The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups)

[moonbase]

I would like to propose sableye for C rank, because it with prankster, can be used as an extremely good check to extremekiller because of prankster will o wisp and proceed to spam foul play to kill it, it can check any sort of physically offensive set up sweeper as a matter of fact for the same reasons as extremekiller. Frankly this little guy can check almost any physically offensive mon bar ho oh and CB kyurem Black. Just don't switch into them.
It can check any sort of hazard setter because of its ability as it can taunt deo S, ferrothorn, forry ect with and with those mons said not being able to do ANYTHING back.

It actually has another niche in being able to out stall Lugia on any given day

PS: Genesect is not such a pain in the ass anymore either.

This little guy's only weakness is absolute brute force special attacks, because of the shit defenses this guy has. And any ho Ho Oh it meets on the street robs it of its lunch money.

Someone please respond to this, and don't discount my point on this little guy just because of my post count.

[jackm]

I second this. Sableye is an excellent spinblocker, being able to switch into Excadrill and Forretress and shut down both of them with ease. It completely neuters the majority of Uber hazard setters, sleep talkers, and physical setup sweepers, while efficiently anti-leading against Darkrai and slowing down special setup sweepers. You actually can switch into surprisingly powerful physical Pokes like CB Tyranitar and burn them, which allows you to recover through their newly weakened attacks and then hit them hard with Foul Play.

[EDIT] I would argue for higher as well but considering Sableye's atrocious special bulk it doesn't seem justified.

[Melee Mewtwo]

I agree that Sableye should be added to the list somewhere. C tier sounds like a fair place to start. (I want to argue for higher but I'm pretty biased towards this guy)

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

Also Sun Blue Fire is literally the only reason to use Reshiram (except for Flame Charge I guess but who the hell uses that). If you're trying to use it anywhere but a Sun team you are far better serviced by Kyurem-W or Rayquaza.

(Going to respond to this since I think it was directed at me :P) I do agree that the best reason to use Reshiram is to abuse sun boosted Blue Flare, whoever it's not weather dependent that you can't excuse it's use elsewhere. It would only really be in niche circumstances (Roasting Ferro under rain/ reliable STAB under Sun/ punished less for predicting a Steel switch-in) but it was just a point brought up to show that although it should only be seriously considered on a Sun team, it isn't completely dependent on Sun to be threatening.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Yea Arceus-Ghost and Arceus-Steel are strong win conditions in Ubers, probably moreso than Arceus-Normal. I'd strongly consider those two for S-tier.

Echoing the desire to see Ghost move up a tier. Arceus-Steel, though, is comfortable where he is. His typing makes him an amazing Stall breaker but his STAB makes him unexceptional when facing offensive teams.

[Tobes]

Ghostceus has been moved up to S Rank, and Fightceus to A Rank.

[Squidsauce]

Big question: Why is gliscor B rank?

I don't see it's niche in the ubers metagame. Could someone explain?

[jackm]

Gliscor runs a wicked stalling set with Toxic/Protect/Substitute/Earthquake; as soon as something is poisoned, scor can alternate between Protect and Substitute without losing HP, allowing infuriating stalls of up to 32 turns to occur uninterrupted.

[Squidsauce]

Originally Posted by Fat jackm

Gliscor runs a wicked stalling set with Toxic/Protect/Substitute/Earthquake; as soon as something is poisoned, scor can alternate between Protect and Substitute without losing HP, allowing infuriating stalls of up to 32 turns to occur uninterrupted.

oh I guess that makes some sense cause t-spikes is prevalent. but isn't it literally a deadweight otherwise? can't wall shit... seems to me like C at best

[jackm]

oh I guess that makes some sense cause t-spikes is prevalent

Toxic Spikes are pretty rare, actually; it's simply Gliscor's Toxic that does the poisoning. Gliscor's fair defenses (remember, this is an OU wall we're talking about) and its immunities to Ground and Electric mean that it can switch in on quite a lot of stuff and get a free turn. This, in conjunction with its convenient 95 base speed, means that Gliscor will be able to take down a surprising number of foes. So no, it's not dead weight otherwise; that's like saying that Rayquaza is dead weight because it isn't an efficient wall. Gliscor's role in Ubers is simply different from that which it inhabits in OU.

