The Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Now Taking Write-Ups) - Page 9

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 4:29:21 AM

Dear god this is perhaps the poorest argument I've seen on smogon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Just because Mandibuzz can wall Ghostceus doesn't make it viably in ubers.
Walling an s rank threat doesn't make it viable? Are u shitting me?
It gets destroyed by common moves like thunder and ice beam and anything with taunt shuts it down.
Oh rly? I was unaware ghostceus carried thunder and ice beam. Lugia and blissey totally don't get shut down by taunt sarcasm
Blissey is also a better special wall. Here are the calcs from the amount of damage it take fron 252+ ghostceus's focus blast.

252SpAtk Spooky Plate +1 Multitype Arceus (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Soundproof Blissey (+SpDef): 33% - 39% (238 - 280 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.
Right because all blissey run max hp and spdef with calm sarcasm

As you can see, Blissey takes a similar amount of damage from a stronger +1 Ghostceus. Mandibuzz has literally no niche that can't be done by other pokemon. Whirlwind can Phaze stuff, but pokemon like groudon are better phazers.
You're right groudon is excellent at phasing ghostceus out! sarcasm
Comparing it to gastron isn't a real reason since gastrodon only has 1 uncommon weakness and can still do better againt pokemon like kyorge and thundorus-T.
Ofc it does better against kyogre that's the pokemon it's supposed to beat and right because thundurus t is everywhere sarcasm
110/105/95 defenses are nothing compared to lugia or arceus dark, and base 65 attack means the mandibuzz lacks offensive presence. Mandibuzz is not viable and has no niche, and it is outclassed by a myraid of pokemon suck as dark arceus and lugia.
Alright here we go. Arceus dark has a very high opportunity cost unlike mandibuzz. Lugia is set up bait against stuff like ferrothorn and forretress. Why even bring up offensive presence when lugia and blissey both have next to none?!? And dear fucking god it has no niche? How the hell is walling ghostceus while providing a variety of other support options not a niche?

Melee Mewtwo · Mar 2nd, 2013, 4:47:56 AM

Mandibuzz is a niche mon and tends to lack the bulk to wall very much of the metagame. However, having access to Taunt is a pretty big boon for a wall as hazards is the dominant factor in Ubers and stopping Ferrothorn from setting up all over your walls is a welcome advantage. It doesn't really pay for this by lacking other moves since it has reliable recovery, status, Foul Play and Phazing. It's really just the base stats that hold it back from being anything more than a niche mon so I think it's fair to put it as a C rank on the list. (along with Sableye who was brought up earlier)

ThisMysteriousGuy · Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:13:59 AM

I've never really used/played against Mandibuzz but it does indeed look like a solid answer to Ghostceus, has a decent enough amount of bulk to tank some other hits, and can break stall with access to Taunt which is always nice.

And on the subject of Gastrodon (a Pokemon I can say is something I've faced):

Quote:

Comparing it to gastron isn't a real reason since gastrodon only has 1 uncommon weakness and can still do better againt pokemon like kyorge and thundorus-T.
Ofc it does better against kyogre that's the pokemon it's supposed to beat and right because thundurus t is everywhere

What the hell

First off Thundurus-T is NOT everywhere

Quote:

| 66 | Thundurus-Therian | 1.02709% | 1151 | 1.388% | 942 | 1.423% |

Secondly Thundurus-T usually beats out Gastrodon cause Grass Knot is generally a more viable option on it than HP Ice is (before you ask why, it's because of Groudon), and if you can imagine, Grass Knot is not something Gastro wants to take:

252 SpAtk Life Orb Thundurus-T Grass Knot vs 252 HP/248 SpDef Gastrodon (+SpDef) : 72.3% - 85.45%
2 hits to KO (with Leftovers)

Gastrodon's really only niche is countering Kyogre (I don't know if it can beat Mono-Attacker though...) and a few Pokemon that unfortunately lack the moves to be able to get around it, like...non SD Kabutops? Gastrodon really only counters Kyogre, that's about it. If Mandibuzz can counter the Pokemon it indeeds to counter (Ghostceus) and be able to accomplish various other tasks, then I see no reason for it not to be added (Not suggesting a tier because, again, I've never really used Mandibuzz)

lousy918 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:32:29 AM

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:42:33 AM

Oh my god
I really didn't think this was necessary, but I have marked all sarcastic posts

Magcargo 2 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:24:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat GG Unit

If you bring in Blissey/Chansey on an Arceus-Ghost that has Substitute, you might as well forfeit, so yeah, Mandibuzz does have a niche due to being able to taunt or phaze.

