The UU Viability Ranking Thread

[Cesterp]

Hitmonlee should be C rank. Late game when your opponent only has a few offensive threats left/their walls are weakened significantly, Hitmonlee comes in, Normal Gem Fake Out's, and proceeds to sweep with Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Earthquake. After eliminating bulky ghosts, unless your opponent has their Crobat already out on the field with more than 25% HP, Hitmonlee is going to do some serious damage to their team. Of course, crippling flaws being it can't take on ghost types at all other than Chandelure, it doesn't have a guaranteed KO on Heracross unless you have SR on the field and you're running Blaze Kick over something, and it's frail as anything. Remains effective, however.

I'm also going to suggest Sceptile at least show up. It stops fighting types from switching in and will kill them if they try (Flying Gem Acrobatics says hi), and has the potential to break through some walls in the tier (Slowbro, all 4 possible spinners, Swampert, other various less notable stuff). Sceptile can be deadly if it gets an SD off or activates Unburden with Acrobatics, but it also has some major flaws, such as failing to do anything to Bronzong. Sceptile outspeeds everything unboosted in the game after Unburden (except something like scarfed Deo-S and scarfed Ninjask, because both are totally viable), and even most boosted things. As said, it doesn't like most walls that occupy UU, and works better as a killer of all things offensive. I'm suggesting B, as it effectively is a Crobat that possesses the ability to always kill bulky waters and also take out all of the spinners (ignoring the fact that Blastoise fits into both of these groups), which I think is a significant enough niche for it to fit in to. Partially outclassed? Check. Still very dangerous? Check.

Unburden users. Yay.

[SJCrew]

Yes but you failed to consider that Nidoqueen is primarily an offensive Pokemon. I'm referring to 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe 100 / 252 / 156. It's a powerful special attacker that can pull double duty as a good Hera check, and decent check to Electric-types is what makes it more noticeably more useful than Nidoking. Also give me a break, Togekiss, Suicune and Gligar (Gligar, really dude) rarely, run max speed and Honchkrow is slower than Nidoqueen which I mentioned in my previous post. It's worth being slower than Kingdra, opposing Nidoking and Chandelure since the trade off is a Pokemon that is much more reliable in general. You should focus on the fact Nidoqueen doesn't die to a light tap, whereas Nidoking is usually getting OHKOed / 2HKOed (resisted) by some of the heavier threats in tier. There's no pressing need to be fast in the 70-85 base speed tier anyway, you're still slow. I suppose a team that utilizes Nidoqueen over King has to lean on Snorlax to take out Chandelure, but seriously that's one minor hindrance to using QUeen.

No that is not more reliable. Nothing you listed in that post included examples of what makes her more reliable than Nidoking. You went through and handwaved all of my examples of common Pokemon she is unable to check due to her low speed with weak reasoning like "I can use teammates for that." The entire point of an offensive Pokemon is to clean house and work for its team, which Nidoking has been doing since the beginning of Black and White while Nidoqueen set up rocks and died. Now she's suddenly better because "bulk"?

Nidoqueen isn't even that bulky. Most Fighting-types and other sweepers with a boosting item can just run right through her as she switches in (Heracross and Mienshao, for example) or straight up OHKO her at +2 with SR damage. The Electric-types you mentioned still 2HKO her with HP Ice as she switches in while Raikou just OHKOs her with +1 LO HP Ice after SR. Specs Rotom-H OHKOs with Overheat. Both Nidos are 3HKOed by Jolly Hera's CC after SR.

At the end of the day, Nidoqueen is beating less Pokemon than Nidoking, period. Players that prefer her for checking Scarf Hera is one thing, but saying she outclasses Nidoking? lol, bullshit. I'd honestly rather her not be in A-tier at all, but putting Nidoking in B-tier is a joke and ruins the credibility of this list.

[kokoloko*]

Nidoking has never been A-tier material tbh. Before BW2 it was nothing but an extremely one dimentional beat-stick--not A-tier material if you ask me. Now it's actually got some utility outside "hitting hard" (you know how big I am in utility), and that's what makes it worth using. The thing is, Nidoqueen has more of it. The speed is only useful for Chandelure, since you're actually tying with everything else, not winning, and good players don't (or I should say shouldnt) rely on speed ties unless they have to.

It's not a matter of prefering Nidoqueen it's just that it is legitimately better.

PS. I thing they're both B-tier material. Nidoqueen is just high tier while Nidoking is low tier.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

No that is not more reliable. Nothing you listed in that post included examples of what makes her more reliable than Nidoking. You went through and handwaved all of my examples of common Pokemon she is unable to check due to her low speed with weak reasoning like "I can use teammates for that." The entire point of an offensive Pokemon is to clean house and work for its team, which Nidoking has been doing since the beginning of Black and White while Nidoqueen set up rocks and died. Now she's suddenly better because "bulk"?

Ahem.

Nidoqueen is just as effective at killing things, doesn't die to a light breeze and is a far better check to Heracross, Mienshao, Zapdos, Raikou... (things that can't OHKO it in general). Which is what I meant by being "more reliable". She didn't get suddenly better, good players have been using Queen over King for a decent while now. Handwaving? Maybe you're not just not paying attention, because half of the Pokemon you mentioned don't usuallyrun speed. There are some obvious exceptions (Suicune) but the vast majority of the time you're looking at min speed Suicune. Nidoking can outspeed Chandelure, Kingdra(it ties with some of them) and tie with opposing Nidoking. That's great, and it totally didn't stop being a thing or anything, thats like its best advantages it has over Nidoqueen. My main point is that you're seriously overstating how good said advantages are, because let's be real here, they're inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. Base 85 speed on an offensive Pokemon is not good in any sense of the word... like, Nidoking isn't winning any awards for being in that speed tier, because in comparison to everything else in UU it's goddamn slow.

