Embirch and Flarelm - Part 2 - Typing Discussion

[DHR-107]

This is the stage where we discuss the typing of Embirch and Flarelm. Please remember, Pyroak (The end stage of this Pokémon) is Fire/Grass. We must keep this in mind whilst we are discussing the typings that are suggested. I will be following what Birkal did with Syclar and mandating: We are only allowed to change ONE type at maximum. Also; if there are any really silly suggestions (Water or Ghost or something) I will remove them from the thread. I’ve got a few ideas which I will place below for both Embirch and Flarelm and depending on arguments for the types they will be slated.

I will split the voting section of this stage into two polls (One for Embirch and one for Flarelm), they will run parallel to each other and will only be open for 24 hours.

Embirch & Flarelm–
Fire/Grass – The Pyroak way of doing things. This keeps the exact same typing and will be a guaranteed slate for both of the polls.
Grass – Already suggested in the previous thread. This is more likely for Embirch than Flarelm in my eyes. I don’t have a problem with Grass -> Fire/Grass if that is what people want.
Fire – A little unorthodox but I could see this happening depending on flavour arguments for it. The fact that Pyroak is Fire/Grass (IE Fire first) affects this more than most so from a pure mechanics stand point that should be the way to go.

If you can convince me of anything else, go for it. I’m open to other suggestions as long as they are sensible. This thread will be open for about 24 hours.

What we have so far:

Names: Embirch and Flarelm
Type: ??? & ???

Sprites:

&

[bugmaniacbob]

Embirch - Ember + Birch
Flarelm - Flare + Elm

Seriously guys it makes no sense to not make both of these Fire / Grass.

Not to mention the ARM CANNONS.

/end subjective reasoning.

[Bull of Heaven]

Subjective or not, I have to agree with BMB on both points. Of course none of these things can "prove" that one particular typing belongs, but considering the order of Pyroak's typing, the names and the arm cannons, it seems obvious to me that both of these should be Fire/Grass.

Also, to any arguments that come up about Embirch not looking enough like a Fire-type: I've never understood the fascination in CAP with every typing being visually obvious. Sure, Pokemon of particular types tend to look similar, but there's no need to be constrained by patterns that even official Pokemon don't always follow. If you do want to approach it that way, though, I would say Embirch's colouring can kind of suggest Fire, plus there are the cannons.

[srk1214]

I made the identical point to bmb in the last thread. Honestly, any other option is idiotic. And that's objetive truth. :p

[Espeon65]

I believe arguments can be made for Fire/Grass and Grass. I think Fire is just absurd; Embirch is so obviously Grass type. Here are the arguments that I am having with myself:

Fire/Grass is definitely viable, as Embirch = Ember + Birch. Also, it would be the only way to not change the primary typing. Also, the arm cannon thing.

Grass is viable as well, imo. Only for Embrich, however; Flarelm looks very Fire/Grass to me. I know it changes the primary typing, but I believe that Embirch looks way too grassy. Also, an argument could be made about the arm cannons; they could be thick branches or something.

So, I am pulling for Embirch to be Grass, and Flarelm to be Fire/Grass. Go ahead, argue with me; I believe that since this part of the CAP process is mostly flavor, we should go with whatever makes the most sense visually, or whatever we think is "cool".

[Eagle4]

BmB, you make a valid point. However, the name of a pokemon does not always reflect its typing, For instance:

Gastly (Gas + Ghastly) Gastly is a ghost pokemon, yet gas shows poison as well.

Dragonair (Dragon + Air) Pretty self-explanatory really, Dragonair is a mono-Dragon type yet air implies flying type.

Mudkip (Mud + Skip/ Mudskipper) Yup, mud implies Grond, yet Mudkip is just Water-typed.

There are many more, but I believe I've got my point across. Anyways, your second point is arguably invalid. So what if its got cannons? They hardly look developed. As said earlier in the last discussion, a fire attack from those cannons could backfire on Embirch.

Therefore, I propose Embirch as a Grass Type. Nothing else.

[Bull of Heaven]

Gastly is Ghost/Poison, and Gas need not imply Poison anyway. Otherwise that's not a bad point.

Question for pure Grass supporters: Does Embirch look any less like a Fire-type than Houndour?

Edit: Just saw the point about Embirch's Fire attacks "backfiring". That could just as easily happen to Pyroak, but we accept it as a Fire-type. Also, if Embirch were given the Fire type, there would be flavourful ways of dealing with this later. For example, there's precedent for first-stage Pokemon hurting themselves with their attacks; off the top of my head, see Pichu's Dex entries.

I think that looking at Embirch alone this could go either way, so the order of Pyroak's types is the tiebreaker for me.

[Eagle4]

Sure, Houndour doesn't look like a fire pokemon, and I disagree with Gamefreak making that decision. However, instead of doing, in my opinion, more wrong to copy Gamefreak, we should choose what typing the pokemon looks like, to not join Gamefreak's controversial ways.

And oops, I'm tired, I forgot Gastly is also Poison. At least my point has still got across.

[CBMeadow]

Keep in mind when reading the following that I understand and indeed would be more than fine with Embirch being a Fire/Grass Pokemon as well as I would a plain Grass. As I understand it, those arguments are the similarities with the Lotad line and the name etymologies of the Pokemon, as well as fairly consistent elements of Embirch with its later line (e.g. the cannons) and the fact Pyroak is Fire/Grass, not Grass/Fire. There is probably more I did not mention, but those are the basics. I suppose you might say this whole thing is to illustrate potential arguments in favour of plain Grass- I like it a little more, and it is, or seems to be, the less popular opinion, so I feel it needs to be explained moreso.