Ghostceus almost never runs substitute anyways. Also, almost everything in ubers has the ability to phaze. Taunt is simply not enough to allow Mandibuzz to be viable and JUST BECUASE MANDIBUZZ CAN WALL GHOSTCEUS DOESN'T MAKE IT VIABLE. I suppose shedninja is viable for being able to wall kyogre. Outside of walling ghostceus, mandibuzz is useless. Mandibuzz cannot acomplish other task because of common weakness's. While it does have a unique combination of taunt, whirlwind and roost, Mandibizz's SR weakness, vulnerability to taunt and weakness to common attacking types rarely make it work it. Also, how does arceus_dark have an oppurtunity cause?

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 11:47:31 AM

Alright here we go again

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Ghostceus almost never runs substitute anyways. Also, almost everything in ubers has the ability to phaze. Taunt is simply not enough to allow Mandibuzz to be viable and JUST BECUASE MANDIBUZZ CAN WALL GHOSTCEUS DOESN'T MAKE IT VIABLE.
Yeh it does actually
I suppose shedninja is viable for being able to wall kyogre.
Shedninja is unreliable unlike mandibuzz. Any hazard, status or weather kills it. Mandibuzz can take hazards, status and is unaffected by weather and still stop ghostceus. This is just a stupid comparison (not that I would expect more from you)
Outside of walling ghostceus, mandibuzz is useless.
This statement is completely wrong. I couldnt be bothered writing this all out before, but ur just gonna keep bringing this up if i dont. Darkrai is another dangerous threat mandibuzz can beat. Almost every single cm arceus can be stopped by mandibuzz. +1 ice beam/thunderbolt only does around 40-50%. Mandibuzz can easily switch in on the cm and whirlwind the arceus out or roost off the damage. This ecompasses grass, ground, fighting and bug. Poison, dark, flying and dragon do approximately the same, but slightly lower damage. Without rocks, it is a cakewalk. With rocks the situation is still manageable. Deoxys a is another offensive threat that mandibuzz can easily stop. Superpower only does approximately a third, even with only 8 def Evs on mandibuzz. What about gene? Do you consider him another arbitrary threat? Max atk u turn only does 24-29%, while ice beam does 28-33%.
Mandibuzz cannot acomplish other task because of common weakness's.
wrong see above
While it does have a unique combination of taunt, whirlwind and roost, Mandibizz's SR weakness, vulnerability to taunt
And other walls aren't?!?!? Also consider how many taunt users there are in this tier. Deo s, heatran, thundurus, torn t, mewtwo. Now consider how deo s is often a suicide lead and how common the other ones are.
and weakness to common attacking types rarely make it work it. Also, how does arceus_dark have an oppurtunity cause?
By using arceus dark, u forfeit the ability to use another arceus form

I forgot to mention mandibuzz also gets knock off to mess with teams

Magcargo 2 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 12:11:50 PM

Just because mandibuzz can counter one poke suddenly makes it viable? Also, mandibuzz is weak to SR (thanks for calling me stupid). Darkrai can dark void mandibuzz and put it to sleep, then set up on mandibuzz and lugia can also whirlwind and take all of those hits hits better than mandibuzz. Other walls, have a move you've never heard of called dragon tail so they aren't completely useless when taunted. You fail to see that mandibuzz is outclassed by many other pokemon and can't do anything to the opponent with that base 65 attack. Even lickylicky is a better general wall and that is saying something.

