The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[Hack He Must]

Ok, I think we are very off topic here, but I feel like I have to throw in my five cents on Ditto's placements as well as Squidsauce's apparent misunderstanding of how the ladder works. Now, I will refer to Weighted Stats FAQ (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478570) where it is stated that the reliable way of estimating a player's skill is through Glicko2, and as you see on you ladder screenshot you are actually behing the #2 player on the ladder concerning Glicko2 as well as deviation, which is also important, as you only played 20 games. However, I respect you ladder achievement and its cool and all, but I hope you understand that being "250 points above #2" is a very subjective statement regarding both skill and well, the ladder rating itself.

Now why Ditto is in C-rank is very simply, it sucks against stall. As for this, I would like to bring up the guidelines for that very rank.

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

Now Ditto can of course copy itself into the opponents Forretress and spiking up, or Ferrothorn doing the same. The incredible risk of being entirely crippled by the extremely common Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, as well as being set up fodder for Calm Minder users by locking itself into a support move against a balanced team, makes Ditto indeed heavily crippled outside its specific niche, which it can perform. With the right support you have managed to have a relatively hax free and judging by it, safe, run on the ladder which netted in a #1 spot, and your team has surely found such support for Ditto to work, but outside its role of revenge killing set up sweepers and occasionally stopping Deoxys-S leads, it is simply not that effective.

[Squidsauce]

Originally Posted by Fat Hack He Must

Ok, I think we are very off topic here, but I feel like I have to throw in my five cents on Ditto's placements as well as Squidsauce's apparent misunderstanding of how the ladder works. Now, I will refer to Weighted Stats FAQ (http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478570) where it is stated that the reliable way of estimating a player's skill is through Glicko2, and as you see on you ladder screenshot you are actually behing the #2 player on the ladder concerning Glicko2 as well as deviation, which is also important, as you only played 20 games. However, I respect you ladder achievement and its cool and all, but I hope you understand that being "250 points above #2" is a very subjective statement regarding both skill and well, the ladder rating itself.

Now why Ditto is in C-rank is very simply, it sucks against stall. As for this, I would like to bring up the guidelines for that very rank.



Now Ditto can of course copy itself into the opponents Forretress and spiking up, or Ferrothorn doing the same. The incredible risk of being entirely crippled by the extremely common Thunder Wave from Ferrothorn, as well as being set up fodder for Calm Minder users by locking itself into a support move against a balanced team, makes Ditto indeed heavily crippled outside its specific niche, which it can perform. With the right support you have managed to have a relatively hax free and judging by it, safe, run on the ladder which netted in a #1 spot, and your team has surely found such support for Ditto to work, but outside its role of revenge killing set up sweepers and occasionally stopping Deoxys-S leads, it is simply not that effective.

Point taken: never talk about ladder ranks lol.

Ok I guess I'm alone with ditto. I'll say that I've played many stall teams and it's always a great asset for me, especially for scouting movesets.

But perhaps it just fits well on my team and is very well C rank. I'll agree to disagree, and leave it at that.

[Sweep]

I like Ditto myself...great for discouraging your opponent from abusing dangerous set-up sweepers. The inability to copy the opponent's item (like Soul Dew, Griseous orb, plates, etc) really haunts it though. Perhaps you are simply really good at using Ditto? I am very good at using Omastar, a "C" rank pokemon, but cannot get Rayquaza or Mewtwo to work for me to save my life.

[jonathanrp]

omastar is not a bad pokemon at all, at +2/+2 it's going to wreck basically everything. The problem is that it has a hell of a time setting up.

[Rayquaza_]

I'm proposing to move Scizor down to D-rank.
Not only is it a liability to most teams because of its low speed and special bulk, but everything it does, Genesect does better.

Scizor is often a free switch in or setup bait for Reshiram, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, several Arceus formes, Genesect, Blaziken, Thundurus, Giratina, Groudon, Magnezone and Landorus-T. Good luck finding a uber team that doesn't carry 3 or 4 of them.