[blitzlefan]

I'd like to propose Zekrom for A-rank! Zekrom does a phenomenal job at revenge-killing and wallbreaking, with its ridiculous base 150 Attack and complementary STABs. Also, Zekrom is one of the few physically-based Dragons in the tier, and therefore give it niche in defeating specially-defensive 'mons like Latias and Kyogre. Furthermore, Teravolt allows it to murder Lugia (through Multiscale), resulting in a heavy damage output, and an unboosted 252 Atk Bolt Strike has a 75% chance to OHKO Great Wall Lugia after Stealth Rock. Zekrom also checks Ho-oh very well, resisting both STABs and threatening an OHKO with Bolt Strike. Zekrom also murders boosting Calm Mind users, especially Lati@s, which can open the way for a Kyogre/Palkia sweep.

Personally, I use Scarf Zekrom with HUGE benefits, especially as a late game cleaner alongside Extreme Killer Arceus. I love this guy. :) Anybody agree with me on this one?

[Melee Mewtwo]

Zekrom is a solid Pokemon and a strong wall breaker however he suffers from a lackluster movepool along with being sluggish and weak to many common attacking types. It just doesn't have the same level of wallbreaking power as the rest of A rank. (and Tailwind isn't enough to call it a sweeper) He's a solid B rank mon.

[Squidsauce]

Agree with above^.

On another note, why is kabutops rank B? On the same tier with lugia and zekrom??

[Aquasition]

Originally Posted by Fat Squidsauce

Agree with above^.

On another note, why is kabutops rank B? On the same tier with lugia and zekrom??

He's a good sweeper under rain via swift swim. He hits particularly hard with his waterfall and stone edges,as well as low kick/superpower. He can also rapid spin if he wanted to. Or use swords dance on a switch in and start hitting like a bazooka.

However, he's frail. Extremely frail. Rayquaza can cut his rampage short due to air lock. Great Wall Gira-A also stops him in his tracks.

[Sweep]

I would like to propose Liepard for D Rank. Liepard serves as a decent anti-lead, preventing mons like Deoxys-S, Forretress, and Dialga from setting up entry hazards on it with priority taunt. It can also paralyze lead scarfers like Genesect before they have a chance to move. Liepard has terrible defenses, so it really needs a Focus Sash to function as it needs multiple turns to set up.

Here is the moveset I use for Liepard on my haxy rain team:

Liepard (Focus Sash)
252 HP, 4 Defense, 252 Special Defense (0 attack IV's)
Careful Nature

-Thunder Wave
-Taunt
-Swagger
-Foul Play

Thunder Wave is to spread paralysis. Scarfers, Lugia, Lati@s lacking refresh, and most Arceus forms hate paralysis. Taunt is to stop set-up sweepers like Calm Mind Mewtwo and Dragon Dance Rayquaza dead in their tracks, as well as stop entry hazard setters. Swagger causes confusion while raising the opponent's attack by two stages, so if you can hax your opponent, they will likely hit themselves hard unless you are facing something like Tentacruel or Chansey. Finally, Foul Play can take advantage of Swagger and hit fellow Ubers extremely hard. Bear in mind that even uninvested Liepard runs fairly fast (248 speed), so Foul Play will outrun and strike stuff like standard Giratina-A hard.

Other viable moves include Trick, which helps Liepard perform against stall teams she otherwise detests, Toxic to bother Chansey and Blissey, and Substitute to protect Liepard while the opponent is confused. Substitute is only viable on trick sets since Focus Sash Liepard has no need for it. Even then, Liepard has a severe case of the 4 moveslot syndrome so I do not recommend it.

Here are some examples of what Liepard can do:

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers9330288
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers9343940

Oh yeah: Liepard also crews over Baton Pass teams with Priority Taunt+Thunder Wave. If you see Anik's new BP team or Buu Huu's BP team, you will be thrilled to have taunted Ninjask as it has no attack moves.