Nidoqueen isn't even that bulky. Most Fighting-types and other sweepers with a boosting item can just run right through her as she switches in (Heracross and Mienshao, for example) or straight up OHKO her at +2 with SR damage. The Electric-types you mentioned still 2HKO her with HP Ice as she switches in while Raikou just OHKOs her with +1 LO HP Ice after SR. Specs Rotom-H OHKOs with Overheat. Both Nidos are 3HKOed by Jolly Hera's CC after SR.

Nidoqueen fairly bulky for an offensive Pokemon. For some reason, you're still under the impression that Nidoqueen users just throw it at Fighting-types/Electric-types willy nilly and except to counter them, which doesn't happen in practice. Your hand picked calcs are convenient, but my point was to show you that Nidoqueen can actually be used to somewhat check Electric-types while Nidoking is damn near worthless at checking them.

+1 Raikou vs Nidoking: Hidden Power Ice: 266-314 (87.5 - 103.28%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 Raikou vs Nidoqueen: Hidden Power Ice: 240-284 (69.36 - 82.08%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

LO Zapdos vs Nidoking: Hidden Power Ice: 246-290 (80.92 - 95.39%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

LO Zapdos vs Nidoqueen: Hidden Power Ice: 222-262 (64.16 - 75.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

As for Heracross vs the Nidos. Both of them are 3HKOed by CC... but Nidoking only avoids the 2HKO if it's at max health.

Heracross vs Nidoking: Close Combat: 118-140 (38.81 - 46.05%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Heracross vs Nidoqueen: Close Combat: 107-126 (30.92 - 36.41%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

-If Nidoking has taken 20~ damage, it's 2HKOed by CC.
-If Spikes & SR are up, it's 2HKOed CC.

There's also Earthquake from Heracross (that didn't stop being a thing either)

Heracross vs Nidoking: Earthquake: 264-312 (86.84 - 102.63%) -- 56.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Heracross vs Nidoqueen: Earthquake: 238-282 (68.78 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Nidoqueen has the luxury of staying in and tanking EQ, which is relevant in situations where Scarf Heracross is matched up vs Nidoqueen & Ground immune / resist, and there's always the chance the Heracross could predict and attacking using a coverage move.
(which actually just happened to me so...)

Really, I think yuou're marginalizing how useful of an offensive check Nidoqueen is to Heracross. Heracross is basically "a" King. If you're effective against the king, you're really good, it's that simple. Nidoqueen is more effective against Heracross than Nidoking and has the bulk to check (and avoid kos) multiple threats. Do you have any idea how many options that gives you? Nidoking is ONLY an attacker, Nidoqueen can play offense AND defense.

At the end of the day, Nidoqueen is beating less Pokemon than Nidoking, period. Players that prefer her for checking Scarf Hera is one thing, but saying she outclasses Nidoking? lol, bullshit. I'd honestly rather her not be in A-tier at all, but putting Nidoking in B-tier is a joke and ruins the credibility of this list.

That is not in dispute here. Nidoqeeun is unmistakably better than Nidoking in UU, like its almost an objective fact. Never did I mention that she outclassed Nidoking (as outclassed would imply that Nidoking doesn't really have a niche over Nidoqueen). And it's not like i'm pulling this out of my ass either, RT's team (one of the best UU teams mind you) makes better use out of Nidoqueen despite the fact that his team is massively weak Chandelure. What does that tell you? I've also happened to watched a decent chunk of UU open matches (not spoiling teams / players) and I noticed a hell of lot more players using Nidoqueen over Nidoking.

You can argue that Nidoking is A tier but don't try and make your case by simultaneously putting Nidoqueen down, because it won't work. Nidoking is just an example of someone who doesn't really translate that well in battle at all, in the sense of being like his "on paper" sense. On paper, he's one of your best damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a obscene wallbreaker. In battle, he's not quite as good. He's got awesome power, but disappointing speed and even unimpressive bulk.

---

For the purpose of settling this, i'm going to quote some great UU players

Originally Posted by Fat FlareBlitz

The best players in the tier, including myself, prefer offensive Nidoqueen over Nidoking because it can actually check Heracross and Mienshao and Zapdos and Raikou and Flygon and [insert Pokemon above Nidoking's mediocre speed tier with powerful attacks]. Offensive Nidoqueen is not only not OO material, it should be the first set in the analysis, no questions asked. You really should have written that before the defensive set, because I can't even remember the last time I saw a defensive nidoqueen.

Originally Posted by Fat RT.

Nidoqueen is one of those Pokémon that got a whole lot better with the transition to BW2. On this team, it functions as an offensive SR setter and a solid Heracross/Mienshao check. Even now, some people still don’t expect Nidoqueen to be running an offensive set, which usually lets it net a few surprise KO’s. The advantages of using it over Nidoking aren’t limited to its surprise factor, however. The extra bulk is very helpful in taking hits from the various Fighting-types in the tier, and also lets it check Zapdos and Raikou more effectively. In my experience, the drop in speed is hardly noticeable. The 168 Speed EVs gives it a stat of 230, which is enough to outrun Modest Gothitelle and all relevant walls that can tank a hit from Nidoqueen. Stealth Rock and Earth Power are self-explanatory; Fire Blast is useful for crippling Bronzong and ensuring I can OHKO Heracross in a pinch, while Ice Beam nails Flying-types and easily dispatches Flygon if it tries to switch in.

Well there ya go, 2 really good UU players praising Queen over King.

[SJCrew]

Nidoqueen is just as effective at killing things, doesn't die to a light breeze and is a far better check to Heracross & Zapdos, which is kind of a big deal. Which is what I meant by reliable in case you weren't clear. Handwaving? Maybe you're not just not paying attention, but half of the Pokemon you mentioned don't usually run speed.

