The OU Viability Ranking thread

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Qwertyaaaaaa

Politoed: WTF is 4mss. And fuck you mean ice beam is super rare, I've yet to face a Politoed without one. It's in every moveset in the analysis

Tornadus T: LOL STEEL SWITCH IN

Terrakion: True, but overall Terra beats Mence

Heatran: Or maybe the other guy doesnt send it out until you send out mence

Hippowdon: Still not the OHKO it needs. Ice Fang, lol

Lati@s: Scarf lati@s is faster than Scarf mence. Normal Lati@s is faster than Normal mence. More often than not the lati twins are going to go first

Ninetales: Oh wow. I never said that at all. I said that the matchup is actually in favor of mence but mence is screwed IF ninetales goes first it gets hit with status.

Rotom-W: Then it will get a will-o-wisp or a hidden power ice.

Starmie: Yeah but mence has to get the boost and not be crippled by anything beforehand

On your Lati@s point, I really think you are ignoring the Pokemon Salamence is paired up with. Scarf Latios? Sure, just let me trap your ass with Scizor (who is the most common Salamence partner according to moveset statistics). Hell, I was recently using CBTar with Lum Berry DDMence so Latios was never a problem. Latias? Well, Latias never runs Scarf anyway so Scarfmence or +1 DDMence will always beat it.

Also, I don't know if I'm the only person who realized this, but Hippowdon kind of loses to MixMence. It'll also have a hard time beating last-poke DDMence if it doesn't run Ice Fang. Well, newsflash, Whirlwind is more common than Ice Fang! You also ignore the fact that DDMence often runs Lum Berry, which kind of defeats your status argument. AND, not only was Lum Berry used more than Life Orb according to usage stats, it's also the first item slash on the Dragon Dance set on its analysis! Don't believe me? Go see for yourself.

Also, I'd just like to say that it's not particularly uncommon to see defensive Politoed without Ice Beam. As for your Scarf Terrakion point, well, Terrakion revenge kills Dragonite too, so what's your point? And don't even bring up any "Oh, Multiscale, Multiscale!" bullshit because Multiscale is nowhere near as good of an ability as people give it credit for, often only helping for one turn in the entire battle that more often than not doesn't change the outcome of the battle one bit. Dragonite is also beaten by Choice Scarf Kyurem-B; Salamence isn't. Adamant +1 DDNite (AKA the ONLY DDNite that exists, period) loses to Timid Scarf Politoed; Salamence doesn't.

You argued that Salamence is easy to revenge kill, but in my honest opinion, Dragonite is actually easier to revenge kill, especially since Multiscale is a factor that is so easy to remove. It's revenge killed by everything that revenge kills Salamence and more (Scarf Salamence itself, Scarf Kyurem-B, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Haxorus, Mamoswine etc.) Of these 7, only 4 reliably revenge kill Salamence. All of them reliably revenge kill Dragonite. Also, don't get me started on how piss-weak +1 ExtremeSpeed is, and no decent player is going to let their revenge killer get weakened to the point that +1 ExtremeSpeed will KO it. That's moronic. As for sweeping, a lot of physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon will hesitate to switch in on Salamence due to the mere threat of MixMence, and if you're actually going to throw your Skarmory right on in against a Salamence, you're a fucking idiot and are going to get nuked by Fire Blast (Dragonite needs +1 or CB to 2HKO with Fire Punch, so Skarmory can switch in much more easily).

That being said, both Dragonite and Salamence can sweep easily given the right support, and both can sweep far more easily than, say, Lucario or Toxicroak, who are in B rank. Therefore, both should be A rank.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

That being said, both Dragonite and Salamence can sweep easily given the right support, and both can sweep far more easily than, say, Lucario or Toxicroak, who are in B rank. Therefore, both should be A rank.

Toxicroak is pretty damn good in this meta, though. It's so easy to get an SD off Keldeo, Politoed, Jellicent, etc. You'd be suprised how many people switch in their Tornadus, only to die to Sucker Punch.

