarf Keldeo is around every corner, and can always revenge kill +1 Volcorona. Even Tornadus-T (who is omnipresent) is a good check since it resists all of its moves in the rain and can maul it with Hurricane. Even if we discount those incredibly common checks, is it really on par with the likes of Keldeo, Landorus and the majority of the offensive threats in A-tier? These are risk free sweepers who don't need SR removed to do their job and can function in almost any weather. In BW1, I wouldn't have hesitated to place Volcorona in A-tier, but its really a shell of its former self in BW2, and it shows. Volcorona is non-existent on the PS ladder, and before you cry foul and say "lol PS ladder" it wasn't very common on the Suspect ladder either (#29). @Espeon: Yeah I'd say you've made your point Super Mario Bros. Any objections? I'm just about ready to move this thing to B-tier. __________________

Dec 29th, 2012, 3:56:58 PM	#1132
Chou Toshio Hmmm... A name for the plan... Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 7,032 Sea Forest	I also support Espeon for b-tier. Magic bounce is annoying enough by itself, but with so many teams relying on offensive Pokemon like keldeo, garchomp, terrak, lando, thund (poke that fall just short of espeon's 110 speed), it' surprising how many offensive teams have no practical way of dealing with it. __________________ "Hmmm... a name for this plan..."

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:03:31 PM	#1140
Scarfwynaut Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 2,210 PA	Ok look here, Infernape is an utter piece of shit in this metagame a good majority of teams carry a direct counter to it, whether it be Latios, Latias, Jellicent, Tentacruel, Gyarados, Hippowdon, or even Slowbro. If they don't have it, they usually have the often have the offensive backbone for infernape to be a pointless threat, out speed or checking it with several members of their team, that or between hazards and passive weather damage, its going down. What advantage does infernape have over lets say anything in the S, A, or even B tier, it can't sweep, it can't wall break, its a shitty hazard setter. Infernape might have some use on a sun team and maybe it might be able to break apart a single pokemon on a balanced them, but honestly, there are better pokemon, use them. __________________ VM me for a RMT rate if your team is defensive. I am not Scarf Wynaut on Pokemon Showdown.

Dec 29th, 2012, 2:56:04 AM	#1127
DarkBlazeR Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 378	Throwing out my support too. What's really interesting at the moment is how few players currently prepare to deal with Volcarona. With a significant decline in the number of Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Landorus, players often find themselves unable to make a revenge kill without having to sacrifice multiple team members. With the sun up and Giga Drain, Scarf Keldeo, the premier revenge killer in BW2, will find itself struggling to take out a healthy Volcarona after it has a Quiver Dance boost. To be honest, I wouldn't say Volcarona even requires that much support. Sure, you ideally need Rapid Spin support, but that's not too much of an ask, considering how a Rapid Spin user is a great asset for all teams anyway. The support required extends little further than that - it's not fully dependent on sun, and after a Quiver Dance it can do serious damage to even some of its checks. If the sun is up, a +1 LO Fire Blast will OHKO 56/0 Gyarados, 0/4 Dragonite and 0/0 Salamence after they take Stealth Rock damage.

Dec 29th, 2012, 5:09:48 PM	#1134
Takion Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 89	Ill be nominating Infernape for B-Tier. I honestly believe this mon can be very viable even without a sun team. Its STAB Close Combat is nothing to joke about and makes it an effective sweeper. It also learns two priority moves, Fake Out and Mach Punch. I personally prefer Fake Out to break focus sashes, but both can be used well. It's speed is where its strength is at. It matches Terrakion speed, and with the rarity of Jolly Terraks, Hasty Infernape can one shot it with a CC. It also is a beast under the sun, and a can be a great counter to Venusaur. One of its STAB moves, Over Heat, can completely fool an opponent. For example, after Over heating, the mon special attack drops...which could imply for the opponent to set up on a weaker Infernape. It OHKO Volcarona, Ninetales, Kyurem-B and Thundurus-T with Stone Edge, not to mention it out speeds the latter pokemon. Other Versions can be used besides the mixed ape. It can be scarfed to beat other scarf user. Banded to increase the attack, or you can run a swords dance variant/special sweeper variant. Heres a Quick Replay: http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou6651532 Here are Calcs to support my statements: 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ninetales: 309-364 (88.28 - 104%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 801-951 (198.26 - 235.39%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 439-517 (112.27 - 132.22%) -- guaranteed OHKO 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 478-564 (147.53 - 174.07%) -- guaranteed OHKO 4 SpA Life Orb Infernape Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 257-304 (72.59 - 85.87%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 255-302 (78.94 - 93.49%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock 252 Atk Life Orb Infernape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 DefThundurus: 322-382 (107.69 - 127.75%) -- guaranteed OHKO *Not to mention after a fake out it can Close Combat a Politoed away.*

