(All Gens) Grass-Types

Umby · Oct 21st, 2012, 11:39:19 AM

Similar to that other discussion I made on Fire-types.

I was in a random chat where someone mentioned that Grasses generally sucked. While obviously that's incorrect, as I thought about it, they do have specific niches that make them useful, such as resistance to Electric/Water moves (some of the most common and in the case of Electric, possibly the most dangerous type of moves)and often access to useful moves like Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed.

We don't often see too many Grass-types in OU tiers, though:
RBY: Exeggutor
GSC: Exeggutor
ADV: Celebi
DPP: Breloom, Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin

And outside of ADV, Grasses don't seem to exist much in the BL tiers, instead populating the UU/NU tiers. Obviously, generally weak movepools and often lower speed contribute, but what else keeps Grass-types from succeeding? What strengths can they expound on to make themselves more useful?

Borat · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:06:33 PM

I think resistance to Ground and neutrality to Rock is what made them (Egg) viable the first gen.

Then when GSC rolled around, water is a nice bonus. And it (again, just Egg) "forced" electrics to go with boltbeam instead of boltwater or something.

Grass is a great defensive typing. Shitty elsewhere.

meteor64 · Oct 21st, 2012, 2:32:57 PM

Celebi is the only grass you really see in Adv OU because its just simply better than all the others. Need a defensive pivot? Celebi has Natural Cure, Recover AND Seed, alongside excellent bulk. Why would you use Venusaur, Ludicolo or Vileplume (who are actually reasonably good when you don't consider Celebi's existence). Need a deadly set up sweeper? Celebi has Calm Mind and still has that bulk and instant recovery. Egg can't boast that versatility as a sweeper despite sharing the same attacking movepool (and Explosion), and Ludicolo has an equally sparse offensive movepool and can't make use of Synthesis in rain. Additionally both of them are reliant on weather to do any kind of sweeping. Sceptile has one STAB and a crappy offensive movepool with no boosting moves outside of (lol) Swords Dance. As a Subseeder Breloom and Cacturne (yes, him) are both probably better than Celebi but Subseeders are pretty awkward to use, being completely reliant on Spikes and other support, and often just get pressure drained by the likes of Zapdos and Cune anyway.

Honestly, I wouldn't say grasses are bad in Adv, there's just one grass to rule them all.

Captain Evil · Oct 21st, 2012, 3:10:06 PM

The problem in RBY, which almost all Grass-types suffered from, was Gengar. With a resistance to Grass moves, an excellent Special stat and the Normal immunity, he was pretty much invulnerable to every Grass type not named Exeggutor. At least Venusaur and Victreebel would have been very good if not for the existence of the purple ghost. Parasect, Vileplume and Tangela have no such excuse, as they're quite bad, regardless of Gengar's nasty influence.

Jorgen · Oct 21st, 2012, 3:15:52 PM

Even without Gengar the fact that they were EQ-weak and were both weak to Psychic would have made Egg preferred in RBY anyway.

But yeah Grass has always been a stellar defensive type. It's just the fact that Grass-types either have horrible secondary typings which limit their defensive effectiveness or they just can't do anything on the offensive side but sit there and wait to die. Egg got Psychic as its second type in RBY, which only made it better on defense. In GSC Psychic typing made it a bit of a liability at times but gave it the necessary STAB for actually doing worthwhile damage with its attacks.

Crystal_ · Oct 21st, 2012, 3:48:57 PM

Want to say that Victreebel is pretty good in RBY: Wrap, Stun Spore, Razor Leaf, Sleep Powder/Hyper Beam. Granted, it does nothing to gengar other than status but otherwise is definitely really dangerous. Plus it's a great Slowbro counter!

Captain Evil · Oct 21st, 2012, 4:36:53 PM

I just want to mention how underrated Razor Leaf is in RBY. 55 base power might not seem like much, but given its high crit rate, it becomes an effective 110 base power, or 165 after factoring in STAB. Coming off Venusaur's 100 Special, it is very likely to put an ugly dent in anything that doesn't resist it (except Chansey). And as Crystal said: given how critical hits ignore stat-ups, it is certainly an excellent counter against Amnesia users in general and Slowbro in particular.

Hemp Man · Oct 21st, 2012, 4:44:39 PM

Well, Grass is good in Gen 5: Ferrothorn, Celebi, Breloom, Venusaur, and Abombasnow.

Problem with Grass is that they often only seem to get Grass and Normal moves to work with, and like any Steel type can stop that.

