DuskMod: A major modification to the standard metagame

[Dusk209]

Nollan, I'd appreciate it if you didn't make announcements for me, especially if they are wrong. No new generations of pokemon are in development for DM, at least not for a while.

[Nollan]

Well, ok. Gotcha. Misheard, I guess. Is Sinnoh next (when you get to it) or no?

[The Dark Hero]

isn't Glaciate supposed to be Kyurem's signature move? You really shouldn't be giving it to random Pokes.

Also, I LOL'd at DD Flareon.

[Dusk209]

For legendary signature moves, I could always replace them with other moves that have similar effects and then buff said moves, but for now flavor is the least of my worries.

The only reason Flareon got Dragon Dance is to differentiate it from Arcanine.

Also, gen 4 IS the next planned generation due to the addition of perma sand and perma hail.

[Swamp-Rocket]

How does Paraect get Horn Leech when it has no horns?

I'm probably going to get around to playing on this server though - it looks really cool!

EDIT: I bet Beedrill got Anger Point cause he's mad since he got almost no additional moves and Butterfree got tons of stuff

[The Dark Hero]

Originally Posted by Fat Dusk209

For legendary signature moves, I could always replace them with other moves that have similar effects and then buff said moves, but for now flavor is the least of my worries.

The only reason Flareon got Dragon Dance is to differentiate it from Arcanine.

Does Eevee get DD as an Egg Move? (I don't see Flareon learning it by Level...)

DD Leafeon could wreak some havoc in the sun...

[Nozzle]

Oh jeez. Some things really stand out to me.


Lunar Dance: +1 Sp.a, +1 Speed

Finally a Special DD not limited to bugs and Lilligant.

Drought, Drizzle, Sand Stream, and Snow Warning: Last 5 turns unless holding a weather rock.

This would mean the metagame would be less weather centered. I like it!

Gust: no damage, removes hazards (no, it can't be spinblocked)
Barrage: 25bp, Fighting, Hits 2-5 times
Rage: 100bp, 100acc, normal type, confuses the user on use
Poison Jab: +1 Priority, 50bp, cannot poison

Can't wait to try these out.

Blastoise:
Stats: 92/74/110/94/110/60 BST = 540
Ability: Torrent / Rain Dish / Shell Armor
Movepool: +Shell Smash

Kingler:
Stats: 70/130/110/27/68/82 BST = 487
Ability: Shell Armor
Movepool: +Shell Smash

Omastar:
Ability: Shell Armor/Swift Swim
Movepool: +Paleo Wave

Shell Armor: Shell Smash is altered: +1atk, +1spa, +2spe. Def and spd do not get reduced.

Oh Jesus Christ. Aren't these things gonna be broken like hell?

Tentacruel:
Stats: 90/70/65/80/120/100
Ability: Rain Dish/Regenerator
Movepool: +Thunder Wave

Oh dear god. The only thing this thing lacked was good recovery outside of rain. Now it has it.

Blissey:
Stats: 255/10/10/90/135/40 BST = 545
Ability: Natural Cure/Regenerator
Moves: +Baton Pass

Regenerator Bliss... I'm speechless.

Mr. Mime:
Stats: 80/25/85/100/130/90 BST = 510
Ability: Illusion/Magic Bounce

Illusion Mr. Mime seems interesting. Gotta try it out. Magic Bounce doesn't seem bad either.

Pinsir
Type: Bug/Dark
Stats: 80/140/100/55/90/75 BST =
Ability: Shed Skin/Intimidate
Movepool: +Poison Jab, +Sucker Punch, +Night Slash, +Stone Edge, +Quick Attack (Level up)

I got excited when i saw the typing and the moves added. But why did Moxie get removed?

Gyarados:
Ability: Moxie/Intimidate/Water Veil
Movepool: +Sky Attack

Someone just got a good double STAB.