Dec 29th, 2012, 5:59:13 PM	#1139
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	I also support espeon for B tier. Not only is epseon the face of Baton pass, but it is arguably one of the best deoxys-d counter along with one of the premier dual screen users.

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:05:35 PM	#1141
Shurtugal Pro-OU! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 855 Florida	Deo-D isn't used that much to make Espeon as viable as everyone says imo (because that's really the only reason you use Espeon; unless your full BP). BP is such an uncommon strategy, and it's also a field where diversity is limited so I would reckon that Espeon stay exactly where it is. Dual Screens are also decent at best in OU so I wouldn't advertise that as one of Espeon's pluses, especially when Azelf does it better (with fast taunts, U-turn, explosion, and faster screens). __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:09:21 PM	#1142
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	Common or not espeon makes BP viable. W/o espeon it wouldn't even be a decent strategy. Also, I wouldn't say azelf does it better considering it can be taunted itself and is ttar bait(espeon can escape due to BP).

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:18:14 PM	#1145
Shurtugal Pro-OU! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 855 Florida	With dual screens you don't need to escape pursuit; you'd be bulky enough to set up both screens after reflect. Also, BP sucks on Espeon when using the screener set... I never said Azelf outclased its other sets and the other sets are the only reason you'd need to BP out anyway. BP was viable before Espeon in DPPL so I don't see why it wouldn't be viable without it... Espeon does make it better but that's not a good enough reason alone for B tier. Espeon needs to stay where it is at. Also, "common or not" -- it has a great deal to do if its common or not. Making Espeon B tier encourages more newer players to use an uncommon and non-diverse strategy....? Please, make a valid argument. __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:26:47 PM	#1146
~~superbadd~~ Banned deucer. Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 357	What's so Non-diverse about BP? It's different than everything else. Priority taunt users are all around the corner and they threaten BP immensely w/o espeon, don't compare DPP to BW, they're too different. It's clear you haven't used espeon if you think BP sucks on the screener set, it's like using u-turn because it can instantly grab momentum while escaping potential pursuit users. BP helps so that it can come back in and set up screens multiple times through out the match, that's why it is best to keep it healthy rather than let it take the hit from tyranitar or scizor, which still hurts even after reflect. CB pursuit can still OHKO or come very close even after reflect. B tier is appropriate due to its invaluable niche on BP teams, it's excellent DS set, and the fact it can counter one of the more potent pokemon in the tier, deoxys-d.

Dec 29th, 2012, 6:54:21 PM	#1150
Shurtugal Pro-OU! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 855 Florida	I'm not going to bother this pointless banter. Its seriously annoying. I remember the band Gene argument we had and that was shit so I'm not going into it (it went into one of your ears and out the other). I'm going to address Vemane's proposal on S Rank TTar. I quite think TTar is amazing too, but I'm stuck between A tier and S tier, because of its distinct weaknesses to fighting and U-turn is what's hampering it to A Tier for me, but I'm all for discussion. TTar is just amazing this metagame, I especially love band Tar __________________ If you want your team rated; feel free to PM or VM me for your own, personalized rate! If you want to learn how to battle and win; check out my guide! Feel free to check out my team in OU that peaked #1!