The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[RabidChipmunk]

So I've been toying around Krookodile for a while and I seriously think he belongs in C-Rank.

What does Krookodile do? Well ostensibly his niche is that of a Choice Scarf Moxie sweeper, but he faces severe competition with Heracross in this regard, and when you're directly competing with Heracross for a niche, you're going to have a bad time. Krookodile's strongest STAB attack, Earthquake, is an extremely poor move to lock yourself into in UU (something over a dozen Pokemon in UU are outright immune to it -- Pokemon like Zapdos, Rotom, and Crobat. You know, Pokemon you DON'T want to give a free switch-in). His secondary STAB move is Crunch, a move with much better coverage but low base power, meaning that everything on his opponent's team has to be weakened pretty severely if he wants to sweep with it. And don't even think about trying to sweep with Stone Edge.

Ignoring Krookodile's niche as a Moxie Sweeper and just focusing on him as a revenge killer, he's still rather outclassed. Base 117 attack is modestly impressive, but when he's competing with other Pokemon like Darmanitan, Heracross, and Mienshao for the role of revenge killer, it takes a bit more than "modestly impressive" to leave a lasting impression. His unfortunate base 91 speed means that he also gets outsped by all those other Scarfer's too -- and yeah sure he outspeeds Heracross, but unless he's using Aerial Ace, it's not like he can do much to him.

Personally, I don't see what niche Krookodile fills in UU. As a revenge killer, he's outclassed by Mienshao and Heracross, and as a Moxie sweeper, he's outclassed by Heracross and even Honchkrow. Krookodile will work if you really want him to, but more often than not you're better off using something else. Krookodile for C-Rank.

[Pokemazter]

I'm going to support the notion to move Heracross down from S-Tier to A-tier, and support the moving of Cofagrigus from A-tier to S-Tier. I've enclosed my arguments in spoilers to help organize this post. I do not believe that Raikou should be dropped, since it is the pinnacle of Special Attacking in the Underused tier, possessing superb coverage and being more than capable of dismantling the tier with next-to-no support.

Heracross

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In a tier already heavily dominated by Fighting-types, Heracross stands among a select few who can really lay down the hurt in the Underused tier. However, it is no longer the best, as it's been usurped by Mienshao's wider movepool, greater Speed, and ability to bypass many checks that Heracross would otherwise fold against (namely Gligar). I've based my argument on 2 points, those being how the tier has adapted to Heracross, and how effective Heracross really is in the modern Underused metagame.

Ever since the release of Moxie Heracross, it's been something to always keep in mind when teambuilding and battling. However, in the 8 or so months its been around (yeah, that long), the tier has shifted to almost guarantee Heracross will be of no use until the final stages of a match. Gligar's usage spiked, as it is a full counter to nearly everything Heracross would dare throw at it. Cofagrigus rose from the peaks of RU to combat Heracross, and has inevitably won that battle. Qwilfish, another RU Pokemon, became another solid check to Heracross, packing Intimidate and only fearing Earthquake. Crobat became notoriously good for being able to eat anything but a Stone Edge and bust Heracross' horn with Brave Bird. Zapdos followed suit with Crobat, as it was also capable of nuking Heracross with Heat Wave or Hidden Power Flying. Mienshao was given Aerial Ace in order to warrant the revenge kill of Heracross. Nidoqueen's usage was given a slight revival, as it was adept at switching in on Heracross' STAB. In short, what I'm trying to get at is that Heracross isn't as safe as it used to be in such an ever-changing tier. The tier violently searched for ways to find a way to neuter the bug, and well, it came out in spades. everyone and their mother was and still is using 2 or 3 checks for Heracross, simply because it backed such a large punch. Its base 85 Speed quickly became a benchmark for other Pokemon to keep pace with, and nothing's really looked back since. Sableye, Cofagrigus, and Mew all became common checks to Heracross, as their Will-O-Wisp was more than capable of keeping one safe from that ever-looming threat in Heracross. This is why I'm glad we didn't quickban Heracross, as it was one of the last things introduced to the tier to inspire some creative teambuilding, using RU Pokemon to handle the metagame's former biggest threat (who's title probably belongs to Victini now).