The only example I used that doesn't run Speed is Gligar, but that was because I was assuming the set on-site with only 52 Speed EVs, thus making it slower than Gligar. 50% of known Suicune spreads were running speed last month, and if Suicune switches in or revenges, you know it's going first (which could also mean it's setting up on Nidoqueen). Togekiss has several speed-carrying sets onsite, so it's definitely viable.

Your calcs prove that they're both worthless at checking Electric-types and can only do anything when switching into Thunderbolt.

Nidoking can outspeed Chandelure, Kingdra and tie with opposing Nidoking. Great, that didn't stop being a thing or anything, those are its best legitimate advantages it has over Nidoqueen. My main point is that you're seriously overstating how good said advantages are.

Incorrect. I am stating that's why they need to be in the same tier. They both have their advantages (for the sake of the argument at least; I'm still wondering if Nidoqueen has anything tangible aside from checking Heracross), but they're ultimately not that different.

That is not in dispute here. She is unmistakably better than Nidoking in UU, like its almost an objective fact. Never did I mention she outclassed Nidoking (as outclassed would imply that Nidoking doesn't really have a niche over Nidoqueen). And it's like i'm pulling this out of my ass either, RT's team (one of the best UU teams mind you) makes better use out of Nidoqueen despite the fact that his team is massively weak Chandelure. What does that tell you? Speaking of good teams / good players, can you think? I've watched a decent chunk of UU open matches (not spoiling teams / players) and I noticed a hell of lot more players using Nidoqueen over Nidoking.

You can argue that Nidoking is A tier but don't try and make your case by simultaneously putting Nidoqueen down, because it won't work. Nidoking is just an example of someone who doesn't really translate that well in battle at all, in the sense of being like his "on paper" sense. On paper, he's one of your best physical damage dealers throughout the course of the game, and a obscene wallbreaker. In battle, he's not quite as good. He's got awesome power, but disappointing speed and even unimpressive bulk.

You don't have any solid evidence to back it up, which is why you keep appealing to popularity. My calculations say that Nidoqueen is pretty terrible at taking most hits too, and once she loses just a little bit of HP, she's pretty much a worse Nidoking. If you use spin support and make smart switch-ins, you can maybe take advantage of some of that bulk, but it's ultimately not that big of a deal.

There ya go, 2 really good UU players praising Queen over King.

Who cares? Sell me with facts. You're not giving me anything to chew on. That bit about checking Flygon was bogus, by the way.

Jolly Scarf Earthquake: 88.4% - 104.6%
Jolly CB Outrage: 79.2% - 93.6%

42% of Flygon were Adamant last month.

[alexwolf]

SJCrew you keep saying that the added bulk does not matter, because the calcs show that both Nidos are OHKOed-2HKOed by the same attacks. You act like the Nidos can't be weakened beforehand, which is almost always the case in general. This is what PK Gaming has been trying to tell you. Nidoqueen is much more reliable at checking the offensive pokes PK mentioned, because it needs to take more damage to be put in OHKO-2HKO range from their attacks, than Nidoking.

Some examples... Nidoking is barely a check to CM Raikou, as shown by PK's calcs, where Queen can actually take one hit from it if she comes in on the revenge kill.

You already admit how much better Queen is at taking on ScarfCross over King, so i won't try to convince you about this. And checking the number 1 set on the number 1 poke on the tier, definitely gives you an immediate advantage over any other poke that doesn't have the same trait.

Or what about offensive Zapdos? Queen can come in after it kills something, take a hit and OHKO back (after SR and LO), or just nuke whatever is coming in.

Just some examples where Queen's bulk matters a lot.

[PK Gaming]

Originally Posted by Fat SJCrew

The only example I used that doesn't run Speed is Gligar, but that was because I was assuming the set on-site with only 52 Speed EVs, thus making it slower than Gligar. 50% of known Suicune spreads were running speed last month, and if Suicune switches in or revenges, you know it's going first (which could also mean it's setting up on Nidoqueen). Togekiss has several speed-carrying sets onsite, so it's definitely viable.

You don't understand what set I'm talking about, and I know that for a fact because if you had, you wouldn't have used those examples. 52 speed Gligar is outsped by the "standard" 156 speed Nidoqueen (or max speed), so I don't quite understand why you brought it up. As for Suicune I can concede to the fact they run max speed, but it's not much of a point in Nidoking's favor when it speed ties with it. According to last months usage stats, only 12% of Togekiss users ran any speed (56), which not only goes proves how uncommon "fast" Togekiss is, but the ones that DID run speed on Togekiss still couldn't outspeed Nidoqueen.

Your calcs prove that they're both worthless at checking Electric-types and can only do anything when switching into Thunderbolt.

No, no, no my calcs prove that Nidoqueen is significantly better at checking Electric-types than Nidoking. There's a huge discrepancy in damage that's clearly evident in the calcs i've posted. You're being downright intransigent here.

Incorrect. I am stating that's why they need to be in the same tier. They both have their advantages (for the sake of the argument at least; I'm still wondering if Nidoqueen has anything tangible aside from checking Heracross), but they're ultimately not that different.

You haven't proven why Nidoking should be in A tier at all. The question here is are his advantages over Nidoqueen substantial to warrant tiering on the same level as Nidoqueen (A tier)? The answer is (imo) no, they are not. I could see Nidoqueen dropping from A tier, but I don't see Nidoking rising to A-tier anytime soon. Even if I did drop Nidoqueen, i'd imagine that she would be on a higher level than Nidoking, so it wouldn't even be complete victory (that's what you want RIGHT).

Hence why I said almost.

You don't have any solid evidence to back it up, which is why you keep appealing to popularity. My calculations say that Nidoqueen is pretty terrible at taking most hits too, and once she loses just a little bit of HP, she's pretty much a worse Nidoking. If you use spin support and make smart switch-ins, you can maybe take advantage of some of that bulk, but it's ultimately not that big of a deal.