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 6:05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Just because mandibuzz can counter one poke suddenly makes it viable?
Did u not read my last post??? He is a good counter to darkrai, deo a, gene and darkeus, on top of being an a+ counter for an s rank threat. He can softly counter most cm arceus formes. Last I checked that's not one pokemon.
Also, mandibuzz is weak to SR (thanks for calling me stupid).
so is lugia. being weaker to sr doesnt make it unviable. I said your comparison was stupid
Darkrai can dark void mandibuzz and put it to sleep, then set up on mandibuzz
Because letting something else take the sleep is impossible?
and lugia can also whirlwind and take all of those hits hits better than mandibuzz.
Lugia is set up bait for ferrothorn, forretress, skarm etc which is why no (good) player uses it anymore. Mandibuzz is not. Lugia can't take all those hits better lmfao. He doesn't stand a chance against ghostceus and darkrai.
Other walls, have a move you've never heard of called dragon tail so they aren't completely useless when taunted.
Dragon tail has lower pp and a lower accuracy. Dragon tail users are also wrecked by subs. Again refer to my previous comment about commonality of taunt users.
You fail to see that mandibuzz is outclassed by many other pokemon
Which pokemon?!? Please u have failed to tell me which pokemon does every role I described, but better.
and can't do anything to the opponent with that base 65 attack.
And lugia does so much with its powerful base 90 lmfao? Does that mean skarmory is also unviable?
Even lickylicky is a better general wall and that is saying something.
Lol

Mr.lol · Mar 2nd, 2013, 6:29:40 PM

I see where both sides are coming from. While I do agree that it may initially seem that Mandibuzz sucks, this simply isn't the case, it thus, as a result, should be ranked above E rank (I can't decide whether C or D fits it better though).

Its poor bases may look as if it doesn't work at first, but after extensive testing in the previous research week, I think most of the community agrees that Mandibuzz isn't worthless. Its Special Bulk is pretty close to that of Lugia, and unlike Lugia, it gets Taunt to prevent the Ferrothorn that everyone loves and hates from using Leech Seed or hazards. It may have poor offensive bases, but that's more then assuaged with Taunt, Whirlwind, and Foul Play, which will make the opponent suffer if they try setting up in front of it. THAT is something no Blissey or Chansey can do, and frankly they're the only other things that come close to countering Ghost Arceus (but they get beat up by Sub + CM and SD versions which Mandibuzz can stop). I completely understand what you mean by why a pokemon shouldn't be ranked if they can stop just one threat, anyone who initially looked at Mandibuzz and thought of it being used in Ubers would've thought likewise, but that doesn't mean that if it is proven useful that the evidence / reasoning that proved it useful should be ignored :P.

With this being said, I'll address your points.

Quote:

Just because mandibuzz can counter one poke suddenly makes it viable? Also, mandibuzz is weak to SR (thanks for calling me stupid). Darkrai can dark void mandibuzz and put it to sleep, then set up on mandibuzz and lugia can also whirlwind and take all of those hits hits better than mandibuzz. Other walls, have a move you've never heard of called dragon tail so they aren't completely useless when taunted. You fail to see that mandibuzz is outclassed by many other pokemon and can't do anything to the opponent with that base 65 attack. Even lickylicky is a better general wall and that is saying something.

Its special bulk and decent physical bulk (recall its special bulk is comparable to Lugia), let it decently check other threats as well (look at puregenius's post for more information). Just because a Pokemon is SR weak doesn't mean its unviable. Ho-Oh, a pokemon 4* SR weak is used isn't it? Like Ho-Oh Mandibuzz has retaining qualities that let it be useful in Ubers. Unlike Lugia, Mandibuzz's access to Taunt lets it prevent things from setting up. Foul Play allows Mandibuzz to stop some threats that have Taunted it. Honestly I think puregenius addressed everything else so just read his post (for the record I was typing this up while he posted X_X).

I am not taking sides as to whether it should be C or D rank, but I do think we should rank Sableye (its not on the list and it was proved to be good too :P).

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 6:43:20 PM

Ill be honest I didn't realise he got foul play lol
Well then ur argument about offensive presence just went down the toilet

Magcargo 2 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat puregenius

Ill be honest I didn't realise he got foul play lol
Well then ur argument about offensive presence just went down the toilet

Well, I've decided to forget about arguing against Mandibuzz. Instead I'm going to nominate bisharp for B-rank. I recently used him and I've gotta say that I'm impressed. Bisharp's massive base 125 attack allows him to dent many bulky walls. STAB sucker punch and night slash give him some utility against mewtwo and lugia. It has low kick for resist and gives him perfect neutral coverage on everything bar heracross and toxicroak. Low kick will usually get 120 base power because everything in ubers is heavy. Rayquaza takes major Damage from sucker punch and giritina and lugia lose to bisharp one-on-one. Bisharp is a really good pokemon and C-Rank is a bit too low.

