The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Now that Master of the Six Kings mentioned it, Celebi should go up to A rank! It can now once again cockblock rain teams with its SpD set, with only a few Pokemon rain team carry troubling it (Scizor, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine). Also the NP set just got a whole lot better and is officialy a big threat for any rain team to deal with. Your standard rain team can't wall Celebi at +2, which Celebi can easily get, and their only hope is revenge killing with something like Specs Jolteon, Specs Latios, or Band Terrakion.

CELEBI FTW!!!

I agree. The Nasty Plot set is getting better and better as threats to it are banned: first was Genesect. Second was Tornadus-T. At +2, nothing on a rain team can sponge its attacks, as Scizor is OHKOed by +2 Hidden Power Fire on rain, or by +2 Earth Power after Stealth Rock damage. Tornadus is a threat, but it is not as common on rain teams as its Therian form, and is much easier to deal with. Specs Jolteon and Specs Latios can both be dealt with Tyranitar, while Band Terrakion is easy to revenge kill. In fact, I can foresee sandstorm teams using more Celebi because of this. I can even foresee the NP set being over the Tank set on its Smogon analysis.

The offensive tank set unfortunately lost the ability to lure its biggest enemy on rain teams, and possibly take it out with Psychic or Hidden Power Ice after Stealth Rock damage. However, the offensive tank set is useful to be able to both check Keldeo more reliably than the NP set, and to not be offensively useless like the specially defensive set.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Now that Master of the Six Kings mentioned it, Celebi should go up to A rank! It can now once again cockblock rain teams with its SpD set, with only a few Pokemon rain team carry troubling it (Scizor, Tornadus-T, Mamoswine). Also the NP set just got a whole lot better and is officialy a big threat for any rain team to deal with. Your standard rain team can't wall Celebi at +2, which Celebi can easily get, and their only hope is revenge killing with something like Specs Jolteon, Specs Latios, or Band Terrakion.

CELEBI FTW!!!

Yeah looking at it now, Celebi is back to what it was before. It's a nice weapon against rain teams, and the NP set can definitely wreck shit. With its two big counters in Genesect and Tornadus-T banished, Celebi has less trouble doing its job, and can be a great weapon against rain teams. Celebi for A-Rank.

Also seconding Master of Six Kings on Alakazam. I really do not need to explain why.

[Master of the Six Kings]

Oh yes, i knew i had two Pokemon in mind, but couldn't remember the other. I agree with Celebi moving up to A rank, given the same removal of threats, and a much wider movepool/defensiveness capabilities. One thing to note though is that D-nite's special rain set may increase in popularity, as it is the last good Hurricane user and Celebi has to A) have Multi Scale broken and B) be carrying HP Ice to do anything to it as far as rain teams go. That said, it is definitively a solid Poke, i used it even with Tornadus and Gene around to some success, but their removal will certainly allow Celebi, A-zam and to some extent the Lati twins to function much more effectively.

Alakazam and Celebi for A-rank!

[Brave Bird spam]

Yeah I was wondering why a great anti-rain mon like celebi is sitting in B rank. I agrre with moving Celebi to A rank. The NP set is amazing with torn-t gone, too!

[flea]

Yeah, I'll join in on the choir that wants Celebi in A now. And just for fun, here are a few other musings I have about the tiering now that one of the biggest threats in the metagame is completely gone.

- Breloom to S? Yeah, it's still checkable, but Breloom just lost one of the biggest thorns in its side. You won't see too many Breloom having to run Rock Tomb anymore. It can incapacitate nearly all its counters with spore and blast through 3/4ths of the metagame with its ridiculously powerful technician-boosted STABs. Oh, and it's also got priority. Without a doubt among the biggest threats in the meta.