Fast forward 8 months since Heracross really took the tier by the balls, and you'll see it just sorta bumming around, being used namely for revenge killing and cleaning house in the late game. The vast influx of checks and how predictable Heracross became really took a sizeable chunk out of how effective Heracross was. Everything listed in the current S-Tier is pretty much capable of beating Heracross 1-on-1, the exception being Snorlax, and many Pokemon in the A- and B-tiers follow suit. Even its other sets, such as Swords Dance and Choice Band, are a huge liability, as they open the door for a new wave of checks, such as Azelf, Arcanine, and other sets commonly outsped by the Scarf set, to come in and quickly eliminate Heracross. Heracross has never been well-known for its bulk either, as it's 2HKOed by many a threat in the tier. Many formerly uncommon sets have seen an increase in usage, such as Rain Dance Kingdra and OTR Cofagrigus, allowing Heracross to be outsped and eliminated with ease. With very few opportunities to switch in, and many Pokemon being paired or carrying coverage moves that will beat obvious Heracross switches, Heracross shouldn't be seen as a top tier threat anymore. It's a cured illness.

I also want to note that teams that get 6-0'd by Heracross are not a showcase of how good Heracross is, but rather that it's just an exceptionally poor teambuild that couldn't be bothered to check one of the bigger threats in the tier.

Cofagrigus

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Ever since Research Week Mk. 1 #5, it was clear that Cofagrigus was going to be Underused. Its ability to check every physical attacker in the tier (bar Darmanitan and Victini, since there's only like 6 Pokemon in existence that can actually do it) and massive offensive presence in the form of an Offensive Trick Room set would literally raise the bar on how to be a Ghost-type in UU. Regarding Cofagrigus, there isn't much of an argument that needs to be had to prove that it's S-Tier material - its the Special counterpart of Snorlax, which is reason enough on its own. With access to moves such as Haze and Will-O-Wisp, it's the true defensive hazer, as it's even capable of stomaching many Special Attacks while being capable of doing something in return to an opponent. Its ability Mummy cripples a wide number of threats, especially Azumaril, Sharpedo, Mienshao, and Heracross. Cofagrigus was capable of jumping into a higher tier and becoming a number one defensive Pokemon in a matter of less than half a year, which is an extraordinary feat by my books. It's the new Heracross, having grabbed the physical attackers of UU by the balls, dictating when a Fighting-type can and cannot fire of powerful STAB attacks, and effectively solving the Ambipom issue. By definition, Cofagrigus is more than deserving of the title S-Rank, as it truly is a Pokemon that needs next to no support if it wants to sweep or wall an opponent.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat RabidChipmunk

So I've been toying around Krookodile for a while and I seriously think he belongs in C-Rank.

What does Krookodile do? Well ostensibly his niche is that of a Choice Scarf Moxie sweeper, but he faces severe competition with Heracross in this regard, and when you're directly competing with Heracross for a niche, you're going to have a bad time. Krookodile's strongest STAB attack, Earthquake, is an extremely poor move to lock yourself into in UU (something over a dozen Pokemon in UU are outright immune to it -- Pokemon like Zapdos, Rotom, and Crobat. You know, Pokemon you DON'T want to give a free switch-in). His secondary STAB move is Crunch, a move with much better coverage but low base power, meaning that everything on his opponent's team has to be weakened pretty severely if he wants to sweep with it. And don't even think about trying to sweep with Stone Edge.

Ignoring Krookodile's niche as a Moxie Sweeper and just focusing on him as a revenge killer, he's still rather outclassed. Base 117 attack is modestly impressive, but when he's competing with other Pokemon like Darmanitan, Heracross, and Mienshao for the role of revenge killer, it takes a bit more than "modestly impressive" to leave a lasting impression. His unfortunate base 91 speed means that he also gets outsped by all those other Scarfer's too -- and yeah sure he outspeeds Heracross, but unless he's using Aerial Ace, it's not like he can do much to him.

Personally, I don't see what niche Krookodile fills in UU. As a revenge killer, he's outclassed by Mienshao and Heracross, and as a Moxie sweeper, he's outclassed by Heracross and even Honchkrow. Krookodile will work if you really want him to, but more often than not you're better off using something else. Krookodile for C-Rank.