~~blitzlefan~~ · Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:36:25 PM

Mandibuzz, with its 110 / 105 / 95 defenses is surprisingly bulky. It is an excellent counter to CM Arceus-Ghost, as even a +6 Focus Blast cannot OHKO the bird. Countering Arceus-Ghost is also important, like Gastrodon counters Kyogre, being able to take down a S-tier Pokemon is big. Furthermore, CM Arceus forms at +1 with a neutral Judgment will only do 39.95 - 47.04%, a guaranteed 3HKO. Therefore, Mandibuzz can tank a Judgment if Stealth Rock isn't in play, and phaze Arceus out, meaning it is a check. Access to reliable recovery in Roost and utility in Taunt is pretty big as well.

However, the pros kind of end here. Mandibuzz is Stealth Rock weak, and has quite a few weaknesses. Mandibuzz also has very little offensive presence (with the exception of Foul Play, but that doesn't touch special attackers), and if Taunted, is hard-pressed to do anything important. Furthermore, a lot of the Dragon-types in Ubers can deal a lot of damage to Mandibuzz. I checked Honkalculator, and everything stronger than Choice Scarf Palkia's Thunder can 2HKO it. Lastly, a lot of Arceus types with neutral Judgments have coverage moves that can hit Mandibuzz supereffectively.

For example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat puregenius
Almost every single cm arceus can be stopped by mandibuzz. +1 ice beam/thunderbolt only does around 40-50%. Mandibuzz can easily switch in on the cm and whirlwind the arceus out or roost off the damage. This ecompasses grass, ground, fighting and bug. Poison, dark, flying and dragon do approximately the same, but slightly lower damage. Without rocks, it is a cakewalk. With rocks the situation is still manageable. Deoxys a is another offensive threat that mandibuzz can easily stop. Superpower only does approximately a third, even with only 8 def Evs on mandibuzz. What about gene? Do you consider him another arbitrary threat? Max atk u turn only does 24-29%, while ice beam does 28-33%.

I will now show calculations for the Pokemon you mentioned versus Mandibuzz. I stuck with the movesets standard for Arceus (first in Analysis), and assumed that Mandibuzz switched in on the turn that Arceus boosted (either CM or SD). Also, for reference, I used this set for Mandibuzz:
Mandibuzz (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Big Pecks
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Foul Play

Calculations for Arceus

...

Calculations for Deoxys-A

...

Calculations for Genesect

...

A bunch of these have the capability to 2HKO, so the Mandibuzz user is stuck in this dilemma: "I must phaze the opponent out or I will get swept. However, doing so leaves me at ~50%, meaning I may not be able to check what I am currently phazing out later. "Also, having 80 Base Speed, Mandibuzz won't outspeed much and will not be able to Roost without having to stomach a second attack. Mandibuzz also works better against stall teams, but with the offensive nature of the Ubers metagame, is hard pressed to fufill its role.

puregenius · Mar 2nd, 2013, 8:50:00 PM

My bad I should've mentioned mandibuzz only beats the focus sash atker set for deo a

The problem with gene is that he won't always have the right boost at the right time

I retract my statement about beating flyingceus and bugceus as I assumed they would run 4spa

Everything else is quite accurate

Note that if u can get mandibuzz in on a free switch, he can effectively outstall 4spa arceus that do not have se stabs

I forgot to mention this earlier, but mandibuzz also beats many gira o variants (ie the ones that do not carry outrage/thunder), which is another boon

Salamence97 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:17:58 PM

I would nominate Heracross for B, or at least C tier.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

For me, this describes Heracross the best. It can't sweep significant portions of the meta, but fulfill a given niche - an offensive status absorber/wall breaker (or a near-hard counter to Darkrai). Heracross may be outclassed by, say, CB Zekrom, or something like that, but is dangerous in its own right. If not anything else, this guy is an amazing partner for Ghostceus. Also, don't say GhostCeus and Giratina wall this bug to hell and back (for more info, see my post in 'Non-ubers in Ubers discussion' thread).