-Zapdos to C? Zapdos' viability, whether in terms of it's ability to check Tornadus-T to its viability checking other rain threats, has been discussed nearly to death by the suspect thread. However, I'm pretty sure that most agreed Zapdos is a mediocre pokemon in OU outside of being one of the best Tornadus-T checks, and Tornadus just went Uber. This should prevent it from being tiered the same as current powerhouses like Tentacruel, Gengar, Venusaur and Jellicent.

Jolteon to C? Another pokemon whose viability was largely dependent on its ability to combat Tornadus-T at least somewhat effectively. Without that niche, its speed stat isn't really that important any more...it's like, yay, you outspeed Alakazam...

Venusaur to A? I'm sure this has been mentioned quite a few times before, but this thing is already a nightmare under sun for any rain team to face, and now probably the best combatant to it that was found on standard rain teams is gone baby gone. I sort of see Venusaur like this- if you get Sun up permanently and remove Heatran/whatever counter the set you're running has, it is GG. That is an A-tier pokemon in my opinion. I mean, the thing almost has a win condition.


Or maybe I just think B rank is too crowded. I feel as though there are many pokemon in B that are waaaay better than some in the same tier.

[Lord of Bays]

As dangerous as Breloom is, there's still too many Pokémon that fear Spore and Spore alone, so once they work around that as we did before Tornadus-T's departure Breloom is only moderately dangerous. Possibly on the cusp of S, but keep Breloom in A.

Yeah, Zapdos and Jolteon for C. Once (if) Zapdos receives Lightningrod he needs another look, but that's it.

Venusaur is in B!? I had to drop Scarfmence for Scarf Latios specifically because I had nothing to outspeed this asshole and he would boost up to +2 and then proceed to KO the rest of my team. One of those threats that you either prepare for extensively or you lose. Venusaur to A, and I don't know why he wasn't there already.

[Takion]

Im in Favour of Alakazam and Celebi to A. Both pokemon have great coverage and can make or break a game.

What do you all feel about when Raikou gets his dream world ability volt absorb?

Also, has anyone tested out Weavile to full success?

[Bent1ey]

Venusaur to A is a no-brainer, Celebi to A sounds good too, solid poke.

[cocoon]

Originally Posted by Fat nygerman

Just because one pokemon blocks Mime, doesn't mean that it's cockblocked. Most Politoad run perish song. Most baton pass user lead with ninjask. If you perish song on the first time, baton pass user have to switch out. It you have a dragonite, you can dragon dance with inpunity against ninjask. It your taunt is faster, espeon can't block it.

You really don't know how BP works if this is what you're saying. MR. mine's existence to block perish song, and given the speed boosts passed on to it, it should have no problem doing so. Most politoad do not run perish, were the hell lare you even getting that from? BP users also have pokemon that stop setup sweepers, by either boosting along with them so that the boosts from the other pokemon are minute, or some pokemon even carry roar.

[alexwolf]

I fully support flea's suggestions! It is time for Venusaur to go in A rank, especially now that Rain teams don't have a solid answer to Sunny Day Venusaur anymore.

[cocoon]

Tornadus-i is actually a better answer to venusaur than its therian form. The main reason is because it has priority rain dance which shuts down venusaur, from then, it can use hurricane for the KO. Just wanted to point that out. However, I'm inclined to agree that venusaur is an excellent sweeper and can be an interesting pivot on stall teams alike. A rank for sure.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat Lord of Bays

Venusaur is in B!? I had to drop Scarfmence for Scarf Latios specifically because I had nothing to outspeed this asshole and he would boost up to +2 and then proceed to KO the rest of my team. One of those threats that you either prepare for extensively or you lose. Venusaur to A, and I don't know why he wasn't there already.

And even then, your opponent can use a Timid nature to outspeed Scarf Latios, making Venusaur somewhat unpredictable. It was a lot of time since Venusaur was worthy of A-Rank, and it still is.

[Lord of Bays]

Yeah, I've been incredibly fortuitous in that I haven't encountered any Timid Venusaurs.