I am talking up Liepard quite a bit, but I would never use it on a serious competitive team. For one, it struggles against stall teams (especially sand stall teams that destroy its Focus Sash) because the likes of Chansey and physically defensive Arceus Water do not care that much about Swagger. It is also fairly predictable once you know the set, so lead entry hazard setters like Groudon and Dialga can directly attack it knowing Liepard will usually lead with Taunt. Finally, even with maximum defensive investment it will get 2HKO'ed by almost every pokemon in Ubers. It can only survive two hits from weak moves such as Tentacruel's Scald. It also hates extremekiller, because extremespeed has priority over Prankster. Swaggering it could also backfire Therefore, having something that can takes extremekiller (such as physically defensive Arceus Fighting or Giratina-A) to pair with Liepard is highly recommended. Overall, Liepard is far too luck based to be considered a good or even average pokemon in Ubers play, and is outclassed by Thundurus in almost every way. However, it can perform extremely well if you can get a few breaks. I would almost recommend average to slightly below average players to use this thing, as it can level the playing field against better players. Still, you are playing 6 on 5 in games where Liepard loses the prediction game and/or fails to get hax. I think it's good enough to warrant a placing in"D" tier though; it is certainly better than Shedinja or Charizard!

[Sweep]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Blaziken: This should be moved to A rank. Yes it requires Sun support but needing a bit of support is mentioned in the definition of an A rank Pokemon. It's ability to OHKO 4/0 Giratina-O after Stealth Rock damage with a +2 Flare Blitz should speak enough about its ability to sweep significant portions of the metagame. It also has the advantage of being impossible to revenge kill with your traditional Choice Scarfer forcing you to rely on ESpeed and other forms of priority to bring it down.

Being walled to hell and back by physically defensive Giratina-A really hampers its effectiveness in ubers. It also dies to EKiller after taking approximately 30-35% damage. Blaziken is very good, especially ones that run Low Kick (Hi Jump Kick isn't worth it when Low Kick hits most mons for 100-120 damage anyway) but I consider it to be "B" tier because of its low defenses and the fact that full-health Giratina-A is a counter.

Forretress: This thing is like one of the best support mon in Ubers and should be moved to A rank. Being able to set up Spikes and spin them away at the same time is really useful. Being able to do it in the face of the multitude of Outrage spammers and the infamous Ferrothorn should speak mountains on his amazing ability to support a team. Sure that low SpDef makes it a bit hard to do its job but that steel typing and Sturdy makes sure it does it more often than not.

Its ability to provide entry hazards, spin them away, and Toxic spinblockers makes it "A" list material. A shame that it is pretty hard to spin in Ubers, with the Giratina formes being so tough to take down. I can agree on "A" though.

Kabutops: Again, put this thing up in A rank. This thing is a very deadly sweeper as at +2 you better still have a physical Giratina-A or a Groudon or you are in big trouble. (Checks like SpDef Tina and Grassceus are normally weakened after having to tank Water Spouts from Kyogre) Revenge killing it is also difficult due to SS and normal resist leaving only ScarfTerrakion and Rayquaza who can accomplish this. It is also an excellent Rapid Spinner that can still clean up teams while being quite difficult to spin block.

Calcs

---

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Ghost in rain: 220-259 (49.54 - 58.33%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Giratina: 183-216 (36.38 - 42.94%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(This is your SpecsOgre switch-in and he only has Rest for recovery)

252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 136-161 (27.03 - 32%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock

Agreed with Kabutops being moved up to "A" rank. It devastates rain teams late game with Low Kick and Stone Edge, and its ability to outrun scarfed dragons not named Rayquaza is really cool. It has issues with sun teams because Groudon walls it, but Groudon is easier to remove than Giratina-A in my experience. That's why I consider to be Kabutops to be "A" tier and Blaziken "B" tier. That, and the fact that Kabutops can spin or runa deadly choice band set.

Terrakion: Move to A rank please. He is one of the best Scarfmons in Ubers as he is capable of revenge killing Ekiller, Kabutops, and various others thanks to its excellent STABs. It can also clean teams nicely with those powerful STABs
if the OP makes the mistake of hitting it with a Dark type attack. (looking at you Darkrai)

Though it loses to Jolly Kabutops and Choice Band tops carrying Aqua Jet, I agree with this. Sleep Talk is a cool option if you really hate Darkrai, since Terrakion isn't exactly brimming with quality moves. Definitely "A" rank because it hits hard and counters EK so long it doesn't switch into earthquake.

Bisharp: Move this to at least B rank for now. STAB Sucker Punch is very good to have in Ubers especially when it's backed by a solid 125 base attack. Setting up the SD to clean a team is pretty easy thanks to that steel typing. That low Sucker Punch PP sucks, thus forcing some prediction games, but that doesn't mean it should be any lower than B rank.