Oct 21st, 2012, 11:39:19 AM	#1
Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~ Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,502 I'm gonna bury you with my sound~	Grass-Types Similar to that other discussion I made on Fire-types. I was in a random chat where someone mentioned that Grasses generally sucked. While obviously that's incorrect, as I thought about it, they do have specific niches that make them useful, such as resistance to Electric/Water moves (some of the most common and in the case of Electric, possibly the most dangerous type of moves)and often access to useful moves like Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Leech Seed. We don't often see too many Grass-types in OU tiers, though: RBY: Exeggutor GSC: Exeggutor ADV: Celebi DPP: Breloom, Celebi, Roserade, Shaymin And outside of ADV, Grasses don't seem to exist much in the BL tiers, instead populating the UU/NU tiers. Obviously, generally weak movepools and often lower speed contribute, but what else keeps Grass-types from succeeding? What strengths can they expound on to make themselves more useful? __________________

Oct 21st, 2012, 2:32:57 PM	#3
meteor64 Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 201 Where do you live?	Celebi is the only grass you really see in Adv OU because its just simply better than all the others. Need a defensive pivot? Celebi has Natural Cure, Recover AND Seed, alongside excellent bulk. Why would you use Venusaur, Ludicolo or Vileplume (who are actually reasonably good when you don't consider Celebi's existence). Need a deadly set up sweeper? Celebi has Calm Mind and still has that bulk and instant recovery. Egg can't boast that versatility as a sweeper despite sharing the same attacking movepool (and Explosion), and Ludicolo has an equally sparse offensive movepool and can't make use of Synthesis in rain. Additionally both of them are reliant on weather to do any kind of sweeping. Sceptile has one STAB and a crappy offensive movepool with no boosting moves outside of (lol) Swords Dance. As a Subseeder Breloom and Cacturne (yes, him) are both probably better than Celebi but Subseeders are pretty awkward to use, being completely reliant on Spikes and other support, and often just get pressure drained by the likes of Zapdos and Cune anyway. Honestly, I wouldn't say grasses are bad in Adv, there's just one grass to rule them all. __________________ Otherwise known as TM1337 Falcon Punch Last edited by meteor64; Oct 21st, 2012 at 4:56:31 PM.

Oct 21st, 2012, 3:48:57 PM	#6
Crystal_ Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 833 Spain	Want to say that Victreebel is pretty good in RBY: Wrap, Stun Spore, Razor Leaf, Sleep Powder/Hyper Beam. Granted, it does nothing to gengar other than status but otherwise is definitely really dangerous. Plus it's a great Slowbro counter! __________________ Updated RBY analyses: ~~ Alakazam / Chansey / Dragonite / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Snorlax / Starmie / Tauros ~~ Articles: ~~ The RBY UU Metagame // Sleep and Leads in RBY ~~ Warstory: ~~ RBY Little Cup ~~ ****** RBY 251 ** The RBY Metagame with all GSC Pokemon allowed!

Oct 21st, 2012, 4:44:39 PM	#8
Hemp Man Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 744 USA California	Well, Grass is good in Gen 5: Ferrothorn, Celebi, Breloom, Venusaur, and Abombasnow. Problem with Grass is that they often only seem to get Grass and Normal moves to work with, and like any Steel type can stop that. __________________ This is Bleach love!

Oct 21st, 2012, 2:06:33 PM	#2
Borat Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 725	I think resistance to Ground and neutrality to Rock is what made them (Egg) viable the first gen. Then when GSC rolled around, water is a nice bonus. And it (again, just Egg) "forced" electrics to go with boltbeam instead of boltwater or something. Grass is a great defensive typing. Shitty elsewhere.

Oct 21st, 2012, 3:10:06 PM	#4
Captain Evil Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 48	The problem in RBY, which almost all Grass-types suffered from, was Gengar. With a resistance to Grass moves, an excellent Special stat and the Normal immunity, he was pretty much invulnerable to every Grass type not named Exeggutor. At least Venusaur and Victreebel would have been very good if not for the existence of the purple ghost. Parasect, Vileplume and Tangela have no such excuse, as they're quite bad, regardless of Gengar's nasty influence.

Oct 21st, 2012, 3:15:52 PM	#5
Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 749	Even without Gengar the fact that they were EQ-weak and were both weak to Psychic would have made Egg preferred in RBY anyway. But yeah Grass has always been a stellar defensive type. It's just the fact that Grass-types either have horrible secondary typings which limit their defensive effectiveness or they just can't do anything on the offensive side but sit there and wait to die. Egg got Psychic as its second type in RBY, which only made it better on defense. In GSC Psychic typing made it a bit of a liability at times but gave it the necessary STAB for actually doing worthwhile damage with its attacks.

Oct 21st, 2012, 4:36:53 PM	#7
Captain Evil Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 48	I just want to mention how underrated Razor Leaf is in RBY. 55 base power might not seem like much, but given its high crit rate, it becomes an effective 110 base power, or 165 after factoring in STAB. Coming off Venusaur's 100 Special, it is very likely to put an ugly dent in anything that doesn't resist it (except Chansey). And as Crystal said: given how critical hits ignore stat-ups, it is certainly an excellent counter against Amnesia users in general and Slowbro in particular.