Were the Heracross calculations not enough? Heracross is the most important Pokemon in the tier, you've already admitted to this yourself. That alone already secures Nidoqueen a position on most offensive teams, since it's a damn good check to Heracross throughout the match (whereas Nidoking is only useful when healthy.) Nidoqueen is more effective (again) against some of the best Pokemon in UU (Heracross! Zapdos, Raikou, Mienshao). Before you fly off the handle, i'm not saying that Nidoqueen "counters" any of them, but you can actually use Nidoqueen to check these Pokemon which is more than what you can do with Nidoking. Your "calculations" place too much emphasis on LO Raikou (Queen is much better at checking Lefties Raikou for example), no emphasis on Zapdos (that didn't stop being a thing) and a rather silly Rotom-H calc. "lol Nidoqueen is OHKOed by Specs overheat" well no fucking shit. Heracross is OHKOed by switching into Shaymin's Air Slash too!!

Who cares? Sell me with facts. You're not giving me anything to chew on. That bit about checking Flygon was bogus, by the way.

Jolly Scarf Earthquake: 88.4% - 104.6%
Jolly CB Outrage: 79.2% - 93.6%

42% of Flygon were Adamant last month.

ಠ_ಠ

I'm confused, anecdotal evidence from two of the best players in the tiers isn't enough? Posting a team from a top tier player that utilizes Nidoqueen over Nidoking is not enough (A team that would appreciate having Chandelure outsped mind you). Calculations proving that Nidoqueen is more effective against some of the best Pokemon in the tier aren't enough? UU open teams (which I WILL begin to start talking about once its over) aren't enough? Dude this isn't fucking advance wars. Anecdotal evidence (from good players) is powerful in the Pokemon community, it's actually really important. I thought I was being pretty explicit; what more do you want?

[Cesterp]

Not going to be a long post, but I'd like to side with SJCrew here. The issue with Nidoqueen is that all these things she's supposed to be countering- she can't switch in to them more than once. All these scenarios are using her as a revenge killer when she has 100% health against offensive threats- which she SHOULD be used as. However, Nidoking is NOT a wall or bulky offensive poke that will live a hit and destroy an offensive threat. Nidoking is used as a wallbreaker- it kills Bronzong, Blastoise, Hitmontop switching in, 2HKO's Cofag even at +1 after rocks, and it nearly impossible to switch in to.

I'm seeing the arguing here as a comparison between something like Mesprit and Uxie- sure, they're the same type, have the same (or nearly the same) movepool, but you're saying Mesprit isn't as good as Uxie because it can't live as many hits. Of course not, you're using Mesprit because you want more of an offensive presence and don't necessarily need the ability to tank as many hits.

Also, I'd like to point out that ALL these scenarios where we're mentioning just how bulky Queen is and just how lame King is at tanking things are considering they're switching in at full health. As soon as Queen switches into one hit from anything with a half decent attack stat, she's taking some damage. And as soon as she takes ~25% damage, she becomes a Nidoking at full health minus the extra firepower and speed. Even Bronzong can wreck her chances of switching into fighting types by just EQ'ing. And a lot of the other calcs shown where Queen lives by the skin of her teeth and King dies because the attack did 107% are kind of silly. Yeah, King is always going to die, but when Queen takes that 86%, she's just death fodder at that point- can't outspeed anything with any offensive presence, and two more switches are death to her, anyway.

To be specific- I believe there was something like an 18% differential when it came to tanking a +1 Raikou's HP Ice. What happens if your Nidoqueen has to be used at any point over the course of the entire battle to take a single hit because you're using it on your team as more of a defensive/bulky thing? Yeah, it dies. Not to mention that dealing with +1 Raikou means it has had time to set up, and might have a sub/set up another calm mind as you switch. Whoops, now it's a +2 Raikou and you die, anyway. I don't think that's what is considered "significantly better at checking electric types".
EDIT: I looked into it. Your Nidoqueen switches in to a +1 Raikou, that Raikou doesn't care and sets up another CM. You launch an Earth Power. 55% damage. Then lefties/sweeping at +2. If your opponent is greedy, then that Raikou Calm Minds again because it doesn't care. 45% damage. Then lefties. And now your team has to face a base 115 speed sweeper at +3 SpAtk and SpDef. Nidoking stops that greedy opponent dead in their tracks. It's also a lot easier to take down a Raikou at 35% health than a Raikou at 50% health with priority moves.

As a wallbreaker/attacker with awesome coverage/shell smash recipient, Nidoking is by far the better choice, and probably the best in the tier as far as that role goes.

I'm not saying Nidoking is by far better than Queen or that he's even much better than her- I'm saying he's A tier at least. Slowbro is a wall that's supposed to take on fighting types but still loses to Heracross a lot of the time and takes a hefty chunk when dealing with Mienshao (bug type attacks say hi). Wait, it's supposed to counter the same mons Queen does, but it does a worse job? Must be B rank. Wait, but that doesn't make sense! King has the best coverage, the most power, and the ability to just put out massive amounts of damage every battle when given the right opportunities. Queen has different opportunities that sometimes leave her hurt- King comes in when it's safe and does more damage.

[Ernesto]

To be fair, I believe that Raikou scenario was meant for revenge killing a +1 Raikou, since otherwise by switching into HP Ice with any of the Nidos means that you have high chances of being swept by it. The other option is, of course, they switched while it CM'd up on the predicted T-bolt/Volt Switch. In both given scenarios, Nidoqueen fares much better since she survives every time after SR, while the King takes it a bit further. The point they're trying to make is, even if both can switch into things, Nidoqueen's bulk actually allows her to switch more and threaten the opponent...