This is awesome...at LEAST B tier. It can easily come in on a number of scarfed dragon or ice moves and set up a swords dance. Once it gets said swords dance, hyper offensive teams will get seriously hurt by this. Low Kick hits stuff like Ferrothorn and Dialga extremely hard. Blackglasses or Lum Berry are the preferred items, though I prefer Blackglasses because it doesn't care that much about paralysis (OK, it cares a little). Night slash helps it wound stuff like Giratina or Lugia that try to phaze it. With Stleath Rock support, Bisharp is awesome.

Froslass: At least to B rank please. The only downside to its supporting role is that it can't set up SR on top of Spikes. Taunt makes sure nothing is setting up on it, Shadow Ball keeps Magic Bouncers at bay, Icy Wind lets it beat other hazard leads like Deoxys, and Ghost typing makes sure any spinner doesn't troll it while it tries to set up.

It has Destony Bond as well. Very cool pokemon that is hard to prevent from doing its job. Scarfers can prevent it from getting up more than one layer of spikes though...then again, forcing your opponent to reveal their scarfer early on in the game isn't such a bad thing. I agree with B tier.

Mamoswine: This thing is an amazing wall breaker in the Ubers tier. It pretty much 2HKOs the entire tier and that STAB 130 Ice Shard is never bad in such a dragon populated tier.

I tried it on a Hail team and was unimpressed. It has mediocre defensive typing and base 80 speed haunts it. It hits extremely hard with Life Orb and a priority move is always good, but I would consider it "C" material. It doesn't suck, but I wouldn't use it again.

Manaphy: Yeah, move it up to B rank please. Honestly, C rank is for niche stuff like Heracross and Manaphy is a solid CM/Tail Glow sweeper. It has its flaws but at the same time it has some very annoying advantages (Immune to status makes it very annoying for Stall).

Bulky Calm Mind Manaphy with defensive EV's is an awesome stallbreaker that even offensive teams will have some trouble taking down. Tail Glow, however, is too weak with 100/100/100 defenses and 100 speed to use effectively because it gets hit for OHKO's or 2HKO's by most offensive Ubers pokemon, making rest+hydration obsolete. I consider the Calm Mind set to be borderline B-C level; Tail Glow has never given me trouble.

Omastar: Please to B rank. Its kinda like Kabutops although a tad bit less threatening. However, once it does get that Shell Smash you better pray for a Hydro Pump miss as there isn't much else you can do about this guy. Most of its counters are the typical switch-ins to Kyogre so getting a bit of previous damage on them isn't very difficult. The trick is getting the Shell Smash up but it has a very nice defensive stat and it is threatening enough to force switch-ins.

B or C. This can destroy Sun teams, but struggles against rain teams with Palkia (which it cannot OHKO even after one layer of hazards and a Shell Smash), opposing Kyogre, Ferrothorn and non-EKiller priority. Still, it counters Ho-Oh lacking Earthquake and unlike Kabutops, can hit Groudon extremely hard on the switch. It also revenges powerful mons like Mewtwo, Darkrai, and many Arceus forms, including EKiller. Focus Sash with Spin support is great for late game sweeping; Life Orb is better for revenge-killing and hitting more ridiculous damage if you get a smash. I would lean B, but C is fine since Kabutops is better.

Reshiram: Wait, what? Why is this in C rank? I know it has an SR weakness and all but Fire/Dragon STABs on top of a nuclear Bue Flare under sun should be enough to at least put it in B rank.

Agreed, Specs Blue Flare destroys almost everything, and sub/stone edge/STAB/STAB is highly underrated. It is Sun reliant, buts hits hard enough to be considered "B" tier.

[MeteorMiss]

Originally Posted by Fat Tobes

If a player can't recognize Pokemon by their sprites then this list isn't going to be much help to them anyway. It is not intended for people brand new to the game; it's for players who know the basics of Pokemon and want to get into this metagame.

The lack of labels also makes the page unsearchable, as if a player wants to find a given Pokemon he can only do so by squinting his eyes as he goes down.

What's the big deal about labeling the icons? It seems like it would do more good than harm.

[Tobes]

Ah, I hadn't considered CTRL + F. That's a very valid point. I'll edit in the names later.

[Sweep]

Originally Posted by Fat moonbase

I would like to propose sableye for C rank, because it with prankster, can be used as an extremely good check to extremekiller because of prankster will o wisp and proceed to spam foul play to kill it, it can check any sort of physically offensive set up sweeper as a matter of fact for the same reasons as extremekiller. Frankly this little guy can check almost any physically offensive mon bar ho oh and CB kyurem Black. Just don't switch into them.
It can check any sort of hazard setter because of its ability as it can taunt deo S, ferrothorn, forry ect with and with those mons said not being able to do ANYTHING back.