Sorry to break it to you but I can't agree here. I myself have used Krook, and with results I can safely say Krook's still a baller. It has good sweeping prowess with Scarf and Moxie, which allow it to blow through teams like, easily. There are Pokemon who are immune to EQ, yes. But also, it has decent coverage, and is good enough to blow a team down once it gets going. Krookodile is pretty dangerous, and his 92 Speed with a Jolly nature is pretty decent, with only Scarf Mienshao usurping that. He has a lot of sweeping potential; he might need Spikes and SR support, but hey, so do other Moxie sweepers. Outperformed by something else generally? (Heracross) Sure. But still very dangerous? Yeah. I think it seems to fit in with the low B-Rankers pretty well.

[Swamp-Rocket]

Raikou & Heracross are definitely looking like the odd men out of S-tier.

Everyone is overly prepared for Heracross. The rise of Crobat & Cofagrigus and ghosts in general doesn't make things easier for Heracross; choiced Heracross sets are at their worst right now. I haven't seen anyone make great use out of Heracross in SPL, though this might be a temporary thing. I'm seriously considering dropping it down to A-tier.

Raikou is in a similar boat; you'll be hard pressed to find a team that doesn't at least make use out of Snorlax, Swampert, Scarf Flygon or Rhyperior. No matter what HP you use, something is going to check you

I think the fact people need to prepare for Heracross and Raikou (no questions asked sort of thing) is what makes them so good. Heracross's power ensures that if you can't check it, you're going to get swept. It's so powerful that it just plows through neutral stuff withou a second thought with a boosting item, and its not really frail or slow. Having to be over prepared is a really scary proposition. Similarly, against Raikou, if it sets up and you don't have Snorlax or the correct Ground-type (which adds up to only 1 counter and 3 checks), you just straight up lose.

The fact that you are forced to consider these two threats seriously whenever you make a team is what makes them (and really anything else) S-Rank. Other Pokemon in A-Rank and stuff you can opt out on checks to an extent and still have a pretty good team.

EDIT: What does Mew do in the current Metagame that makes it S-Rank? Not saying it doesn't deserve the rank, but I haven't seen any for a long time. If Cofagrigus deserves to be S-Rank, Mew seems like the worst of them at a glance...

[silenced]

Raikou is the pinnacle of special attackers, if not the pinnacle of all sweepers in UU as it's one of, if not the best sweeper, in terms of reducing the risk of hax stopping your sweep. By this I mean that accuracy is never an issue thanks to thunderbolt and hp ice having 100% accuracy, and no nasty drawbacks that may otherwise stop a sweep (e.g confusion hax from outraging kingdra kicking in at a critical moment). Substitute aids in lowering the risk of the one thing that is near impossible to control in the game, being critical hits, since they will only break the subs rather than KO unexpectedly.

I honestly cannot think of a more safer, reliable and deadly sweeper for this tier to use. (Just to add that onto all the other points in favour of raikou).

Other points already well said. Was glad to see escavalier go to B-rank as I've used it a little myself lately in a rather slow, bulky, hard hitting core that provides a small amount of trickroom support for it. For anyone interested, it was CB lax, Escavalier (had lefties over CB silly me) and a TR + 3 attacks slowbro. Had decent coverage in taking and dishing out hits, a double pursuit trap, and a nice anti-meta weapon in trick-room.

[Ernesto]

Ehh, I know I haven't been contributing to this thread for a while, but I have to say I disagree with a lot of what Pokemazter said regarding Heracross, mostly because it's talking only about Scarf MoxieCross. Of course, that was once regarded as the best set for it and it surely was amazing, to the point where Cofag and Gligar rose in usage, and Crobat became even better—although being a great check to the early BW2 dropouts probably helped it too. However, Guts Heracross continues to be a menace, and most of my teams have swiftly gone from Moxie to Guts—yes, on its Scarf set—mainly because of how great bulky Water-type answer it makes. And that's a really big role, because teams that lack a Scald absorber, though they can still be pretty cool, will struggle a lot on the ladder because of how annoying of a move Scald is. Sleep Talk on it is also pretty cool, being able to absorb Sleep from Roserade or Amoonguss and immediately threaten them with that powerful Guts-boosted Megahorn, albeit only 33% of the time.
Scarf Heracross also makes running some Scrafty, Krook, and Virizion sets a big liability, since it resists their dual STABs and can force them out with little effort. When one Pokemon does that and immediately poses a threat from teambuilding, that Pokemon surely is great.
That's not even taking into account that both Gligar and Cofagrigus stand a chance of losing against Hera's SD set, especially if it gets the Guts boost, which isn't that hard to accomplish. Some teams on SPL were even rather weak to SD Hera, first thing that comes to mind was DU's stall team against RT. if some circunstances weren't met—mainly regarding EV spreads on two of his Pokes.
As a final point, I don't really see how Mienshao is a better Fighting-type, sure it has cool abilities and a great Speed tier, while Hi Jump Kick is more powerful than Close Combat, however Mienshao requires more management to get into battle than Heracross does, due to it dying to a light breeze. Also the fact that its most spammable move can miss and bring nasty consequences—the biggest one being its death, since it probably won't stand the following hit, lol—makes Shao have little over Heracross, mainly its abilities and its Speed.