And here's the write up. Seems decent, though I can try to improve if asked to.
As a side note, I've focused on CB, anything else sucks on Hercross.

...

Magcargo 2 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:46:46 PM

Well heracross certainly deserves to be C-rank at the minimum. Dual 120 base power STABs and the ability to check dangerous pokemon like darkrai, arceus-dark and dialga definetly gives it a niche. While it is walled by giritina, who doesn't mind night slash (unless it is CB), he still is a good pokemon and deserves to be C-rank.

Salamence97 · Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:57:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Well heracross certainly deserves to be C-rank at the minimum. Dual 120 base power STABs and the ability to check dangerous pokemon like darkrai, arceus-dark and dialga definetly gives it a niche. While it is walled by giritina, who doesn't mind night slash, he still is a good pokemon and deserves to be C-rank.

Yeah, C-rank minimum (seeing as half decent stuff like Mence and Scizor are also C).
Actually, just wanted to point out that a CB Guts Adamant Night Slash does 46% minimum to 252 HP/252 Def Bold Giratina, a guaranteed 2HKO after SR, so it isn't completely true that Giratina 'doesn't mind Night Slash'.

-Manaphy-- · Mar 2nd, 2013, 11:20:45 PM

I would say C-Tier for Heracross, it definitely does not deserve B-tier when it literally dies to anything a powerful Uber can throw at it, not to mention his Speed stat of 85 simply won't cut it when most Pokemon have 90 minimum. While Night Slash is an option against Ghosts you have to consider that you ARE Choiced and 99% of the time you'll want to be spamming Megahorn and Close Combat. While Heracross is not a terrible stallbreaker, he's not amazing and it loses sorely to Offensive teams who can easily outspeed and OHKO it.

Overall though Heracross isn't awful and I'd call it 'half-decent' like the poster above me.

rileydelete · Mar 3rd, 2013, 11:19:24 AM

Hi there, I brought up adding Whimsicott a few days ago, and again, I definitely think it belongs in the C tier.

...

Feel free to tear my write-up apart-I may be wrong for even bringing the cottonball up.

Magcargo 2 · Mar 3rd, 2013, 11:39:20 AM

The subseed set is known for its mediocrity. I suggest changing the set to the support set, a far better set. The support set is able to paralyze the opponents and not be completely useless when grass types come in.

rileydelete · Mar 3rd, 2013, 12:17:14 PM

Unfortunately, that set is really Whimsicott's only niche. The only other viable support moves would be

-GrassWhistle
-Stun Spore
-Light Screen
-Memento
-Tailwind
-Toxic

Aside from toxic, the status-inducing moves have bad accuracy.

Setting up screens is a job better performed by something such as Lugia, Stalltwo, or Xatu.

Mememto is interesting if you want to set something up, but it can only be used once.

Tailwind is probably the best option for a slot but it's hindered by only lasting four turns. Reshiram or Ho-Oh do the job much better.

The standard set gives Whimsicott something that truely makes it unique. Thats why I believe it's the most viable set.

Magcargo 2 · Mar 3rd, 2013, 12:38:56 PM

Still, ferrothorn and shaymin-s do wall you and the ferrothorn user can predict the taunt and go for gyroball.

-Manaphy-- · Mar 3rd, 2013, 1:29:49 PM

Shaymin-S does the SubSeed role better than Whimsicott with much better stats, Serene Grace and the powerful Seed Flare and Air Slash. You said Whimsicott can set up a sub after forcing a switch-out, but honestly what would it force out at all? Nothing really, and Shaymin-S can force a number of Pokemon out including the extremely common Kyogre and Groudon.

rileydelete · Mar 3rd, 2013, 8:18:21 PM

As I've said, Grass types wall Whimsicott all day, but it has unique traits that set it apart from from Ferrothorn and Shaymin-S.

Shaymin-S is great offensively and really deserves it's place in the B tier. Base 100 states and Serene Grace truly make it a powerhouse. However, Whimsicott is arguably more mischievous in how fast it can start subseeding. Without doubt, Shaymin is a more viable Uber in general, but because Whimsicott can Subseed so well and so fast, it can actually be much more defensive and lend itself incredibly well to stall teams-especially those that use toxic spikes.