[LucaroarkZ]

I wasn't saying Toxicroak or Lucario weren't good; I was merely comparing how easily they can sweep compared to Dragonite/Salamence to give an idea of the latter two's tier placement. Just thought I'd clear that up. For example, while Toxicroak may be able to set up on many common Rain team members, it'll have a harder time setting up against other teams, while Lucario's setup opportunities are rather limited in general.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

I wasn't saying Toxicroak or Lucario weren't good; I was merely comparing how easily they can sweep compared to Dragonite/Salamence to give an idea of the latter two's tier placement. Just thought I'd clear that up. For example, while Toxicroak may be able to set up on many common Rain team members, it'll have a harder time setting up against other teams, while Lucario's setup opportunities are rather limited in general.

And on top of this Rain support is greatly needed in order to make Toxicroak more effective. Dry Skin and Leftovers gives it close to a quarter of it's HP back, allowing it to easily stall out certain Pokes such as Heatran packing Fire Blast, or even residual damage if the opponent is burned or Poisoned. Without Rain support Toxicroak is still viable, however if one were to go up against a Sun team and you lack weather support, then Croak will lose a lot of it's health due to Dry Skin.

[youngjake93]

Landorus-T and Thundurus-T need to switch places badly... Thundurus-T is probably the least overwhelming joke of a threat I've ever seen. If you have a resist or immunity to electric, it is pretty much worthless as it is too frail/slow to sweep with Nasty Plot. It has a lot of difficulty setting up and is easily revenged. Any choiced variant is very extremely super duper easy to play around and ends up sucking the life out of the team's offensive momentum quite frequently.
Landorus-T just counters so much of the metagame. It is like 4hkoed by Donphan's -1 Ice Shard lol which is just an example of its bulk(Garchomp's Outrage does a little less than that). That beast offensive stat is netting you 1hkos with zero offensive investment. It has versatility being able to sweep, defensive pivot, offensive pivot(best job), team support, etc.
The ONLY thing that hinders Landorus-T is the massive presence of Scald users because of rain. Especially bulky Scalders. However, Landorus-T offers just as much as Heatran does and Heatran has an A rank..

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Landorus-T and Thundurus-T need to switch places badly... Thundurus-T is probably the least overwhelming joke of a threat I've ever seen. If you have a resist or immunity to electric, it is pretty much worthless as it is too frail/slow to sweep with Nasty Plot. It has a lot of difficulty setting up and is easily revenged. Any choiced variant is very extremely super duper easy to play around and ends up sucking the life out of the team's offensive momentum quite frequently.

[BlackLight]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Landorus-T and Thundurus-T need to switch places badly... Thundurus-T is probably the least overwhelming joke of a threat I've ever seen. If you have a resist or immunity to electric, it is pretty much worthless as it is too frail/slow to sweep with Nasty Plot. It has a lot of difficulty setting up and is easily revenged. Any choiced variant is very extremely super duper easy to play around and ends up sucking the life out of the team's offensive momentum quite frequently.
Landorus-T just counters so much of the metagame. It is like 4hkoed by Donphan's -1 Ice Shard lol which is just an example of its bulk(Garchomp's Outrage does a little less than that). That beast offensive stat is netting you 1hkos with zero offensive investment. It has versatility being able to sweep, defensive pivot, offensive pivot(best job), team support, etc.
The ONLY thing that hinders Landorus-T is the massive presence of Scald users because of rain. Especially bulky Scalders. However, Landorus-T offers just as much as Heatran does and Heatran has an A rank..