Zapdos:
Stats: 90/90/85/125/90/100
Ability: Volt Absorb
If Zapdos holds the Damp Rock, rain is automatically summoned for 3 turns
Movepool: +Hurricane

This might be good. But I think it will be a gimmick.

Cinccino
Stats: 75/110/60/60/60/125
Abiities: Skill Link/Technician
Movepool: +Icicle Spear, +Barrage

Goodbye Bullet Seed. Goodbye Wake-Up Slap.

Ferrothorn:
Ability: Iron Barbs/Battle Armor
Movepool: +Rapid Spin

This blew my mind. Rapid Spin? The only thing this guy lacked was rapid spin. >:O

Mienshao:
Ability: Technician/Regenerator/Reckless
Stats: 65/125/60/95/85/105
Movepool: +Doubleslap, +Icy Wind

Interesting Technician user over here.

Bisharp:
Ability: Moxie/Analytic
Stats: 70/125/115/60/70/70

This seems like an excellent TR sweeper.

Conkeldurr:
Ability: Guts/Sheer Force/Oblivious
Sheer force boosts hammer arm damage because of the hammer arm buff
Movepool: +Sucker Punch

Hammer Arm: Added 20% chance to lower opponent's speed

This looks really good!

Genesect:
Ability: Motor Drive
Movepool: -Explosion, +Self Destruct

Yes! Thank god Download is gone.

All in all this looks really fun!

[tehy]

I've always thought that ferrothorn having rapid spin was the weak link in the OU metagame, but gust seems a little cheap to me-unblockable hazards removal? Someone can spend several turns setting hazards, and you can unstoppably blow them away in one?

And considering arm thrust exists, you might want to sub that in for barrage? Poison jab also seems a little strong for a priority.

Btw, ignore anyone who complains about no crits. In a game like pokemon, where correct predictions can turn the tables in a second, there will always be suspense, unless you've nearly beaten someone. We could add in suspense by making one person randomly crash too. It's the worst part of the game and taking it out improves it immensely.

[MrCookie]

moxie on pinsir got removed because of bisharp. trust me, moxie+suckerpunch=fun

[MrCookie]

also, gust is tauntable

[Nozzle]

I know that moxie plus SP is fun. Hi Honchkrow.

[NoelYoshi]

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Seismic Toss
- Toxic

A great Special Wall, Wish user, and Cleric all in one, Blissey returns to take on the Supporting Wall role. Wish from its massive HP will usually refill a Pokemon's HP more than half, but usually it will even go to full. Heal Bell heals the Toxic and Will-o-Wisp effects that are more common with their perfect Accuracy. Seismic Toss is good for steady damage, but Flamethrower is an option if you want to make use of Blissey's new 90 Base Sp. Atk. Finally, Toxic allows you to rack up damage while supporting/walling.

[Dusk209]

Originally Posted by Fat Nozzle

Blastoise:
Stats: 92/74/110/94/110/60 BST = 540
Ability: Torrent / Rain Dish / Shell Armor
Movepool: +Shell Smash

Kingler:
Stats: 70/130/110/27/68/82 BST = 487
Ability: Shell Armor
Movepool: +Shell Smash

Omastar:
Ability: Shell Armor/Swift Swim
Movepool: +Paleo Wave
Shell Armor: Shell Smash is altered: +1atk, +1spa, +2spe. Def and spd do not get reduced.

Oh Jesus Christ. Aren't these things gonna be broken like hell?

I haven't had enough playtesting with these 3 to say if they're OP or not, but they haven't been that overpowered.

Pinsir
Type: Bug/Dark
Stats: 80/140/100/55/90/75 BST =
Ability: Shed Skin/Intimidate
Movepool: +Poison Jab, +Sucker Punch, +Night Slash, +Stone Edge, +Quick Attack (Level up)

I got excited when i saw the typing and the moves added. But why did Moxie get removed?