My dear Slowbro is being attacked

---

What you said about Slowbro, while it's true that it can't switch into Megahorn, it also doesn't die to it and can switch back out to recover a third of its HP. And Bug-type coverage... please!
LO Mienshao's U-turn: 132-156 (33.58 - 39.69%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
CB Victini's U-turn: 144-170 (36.64 - 43.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
LO Darmanitan's U-turn: 144-170 (36.64 - 43.25%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
So it switches in on the U-Turn and takes a little over a third of its HP, we'll assume around 42% after SR and Lefties. Just by switching out, it's recovering 33%, so it effectively took only 9% damage! Of course, one may argue that Victini can use Fusion Bolt, right?
CB Victini's Fusion Bolt: 204-240 (51.9 - 61.06%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Around 55%, let's say 62 after SR and Lefties. Of course, it's a 2HKO, but Slowbro will just switch out (and can recover more health later on, believe me it's happened). Still, good luck trying to sweep with an unSTABed Electric-type move...

Slowbro is amazing because it not only counters things like LO Arcanine, LO and Scarf Darmanitan and CB and Scarf Victini, LO and Scarf Mienshao, CB Crobat, Machamp (lol), among others, but it also relieves unwanted damage from mispredictions as if it was nothing... It's no wonder why it's A tier when the arguably best defensive counter to the King of OU is ranked C, it can afford to switch into things you didn't want it to...

[senegal]

While I guess I'm not surprised to see him so low, I think Registeel deserves a C rank. It shuts down all Raikou between Thunder Wave and Earthquake (providing they arent Volt Switching) Can switch into offensive Zapdos, paralyze it, and get SR up before it kills you, or break defensive ones subs and play the prediction game to get status on. Really only fears repeated Hydro Pumps from Kingdra, as you can break its subs and paralyze setup versions. While youre unlikely to beat Togekiss, Roserade or Shaymin 1-on-1, he can easily paralyze and force them out (yes I know they have natural cure but it still steals the current momentum away.) Also a near perfect switch in to Yanmega, which is pretty rare

Walling one-dimensional attackers isn't amazing, but he does it well and the ones he cant beat by himself are often severely crippled by TWave; indeed this is often his most threatening quality. Maybe I just have a lingering fondness for him from DPP UU, but I never regret using him on my teams. His ability to set up rocks, spread status and counter/check so many special threats all at once can make for an invaluable support mon. One worth of a higher ranking than D imo. Interested in hearing arguments against this!

[SJCrew]

You don't understand what set I'm talking about, and I know that for a fact because if you had, you wouldn't have used those examples. 52 speed Gligar is outsped by the "standard" 156 speed Nidoqueen (or max speed), so I don't quite understand why you brought it up. As for Suicune I can concede to the fact they run max speed, but it's not much of a point in Nidoking's favor when it speed ties with it. According to last months usage stats, only 12% of Togekiss users ran any speed (56), which not only goes proves how uncommon "fast" Togekiss is, but the ones that DID run speed on Togekiss still couldn't outspeed Nidoqueen.

PK, you're not getting it. The one uploaded to the site, the offensive Nidoqueen that's supposed to be 'standard' runs 52 Speed EVs. That's the set Flare made and recommended to the guy writing the analysis, and thus, I used it in my examples until you mentioned the 100 HP one (which I'm assuming is going to be somewhere in the update...?). We've been discussing 100 HP every time after that, which is why I mentioned Nidoqueen being KOed by LO Raikou after rocks.

About Suicune, Bold and Modest make up 80% of all Suicune. From recollection, I've lost one Speed tie to a Suicune before, but that was a long while ago. Timid is still rare enough to count on Nidoking beating it when it comes in. This is the same thing we discovered with Kingdra; he's another base 85, but he's always running +offense natures to aid his wallbreaking power (Timid Specs Draco Meteor can't even OHKO a full-health Slowbro, for example). Heracross doesn't need the help, so he's more likely to run Jolly to have a chance at beating Nidoking and not run the risk of losing to Chandelure.

To be honest, if Nidoking didn't exist, nothing in his speed tier would have to run +Speed natures. It's cited in the analyses that list +speed as primary or secondary options that Nidoking is one of the major incentives to use it (alongside Heracross, of course), so other players realize the threat of losing to Nidoking even if you don't.

Speed is the one thing Nidoking can use no matter what health he's at which, outside of allowing him to tie with or beat several common Pokemon that Nidoqueen can't, opens up other possibilities such as Choice Scarf, SmashPass, and QuiverPassing. I mean, I get it: relying on speed ties to win is a bad thing in cases where applicable, but in my eyes, the guaranteed loss is worse. Worse than the heartbeat of not knowing whether or not you'll go first.

You also exaggerate his lack of bulk to say that he dies to a 'light tap'. If taking a +2 CC from Heracross isn't good enough for you, then your standards are pretty unrealistic.

No, no, no my calcs prove that Nidoqueen is significantly better at checking Electric-types than Nidoking. There's a huge discrepancy in damage that's clearly evident in the calcs i've posted. You're being downright intransigent here.

Taking a guess and coming in on Tbolt to hit Zapdos with Ice Beam is not really my ideal check, especially when Pokemon such as Raikou don't have to guess to come out on top. When he uses CM, they both lose no matter what. In a real match, it's not going to matter whether Nidoqueen takes the HP Ice ~15-20% better than Nidoking. The problem is that switching her in is always a big risk and cuts away almost all of her utility as a check. If she gets ~30% of her health taken away by switching into Scarf Heracross for example, she is no longer a Zapdos check.

LO Mienshao destroys Nidoqueen with HJK: 43.4% - 51.2%
SD Mienshao destroys Nidoqueen with HJK: 86.7% - 102%

That's my problem with this whole Nidoking/Nidoqueen debacle: the only point you're making that really matters or stands up in practice is Nidoqueen being a better check to Scarf Heracross. And that is a big deal, which we've both acknowledged several times by now. So why is it so hard to admit that the advantages of using Nidoking are also important...? I've used him since the beginning of BW, back when he got his shit ruined by Psychic types that used to be far more common and he was still ridiculously effective. He does beat Kingdra, Heracross, and Suicune almost all of the time. I've seen Togekiss running speed, I've run Togekiss with speed (mostly to avoid underrated threats like Honchkrow spamming BRAVE BIRD on your slow ass). Once again Nidoqueen's only role back then was setting up rocks. What's changed now? Moxie Heracross.