Literally the only thing Scizor has over Genesect is priority in the form of Bullet Punch, but Steel is far and away the worst attacking type in Ubers, with fire, water, electric and steel types being everywhere.
Besides the only real uses for Bullet Punch are revenge killing the Kyurem formes and Tyranitar, but Genesect can do that with Iron Head as it naturally outspeeds all three of them.

It's too slow to try anything else and its special bulk sucks, so don't even mention Swords Dance. Hell, it's even OHKO'd by Kyurem-W's specs Draco Meteor after SR so it can't even switch on the main thing it's supposed to counter. Genesect's special bulk isn't much better, but it's high enough to be able to take neutral and resisted attacks, something Scizor has a very hard time doing.

[lousy918]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

I'm proposing to move Scizor down to D-rank.
Not only is it a liability to most teams because of its low speed and special bulk, but everything it does, Genesect does better.

Scizor is often a free switch in or setup bait for Reshiram, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, several Arceus formes, Genesect, Blaziken, Thundurus, Giratina, Groudon, Magnezone and Landorus-T. Good luck finding a uber team that doesn't carry 3 or 4 of them.

Literally the only thing Scizor has over Genesect is priority in the form of Bullet Punch, but Steel is far and away the worst attacking type in Ubers, with fire, water, electric and steel types being everywhere.
Besides the only real uses for Bullet Punch are revenge killing the Kyurem formes and Tyranitar, but Genesect can do that with Iron Head as it naturally outspeeds all three of them.

It's too slow to try anything else and its special bulk sucks, so don't even mention Swords Dance. Hell, it's even OHKO'd by Kyurem-W's specs Draco Meteor after SR so it can't even switch on the main thing it's supposed to counter. Genesect's special bulk isn't much better, but it's high enough to be able to take neutral and resisted attacks, something Scizor has a very hard time doing.

most of this applies to genesect, genesect also lacks trapping abilities and bulk to take more than one hit.

[blitzlefan]

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

I think Scizor matches this description, as though it's main niche is beating out the Kyurem forms, it does it pretty well and priority STAB is always good for late game cleaning. It does generally suck outside of these parameters though.

[moonbase]

I'm must say this again because my original post did not get anywhere. Put Sableye in C tier, simply because it it can check every single physical attacker in the Ubers tier, it can recover off the damage taken and do some major damage to ubers pokes because of foul play. And for all of you guys that told me that is it set up fodder for special attackers, that is exactly what prankster +taunt is for. If you predict right it is a invaluable asset for a team in need of a spinblocker.

PS: I admit that Will O Wisp does miss sometimes, but so does Draco Meteor and Bolt Strike, and Blue Flare, and Focus blast and phycho boost ect. The list goes on and on, so will o miss is not a valuable arguement IMO because these other moves miss and are sometimes unreliable, but even still people use them, and almost every single threat in ubers has that problem

[bobbyvaporeon]

Ho-oh write up:

Ho-oh is a perfect tank in the Ubers meta. With an astounding special defence stat of 154, as well as a great attack stat, Ho-oh can take most special hits and hit back. It's signature move Sacred Fire has a high Burn rate, with a good 100 Base Power. Ho-oh can even run a defensive set with Roost and Recover.
The only things that keep Ho-oh from going to S rank is it's horrible 4x weakness to Stealth Rock, as well as Weaknesses to Electric and water, both very common. The phoenix also has a very average 90 Speed stat, and the fact that Kyogre can limit it's effectiveness completely hinders is. That said, Ho-oh has always been a force in the Ubers metagame, and will continue to be.

[blitzlefan]

Regarding the ho-oh write up, you need to mention its shortcomings, especially it's huge stealth rock weakness, slow base 90 speed, and how it benefits from sun and is hindered by rain. Don't forget regenerator and common weaknesses in water, electric, etc.