Ferrothorn is in the same boat as Shaymin-S in that it's typically the better pokemon. The thorn pod Pokemon can help it's team in a number of ways by setting up hazards, inflicting a status, hitting hard with Gyro Ball/Power Whip, and even launching seeds itself. Despite this though, the fact that Whimsicott can shut down walls like Chansey and switch into so many sweepers during set up, lock them into their set up move, and then force them out makes it difficult to deal with.

Again, Both Shaymin and Ferrothorn are usually better, but Whimsicott definitely has a unique niche. It deserves a spot on in the C-tier because of the great synergy it provides to stall teams.

Focus · Mar 4th, 2013, 1:42:47 AM

Hippowdon still isn't listed... It has awesome physical bulk, Slack Off, Sand Stream, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, and a nice STAB Earthquake. It's a great alternative to Tyranitar for setting up sand because it brushes off a number of physical threats like Blaziken, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and SD Arceus-Ghost while bringing in that lovely sandstorm. Compared to other weather setter-uppers, Hippowdon's physical bulk along with instant recovery sets it apart most of all, and that Electric immunity certainly does not hurt. It also can run Sand Force for use on a Rain team, which means much less opportunity cost than Arceus-Ground. I'd say B-rank because while is a great use of a team slot, it does have meh Special Defense and prominent weaknesses to Water, Ice, Grass.

Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:32:29 AM	#204
lousy918 Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 298 At home	I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic __________________ http://prntscr.com/sxnd3 \| http://prntscr.com/tprhc (13:00:26) ±Porygon: Your rank in Battle Factory is 1/422 [1180 points / 7 battles]! SCREW SMORGERN, THE MODS ARE GAY especially Jirachi, i checked the rules and insulting a set that indeed sucks is okay smogoners are bootlickers, sucking up to mods and giving them luvdiscs and rates but not to unbadged ppl who don't bootlick despite them posting a similar rmt earlier

Mar 2nd, 2013, 12:11:50 PM	#208
Magcargo 2 Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 499 Skarmory Sands	Just because mandibuzz can counter one poke suddenly makes it viable? Also, mandibuzz is weak to SR (thanks for calling me stupid). Darkrai can dark void mandibuzz and put it to sleep, then set up on mandibuzz and lugia can also whirlwind and take all of those hits hits better than mandibuzz. Other walls, have a move you've never heard of called dragon tail so they aren't completely useless when taunted. You fail to see that mandibuzz is outclassed by many other pokemon and can't do anything to the opponent with that base 65 attack. Even lickylicky is a better general wall and that is saying something. __________________ MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME

Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:17:58 PM	#215
Salamence97 Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 62 Delhi, India	I would nominate Heracross for B, or at least C tier. B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category. For me, this describes Heracross the best. It can't sweep significant portions of the meta, but fulfill a given niche - an offensive status absorber/wall breaker (or a near-hard counter to Darkrai). Heracross may be outclassed by, say, CB Zekrom, or something like that, but is dangerous in its own right. If not anything else, this guy is an amazing partner for Ghostceus. Also, don't say GhostCeus and Giratina wall this bug to hell and back (for more info, see my post in 'Non-ubers in Ubers discussion' thread). And here's the write up. Seems decent, though I can try to improve if asked to. As a side note, I've focused on CB, anything else sucks on Hercross. ... Initially, Heracross's mediocre offensive stats by Uber standards would suggest that it has trouble breaking through the bulky walls in the tier. In practice, however, it is quite the opposite. With a Choice Band attached, the king of UU can function as an extremely powerful wallbreaker even in Ubers. This is partly because of Heracross's movepool - consisting of its infamous dual STABs Close Combat and Megahorn, as well as decent coverage options such as Earthquake, Stone Edge and Night Slash. But Heracross's main niche comes from its ability - Guts. This ability gives Heracross a 50% attack boost when it is statused. It means that Heracross can freely switch into Toxic from Blissey and Lugia, or Will-o-Wisp from Giratina and defensive Arceus formes - statuses which will cripple other pokemon - and proceed to do massive damage. Also, by running Sleep Talk, it can directly absorb Darkrai's Dark Void. While Heracross is insanely powerful after a Guts boost, it has it's flaws. One of them is it's extremely frail, so it shouldn't switch into anything other than status moves. Secondly, while its still fast enough to outpace the walls, any offensive Pokemon can easily outrun it. A Choice Scarf might seem decent, but Heracross still can't outrun +1 base 90s, and loses out on a lot of power. Still, if you're looking for an offensive status absorber, a wall breaker with absurd power, or a near foolproof Darkrai counter, Heracross is worth a try.