And that's the only thing that's really changed for Nidoqueen. If anything were to happen with Heracross (a ban, for instance), I'm betting she'd lose her one big niche and remain solidly RU. If the usage stats are to be believed, she's probably not leaving her domain any time soon anyway. Come down to Earth PK: this is Nidoking's tier, always has been, and he's only giving his wifey permission to live in it.

EDIT: Yeah, honestly, I've never thought Registeel was that bad. He's not that easy to switch into or set up on without being crippled, and mildly annoying to take out. Granted, Bronzong is usually the better choice, but that's why he's in a higher tier. Way higher defenses, Thunder Wave, and Seismic Toss craft him a role of his own.

[alexwolf]

Just sayin' the standard Nidoqueen is the one PK mentioned: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472508

[RT.]

I'd like to propose that Zapdos be moved down to A Rank and Cofagrigus be moved up to S Rank. I'm 100% behind Raikou being in S Rank, but Zapdos lacks many of the qualities that make Raikou so good, those being a boosting move, a high Speed stat, and lack of a Stealth Rock vulnerability. Zapdos requires a lot of support to actually pull off a sweep, and its most effective sets are all strictly offensive, so I don't see how it fits the description of a S Rank Pokemon. On the other hand, Cofagrigus offers team support with Trick Room, hard counters Heracross and Mienshao, (among many others) and is able to sweep with very little support. In addition to all of this, it is a fantastic answer to the Rain Offense teams which are popping up all over the ladder now, since they rely on fast, frail sweepers, most of whom are OHKOed by +2 Shadow Ball. In terms of versatility, the amount of roles Cofagrigus can fill on a team with it's one set make it the most versatile out of all the S Rank Pokemon.

[TPO3]

Heck I'll debate that. I'll probably look like a noob but whatever.

I think Zapdos deserves the S-rank it has for a few reasons. First off, it's extremely versatile. Zapdos is probably the most versatile pokemon in the UU tier after Mew. You say that its most effective sets are strictly offensive, but this isn't necessarily true. Its physically defensive set actually makes it a great switch-in to common physical attackers, including but not limited to Heracross, Flygon, Hitmontop, Ambipom (lol), Mienshao, and Crobat, all of whom were in the top 20 of usage last month. Jolly Heracross's Stone Edge does 45.43-53.75%. Even after Stealth Rock damage, that's only a 2HKO. Barring Crits, if played properly, physically defensive Zapdos can potentially PP stall Heracross out of Stone Edges. If you manage to rapid spin properly, Stone Edge is only going to be a 3HKO unless you get 2 max calcs that both manage to hit.

Subroost Zapdos is potentially the most annoying pokemon in the tier. It PP stalls every low PP move on any pokemon that's slower than base 100, and just roosts off any damage it takes. Another thing I'd like to point out, Zapdos is potentially a more reliable offensive Electric-type to use on your team because of access to Roost. Raikou has no way to heal itself, and is also vulnerable to all forms of hazards.

Finally, Zapdos has coverage options Raikou can't afford to run. Thunderbolt/Discharge is obvious on any Zapdos, but for remaining moves, you have to quess between HP Grass, HP Ice, Heat Wave, HP Flying, Toxic, and Roar. You can make an educated guess from the style of team you see in Team Preview, but you don't actually know what it's going to do. You might switch in Flygon only to catch a HP Ice for the KO. Or it could just be there to rack up hazard damage with Roar. I think Zapdos's coverage, and sheer versatility of possible sets should keep it up in the S tier.

I am all for Cofagrigus being moved up, however. Its offensive presence is great and its defensive bulk is massive. If you want to get a foresight in to spin on it, you're forced to either eat a toxic, or potentially let it set up Nasty Plot or Trick Room. I think it definitely deserves to be moved up to S tier.

[voidzone]

Originally Posted by Fat Cesterp

I'm also going to suggest Sceptile at least show up. It stops fighting types from switching in and will kill them if they try (Flying Gem Acrobatics says hi), and has the potential to break through some walls in the tier (Slowbro, all 4 possible spinners, Swampert, other various less notable stuff). Sceptile can be deadly if it gets an SD off or activates Unburden with Acrobatics, but it also has some major flaws, such as failing to do anything to Bronzong. Sceptile outspeeds everything unboosted in the game after Unburden (except something like scarfed Deo-S and scarfed Ninjask, because both are totally viable), and even most boosted things. As said, it doesn't like most walls that occupy UU, and works better as a killer of all things offensive. I'm suggesting B, as it effectively is a Crobat that possesses the ability to always kill bulky waters and also take out all of the spinners (ignoring the fact that Blastoise fits into both of these groups), which I think is a significant enough niche for it to fit in to. Partially outclassed? Check. Still very dangerous? Check.

Unburden users. Yay.

I think this has been overlooked, in the heat of the Nido discussion. Unburden Sceptile is in fact a powerful force, that has quite its uses in UU, as stated above. Its major flaw is IMO that it can't switch out for good, so it has a rather limited role as late game cleaner, or at least needs some team support to remove things like Zapdos, Rotom-H, Cofragrigus or Bronzong beforehand, which could stop it in its tracks. Okay - it can get past Cofragigus by itself, but becoming mummy in that process is really bad. But other than that SD Unburden Sceptile is a monster.

[PK Gaming]

Quick update!