Pinsir doesn't have moxie because I wanted to differentiate it from heracross. Also, there are a LOT of moxie users, so I didn't want to add more.

Zapdos:
Stats: 90/90/85/125/90/100
Ability: Volt Absorb
If Zapdos holds the Damp Rock, rain is automatically summoned for 3 turns
Movepool: +Hurricane

This might be good. But I think it will be a gimmick.

It's actually very powerful, and not a gimmick - the combo of thunder and hurricane is great, and although 3 turns doesn't sound like a lot it can help pokemon like venusaur and kabutops revenge kill after the weather-bird dies.
Using standard items isn't useless, however. A scarfed eruption moltres is scary.

Bisharp:
Ability: Moxie/Analytic
Stats: 70/125/115/60/70/70

This seems like an excellent TR sweeper.

Actually, bisharp can sweep even outside of trick room using sucker punch+moxie.

Genesect:
Ability: Motor Drive
Movepool: -Explosion, +Self Destruct

Yes! Thank god Download is gone.

I'm actually considering giving it download again and nerfing it in terms of movepool. At the moment, Genesect is very overshadowed by the new threats.
What do you think?

[ElectivireRocks]

I have a couple of suggestions.

About freeze: not sure how I feel about its removal. It has a bad reputation for being "haxy" because there is no reliable way to inflict it.
However, compared to Gen 5 Sleep, I'd say it is not as powerful.
The new Sleep mechanics can cause a pokemon to be permanently out of commission for the rest of the match unless it stays in (becoming setup fodder), while freeze can potentially be cured on the same turn it was inflicted.
On top of it, anything that knows Scald, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Sacred Fire or Flame Wheel is essentially immune to freeze. Of these moves only Flame Wheel is useless, while two are extremely common (especially on water and fire types, both of which have little trouble against ice types) and two are given to powerful legendaries and see a lot of use regardless, so they can act as freeze absorbers in ubers.

Which leads me to the next point: how about turning Sheer Cold into a freeze move? It doesn't have to be 100% accurate - after all moves like Sing and Sleep Powder are still implemented in this mod and they can potentially make or break a battle.
It would give ice types a useful niche, while still being kept in check by the aformentioned fire and water types (and other ice types, since they're immune to freeze).
Kyogre would admittedly be broken, but in that case you could just remove Sheer Cold from it.

The next point is about ice types themselves - an extra resistance would be nice. I'd dare say Dragon would be the most appropriate. In theory they're supposed to be dragon "counters", in practice they're destroyed by STAB Outrages and Draco Meteors.
They would certainly not replace steel types because their defensive type would still be bad.

That's all, I think.
Good job for the mod, it seems a lot of fun and it's pleasantly refreshing to see different pokemon other than the usual 20 top OU's being used more often.

[MrCookie]

actually, i would think that a resistance to water and grass would be more appropriate on ice, due to flavor

[Dusk209]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

About freeze: not sure how I feel about its removal. It has a bad reputation for being "haxy" because there is no reliable way to inflict it.
However, compared to Gen 5 Sleep, I'd say it is not as powerful.
The new Sleep mechanics can cause a pokemon to be permanently out of commission for the rest of the match unless it stays in (becoming setup fodder), while freeze can potentially be cured on the same turn it was inflicted.
On top of it, anything that knows Scald, Flare Blitz, Fusion Flare, Sacred Fire or Flame Wheel is essentially immune to freeze. Of these moves only Flame Wheel is useless, while two are extremely common (especially on water and fire types, both of which have little trouble against ice types) and two are given to powerful legendaries and see a lot of use regardless, so they can act as freeze absorbers in ubers.

The problem with freeze is that it, unlike sleep, can last as long as the RNG wants it to. This turns it into the kind of thing that ruins matches and pisses everyone off. Also, not every pokemon runs a thawing move, and to be honest, a LOT of people don't even know that mechanic exists. Freeze as a concept is pointless and frustrating, especially when nobody intends to inflict it in the first place - they just want to hit you with an ice attack.