[Hack He Must]

I actually already wrote up Ho-oh a long time ago, in the same post I wrote about Groudon (which got accepted), and my write up certainly better.. I guess the part was somehow forgotten as it wasn't on Tobes rejection list or accepted list at that time. I'll just quote it here again:

Considering Ho-oh rarely finds usage on the most common archetype of teams (rain) in the tier, one might expect Ho-oh to be one of those "low A-rank mons." This is far from the truth as Ho-oh is simply put one of the hardest Pokémon to switch into in the game, and if it weren't for Stealth Rock stripping 50 % of its health by switching in, Ho-oh would be right up there in S-rank with Kyogre and friends. The reasons for Ho-oh's greatness lies in three great traits, the first one being the excellent distributed stats; where the Special Defense (154 base) stands out as jaw-dropping together with its potent 130 base Attack. This makes Ho-oh a great check to common Calm Mind users, such as Arceus Ghost. The second greatness is fantastic moves; its signature Sacred Fire which spreads burns as well as outright murdering enemies and Brave Bird, a 120 base STAB attack. Also, to complement this, Ho-oh has reliable recovery and Flame Charge to boost its speed while attacking. The third greatness about Ho-oh came in BW2, and we are obviously talking about its Dream World ability, Regenerator, which heals 33 % of its health by switching out. Common sets include the Subroost set, which sets up on common spikers and walls, and the Flame Charge set, which attempts to sweep by boosting its speed.

If you can find a way to prevent Stealth Rocks on your side of the field, Ho-oh will become a monster that can net 2-3 KOs per match. With all this good points, there is obviously that big flaw which is Stealth Rock. With them up, Ho-oh can't nearly check as many threats as it would like. While it might be hard to use correctly, there still isn't much reason not to use it on your sun team.

[Rayquaza_]

My write-ups for Kyurem-W and Kyurem-B:

(Kyurem-W)

Kyurem-W is the Pokemon equivalent of an atomic bomb. This monster boasts an outreageous special attack stat of 170, a powerful STAB combination that hits many ubers for SE damage, excellent coverage moves that cover the one type (steel) its STABs don't hit for at least neutral damage, an ability in Turboblaze that makes even the mighty Lugia shiver in fear and a convenient speed tier that allows the icy dragon to outpace many common threats such as Groudon, Kyogre and Dialga.
While defensively Kyurem-W is not exactly stellar due to its common weaknesses and vulnerability to entry hazards including a SR weakness, it's not terrible either with its solid 125/90/100 defensive stats and useful resistances: if it manages to switch in safely, it's almost guaranteed to take something out.

(Kyurem-B)

While its brother Kyurem-W was blessed with all the STAB and coverage moves it could possibly ask for, Kyurem-B got the short end of the stick with a suboptimal physical movepool that fails to fully take advantage of its monstrous 170 attack stat.
Despite this, Kyurem-B still holds its own as a powerful mixed attacker, being able to hit many ubers on their weaker defense with its undeniably powerful physical attacks as well as being able to deal with physical walls with its solid special attacks.
While 120 special attack isn't groundbreaking in ubers, it's not bad either and allows Kyurem-B to dispose of physical walls like Groudon and Gliscor with Ice Beam and hurt steel types with either Focus Blast or Earth Power.
Of course Kyurem-B can also simply stick to what it does best, that being massacring every non-steel type in sight with choice banded Outrages (though non-physically defensive ones can still be 2HKO'd).
Kyurem-B, like its white counterpart, is vulnerable to entry hazards (especially Stealth Rock) and has some nasty weaknesses, which is partially countered by its good bulk and key resistances to water, electric and grass.
While most teams might prefer Kyurem-W, if you need a pokemon that can punch sizeable holes from both ends of the spectrum and have a way to deal with steel-types, Kyurem-B is a solid option.

[MeteorMiss]

I'd like to nominate Keldeo for C-rank. It holds a semi-unique speed tier and is a good wallbreaker, specifically allowing rain teams to beat ferrothorn. However, it struggles against offense (since it can't OHKO Palkia) and has problems against Giratina.

[lousy918]

it also loses to latias, which is like a really bad thing

[Melee Mewtwo]

Okay, so I think I understand the different ranks now.

Just to make sure

---

A rank are the guys that are always solid choices and can accomplish multiple things.