UU
Changes:

Moved Crobat down from S tier ==> A tier
Moved Cofagrigus up from A tier ==> S tier
Moved PorygonZ up from C tier ==> B tier

Potential Changes:

Moving Porygon2 up from B tier == > A tier
Moving Weavile up from B tier ==> A tier

--

RU
Changes:

Added Sceptile to C tier
Added Liligant to B tier
Added Venomoth to B tier

[kokoloko*]

I completely disagree with a few of these last changes.

For one, Crobat is definitely S-tier material; refer to this post for my reasoning. Cofagrigus, while great, is not S-tier material. Why? It's one of those Pokemon that performs excellently against the average ladder player, but not nearly as well against one of a higher caliber (it's not easy doing a two-turn setup). In fact, I don't even think it's A-tier material--high B-tier definitely; A-tier is kinda questionable imo, but I don't feel too strongly about it.

(Why did you move it down anyway? No one's even debated it being S-tier)

Weavile and Porygon2 should stay in B and Zapdos should move down to A.

As for the whole Nidoqueen vs Nidoking debacle: neither one is A-tier worthy imo. Nidoqueen is high B-tier and Nidoking is low B-tier.

[DestinyUnknown]

If Sceptile is added to the list, I believe Lilligant (and arguably, Venomoth) should be included on the list. I have used Lilligant a few times in the past and I definitely think it's a solid high-C, or even a B (as the only thing preventing it from getting more usage are that Roserade and Shaymin are fierce competitors for a spot on teams ). Lilligant can easily set up thanks to Sleep Powder, and it's pretty difficult to stop because it hits ridiculously hard after a boost.

As for Venomoth, it can both fulfill the role of a supporter and a sweeper one, and I think it's on par with most C pokemon.

[PK Gaming]

It would appear that my hasty tier shifts were a bad idea, so i'm going to revert some of my changes (for now anyway). Also going to address the Nidoqueen vs Nidoking whenever I get back.

Definitely going to add Liligant + Venomoth though.

[DestinyUnknown]

Yeah I guess we should discuss a bit more on some controversial pokemon before changing their tier. On the Nidoqueen-Nidoking argument, I agree with kokoloko that they should be on the same tier, B. Even if Nidoqueen is better at checking Heracross and has a slightly better bulk, which honestly isn't that much, and I'm sure that anybody that has used Nidoqueen can attest it dies relatively quickly. While Nidoqueen is a bit better on UU than Nidoking currently, the difference is little, and Nidoqueen isn't good enough to be an ''A'' tier pokemon anyway. So I would say they're both B. Take into account that obviously all the pokemon in each tier aren't equally good, as there will always be pokemon that are slightly better than others, and doing a more ''exact'' tier / ranking system isn't worth.

As for Cofagrigus, I think RT. has a point on making it S tier. Cofagrigus is just one of the most useful pokemon on the tier right now, because it can block Rapid Spin (it's probably the best overall spinblocker atm), check a large portion of the metagame (it can act as a check to stuff like Dragon Dance Kingdra, Heracross, Flygon, Mienshao, Crobat, Cobalion and many more), and it's pretty difficult to set up on it due to Trick Room. Furthermore, Cofagrigus isn't just a defensive pokemon, as it can perform an offensive role at the same time, and it's definitely one of the most threatening sweepers in UU, even if it has the downside of needing 2 turns to set up. Cofagrigus it's also ridiculously easy to fit on any team, because it fills 2 important roles on just 1 slot, and doesn't really need much support to work. I can see kokoloko's point of view though I think that Cofagrigus is a solid A tier at least.

[NATdude]

I think rotom-h should be moved up to B rank. It's stab is nearly unresisted and with HP grass he hits even more of UU for super effective damage. Combine that with supportive moves like will-o-wisp and you have a deadly Pokemon. He's still weak to stealth rock and special walls like porygon-2, umbreon, and snorlax wall him, but he can still burn huge holes into teams.

Currently, Crobat is both A and S ranked. I'm sure it's a typo, but with that in mind, I think Crobat should be A ranked. While it is a great Pokemon and extremely versatile, I think it's weakness to stealth rock and lack of usable attacking moves makes him A.

Cofagrigus, however, should be S ranked. He walls a good number of Pokemon like heracross and can set-up on even more. Trick room/NP is extremely deadly. It alone can sweep teams lacking toxic or a healthy special wall. His supportive set is great too. Crippling physical attackers and walls with will-o-wisp and healing off damage with pain split. An S rank poke for sure.

Some other Pokemon that should shift tiers:
Machamp B---->A
Dynamic punch hits like a truck and the confusion hax can lead to a huge disadvantage.

Weavile B---->A
CB and life orb sets can wreck teams that lack a good check to weavile. Pursuit kills all the ghosts in the tiers and ice shard is a great overall stab move. Low kick, night slash, and ice punch are all great moves to add to weavile's arsenal. If unprepared and with hazards down, weavile can take down whole teams.

Froslass A---->B
Outside of spikes, this thing isn't very good. It's extremely frail and weak to stealth rock. While it can get two layers down, it's usage for the rest of the match is pretty much useless outside of death fodder.

Finally, moving colbalion and empoleon to A might be a good idea. Both of them hit like a truck and can take hits in return.

[Cesterp]

Originally Posted by Fat NATdude

Cofagrigus, however, should be S ranked. He walls a good number of Pokemon like heracross and can set-up on even more. Trick room/NP is extremely deadly. It alone can sweep teams lacking toxic or a healthy special wall. His supportive set is great too. Crippling physical attackers and walls with will-o-wisp and healing off damage with pain split. An S rank poke for sure.

Some other Pokemon that should shift tiers:
Machamp B---->A
Dynamic punch hits like a truck and the confusion hax can lead to a huge disadvantage.