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

Which leads me to the next point: how about turning Sheer Cold into a freeze move? It doesn't have to be 100% accurate - after all moves like Sing and Sleep Powder are still implemented in this mod and they can potentially make or break a battle.
It would give ice types a useful niche, while still being kept in check by the aformentioned fire and water types (and other ice types, since they're immune to freeze).
Kyogre would admittedly be broken, but in that case you could just remove Sheer Cold from it.

Implementing a freeze status move would allow players to bypass the sleep clause. Unless of course, I code in a "Sleep / Freeze Clause," but that would be just silly.

Also, freeze is still stupid even if it has a reliable status move for it.

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

The next point is about ice types themselves - an extra resistance would be nice. I'd dare say Dragon would be the most appropriate. In theory they're supposed to be dragon "counters", in practice they're destroyed by STAB Outrages and Draco Meteors.
They would certainly not replace steel types because their defensive type would still be bad.

Originally Posted by Fat MrCookie

actually, i would think that a resistance to water and grass would be more appropriate on ice, due to flavor

These ideas could work, although I don't like changing the type chart too much - I only did it for poison because it was arguably the worst type ever.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

How does Paraect get Horn Leech when it has no horns?

Mostly because it needed a better STAB than seed bomb, and because I think more about gameplay than I do about flavor.

Originally Posted by Fat Swamp-Rocket

I bet Beedrill got Anger Point cause he's mad since he got almost no additional moves and Butterfree got tons of stuff

Beedrill did get a big buff:
Ability: Anger Point / Sniper

Twineedle - 20 BP Always Crits (2 hits)

Essentially, it gets a 120bp bug type move with no downside, which also works well against substitute users and defensive boosters.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

How would you compare this project to genNext?
Are your goals different?
Why use this mod rather than that?
Why do you change stats instead of other things?

[akela]

Originally Posted by Fat Yarnus of Bethany

How would you compare this project to genNext?
Are your goals different?
Why use this mod rather than that?
Why do you change stats instead of other things?

... Moves, abilities, pokemon abilities, movesets and items are also changed. What else would you want him to change? How algebra is performed?

[Yarnus of Bethany]

GenNext also changes all of the above. Why is this better?

[ElectivireRocks]

Originally Posted by Fat Yarnus of Bethany

How would you compare this project to genNext?
Are your goals different?
Why use this mod rather than that?
Why do you change stats instead of other things?

Pardon the ignorance, what's GenNext?

[Yarnus of Bethany]

https://github.com/Zarel/Pokemon-Sho...xt/GEN-NEXT.md

[tehy]

Originally Posted by Fat Yarnus of Bethany

GenNext also changes all of the above. Why is this better?

A different person made different changes to an incredibly complex system.

Why is GenNext better?

Edit: No crits. That's the number one improvement to ever happen, ever. No more game-ruining bullshit where you outthought and out-strategized your opponent, only to get fucked in the ass by the gods of luck. No more making perfectly logical moves that look stupid, only for the surprise to be ruined. Crits take a game full of strategy, thought, and prediction, and add a major, random advantage to one side. Same goes for freezes. Even if that was the only change, it'd be 200% better than Gennext.

Double Edit: You might not have intended for it to happen, but it totally did. And no they cannot akela, Duskmod will destroy GenNext and feed upon its remains, growing ever stronger... until not even Gamefreak itself rivals its ungodly might.

[Dusk209]

from the faq, which was around for a while but I've just added to the main post:

Q: Isn't this just a ripoff of Zarel's Gen NEXT project?
A: I'd like to believe that both my project and Zarel's have widely differing goals in mind - while Zarel is looking to make the OU metagame diverse and fresh, I look to increase competitiveness, raise the skill ceiling, and put a heavy emphasis on balance. Also, I don't intend for DuskMod to be "better" than Gen NEXT. I love Gen NEXT just as much as the next guy.