B rank are still strong choices but they aren't as generally amazing. They tend to only have one key set that they are really good at doing and maybe some lesser and generally rare sets.

C rank are still possible choices but they are dependent on their niche to earn their place on the team.

D rank are horrible Pokemon that have a single small niche that gives it a pathetic excuse for use. (You still shouldn't though)

That said there are two Pokemon that I think are very much worth consideration for a rank advancement from B to A.

Skarmory: The first major advantage that jumps out about this Pokemon is its access to the infamous Spikes. As a tier where hazards are the most dominant factor adding a second level that the game is fought over, being able to setup Spikes in Ubers instantly makes a Pokemon more viable as few teams go without this crucial hazard. With solid defensive stats, a excellent defensive typing as well as instant recovery, Skarmory is an effective and reliable defensive Spike setter. Sturdy with Stealth Rock, Taunt and Whirlwind also makes it a possible suicide lead for Offensive teams looking to get multiple layers down early.

Skarmory isn't just a solid Spike setter, it is also a effective wall and a great choice for a Stall team. Again, its good defensive stats and amazing typing lets it serve as an outright counter to the infamous Ekiller (screw Overheat) as well as a passable check to CM Ghostceus, two S rank Pokemon. It also serves as an excellent check/counter to every SD Arceus form lacking certain rare coverage choices, Genesect lacking Thunder/Flamethrower (Flame doesn't work under rain), Physical variants of Giratina-O, most defensive Latias variants, any Landorus-T set, tank/defensive Ho-Oh under Rain, any Groudon lacking a fire attack, Excadrill, Gliscor (good Gliscor run Taunt) and just about any physical threat lacking Bolt Strike or a strong Fire attack outside of Rain. It doesn't stop there, that Steel/Flying typing means that Skarmory is immune to all forms of Spikes while remaining neutral to SR. Having Taunt and Whirlwind top it off as a premier wall by allowing it to phaze out threats and rack up hazards damage as well as shut down any other defensive Spike setters (not named faster Taunt Skarmory). To sum it up, as a wall Skarmory doesn't have any risks involved or annoying downsides. (I wish its bulk was even better, though)


Forretress: I have already spoken about him many times before and all these points remain relevant. Forcing your opponent to pick your poison, having access to momentum grabbing Volt Switch, being able to setup up all three types of hazards, (obviously, not all on the same set) excellent typing, usable recovery and now a excellent suicide lead with Custap berry makes it a very versatile and effective choice. It's also not completely useless in the spinning department as all the Spin Blockers that aren't crippled by Toxic are easy Spikes fodder. (plus, more and more Tina-O and Ghostceus are opting for EQ/Focus Blast over HP Fire/Fire Blast)

I also want to talk about another member of the B rank, except this one I feel deserves to drop down to C rank.

Lugia: Contrary to Skarmory, this is the wall with the raw stats but all the worst flaws. Its typing is horrible giving it plenty of common weaknesses as well as lacking in key resistances (outside of Groud immunity). This already undermines its natural bulk but things only get worse for the "great wall" as you notice how horribly vulnerable it is to the 4 Ss. (Spikes, Spin, Stealth Rock and Status) With its horrible offenses and shallow movepool there is nothing Lugia can do to prevent Forretress/Skarmory/Ferrothorn/Deoxys from coming in and start laying more layers of Spikes. (besides Whirlwind spam or sun Weather Balls) This lack of offensive presence also means that any Rapid Spin user can come in and rob it of its only way to deal significant damage thus forcing it out. Switching to a ghost type wouldn't be so much a problem if it wasn't for that crippling Stealth Rock weakness that Lugia suffers from. This SR weakness also further undermines the bulk brought by Lugia's raw stats and leaves it incapable of safely switching in to wall multiple important threats. Granted, once Lugia is in it'll take more than brute force to force it back out, too bad it is vulnerable to status like Toxic or Paralysis that prevent it from continued walling. Yes, the raw bulk, immunity to Spikes/T Spikes and access to excellent defensive abilities gives Lugiass some use in the Ubers tier its generally inflexibility and overall risk makes it nothing more than a niche choice.