Mar 2nd, 2013, 10:46:46 PM	#216
Magcargo 2 Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 499 Skarmory Sands	Well heracross certainly deserves to be C-rank at the minimum. Dual 120 base power STABs and the ability to check dangerous pokemon like darkrai, arceus-dark and dialga definetly gives it a niche. While it is walled by giritina, who doesn't mind night slash (unless it is CB), he still is a good pokemon and deserves to be C-rank. __________________ MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME Last edited by Magcargo 2; Mar 2nd, 2013 at 10:59:56 PM.

Mar 2nd, 2013, 11:20:45 PM	#218
-Manaphy-- Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 337 New York	I would say C-Tier for Heracross, it definitely does not deserve B-tier when it literally dies to anything a powerful Uber can throw at it, not to mention his Speed stat of 85 simply won't cut it when most Pokemon have 90 minimum. While Night Slash is an option against Ghosts you have to consider that you ARE Choiced and 99% of the time you'll want to be spamming Megahorn and Close Combat. While Heracross is not a terrible stallbreaker, he's not amazing and it loses sorely to Offensive teams who can easily outspeed and OHKO it. Overall though Heracross isn't awful and I'd call it 'half-decent' like the poster above me. __________________ <Scofield> I never got a chance to tell you about the time i met a girl named shucca <@JabbaTheGriffin> i would have started making ground move puns, and then when she doesn't get them you go "oh that wasn't as effective as i thought it'd be"

Mar 2nd, 2013, 7:42:33 AM	#205
puregenius Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 166	Oh my god I really didn't think this was necessary, but I have marked all sarcastic posts

Mar 2nd, 2013, 6:43:20 PM	#211
puregenius Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 166	Ill be honest I didn't realise he got foul play lol Well then ur argument about offensive presence just went down the toilet

Mar 2nd, 2013, 8:50:00 PM	#214
puregenius Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 166	My bad I should've mentioned mandibuzz only beats the focus sash atker set for deo a The problem with gene is that he won't always have the right boost at the right time I retract my statement about beating flyingceus and bugceus as I assumed they would run 4spa Everything else is quite accurate Note that if u can get mandibuzz in on a free switch, he can effectively outstall 4spa arceus that do not have se stabs I forgot to mention this earlier, but mandibuzz also beats many gira o variants (ie the ones that do not carry outrage/thunder), which is another boon

Mar 3rd, 2013, 11:19:24 AM	#219
rileydelete Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 52 The Great White North	Hi there, I brought up adding Whimsicott a few days ago, and again, I definitely think it belongs in the C tier. ... When you first see Whimsicott, the last thing on you mind may be that belongs in the Uber tier. Don’t be fooled though: this cute, cotton puffball can give teams a load of trouble. With a movepool containing a vast amount of status moves and Prankster able to give them all priority, Whimsicott is perhaps the greatest annoyer in the entire game. It can trap an opponent into a status move with Encore or shut down a hazard layer through Taunt. Yet this Pokémon’s most dangerous aspect is that it can take advantage of these situations and start the Subseed combo with priorty. Whimsicott can easily set up a Substitute after forcing a switch out, launch Leech Seed and then proceed to drain huge amounts of health from opponents by repeating substitute again and again. Take care when using though; Whimsicott is far and I mean FAR from perfect. Despite packing an impressive Base 116 speed, the “windveild” Pokemon hits as hard as a feather and has lackluster defenses. To make matters worse, Grass Types wall Whimsicott all day long, and anything faster with priority (read: Extremespeed) will doom the cotton creature. Still, if given proper team support, Whimsicott can really abuse its niche as an incredible disrupter. Try one out if you feel bold, the results may surprise you. Feel free to tear my write-up apart-I may be wrong for even bringing the cottonball up. __________________ "I feel like I got hit with a Dracula, by King Kong." -BMO