Uh, yeah, Thundy-T is not nearly as bad as you make it to be. It has good ways to get in, its strong as hell, and its tough to revenge if its using Agility or a Scarf. Sure, Mamoswine gets it no matter what, but you can say that about quite a few things. Nasty Plot isn't a sweeper, its a wallbreaker, and it wrecks a ton of things at +2 (Blissey can't handle it, for example).
I agree about Lando-T, though, it is really solid, although its typing is a little lacking right now. Still, solid.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat BlackLight

Uh, yeah, Thundy-T is not nearly as bad as you make it to be. It has good ways to get in, its strong as hell, and its tough to revenge if its using Agility or a Scarf. Sure, Mamoswine gets it no matter what, but you can say that about quite a few things. Nasty Plot isn't a sweeper, its a wallbreaker, and it wrecks a ton of things at +2 (Blissey can't handle it, for example).
I agree about Lando-T, though, it is really solid, although its typing is a little lacking right now. Still, solid.

If you want a sweeper Thundy then use it's Agility set. Even without hazard support it can net a ton of KOs especially if it's running Thunder, and it has great coverage as well.

[blitzlefan]

Also, as far as coverage (being walled) goes, you know the infamous BoltBeam combo does wonders, and a STAB Thunder on a base 145 SpA is nothing to laugh at either. Boosting moves in Agility and Nasty Plot also provide some niche for it as a late-game sweeper/wall breaker. Lastly, base 101 Spe isn't TOO shabby, as though it is outsped by the Musketeer trio (quartet?), it outspeeds the base 95-100 dragon (think Kyurem-B, Haxorus, Hydreigon, and Salamence) while outspeeding the pixies too (Jirachi and Celebi).

[Qwertyaaaaaa]

Originally Posted by Fat LucaroarkZ

On your Lati@s point, I really think you are ignoring the Pokemon Salamence is paired up with. Scarf Latios? Sure, just let me trap your ass with Scizor (who is the most common Salamence partner according to moveset statistics). Hell, I was recently using CBTar with Lum Berry DDMence so Latios was never a problem. Latias? Well, Latias never runs Scarf anyway so Scarfmence or +1 DDMence will always beat it.

Also, I don't know if I'm the only person who realized this, but Hippowdon kind of loses to MixMence. It'll also have a hard time beating last-poke DDMence if it doesn't run Ice Fang. Well, newsflash, Whirlwind is more common than Ice Fang! You also ignore the fact that DDMence often runs Lum Berry, which kind of defeats your status argument. AND, not only was Lum Berry used more than Life Orb according to usage stats, it's also the first item slash on the Dragon Dance set on its analysis! Don't believe me? Go see for yourself.

Also, I'd just like to say that it's not particularly uncommon to see defensive Politoed without Ice Beam. As for your Scarf Terrakion point, well, Terrakion revenge kills Dragonite too, so what's your point? And don't even bring up any "Oh, Multiscale, Multiscale!" bullshit because Multiscale is nowhere near as good of an ability as people give it credit for, often only helping for one turn in the entire battle that more often than not doesn't change the outcome of the battle one bit. Dragonite is also beaten by Choice Scarf Kyurem-B; Salamence isn't. Adamant +1 DDNite (AKA the ONLY DDNite that exists, period) loses to Timid Scarf Politoed; Salamence doesn't.

You argued that Salamence is easy to revenge kill, but in my honest opinion, Dragonite is actually easier to revenge kill, especially since Multiscale is a factor that is so easy to remove. It's revenge killed by everything that revenge kills Salamence and more (Scarf Salamence itself, Scarf Kyurem-B, Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Latios, Scarf Keldeo, Scarf Haxorus, Mamoswine etc.) Of these 7, only 4 reliably revenge kill Salamence. All of them reliably revenge kill Dragonite. Also, don't get me started on how piss-weak +1 ExtremeSpeed is, and no decent player is going to let their revenge killer get weakened to the point that +1 ExtremeSpeed will KO it. That's moronic. As for sweeping, a lot of physical walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon will hesitate to switch in on Salamence due to the mere threat of MixMence, and if you're actually going to throw your Skarmory right on in against a Salamence, you're a fucking idiot and are going to get nuked by Fire Blast (Dragonite needs +1 or CB to 2HKO with Fire Punch, so Skarmory can switch in much more easily).