It actually has another niche in being able to out stall Lugia on any given day

PS: Genesect is not such a pain in the ass anymore either.

This little guy's only weakness is absolute brute force special attacks, because of the shit defenses this guy has. And any ho Ho Oh it meets on the street robs it of its lunch money.

Someone please respond to this, and don't discount my point on this little guy just because of my post count.

Good post; I agree 100%. Sableye will almost always beat EKiller, even if it has to switch in on it (so long Arceus has not already set up the turn you switch Sableye into it). Crippling Genesect right off the bat is cool, and Priority recover is an awesome asset to have to stall out physical attackers. Its access to Foul Play allows it to hit mons for decent damage, even Ho-Oh on the switch. Sableye can the switch out to an appropriate Ho-Oh check, like Zekrom while Ho-Oh roosts off the damage.

Its weakness is devastating though, especially since not many Sableye will invest in Special Defense, putting all of their EV's in Health and Defense. Special attackers generally don't care that much about Will-O-Wisp either. Finally, if it does choose to Will-O-Wisp something like Arceus-Electric, it could have a Calm Mind set up right in its face. Therefore, it is better to switch out (if you can afford to) or Taunt a special attacker. Sableye is legitimate "C" material.

One last note about Sableye: Dark/Ghost is awesome because it has no weaknesses to exploit barring Foresight. And if your opponent is running Foresight, you should be OK.

[Tobes]

I've seen it twice now on the same page so I really need to correct this: Zekrom is not an "appropriate" Ho-Oh check. Even if it does resist Ho-Oh's STABs, people seem to be forgetting that switching a physical attacker into Sacred Fire is a horrible, horrible idea. Sure, maybe a burned Zekrom could still force Ho-Oh out, but it's probably not going to be doing much else for the rest of the match afterward. If you can get it in on Brave Bird then more power to you, but it is by no means a safe switch-in.

[Enguarde]

Originally Posted by Fat Sweep

Good post; I agree 100%. Sableye will almost always beat EKiller, even if it has to switch in on it (so long Arceus has not already set up the turn you switch Sableye into it). Crippling Genesect right off the bat is cool, and Priority recover is an awesome asset to have to stall out physical attackers. Its access to Foul Play allows it to hit mons for decent damage, even Ho-Oh on the switch. Sableye can the switch out to an appropriate Ho-Oh check, like Zekrom while Ho-Oh roosts off the damage.

Its weakness is devastating though, especially since not many Sableye will invest in Special Defense, putting all of their EV's in Health and Defense. Special attackers generally don't care that much about Will-O-Wisp either. Finally, if it does choose to Will-O-Wisp something like Arceus-Electric, it could have a Calm Mind set up right in its face. Therefore, it is better to switch out (if you can afford to) or Taunt a special attacker. Sableye is legitimate "C" material.

One last note about Sableye: Dark/Ghost is awesome because it has no weaknesses to exploit barring Foresight. And if your opponent is running Foresight, you should be OK.

While I good agree that Sableye does have some excellent traits which no other potentially viable Pokemon can do in the Ubers tier. I still think C rank is too high for this Pokemon.

There is lots of talk about Sableye being able to severely cripple and possibly outstall even some of the mightiest physical attackers in the tier which can be true IF Will-O-Wisp hits. And this is also taking into account that Sableye is going to be most likely Ko'd on the switch in to primarily physical attackers especially after Stealth Rock.

50/75/65 defences are never going to be solid defensive stats, very rarely is it going to be able to switch into any attacks in the tier. And again, if Wilo-O-Wisp misses, Sableye might as well be as useless at stopping Physical attackers as it is at taking special attacks. And taunting Calm Mind users will likely just result in Sabelye's death since even an attack from say Arceus-Ghost will put Sabeleye will render it somewhat unusable as its priority recover will not be gaining it anywhere near the amount of HP back. Not to mention Wallbreakers such as Mix Rayquaza or Zekrom will even minimal Spa investment aren't going to stopped from destroying Sableye from the special side.

Calcs:

...