If anything, I'd see Mienshao, Crobat, or even freaking Mew dropping to A tier before Hera, even though there are arguments for all of them. I do agree that the S tier is starting to look cluttered, moreso if Cofag were to rise once again.

Raikou, on the other hand, is as amazing a threat as always. Combinations like Rhype+Shaymin, Flygon+Swampert, and Snorlax+(insert random Ground-type here) are used a lot not so much because of their coverage, but to prevent HP Raikou from sweeping your team. It's impossible to run just one answer to Raikou and call it a day, mainly since Rhype, Pert, Queen, and Lax lack reliable recovery and WILL be downed if both players are equally good.
Also the fact that Raikou makes for an amazing answer to Zapdos should be mentioned, since we all know how amazing Zapdos is. That must be accounted for, there hasn't been any metagame change that would make Raikou any less effective, except maybe the increase in Froslass usage being hand-in-hand with an increased Rhype usage, but even that's questionable. If Chansey were allowed in the tier, then I would be more open to considering Kou as an A-tier threat, but as it stands, there is little reason to do that.

Also yea, Escavalier is a pretty cool cat. Hail check, Sleep absorber, Pursuit-trapper, TR sweeper make it a good addition to many teams, even if that great Fire weakness makes it a questionable answer to offensive Roserade, at the very least—most Roserade run SP/SB/LS/Synthesis, but those that run HP Fire completely destroy it after its switch. However, it's a pretty good switch into non-HP Fire variants and a great check to SD Weavile, so it's really cool.

And finally, regarding Krook, I'm torn. I'd say that it isn't at its best as a Moxie cleaner due to Earthquake being hard to pull off and Crunch having low BP, but it's an excellent revenge killer, and Intimidate is a good ability even if Moxie is arguably better on it. I dunno, I could see it in either B or C, but one thing is certain, its UU status is highly questionable.

[Magcargo 2]

I've decided to try using Golurk in uu and he is pretty viable. It can beat heracross with fire punch, destroy rhyperior with EQ and break down slowbro with shadow punch. It is a great pokemon and seriously deserves consideration. I would say B-Rank.

[Pokemazter]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

I've decided to try using Golurk in uu and he is pretty viable. It can beat heracross with fire punch, destroy rhyperior with EQ and break down slowbro with shadow punch. It is a great pokemon and seriously deserves consideration. I would say B-Rank.

I'll support this notion, with C-Rank being the lowest it should hit if others disagree, as Golurk is also one of those few Ghost-types that can spinblock its own hazards, being able to set Stealth Rock rather reliably. It has solid typing, offering key resistances to the violently dangerous Electric- and Fighting-type threats found in the tier and enough bulk to tank a hit or two. It's not the quintessential Ghost-type that is Cofagrigus, but it offers utility via hazards and powerful attacks.

[Squidsauce]

Guys it's time for Froslass to go to S. In fact, I think it's broken, but let's leave that one for later.

I think we can all attest to how amazing froslass leads are. It's like the equivalent of Deo-D, only it's even better at the job. And Deo-D was just banned lol.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat Squidsauce

Guys it's time for Froslass to go to S. In fact, I think it's broken, but let's leave that one for later.

I think we can all attest to how amazing froslass leads are. It's like the equivalent of Deo-D, only it's even better at the job. And Deo-D was just banned lol.

Froslass is countered by anything that is faster that has taunt and has poor defenses. It is a good mon, but not S-Rank material. Also, say that its better than deoxys-d is an overstatement. Deoxys-d could get rid of ALL the pokemon that can prevent hazards with certain moves.

[Warb]

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Froslass is countered by anything that is faster that has taunt and has poor defenses. It is a good mon, but not S-Rank material. Also, say that its better than deoxys-d is an overstatement. Deoxys-d could get rid of ALL the pokemon that can prevent hazards with certain moves.