That being said, both Dragonite and Salamence can sweep easily given the right support, and both can sweep far more easily than, say, Lucario or Toxicroak, who are in B rank. Therefore, both should be A rank.

Ok, I see your point.

I still see ice beam on like every Politoed though.

[youngjake93]

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.
Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-
Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0
Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

[Lord of Bays]

252Atk +1 Salamence (Neutral) Outrage vs 252HP/252Def Leftovers Politoed (+Def): 68% - 80% (262 - 309 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Politoed is not a check to Salamence.

[Shurtugal]

It's a check in the respect it lives at full and revene kills... no? That calc only proves its not a counter imo since toed can RK, thus making it a shaky check.

[Sciztar]

But most Politoed run ice Beam, so it can stop Salamence as long as you don't switch into a Outrage from Salamence

[youngjake93]

If you switch Politoed in on the DD, then it tanks Outrage and KOs with Ice Beam^

I'd say Mence just got checked. That also puts +0 Outrage at about 50%? So if Mence Outrages instead of DDing, then Politoeds with Protect+Leftovers are guaranteed to not be 2hkoed.

I didn't really read the rest of that debate you guys are having, but Politoed is a Jolly Mence check.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.

Here's a list of all the Pokemon in OU who resist both Electric moves and Ice moves:

-Magnezone.
-Mamoswine.

Plus, Thundurus can run Focus Blast or Grass Knot for additional coverage.

Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-

HP Ice still has some might behind it when it's backed by base 145 SpA. Obviously who need to wear down any of the opponents bulkier Pokemon before Thundurus can break through them, but that's not an argument against it. Every Pokemon needs support, and Thundurus isn't asking for much.

Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0

First of all, no, if you have priority Thunder is still going to hurt, you just have to come in as a revenge killer. The only form of priority Thundurus is weak to is Ice Shard, and all that translates to is "Okay, Thundurus sweeps my opponent's team if I kill his Mamoswine." Again, Thundurus isn't asking for a lot.

And obviously Electric-immune Pokemon are a problem, but that's what Thundurus has HP Ice/Focus Blast/Grass Knot/teammates for.

Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

What? If Thundurus is saying "I'm going to Thunder/Boost/Sub," you're opponent will need to take drastically different courses of action to reply to any of those possibilities. And Zapdos most certainly does not have options; it can use a specially defensive set to counter Tornadus-T and that's it. Zapdos is much easier to play around.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.
Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-
Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0
Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

I'm going to just have to respectfully disagree with everything you're saying. Thundurus-T is one of the most deadly sweepers/Scarfers/wall breakers in the OU tier. I've been using an expert belt set on my rain team and I have to say that it's absolutely destroys everything. But in early BW2, I used a Life Orb Agility set and had no problem sweeping teams. Look at what it does to Jirachi!

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunder vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 204-242 (50.49 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

And that's Timid, though Modest is better on the Agility set IMO. A clean 2HKO on one of the premiere special walls in the tier is pretty fantastic, I think.

Also, you said that it's priority weak...but only Ice Shard is super effective. BP and MP are resisted, while Aqua Jet and Extremespeed are neutral.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Here's a list of all the Pokemon in OU who resist both Electric moves and Ice moves:

Magnezone? But FB would F*** it up pretty bad.

[Lord of Bays]

252/252+ Politoed is a check. At the start of the match when it has taken zero damage. At the end of the match, when you are using DD Salamence as an end-game sweeper like you should be, Politoed is not a check.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

Magnezone? But FB would F*** it up pretty bad.

Whoops :x gotta fix that...

Still, I think my point still stands.

[youngjake93]

I didn't say it is priority weak. I just said that, like all agility users, priority ends the party.
That Jirachi, with Protect+Leftovers, doesn't look cleanly 2hkoed.