---

• 4 SpA Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment (Ghost) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 216-255 (71.05 - 83.88%)
  
• 0 SpA Life Orb Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 398-468 (130.92 - 153.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO
  
• 0 SpA Life Orb Zekrom Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 325-383 (106.9 - 125.98%) -- guaranteed OHKO

This being said I do believe Sableye does have a good niche in Ubers with its ability to reliable stop supporters like Deoxys-S, Forretress, Ferrothorn, some Lugia barring it doesn't end up Toxic'd on the switch. And as unreliable Will-O-Wisp can be, it does make your opponent think twice before using they're physical attacker against it. So I'd support Sableye for D rank rather than C.

[jackm]

Let's look at the definitions of the tiers:

C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support.

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who are simply not very effective in the current metagame.

Sableye does not fit into D rank. It isn't "not very effective in the current metagame". As many have stated previously, Sableye is an efficient annoyer and check to many physical threats; it supports both stall and offense teams with its unique combination of typing, (good enough) bulk, movepool, and effective speed. It is in the group of Pokemon who "perform specific niches and can be effective given the right support, but either are incapable of performing well outside of that niche or are heavily dependent on that support." Sableye does indeed effectively perform a specific niche. Its ability to repeatedly check and cripple Extremekiller Arceus is practically unparallelled; while both Skarmory and Giratina can check it fairly well, Skarmory lacks the ability to do anything but force it out and Giratina falls to boosted Ghost-type attacks with residual damage. You mention that it lacks the ability to take special attacks from the tier, as well as the fact that Will-O-Wisp is unreliable. While I wholeheartedly agree that these flaws are apparent, I encourage you to take a look at some of the other members of C.

...

---

• (Arceus-Electric)
• (Arceus-Fire)
• (Arceus-Flying)
• (Arceus-Ice)
• (Arceus-Poison)
• (Bisharp)
• (Blissey)
• (Cloyster)
• (Deoxys-D)
• (Ditto)
• (Froslass)
• (Gorebyss)
• (Heatran)
• (Hydreigon)
• (Jynx)
• (Kyurem-B)
• (Ludicolo)
• (Mamoswine)
• (Manaphy)
• (Metagross)
• (Omastar)
• (Qwilfish)
• (Reshiram)
• (Salamence)
• (Scizor)
• (Shiftry)
• (Smeargle)
• (Thundurus)
• (Thundurus-T)
• (Tornadus)
• (Tornadus-T)
• (Victini)
• (Wobbuffet)
• (Xatu)

All of these Pokemon have either crippling flaws or are generally outclassed. They all require significant support to function at their best, but they have a place in the tier as a threat. They all impose a significant risk on the teambuilder, a risk that if used in the wrong situation (or even if the odds aren't "ever in their favor") they can become liabilities. Sableye fits quite well into this group; while it is quite effective at what it does, it can become a liability against almost every special attacker in the tier, allowing for a turn of setup due to its inherent weakness against such pokes.

[Sweep]

I strongly agree with the vast majority of the placements of pokemon in the "C" and "D" tiers. However, there are two pokemon that I feel should move up a slot.

Arceus Electric from "C" to "B"

I have used a Calm Mind + 3 attack set fairly successfully on a rain team and think this thing is really cool. Its defensive typing is disappointing, grants it no immunities and resistances to only Steel and Electric type attacks. Because of this, I used Electriceus as a hole-puncher instead of a sweeper. It isn't the best Arceus form around, but the combination of Thunder (Judgment if sun teams scare you), Ice Beam, and Fire Blast punch significant holes in teams via super-effective coverage. It can live an Earthquake from Support Groudon and hit Offensive Groudon extremely hard with Ice Beam, and does strong damage to Ferrothorn with Fire Blast. Due to a lack of a Stealth Rock weakness, I feel it is demonstratably better than either Arceus-Fire, Arceus-Ice, or Arceus-Flying. It also has better offensive typing than the latter.

Blissey and Chansey wall Arceus-Electric, and Sand teams frustrate it to no end. Since you will almost always be facing Excadrill in Rain or Sand, the drill mole will frustrate Arceus-Electric as well. Thunder's accuracy outside of rain stinks -- for example, you might be tempted to fire off a +1 Thunder at Ho-Oh in sunlight, but this strategy is incrdibly risky -- but the 30% paralysis chance was too tempting for me to pass up when running this.

Some calcs for this thing:

...