Also, some more huge differences between gen next and this:

• No Crits
• Auto transform into Darmanitan-Z without use of that stupid Zen Mode ability everyone hates
• Gameplay is paid attention to more than Flavor (for the most part)
• Focus on one generation at a time in order to ensure balance
• Much more different than the standard games

[akela]

I feel like I must ask. Why do you need to compare this to Gen Next? Can the two mods not coexist? Should we not enjoy both of them?

[Arizona]

First of all, this is a very cool idea that has my support. I have never sympathized with the arguments that "hax is a part of pokemon." Yes it is. A bad part. In fact the number of ways one can outplay the opponent yet still lose is probably the worst part of pokemon. Illness is a part of life; I suppose we should also give up trying to cure diseases? Hax is a blight on the good parts of the game: team building, metagame analysis, prediction, and mindgames.

And guess what isn't "part of the game?" Tiers. Sleep Clause. I guess the cartrige metagame can be improved on, huh?

Is there any broad metagame analysis for this yet? A viability ranking list would be a cool objective that would help new players orient themselves. It sounds premature, but frankly other tier's viability ranking are living, changing lists as well. It would help direct research into new sets.

I'll start with some guesses at S, in order of most to least likely in my mind.

Chandelure: Shadow Tag>>>Trick+Calm Mind+15SpA. With a Scarf, Chandelure puts even the buffed Dugtrio to shame. Shed Shell + Flash Fire poke is an effective lure to it (lol), but otherwise a huge number of pokemon are easy pickings.

Dragonite/Haxorus: With no perma-rain, Chandelure will find it easier to remove the limited number of Kanto and Unova steel types than even Magnezone would, clearing the way for one of these two to Outrage to victory. Chandelure can also counter-revenge Ice types with ease. Outrage is better than Draco Meteor because 'Lure and Mag are naturally talented at removing physical walls. DragMagLure could be a team to watch out for.

Keldeo: Didn't gain too much, but lost three gens worth of competition. Rain is gone, but Ice Beam and Water Absorb are comforting consolations: I think only Jellicent can resist Water/Fight/Ice coverage. Scratch that, there's Tentacruel, the Slowbrothers, and Starmie. Still, you aren't likely to find more than one per team and Electric does a number on all of Keldeo's counters.

Mr. Mime and/or Cryogonal: Very good special walls with the best ability for walls--maybe even the best ability of all. Both can set up dual screens. Mr. Mime has many advantages--typing, offensive movepool, Nasty Plot, Baton Pass--but Cryogonal has a saving grace: Recover. Cryogonal can Toxic stall and is harder to wear down. These two will compete, but I expect at least one to end up here. Sorry Espeon, you just don't have the bulk. Maybe you'll make A-rank.

Candidates for top physical sweepers: Krookodile, Klinklang, Shell Smashers, Sawsbuck. I have no idea which will come out on top: Krook is a runaway train; Klink and the Smashers have premier boosting capability and solid typing defensively; and Sawsbuck is an Extremekiller lookalike with 120 base attack, a newly 90BP Horn Leech, STAB Extremespeed, Swords Dance, and a choice of good coverage.

Mew: The biggest things helping Mew are the no shows from Johto, Hoenn, and Sinnoh. That said, Wonder Skin is a nice upgrade from Synchronize, and Psystrike is a fantastic attack for a Nasty Plot set to breeze past special walls. Mr. Mime can block it only temporarily. #151 is versatile and unpredictable as ever.

An all out attacker could end up S-rank as well.

A category I'm not seeing any S-rank material is physical wall. Rhyperior, Weezing, Tangrowth, Steelix, Ferrothorn, Mandibuzz, and Cofagrigus are the pokes I'm noticing, but none scream "Top level" to me. Mandibuzz and Weezing are the only possibilities: Chandelure won't pick them off in one hit and they have good abilities.