While it may not be the ridiculousness that is Deoxys-D when it comes to reliably getting hazard onto the field, Froslass is (imo) one hell of a threat.
You make it sound easy to prevent her from getting up spikes, but let us compile a list of Pokes that actually force her to not lay down at least one layer of spikes, shall we:

Ambipom - Taunt and Beat Up, especially the latter, work very well against Froslass, but otherwise it is pretty mediocre; 2HKO'd by 252 SAtk Froslass' Ice Beam, in case it doesn't carry Beat Up

Azelf - Also 2HKO'd by Ice Beam; if Azelf taunts first turn, and Froslass uses Ice Beam, Froslass kills Azelf and potentially sets up one layer of spikes afterwards. The best play might be just SR on turn one, then maybe attack on turn 2.

Crobat - Takes 76%-89% from Ice Beam; In a lead vs lead matchup, Froslass will most likely use Ice Beam turn 1, so Crobat can either Taunt and Roost stall for a bit, or U-Turn out into a scarfer that is not OHKO'd by Ice Beam. If Crobat uses Brave Bird on turn 1, it will die to Ice Beam.

Sableye - Ok ... Froslass can't do jack shit to Sableye, Ice Beam is only a 3HKO, which means Taunt -> Recover / Toxic / WoW -> Toxic / WoW / Recover

Tornadus - 40% chance to get OHKO'd ...

Weavile - Beat Up I guess. If Froslass stays in, you get a free kill without having commited anything. If a Cobalion comes in on Beat Up, you are screwed (I know, very random scenario, but if Froslass continues to rise in usage, Beat Up pokemon may become more common, and so could this thing as well)

Xatu - 2HKO'd by Ice Beam and can't outspeed, the one useful thing Xatu does against Froslass is making your opponent overpredict, so something, so something like lead Rhyperior might take it out (needs 3 hits on Rock Blast though). Random thought at this point: Scarf Xatu on the lead spot, with a second scarfer (that isn't called Flygon) somewhere else

Mew - Magic Coat owns Froslass

Looking at these matchups, the more all-around-useful Pokemon have rather shaky matchups against Froslass (Mew excluded), while the more or less "surefire counters" all involve a greater risk to them or are easily stopped by other more commonly used Pokemon.

But I do agree that Froslass doesn't fit the definition of a S-Rank Pokemon. It doesn't make it less threatening though, and I think it is indeed broken in a way.

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat Warb

While it may not be the ridiculousness that is Deoxys-D when it comes to reliably getting hazard onto the field, Froslass is (imo) one hell of a threat.
You make it sound easy to prevent her from getting up spikes, but let us compile a list of Pokes that actually force her to not lay down at least one layer of spikes, shall we:

Ambipom - Taunt and Beat Up, especially the latter, work very well against Froslass, but otherwise it is pretty mediocre; 2HKO'd by 252 SAtk Froslass' Ice Beam, in case it doesn't carry Beat Up

Azelf - Also 2HKO'd by Ice Beam; if Azelf taunts first turn, and Froslass uses Ice Beam, Froslass kills Azelf and potentially sets up one layer of spikes afterwards. The best play might be just SR on turn one, then maybe attack on turn 2.

Crobat - Takes 76%-89% from Ice Beam; In a lead vs lead matchup, Froslass will most likely use Ice Beam turn 1, so Crobat can either Taunt and Roost stall for a bit, or U-Turn out into a scarfer that is not OHKO'd by Ice Beam. If Crobat uses Brave Bird on turn 1, it will die to Ice Beam.

Sableye - Ok ... Froslass can't do jack shit to Sableye, Ice Beam is only a 3HKO, which means Taunt -> Recover / Toxic / WoW -> Toxic / WoW / Recover

Tornadus - 40% chance to get OHKO'd ...

Weavile - Beat Up I guess. If Froslass stays in, you get a free kill without having commited anything. If a Cobalion comes in on Beat Up, you are screwed (I know, very random scenario, but if Froslass continues to rise in usage, Beat Up pokemon may become more common, and so could this thing as well)

Xatu - 2HKO'd by Ice Beam and can't outspeed, the one useful thing Xatu does against Froslass is making your opponent overpredict, so something, so something like lead Rhyperior might take it out (needs 3 hits on Rock Blast though)

Mew - Magic Coat owns Froslass

Looking at these matchups, the more all-around-useful Pokemon have rather shaky matchups against Froslass (Mew excluded), while the more or less "surefire counters" all involve a greater risk to them or are easily stopped by other more commonly used Pokemon.