[PK Gaming]

OK! Update
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Landorus up from A-tier ==> S-tier
Venusaur up from B-tier ==> A-tier
Celebi up from B-tier ==> A-tier
Landorus-T up from B-tier ==> A-tier
Zapdos down from B-tier ==> C-tier
Jolteon down from B-tier ==> C-tier

I should have moved Landorus to S-tier a long time ago. To make a long story short, Sheer Force Landorus is stupidly strong in BW OU. It's definitely in the same league as Terrakion when it comes to sheer strength (in fact i'd say its even stronger).

I'm a little hesitant on moving Alakazam to A-tier, though i'm not opposed to the idea entirely. Thoughts on this?

[Bent1ey]

Personally I think Alakazam should remain at B, it has its niche, but you're often better of running a Lati or going with another offensive type altogether, it can do its job but you can often find better options.

[TheWaddleDeeKing]

With Scizor being the number one used Pokemon right now? No. Too many scarfers and priority in the metagame hurt Alakazam. Maybe if it was bulkier it could do it, but with no real way to stop getting hit its just not good enough for A-tier. Even with sash it's hard to keep alive.

Alakazam at B-tier.

Also, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but I'd definitely nominate Keldeo for S-rank, if not for the fact that Sub + CM is extremely hard to get around, with only a few counters in the game that will be forced to take a Hydro Pump or something if behind a sub. In the rain it's even more deadly. Good typing and resistance to rocks is the cherry on the top.

[Super Mario Bro]

Hi PK Gaming, I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but is there any reason Espeon is still at C and Xatu is still at B? They have different niches, and I strongly disagree with the notion that one of them outclasses the other.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat Super Mario Bro

Hi PK Gaming, I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but is there any reason Espeon is still at C and Xatu is still at B? They have different niches, and I strongly disagree with the notion that one of them outclasses the other.

I wanted to do something about Xatu and dropping it to C-tier, but I ended up forgetting, sorry. You're right, they do completely different things, but my intent was to show that Xatu was just a better Pokemon overall. But as time goes on and Sun ends becoming less relevant, I think I should just go ahead and drop it into C-tier. Thoughts?

[LucaroarkZ]

I have not used Alakazam since the Genesect era, where it was undoubtedly B-tier at best, but now that there's nothing that outspeeds it without a Scarf except for Weavile and Jolteon (when talking about Pokemon that are actually viable in OU), it's probably better than it used to be. From my experience, Scizor is not even that good at checking Alakazam since SashZam just OHKOes with HP Fire, surviving Bullet Punch thanks to the Sash. Being one of the few Pokemon to outspeed ScarfTar without any Speed boosts is pretty cool too, especially since Tyranitar is not going to enjoy Focus Blast (In particular, ScarfTar is OHKOed by any Alakazam and BandTar has a high chance to be OHKOed w/o SR). Doubling up as kind of a revenge killer thanks to hazards being unable to break its Sash is pretty cool too, being able to revenge kill shit like Dragonite/Salamence/RP Landorus (if you have HP Ice) without being locked into said Weak Power Ice. I'm still unsure if it deserves A rank, though, but if it doesn't then I'd say it's high B.

Also, Super Mario Bro, Espeon does have its advantages over Xatu, but if you're not taking advantage of what Espeon offers (good dual screener, makes Baton Pass teams actually viable) you should probably be using Xatu since it has reliable recovery and can actually switch in on non-Stone Edge Breloom. I think the two are fine where they are. Actually, now that I think about it, Sun teams have become a little less prevalent then they were when everybody was using Lavos Sun, so maybe Xatu should be C-tier now.

[Shurtugal]

Espeon has already been discussed by me before. Xatu is overall better keep it at B imo

[Super Mario Bro]

Originally Posted by Fat PK Gaming

I wanted to do something about Xatu and dropping it to C-tier, but I ended up forgetting, sorry. You're right, they do completely different things, but my intent was to show that Xatu was just a better Pokemon overall. But as time goes on and Sun ends becoming less relevant, I think I should just go ahead and drop it into C-tier. Thoughts?