[jackm]

I definitely agree on both of the spikers. Skarmory in particular gets way less credit than is due. In addition to its ability to Spike and prevent the opponent from doing so, its sheer ability to take on so many threats definitely gives it a place in A. Forretress deserves it too, although it'd be nice if it got an extra slot for recovery. Getting a spin off can be tough in today's metagame, but oh well. It's worth it. As for Lugia, I'm torn; while it can't really do anything and gets hazards and spins set up on it like crazy, it's really quite good at stopping miscellaneous sweeps before they ruin your team. I almost feel like it should be in limbo between the two. It is dependent on its niche to earn its spot on a team (C) but it does have one set which, from experience, is pretty good at doing what it does (subroost+whirlwind+toxic/dtail) which is stopping sweeps from the likes of RP groudon, Blaziken without sun, and Excadrill. Obviously it's massive bait for being set up on, (not to mention a massive momentum killer) but it functions as a sort of safety net against a lot of threats that some teams would otherwise get set up on by.

[EDIT] Eh, that's true. C looks like the right place.

[Melee Mewtwo]

There are better walls to handle those threats (stuff like Tina-A or Skarm, lol) and many others that leave Lugiass as generally outclassed as a wall. On top of that, all those sweepers you listed aren't horribly hazards weak which means they can easily switch out whereas Lugiass can't thus forcing it to roost off the SR damage (otherwise that LO Stone Edge will KO after the second round of SR) which gives the offensive player a free turn to bring in a new sweeper or hazards setter. It has its niche for walling some threats and a few other things but its a generally poor team choice (there are quite a few C rank threats I would rather have on my team than a Lugiasss) which is what this Viability Thread is supposed to be reflecting.

Oh, can we please add Hippowdon in B rank? It's not even on the list.

[bobbyvaporeon]

Ok, here's a write up for Dialga.
Dialga, while slightly outclassed offensively by Palkia, is dangerous because you have no idea what set it is running. From Specs, Band, Scarf, Bulk Up, or defensive, dialga is one of the most versatile pokemon in the ubers metagame. Add having the best offensive typing combined with the best defensive typing, an you have one monster on your hands.
However, there are issues. Without a Scarf, Dialga is slow, and can easily be revenge killed by threats such as Mewtwo and Excadrill. As well as that, Palkia has a much better secondary typing for attacking, as well as a better move pool, leaving the timelord somewhat outclassed. That aside, Dialga is a dangerous threat in Ubers, and one you should always look out for.

[Hack He Must]

No, it does not have "the best offensive typing." Emphasis on Stealth Rock is nice, since Dialga can set them with ease since it's hard to OHKO when running the specially defensive set (max hp, 200 spec d).

Comparing Palkia to Dialga isn't really that good either, they are very different in playstyle as Dialga is usually more support oriented. Mentioning Band Dialga is going to give new players a false view on what's viable in the metagame. Mention more about what moves it commonly runs too.

[Donkey]

Originally Posted by Fat bobbyvaporeon

Ok, here's a write up for Dialga.
Dialga, while slightly outclassed offensively by Palkia, is dangerous because you have no idea what set it is running. From Specs, Band, Scarf, Bulk Up, or defensive, dialga is one of the most versatile pokemon in the ubers metagame. Add having the best offensive typing combined with the best defensive typing, an you have one monster on your hands.
However, there are issues. Without a Scarf, Dialga is slow, and can easily be revenge killed by threats such as Mewtwo and Excadrill. As well as that, Palkia has a much better secondary typing for attacking, as well as a better move pool, leaving the timelord somewhat outclassed. That aside, Dialga is a dangerous threat in Ubers, and one you should always look out for.

lol

[bobbyvaporeon]

Ok, first of all, I said he had the best offensive typing (dragon) combined with the best defensive typing (steel). Also, I did say that Dialga can run more than just te standard defensive set. I will edit it to put in good moves an such, but I feel that your criticism was a little harsh.