Mar 3rd, 2013, 11:39:20 AM	#220
Magcargo 2 Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 499 Skarmory Sands	The subseed set is known for its mediocrity. I suggest changing the set to the support set, a far better set. The support set is able to paralyze the opponents and not be completely useless when grass types come in. __________________ MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME

Mar 3rd, 2013, 12:17:14 PM	#221
rileydelete Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 52 The Great White North	Unfortunately, that set is really Whimsicott's only niche. The only other viable support moves would be -GrassWhistle -Stun Spore -Light Screen -Memento -Tailwind -Toxic Aside from toxic, the status-inducing moves have bad accuracy. Setting up screens is a job better performed by something such as Lugia, Stalltwo, or Xatu. Mememto is interesting if you want to set something up, but it can only be used once. Tailwind is probably the best option for a slot but it's hindered by only lasting four turns. Reshiram or Ho-Oh do the job much better. The standard set gives Whimsicott something that truely makes it unique. Thats why I believe it's the most viable set. __________________ "I feel like I got hit with a Dracula, by King Kong." -BMO

Mar 3rd, 2013, 12:38:56 PM	#222
Magcargo 2 Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 499 Skarmory Sands	Still, ferrothorn and shaymin-s do wall you and the ferrothorn user can predict the taunt and go for gyroball. __________________ MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME MY SHINY TEETH AND ME

Mar 3rd, 2013, 1:29:49 PM	#223
-Manaphy-- Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 337 New York	Shaymin-S does the SubSeed role better than Whimsicott with much better stats, Serene Grace and the powerful Seed Flare and Air Slash. You said Whimsicott can set up a sub after forcing a switch-out, but honestly what would it force out at all? Nothing really, and Shaymin-S can force a number of Pokemon out including the extremely common Kyogre and Groudon. __________________ <Scofield> I never got a chance to tell you about the time i met a girl named shucca <@JabbaTheGriffin> i would have started making ground move puns, and then when she doesn't get them you go "oh that wasn't as effective as i thought it'd be"

Mar 3rd, 2013, 8:18:21 PM	#224
rileydelete Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 52 The Great White North	As I've said, Grass types wall Whimsicott all day, but it has unique traits that set it apart from from Ferrothorn and Shaymin-S. Shaymin-S is great offensively and really deserves it's place in the B tier. Base 100 states and Serene Grace truly make it a powerhouse. However, Whimsicott is arguably more mischievous in how fast it can start subseeding. Without doubt, Shaymin is a more viable Uber in general, but because Whimsicott can Subseed so well and so fast, it can actually be much more defensive and lend itself incredibly well to stall teams-especially those that use toxic spikes. Ferrothorn is in the same boat as Shaymin-S in that it's typically the better pokemon. The thorn pod Pokemon can help it's team in a number of ways by setting up hazards, inflicting a status, hitting hard with Gyro Ball/Power Whip, and even launching seeds itself. Despite this though, the fact that Whimsicott can shut down walls like Chansey and switch into so many sweepers during set up, lock them into their set up move, and then force them out makes it difficult to deal with. Again, Both Shaymin and Ferrothorn are usually better, but Whimsicott definitely has a unique niche. It deserves a spot on in the C-tier because of the great synergy it provides to stall teams. __________________ "I feel like I got hit with a Dracula, by King Kong." -BMO Last edited by rileydelete; Mar 3rd, 2013 at 8:30:02 PM.

Mar 4th, 2013, 1:42:47 AM	#225
Focus Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 555 THORAX CORPORATION LLC,,.	Hippowdon still isn't listed... It has awesome physical bulk, Slack Off, Sand Stream, Stealth Rock, Whirlwind, and a nice STAB Earthquake. It's a great alternative to Tyranitar for setting up sand because it brushes off a number of physical threats like Blaziken, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Excadrill, and SD Arceus-Ghost while bringing in that lovely sandstorm. Compared to other weather setter-uppers, Hippowdon's physical bulk along with instant recovery sets it apart most of all, and that Electric immunity certainly does not hurt. It also can run Sand Force for use on a Rain team, which means much less opportunity cost than Arceus-Ground. I'd say B-rank because while is a great use of a team slot, it does have meh Special Defense and prominent weaknesses to Water, Ice, Grass.