Also, you can just look at the moveset stats that were released. It has switch-ins ranging from fast, to bulky offensive, to bulky all forcing out or KOing Thundurus-T. Mamoswine, Weaville, Blissey, Terrakion, Latios, Kyurem-B, Chansey, Latias, and Alakazam are there.

There are plenty of other options including Ferrothorn and Umbreon that also would work just fine. Focus Blast only has a 50% chance of hitting twice and I'm not even sure these two are 2hkoed by it. Ferrothorn actually gets a stronger Gyro Ball from Thunder paralysis and Umbreon rebounds back paralysis with Synchronize while healing itself. So they would both love to switch in on Thunder.

[G-Von]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

Whoops :x gotta fix that...

Still, I think my point still stands.

Yea you're right it does. Thundy-T is a big ass threat with the help of its troll-ass speed. I personally feel it is more suspect-worthy than Keldeo.

[LucaroarkZ]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

It's a check in the respect it lives at full and revene kills... no? That calc only proves its not a counter imo since toed can RK, thus making it a shaky check.

That calc was of defensive Politoed only, though. Here's Scarftoed:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 382-451 (118.63 - 140.06%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Specstoed:

+1 252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 382-451 (99.47 - 117.44%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

Ergo, only defensive 'Toed can check Salamence, and only if it runs Ice Beam (admittedly, most do, but it's not extremely uncommon to run into one that doesn't... especially considering 65% of Politoeds used it and Ice Beam is a staple on Scarf/Specs Politoed who were not particularly uncommon). It also needs to be pretty healthy to do so, and I'm pretty sure your Politoed won't be at max for most of the battle.

Anyway...

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Boltbeam coverage isn't even as good as everyone makes it out to be... Dark+Fighting or EdgeQuake is good.
Especially when the beam half is HP Ice -_-
Anything that resists/is immune to Thunder, has moderate bulk, or has priority, etc are all going to laugh off any of Thundurus's attacks... especially at +0
Maybe if Thundurus didn't scream "I'm going to use Thunder or use a boost/sub" every time it came in, then it could be a threat. For example, look at Zapdos. It actually has options. It can Roost, Sub, Heat Wave, Toxic, Roar, Agility then not die from 1 attack. I'm not saying Zapdos is better, but it is definitely not as easy to play around. That's saying something, considering Zapdos is UU.

The only relevant OU pokes that resist BoltBeam are Magnezone and Thick Fat Mamoswine, both of whom are slaughtered by Focus Blast if they're actually greedy enough to switch in. Thunder coming off of 145 base SpA is also going to hit like a truck, so have fun switching non-resists in on it unless they're fat and pink. A lot of the stuff that resists Thunder are weak to HP Ice, so I wouldn't say they'd laugh off all of its attacks.

Also, I'm sorry, but did you actually just suggest Umbreon in an OU thread? No offense, but that alone should invalidate your argument.

[youngjake93]

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions. I've used it a lot and it does wonders against Thundurus-T. Landorus-I is the only special threat that actually gave it trouble.. who by the way is much better than Thundurus-T.
HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

I mentioned Umbreon because Umbreon is good. It sure as heck is a much better special wall than the pink blobs everyone mentions. I've used it a lot and it does wonders against Thundurus-T. Landorus-I is the only special threat that actually gave it trouble.. who by the way is much better than Thundurus-T.
HP Ice is pitifully weak. Latias, for example, can boost in the face of Thundurus-T.

Ok, no Umbreon is NOT better than Chansey or Blissey. Even if it were better, it still doesn't mean squat. Yes, they counter Thundurus-T, so what? Pokemon have counters. Landorus-I can't hurt Latias either. Neither can Breloom. Does that make those bad Pokemon too? No, it doesn't. Base 145 SpA and 101 speed make him a fantastic Pokemon, especially when he can spam a move with the same base power as Hurricane. I don't think you've ever used him, or you wouldn't be making these absurd claims.