---

Thunder vs. Physical Attacking Ho-Oh: 74.5% - 88.1% (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Thunder vs. Physically Defense Lugia (252 HP, 0 Special Defense): 73.6% - 87% (91.7 chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

Ice Beam vs. Physically Defense Support Groudon (252 HP, 252 D): 53% - 62.9% (Guaranteed 2HKO)

+1 Ice Beam vs. Specially Defensive Support Groudon (252 HP, 252 Special D): 61.4% - 72.8% (Guaranteed 2HKO)

Though suspectible to entry hazards (especially Toxic Spikes) and somewhat weak to stall and sand, Electric-Arceus hits too hard too fast to be placed in "C" tier in my opinion.

Espeon from "D" rank to "C" rank

I don't think Espeon and Xatu can be compared to one another because they are completely different pokemon. Of course, they both share Psychic typing and have Magic Bounce, but apart from that, they function differently.

Xatu can wall Support Groudon with a Roost/Toxic/Reflect/Light Screen or Heat Wave set, and can somewhat effectively set up screens. It does its job fairly well too, and its ability prevents it from being Taunt bait.

Unfortunately, Xatu cannot do anything to Steel types unless it carries Heat Wave. It also performs poorly late-game because of its lack of attacking power and preference for Light Clay over Focus Sash. This is where Espeon excels. Yawn allows Espeon to stop a Calm Minder or Dragon Dancer in its tracks, assuming Focus Sash is still intact (not a guarantee). Even if Focus Sash is gone, Espeon's fantastic speed allows it to outrun mons like Lustrous Orb Palkia and HP Fire Latios and threaten them with sleep. Espeon also possesses a good 130 Speial Attack stat. In sunlight, it deals severe damage to the likes of Forretress and Ferrothorn and can OHKO switchin Genesect. Grass Knot hits lead Groudon and most Kyogre hard. Psyshock takes respectable chunks out of most sweepers as well. For offensive players who don't care for Xatu's perks, Espeon is a very competent substitute. I have found it fairly effective at keeping hazards off the field.

Espeon is far from perfect. Skilled players will attack with lead Ferrothorn and Deoxys-S right off the bat, destroying Espeon's Focus Sash. You can attempt to predict over this and attack/set up on them in return, but this is dangerous since Espeon's main job is to keep Stealth Rock off the field to allow Life Orb Ho-Oh and other entry-weak mons to function at maximum capacity. Since most viable spinners (except Tentacruel) dislike sunlight, Espeon is used to keep your side of the field hazard-free. If Espeon fails, your team is in trouble.

Though 130 special attack may seem strong, in reality Espeon doesn't have a great attacking movepool to back this up. Grass Knot and Psyshock are nice, but almost all Espeon run it so your opponent will likely know the majority of your moveset. Another issue with Espeon is that it cannot do much to Tyranitar. Sand Stream removes Focus Sash and Tyranitar can bring switchin Espeon to its knees with Crunch. Hidden Power Fighting might seem like a good way to beat Tyranitar, but in reality Tyranitar's titanic special defense in sand keeps its power in check.

Timid 252 SpA Espeon's HP Fighting vs. 252 HP 216 Special Defense Careful Tyranitar: 38.6% - 45.5% (guaranteed 3HKO)

Overall, Espeon can stop set-up sweepers from going too far with Yawn, keep hazards off the field, and deal adeuqate damage. It has flaws -- especially its weak defensive bulk + typing -- but I believe it offers enough to a team to be considered "C" tier. Leeching off the poster above me, I wouldn't say Espeon is "not very effective" at all. It is a key reason why the main Sun team I use (Kack He Must's team) has had so much success. With good prediction, it can keep hazards off the field for an entire match. If you can do that, Life Orb Ho-Oh can breaks things and freely switch out & heal itself with Regenerator.

I can think of a few Pokemon that I would drop, but feel I have said enough for now.

[Melee Mewtwo]

I've played enough get Espy that I think C rank sounds fair enough. It's a niche mon like Xatu but it has different niches that can actually make it pretty darn annoying as well. I still think Xatu is generally better Espy is a bit more usable than D rank.

My main concern with Electriceus is what is does when Sun comes up? Having a weather reliant Arceus form with difficulty to set up kinda goes against the main advantage of using Arceus; its unparalleled flexibility.

[Hack He Must]

It feels to me like Latios needs to move up to A, where it in my opinion really belongs. Contrary to common belief, Latios is not outclassed by her sister as the fulfill very different roles. The set I will be looking at is the all-out attacker set.