But I do agree that Froslass doesn't fit the definition of a S-Rank Pokemon. It doesn't make it less threatening though, and I think it is indeed broken in a way.

Yes I underestimated froslass, but it isn't S-Rank material. Weavile can actually beat it with the combination of night slash and ice shard.

[sickweare]

Add that to the fact that Froslass almost never runs 252 SpA EV's. It's standard has fully invested HP for survivability, so those threats to her are even more annoying.

Edit: Actually the dedicated lead runs full investment in Special Attack which is interesting because of it's naturally low offensive stats. It's still not as common iirc as the standard utility set.

[Not Jacky]

Originally Posted by Fat sickweare

Add that to the fact that Froslass almost never runs 252 SpA EV's. It's standard has fully invested HP for survivability, so those threats to her are even more annoying.

Edit: Actually the dedicated lead runs full investment in Special Attack which is interesting because of it's naturally low offensive stats. It's still not as common iirc as the standard utility set.

In the most recent usage stats, 252 SpA Froslass made up 47.25% of all Froslass, and 60% of all Froslass had Focus Sash (which begs the question if there are Focus Sash Froslass with defense investment, but that's another argument). It's safe to say that most Froslass are dedicated leads supporting heavily offensive teams.

[sickweare]

Wow okay, I probably should have done some more research then xD

I guess I'm one of the few who use froslass as utility over dedicated lead. I will have to try out offensive lead froslass to see what it can do, if it provides some more to my team. Thanks for the correction. I still don't quite think Froslass is good enough to be considered for such high placement in the ranks. It is a really good mon and seems fine where it is.

[Zaon]

I think Cofagrigus deserves the S Rank.

It is one of the best pokemon in the metagame. The Defensive set is one of the best stallers, able to check or counter nearly all physical threats, cripple them with WoW, haze boosts and its ability mummy is really useful against some sweepers like Azumaril, Sharpedo, Mienshao, and Heracross. Its special bulk, while not as good as its physical bulk allows it to even take special hits. Cofagrigus is like a Snorlax on the physical side.
The OTR is also great, really easy to set-up thanks to its great bulk and useful resistances, can sweep team once special walls are down and fits great on offensive teams thanks to its great typing and defenses.
For all these reasons, I think Cofagrigus should be in S Rank.

[Squidsauce]

Froslass without focus sash (i.e not dedicated leads) will run leftovers and 252 hp. This way it can easily set up 3 layers of spikes since it can tank a lot, and also be blazing fast.

Ambipom - Taunt and Beat Up, especially the latter, work very well against Froslass, but otherwise it is pretty mediocre; 2HKO'd by 252 SAtk Froslass' Ice Beam, in case it doesn't carry Beat Up

Azelf - Also 2HKO'd by Ice Beam; if Azelf taunts first turn, and Froslass uses Ice Beam, Froslass kills Azelf and potentially sets up one layer of spikes afterwards. The best play might be just SR on turn one, then maybe attack on turn 2.

Crobat - Takes 76%-89% from Ice Beam; In a lead vs lead matchup, Froslass will most likely use Ice Beam turn 1, so Crobat can either Taunt and Roost stall for a bit, or U-Turn out into a scarfer that is not OHKO'd by Ice Beam. If Crobat uses Brave Bird on turn 1, it will die to Ice Beam.

Sableye - Ok ... Froslass can't do jack shit to Sableye, Ice Beam is only a 3HKO, which means Taunt -> Recover / Toxic / WoW -> Toxic / WoW / Recover

Tornadus - 40% chance to get OHKO'd ...

Weavile - Beat Up I guess. If Froslass stays in, you get a free kill without having commited anything. If a Cobalion comes in on Beat Up, you are screwed (I know, very random scenario, but if Froslass continues to rise in usage, Beat Up pokemon may become more common, and so could this thing as well)

Xatu - 2HKO'd by Ice Beam and can't outspeed, the one useful thing Xatu does against Froslass is making your opponent overpredict, so something, so something like lead Rhyperior might take it out (needs 3 hits on Rock Blast though). Random thought at this point: Scarf Xatu on the lead spot, with a second scarfer (that isn't called Flygon) somewhere else

Mew - Magic Coat owns Froslass

Honestly from this list, the only thing that wins is sableye. I'm not sure where I can see the movesets and %usage per move, but I'll say that I've run into shadowball variants more than enough times to say that azelf is even less of a check and magic guard mew isn't a surefire stop. Also, how many people run beatup on Ambipom...?