That sounds fine. I would prefer moving Espeon up to B-rank and leaving Xatu where it is, though. Xatu is great at blocking Deoxys-D, Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Breloom, while Espeon can set up fast screens and single-handedly makes BP teams viable (I've actually peaked on the ladder and qualified for suspects with full BP...it's not a gimmick).

But yea...Xatu down to C also works.

Also, Super Mario Bro, Espeon does have its advantages over Xatu, but if you're not taking advantage of what Espeon offers (good dual screener, makes Baton Pass teams actually viable) you should probably be using Xatu since it has reliable recovery and can actually switch in on non-Stone Edge Breloom. I think the two are fine where they are.

Those two roles of Espeon are a pretty big deal. What I can glean from what you said is:

Xatu --> better defensively
Espeon --> better offensively

Doesn't mean one is better than the other.

[Shurtugal]

Full BP isn't a gimmick but it isn't diverse either, so I'm always reluctant to call it a play style where creativity it extremely limited.

Dual Screens is legitimate so I do suppose it should go up to B, but I still feel even offensive teams have more of a niche from Xatu. Although CMSub pass Espeon isn't bad in sun!

I'm just on the fence with it. I find Xatu has more utility. SMB, what kind of teams besides full BP have you used Espeon on? Is its niche better than Xatu's? Just curious since admittingly I don't use Espeon all too much bar BP.

[Super Mario Bro]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Full BP isn't a gimmick but it isn't diverse either, so I'm always reluctant to call it a play style where creativity it extremely limited.

I disagree; I've actually built many full BP teams that all function differently from each other. My best team is slow and bulky, and uses mixed defensive Zapdos and specially defensive Venomoth as speed boosters. If I manage to get in a couple of defensive boosts, the team becomes incredibly hard to break, unless my opponent crits.

On a different team, I use different EV spreads, movesets, and Pokemon. Smeargle and Venomoth pass Quiver Dance, while Umbreon and Espeon are the main receivers. Ironically, Umbreon has an offensive EV spread, while Espeon is max HP / max Def Bold; this way, they can both hit decently hard with Stored Power. Even if the team does have a defensive core, I can't help but feel it is too fragile for my tastes, which is why I like my other BP team better.

Dual Screens is legitimate so I do suppose it should go up to B, but I still feel even offensive teams have more of a niche from Xatu. Although CMSub pass Espeon isn't bad in sun!

SMB, what kind of teams besides full BP have you used Espeon on? Is its niche better than Xatu's? Just curious since admittingly I don't use Espeon all too much bar BP.

Hyper offense. Setting up fast screens while blocking hazards is something nothing else is able to do, and it lets DD Nite come in with its Multiscale intact. Admittedly, HO isn't my thing, but I've faced some that use Espeon as the DS lead, and they are nasty.

I wouldn't say Espeon's niche is better than Xatu's, but it isn't worse either. It's just different.

[typon77]

So I guess I got end-of-the-page syndrome on my Landorus post. Anyways, what do people think of Landorus in S-Rank?

EDIT: My Original Post
I guess I wasnt at the end of the page :x

[mcdanger]

Originally Posted by Fat TheWaddleDeeKing

Also, I'm not sure if this has been brought up before, but I'd definitely nominate Keldeo for S-rank, if not for the fact that Sub + CM is extremely hard to get around, with only a few counters in the game that will be forced to take a Hydro Pump or something if behind a sub. In the rain it's even more deadly. Good typing and resistance to rocks is the cherry on the top.

I agree with waddle, a majority of his checks/counters are trapped and KOed by tyrannitar, or with rain, its sub calm mind set can muscle through them, bar jellicent, however it can sweep without rain. Overall its as threatening if not more then terrakion as it can surpass terrakions power with rain support, while requiring little support from the rest of the team