Latios (M) @ Soul Dew
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Grass Knot
- Psyshock

This is generally the best IMO (thunder and surf works on rain teams though). The criteria for A-rank are as follows:

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Now we must ask us, can the all-out attacker set sweep significant portions of the metagame? My answer is due to its amazing speed, this is certainly true. In S+A rank there is nothing I would call a counter to Latios. While this is true for many of the S+A rank as well, this just shows the exact reason why it belongs in that rank. In B-rank, for example, most offensive mons actually have a couple of "hard counters," Blaziken has Giratina, Kingdra has Ferrothorn and so on. Looking at Latios placement in the B-rank, I am a bit confused since the only thing that can claim to really hard counter it is Arceus-Steel in the rain, and too an extent Ferrothorn. How many pokes in S+A rank doesn't Latios 2HKO?

While Latias is indeed better at checking Kyogre, you can't really complain about Latios special defense, which is high thanks to soul dew.

252+ SpA Kyogre Water Spout vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Soul Dew Latios: 92-108 (30.46 - 35.76%) -- 44.53% chance to 3HKO

And why try to counter the uncounterable king of Ubers when you can destroy it with offensive pressure?

The advantage Latios has over A-rank special sweepers like Mewtwo and Palkia, is that it has significantly higher special bulk, about 30 % higher than Palkia according to Superimp's A Defense to Reach the Stars thread (unless I have missed the point about logaritmic scale bases completely).

The other thing it has is an immunity to spikes and toxic spikes+ a neutrality to stealth rocks. This and its typing grants it way more opportunities to switch in that for example Mewtwo or Rayquaza.

Did I mention any standard cores in the metagame? Well, no, but what needs to be said is that they are actually ripped apart. For example; a standard sun-core consisting of support Groudon, leftovers Palkia and Ho-oh (and maybe Forretress as well) falls flat to Latios if SR are up, and even if there are no rocks on the field, Ho-oh will be hard pressed to survive assaults from Latios because of psyshock.

Standard sand core- TTar, Ferrothorn and specially defensive Giratina is another core that has trouble with Latios.

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in sand: 202-238 (50 - 58.91%) -- 71.88% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 308-364 (87.5 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 438-516 (87.07 - 102.58%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO

A layer of spikes up, and this core is put under immense pressure, and will be forced to predict a lot to deal with Latios. Latios, on the other hand can spam Grass Knot on a predicted TTar switch-in, and if Ferrothorn shows up, it will go down. Same for Giratina, meaning Latios will usually take down two members if it is played correctly (which is not that prediction reliant compared to what the sand core will have to pull off).

I also believe speed is very important for a sweeper. While unboosted dragons such as Rayquaza, Kyurem-W and Reshiram are slow, Latios has an advantage in its blistering 110 base speed.

Now of course there are some disadvantages with Latios (some would at least say, I think there are pretty much none). While I do agree it has trouble breaking through steel types in the rain, it's not exactly like we are talking about big threats just coming in and getting a free set-up. Sure Ferrothorn can come in, but your team can most likely handle it. Same goes for Arceus-Steel, who is an amazing stall-breaker, but you can always use Ho-oh together with Latios for amazing offensive synergy.

Latios really deserved A-rank.

[Melee Mewtwo]

The huge drawback to Latios is that it fails to 2HKO Ferrothorn under Rain while he can bite back very hard with Gyro Ball. Jirachi is another counter to Latios even under neutral weather.

252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 255+ SpD Jirachi: 166-196 (41.08 - 48.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn in rain: 152-180 (43.18 - 51.13%) -- 5.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

That said, Latios is a top notch wallbreaker and I think he should be moved to A rank due to a key difference between him and many other wallbreakers like Mewtwo and Kyurem-W. That difference is the amazing Levitate ability. In a metagame where hazards is almost always the deciding factor having an immunity to Spikes and T-Spikes as well as a neutrality to Stealth Rock is an amazing boon when it comes switching out of Revenge Killers and coming back in later. (which is also pretty easy thanks to some key resists and massive special bulk) Latios also doesn't rely on a HP eating Life Orb or an unflexible Choice Specs meaning even less passive damage from attacking and forced retreats. Latios is an powerful wall breaker and one of the most annoying to play around thanks to his natural resistances to passive damage.

[TheDarkMaster]

uh...why the heck is reshiram C rank?