Also, don't forget a lot run thunderwave, which is annoying because most of the time people attempt to kill froslass with a scarf pokemon. Again, I nominate it for S rank.

(also in the 1850 ratings, froslass had the highest net positive compared to regular. js)

[SBP33]

Escavalier, for one, I don't feel belongs quite in B rank. While base 135 attack (if memory serves) is pretty monstrous, only rivaled by a couple of others, there are many pokemon that can deal with Escavalier pretty handily, namely zapdos, registeel, gligar, rhyperior (due to solid rock) and even magneton. Even suicune and milotic check it well, and escavalier definitely doesn't want to get burned with the ever-prevelant scald. This reasoning compels me to suggest escavalier to be high c-rank. A great pokemon, but pretty easily dealt with in the UU tier

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat SBP33

Escavalier, for one, I don't feel belongs quite in B rank. While base 135 attack (if memory serves) is pretty monstrous, only rivaled by a couple of others, there are many pokemon that can deal with Escavalier pretty handily, namely zapdos, registeel, gligar, rhyperior (due to solid rock) and even magneton. Even suicune and milotic check it well, and escavalier definitely doesn't want to get burned with the ever-prevelant scald. This reasoning compels me to suggest escavalier to be high c-rank. A great pokemon, but pretty easily dealt with in the UU tier

Even with some flaws that hold Escavalier back, his sheer power just can't be overlooked. 135 Attack with Megahorn is dangerous, and even resists will be sure to take a whole lot of pain. Rhyperior takes a real load of damage, (Iron Head and Megahorn will have equal damage output, and most periors are specially defensive) as does Zapdos. Registeel is a bad Pokemon to begin with so Escavalier doesn't really care. Gligar check everything anyways so that shouldn't be counted in an argument against. Magneton is rare. That said, Escavalier, besides having ridiculous power, is also decently bulky, 70 / 105 / 105 can take a good amount of hits, and a Bug / Steel typing is very good, so it can very amply check Roserade, Shaymin, Weavile, and some others too. Basically if you don't pack a fire move or cannot hit Escavalier hard enough, you're getting checked. Combine this with the ability to punch massive holes, trap with Pursuit, and a solid TR sweeper to be anti meta with, you've got a solid B-Rank Pokemon.

TL;DR Overall I think Escavalier should stay in B: its power, typing, Pursuit, and Bulk more than make up for its flaws imo.

[SBP33]

Originally Posted by Fat ScraftyIsTheBest

Even with some flaws that hold Escavalier back, his sheer power just can't be overlooked. 135 Attack with Megahorn is dangerous, and even resists will be sure to take a whole lot of pain. Rhyperior takes a real load of damage, (Iron Head and Megahorn will have equal damage output, and most periors are specially defensive) as does Zapdos. Registeel is a bad Pokemon to begin with so Escavalier doesn't really care. Gligar check everything anyways so that shouldn't be counted in an argument against. Magneton is rare. That said, Escavalier, besides having ridiculous power, is also decently bulky, 70 / 105 / 105 can take a good amount of hits, and a Bug / Steel typing is very good, so it can very amply check Roserade, Shaymin, Weavile, and some others too. Basically if you don't pack a fire move or cannot hit Escavalier hard enough, you're getting checked. Combine this with the ability to punch massive holes, trap with Pursuit, and a solid TR sweeper to be anti meta with, you've got a solid B-Rank Pokemon.

TL;DR Overall I think Escavalier should stay in B: its power, typing, Pursuit, and Bulk more than make up for its flaws imo.

I am not doubting escavalier's sweeping potential in the slightest, and yes it does check threatening pokemon well (weavile sticking out most to me) Agreed, magneton and registeel are fairly rare cases in UU these days, but it doesn't discredit the common bulky waters along with the fire types that slipped my mind previously (frankly victini doesn't want to switch in on a megahorn, especially from banded variants) but he and arcanine obviously ruin escavalier's day, as well as chandelure. Also, trick room honestly doesn't hold as much merit as we would probably like, with escavalier, snorlax and rhyperior being the largest physical candidates and cofagrigus and slowbro on the special side. With umbreon, gligar, cofagrigus and slowbro running around defensively, there are challenges for trick room teams to honestly thrive, but it is feasible. I digress from trick room, but there simply isn't enough out there escavalier can severely dent and get away without at least moderate damage, and that to me separates the truly effective sweepers, and that is what leads me to believe escavalier isn't quite b-rank. Threatening? Yes. Effective? Not as great as most physical sweepers out there. High C-rank in my eyes.