Weavile B---->A
CB and life orb sets can wreck teams that lack a good check to weavile. Pursuit kills all the ghosts in the tiers and ice shard is a great overall stab move. Low kick, night slash, and ice punch are all great moves to add to weavile's arsenal. If unprepared and with hazards down, weavile can take down whole teams.

Finally, moving colbalion and empoleon to A might be a good idea. Both of them hit like a truck and can take hits in return.

Agree with Rotom, Crobat, and Frosslass, disagree with everything else. That's why I cut out certain sections of the quote, in case anyone was wondering.

Cofag isn't S, it requires support to work perfectly and isn't able to take on entire teams that lack a surefire counter (look at the other S ranks, if you're not completely prepared for them, you're going to lose). The fact that it's a wall/bulky attacker means that it's going to be worn down by anything faster, and if you're really going to Calm Mind + Trick Room, it's unlikely you'll find enough time to set up for a real dominating sweep without some really awesome support from a team. It still loses to Yanmega, Sharpedo, Shaymin, Heracross w/Night Slash, Weavile, SubCM Raikou, 80% of Kingdra variants, Snorlax, and various other thingies. Yes, it's really good, but it's not QUITE good enough to be S.

Machamp is slow. It's also not bulky enough to make up for it being slow. Yes, DynamicPunch hits like a truck and confusion is fun, but it requires switching in on something that can't do anything to it on top of the opponent not having a ghost. Plus, if your opponent IS switching, they're probably switching to a counter, and you really don't want to hedge your bets on that 50% of if that Brave Bird/Air Slash/Extrasensory/etc. will actually land.

Weavile simply doesn't have the movepool or bulk to be good enough. Yes, its base stats are amazing and it's a great choice for a team that needs a speedy attacker to clean up. No, it can't hit as hard as you'd think. If you really want to be doing some damage, you've got to have SD, and 95% of the time that requires sacrificing something/a well timed u-turn, not to mention your opponent having something out that can't hurt Weavile (mons that can't hurt Weavile being few and far between).

Also, Cobalion and Empoleon also suffer from not quite as good as you think disorder. Yeah, Cobalion is decent at doing a lot of things. But Cobalion isn't really good at anything in particular- being weak to fighting, fire, and ground just does not help it be a wall, and base 90 attack stats don't help it be an attacker. Empoleon is too slow and exists in a tier full of fighting types that can OHKO it. It requires careful switching, careful playing, and good support from a team to really pose a large threat. I love Empoleon, I haven't yet built a very successful team without it, but it's not quite good enough to be A.

Also, uh, your last 3 suggestions all lose to Heracross and Mienshao. Losing to both Heracross and Mienshao is not a good thing ever.

[/B/utterfree]

1. Why is Blastoise not A Rank? It's the best RapidSpinner in UU and is often a key player in a lot of teams. Blastoise's indifference to a lot of spinblockers is present in its stellar movepool, which can Scald or Toxic a lot of the Ghosts in the tier without so much as a care.

Blastoise is really only scared of Roserade in terms of hazard setters/Pokes, and a lot of Pokemon are scared of Roserade in general.

2. Why is Ambipom not in E Rank? I tried using this in early Gen V UU (back when I tried to use Gen IV Pokes in the tiers they were in originally) with predictably disastrous results. Weavile and Mienshao are both infinitely better at revengekilling and hit-and-run, respectively. Most teams almost always have an Ambipom counter, too; to do so is not hard at all.

Ambipom's uselessness in UU is also a common topic among many discussion groups, moreso than Dusclops. What makes it good enough to be in C Rank, pray tell?

[JacobNinja]

Ditto is an incredible revenge killer, able to shut down almost every choice or life orb user weak to itself, which is a surprisingly large group, and also is able to use the hidden power of its on things like raiku which don't naturally counter themselves.

Ditto is this good because of its ability to switch in and instantly transform, and steal stat boosts too. Having trouble with a +6 speed yanmega? get ditto in, and it can outspeed thanks to a choice scarf and counter yanmega with air slash. Dragon Dance kingdra wrecking your team? switch in ditto, and make use of your +1 atk/speed to outspeed kingdra with scarf and then ravage your opponent.

tl;dr Ditto is the god of revenge killing, certainly A tier, if not S tier. While it technically isn't in UU, due to its particular play style it is exactly as powerful as the tier it is in (it has its place in ubers too) so I think it should qualify for a UU ranking.

[Cesterp]

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

2. Why is Ambipom not in E Rank? I tried using this in early Gen V UU (back when I tried to use Gen IV Pokes in the tiers they were in originally) with predictably disastrous results. Weavile and Mienshao are both infinitely better at revengekilling and hit-and-run, respectively. Most teams almost always have an Ambipom counter, too; to do so is not hard at all.

Ambipom's uselessness in UU is also a common topic among many discussion groups, moreso than Dusclops. What makes it good enough to be in C Rank, pray tell?

Ambipom isn't THAT bad. Being able to switch in, slap something with a STAB Life Orb Technician +3 Priority Move, not take any damage, and switch out to live another day is a somewhat nice thing. If your team lacks phazing, Ambipom can do a half decent job at killing set-up sweepers. It can also kill a lot of common and frail scarfers (kills Flygon after some chip damage, just for a common example- Mienshao and Weavile both don't exactly like tanking Outrage/Earthquake/U-Turn). It's not like it's so bad that it just deserves to die in a well. It's good, there's just better alternatives. A lot of the hate directed to it is simply because far superior choices exist (unless for whatever reason your team NEEDS the most powerful Fake Out). C rank is something like- "This pokemon can be effective given the right support. It either has crippling flaws or is severely outclassed." D is that the Pokemon isn't effective. E is that it literally can do nothing. I don't see Ambipom doing nothing in any battle ever. It's always Fake Out'ing some threat that might cause problems, and can really rack up some damage when facing hyper offense. Sending it to the E rank would just be out of spite, not because it's legitimately the most terrible thing ever.