[blitzlefan]

Originally Posted by Fat bobbyvaporeon

Ok, here's a write up for Dialga.
Dialga, while slightly outclassed offensively by Palkia, is dangerous because you have no idea what set it is running. From Specs, Band, Scarf, Bulk Up, or defensive, dialga is one of the most versatile pokemon in the ubers metagame. Add having the best offensive typing combined with the best defensive typing, an you have one monster on your hands.
However, there are issues. Without a Scarf, Dialga is slow, and can easily be revenge killed by threats such as Mewtwo and Excadrill. As well as that, Palkia has a much better secondary typing for attacking, as well as a better move pool, leaving the timelord somewhat outclassed. That aside, Dialga is a dangerous threat in Ubers, and one you should always look out for.

This seems repetitive. You mentioned it being outclassed by Palkia twice even though they have basically different roles. Dialga never runs a Choice Band set, and the stuff about its typing is vague and doesn't particularly help.Veraatility matters, but you didn't mention its movepool like Stealth Rock and Fire Blast, Roar, etc. Lastly, you didn't mention its bulk nor its neutrality to Dragon.

[Butterfly Aizen]

Originally Posted by Fat bobbyvaporeon

Ok, here's a write up for Dialga.
Dialga, while slightly outclassed offensively by Palkia, is dangerous because you have no idea what set it is running. From Specs, Band, Scarf, Bulk Up, or defensive, dialga is one of the most versatile pokemon in the ubers metagame. Add having the best offensive typing combined with the best defensive typing, an you have one monster on your hands.
However, there are issues. Without a Scarf, Dialga is slow, and can easily be revenge killed by threats such as Mewtwo and Excadrill. As well as that, Palkia has a much better secondary typing for attacking, as well as a better move pool, leaving the timelord somewhat outclassed. That aside, Dialga is a dangerous threat in Ubers, and one you should always look out for.

ctrl f > Smeargle > 0 hits

[Anikrahman1995]

I think it needs a mention about Smeargle since Dialga is the best SmashPass receiver.

[puregenius]

Dialga

Dialga's most defining trait is arguably his versatility. His wide range of offensive and support moves are complemented by his fantastic Dragon/Steel typing, which lets Dialga remain neutral to Dragon hits while retaining a Dragon STAB. Regardless of the set, key resistances to Grass, Water, Electric, Normal, Bug, an immunity to poison and a neutrality to Dragon is always useful. His typing allows it to check key threats in Kyogre, Genesect and most Dragon. As a utility mon, he can provide Stealth Rocks for a team, as well as paralysis support and phazing. Even with minimal investment, he can ohko many Dragons in the tier while surviving a hit himself. Draco Meteor and Fire Blast proved ample coverage and can deal heavy damage to most of the tier. Even Blissey/Chansey cannot switch in due to Dragon Tail, which will shave off a decent portion of their health, nor can they stall him out due to his immunity to Toxic. Dialga's Choice Scarf set is equally viable and dangerous. A decent base 90 speed and 150 special attack allows him to revenge kill many threats. He is also one of the few Pokemon that is able to revenge kill Extreme Killer Arceus thanks to his secondary Steel typing. It is this Normal resistance that makes Dialga a common Shell Smash receiver, making him much harder to revenge kill with priority (e.g. Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, Shadow Sneak). While less common, his Choice Specs, Wallbreaker and Bulk Up set are all equally dangerous in the right hands. Dialga's other key moves include Thunder, Aura Sphere, Dragon Pulse and Outrage.

Despite Dialga's many positive qualities, he is not without flaws. While Steel brings many resistances to the table, it also brings annoying Ground and Fighting weaknesses, which provides him an unfavourable matchup against Groudon, Terrakion and Landorus-T. While base 90 speed isn't terrible, Dialga risks many speed ties. A lack of recovery also hurts in the support department especially with Spike stack as a common strategy.

Overall Dialga is a solid mon fit for A rank and is a strong contender for your team slot.

Edit: probably too long but there's a reason he's mr versatile lol