[namehtmas]

Escavalier isn't a sweeper though. It's most popular set is CB for good reason. It has reasonable bulk and a slew of resistances that allow it to come in pretty easily and whatever comes in really, really hard. Of course it's not that good at physically sweeping because that's not what it does at all.

[Magcargo 2]

Why exactly is Xatu C-rank? It walls most defensive pokemon and prevents hazards from getting setup. It has a nice U-turn to gain momentum and can setup dual screens thanks to its "not too shabby" defensive typing. It also walls several support pokemon and UU's second best spinblocker, Sableye. While it doesn't have the best stats, its still a great pokemon.

[ScraftyIsTheBest]

Originally Posted by Fat SBP33

I am not doubting escavalier's sweeping potential in the slightest, and yes it does check threatening pokemon well (weavile sticking out most to me) Agreed, magneton and registeel are fairly rare cases in UU these days, but it doesn't discredit the common bulky waters along with the fire types that slipped my mind previously (frankly victini doesn't want to switch in on a megahorn, especially from banded variants) but he and arcanine obviously ruin escavalier's day, as well as chandelure. Also, trick room honestly doesn't hold as much merit as we would probably like, with escavalier, snorlax and rhyperior being the largest physical candidates and cofagrigus and slowbro on the special side. With umbreon, gligar, cofagrigus and slowbro running around defensively, there are challenges for trick room teams to honestly thrive, but it is feasible. I digress from trick room, but there simply isn't enough out there escavalier can severely dent and get away without at least moderate damage, and that to me separates the truly effective sweepers, and that is what leads me to believe escavalier isn't quite b-rank. Threatening? Yes. Effective? Not as great as most physical sweepers out there. High C-rank in my eyes.

You're missing the point of Escavalier as I can tell in this post. He isn't meant to sweep whole teams, but rather punch holes in teams. His typing and bulk ensure that he can switch in on things like Roserade, Shaymin, and Weavile and start smashing dents into teams. Fire-types may give it some hard time, but he can give them some real pain. His job is to punch holes, not sweep. He's B-Rank because while he can't sweep significant portions of the metagame, he fulfills an offensive niche; Spam Megahorn.

Originally Posted by Fat Magcargo 2

Why exactly is Xatu C-rank? It walls most defensive pokemon and prevents hazards from getting setup. It has a nice U-turn to gain momentum and can setup dual screens thanks to its "not too shabby" defensive typing. It also walls several support pokemon and UU's second best spinblocker, Sableye. While it doesn't have the best stats, its still a great pokemon.

It's C-Rank because while Magic Bounce is great, it has a hard time blocking hazards from some of the common hazard setters, like Froslass and Rhyperior. These two can hit it super effectively, and it has competition from Cofagrigus as a Fighter killer. Page 11 explains better.

[Feel Good Inc.]

After using it for a while, I think Tangrowth would be well-suited for B-rank, much to my surprise it wasn't listed yet. It takes physical hits very well, not to mention its durability due to Regenerator and can easily seed/sleep Pokémon on the switch. It very often lures out Chandelure and Roserade as well, allowing you to switch to an appropriate counter.

Any thoughts?

[Magcargo 2]

Originally Posted by Fat Feel Good Inc.

After using it for a while, I think Tangrowth would be well-suited for B-rank, much to my surprise it wasn't listed yet. It takes physical hits very well, not to mention its durability due to Regenerator and can easily seed/sleep Pokémon on the switch. It very often lures out Chandelure and Roserade as well, allowing you to switch to an appropriate counter.

Any thoughts?

Eh, I'm leaning towards C-Rank for Tangrowth. While his physical bulk is no doubt solid, his special bulk is horrible. This cannt be stressed enough since Tangrowth is 2HKO'd by a negative nature life orb feraligatr's ice beam. The common fire types have no trouble destroying it either. It does deserve to be ranked, but I find C-Rank more appropiate.