Also, this may be crazily in detail for a flavour-related post. Knowing me it might get way too far into semantics too, but every argument's an argument, I guess.

'Pyro-', meaning 'fire / heat / high temperature' or 'Pyre', meaning a heap of combustible material, both imply very large flames, or at least sizable ones. 'Flare' has a few more definitions, such as flickering flame or a sudden surge of flame. With the former definition, it illustrates that it is not as large or strong a flame as Pyroak's; with the latter, it illustrates a sudden uprising of fire, or, perhaps, the sudden uprising of Fire typing.

'Ember', by contrast, is a very small burning coal. It could be perceived as distinctive of the Fire typing, but it could also be interpreted as the beginnings of that typing - the implications of it - since an ember is not actually a fire, only its remains (or in this case, its beginnings). To me, Embirch looks too young to have really mastered fire, knowing nothing more than its namesake and having to wait to use its Fire-type potential properly. As I mentioned in Overview, the arm cannons could be bamboo or some other kind of plant growth not yet adjusted enough to expel Fire attacks of any worth. By Flarelm's time, those cannons look tougher and more ready to manipulate fire, and the Pokemon wears armour on its face to protect from the heat.

Additionally, if they don't have flames or lava directly on them, and aren't of a starter line, most Fire-types look somewhat threatening. There are several exceptions, of course- Magby and Magmar, Flareon (though its fur is somewhat fire-reminiscent), and Numel come to mind- but in general Fire types tend to look somewhat intimidating. Pyroak and Flarelm are equipped with armour and a battle-ready body, while Embirch looks more fragile. (The sprite looks a little more battle-oriented to me, but the original artwork does not.)

As far as Pokemon whose appearance does not fit their typing- Houndour has red contour and looks intimidating somewhat. It doesn't scream Fire, but it makes sense for it to be- and really, Houndoom doesn't actually look a LOT more Fire-type. More, yes, due to the silver body ringthings suggesting "hellhound", but most of its Fire-type comes from its Pokedex entries and its moveset. Embirch does not actually look very Fire-type. There is no real orange or red contour anywhere- there is tan contour, but that can be a plant-growth colour, and as mentioned, the cannons don't look developed enough to support much flame. If it did not have the arm cannons, it wouldn't look as instantly recognizable as being of the same line- I perceive them as being markings of that particular line, rather than strictly of Fire-typing.

TL;DR: I see Embirch as learning the art of fire without being actually practiced enough to be a Fire-type, implied by its comparatively docile appearance, lack of 'Fire-type' contour, and underdeveloped arm cannons.

Again, though, I completely see the possibility of Fire/Grass, and would not start any sort of riot over it if it were chosen.

[ChrisTehAwesome]

I like embirch as a grass type only because his cannons look underdeveloped. Sort of similar to how bagon learns to fly because he wants to, Embirch's hot temper could manifest itself when it evolves.

Could make for a nice dex entry too. Although fire/grass would work better with the name.

[Delta Nite]

I can't see Embirch as a pure Fire type, and since No Pokémon switches primary and secondary type upon evolving, and considering this project is all about flavor, therefore I can't really consider pure Grass an option. It just doesn't has any precedent.

[Deck Knight]

We really shouldn't be over-analyzing this. Yes, Embirches cannons look less developed. Of course they do, it's an adolescent form of Pyroak. There are however several Pokemon that explicitly state they are not good at using their elemental powers, yet they still have them.

Pichu is a good example:

Diamond: The electric pouches on its cheeks are still small. They cannot store much electricity yet.

Heart Gold: It is not yet skilled at storing electricity. It may send out a jolt if amused or startled.

Darumaka in Gen V:

Black: When its internal fire is burning, it cannot calm down and it runs around. When the fire diminishes, it falls asleep.

And Psyduck of course:

Pearl: Overwhelmed by enigmatic abilities, it suffers a constant headache. It sometimes uses mysterious powers.

Heart Gold: It has mystical powers but doesn’t recall that it has used them. That is why it always looks puzzled.

Now Psyduck and Golduck aren't Psychic types ever, yet still their dex entries heavily imply the species have an incomplete control over their own potential.

So yeah, keep it as Fire/Grass. You can still do cutesy things like "can't control its power well."

[Howzers]

Not to mention that Embirch, aside from its tail leaf and "skirt", is notably coloured red, which is enough indication of a Fire typing for most unevolved Fire Pokemon. Vulpix, Torchic etc.

[Eagle4]

The animal Embirch is based on is a Salamander, which are commonly found as red:

...

---

Meanwhile, chickens are brown or beige, and chicks are yellow or pale yellow, so the red is used to indicate fire typing. I feel Vulpix is a fire-type because there is no other alternative; if Ninetales is a mono-fire, than Vulpix should be as well. With this situation, you have the alternative of choosing Mono-Grass type, as there is that option.

As Salamanders are already red, the colour of Embirch's body isn't to show fire-typing, but to keep true to the Salamander aspect.

Also, DHR-107, can I suggest to take off Mono-Fire option.

This is because I feel/know that this option isn't going to win in the poll, so we have a larger amount of people voting for the two prominent and viable options, Fire/Grass, and Grass.

@Deck Night: I feel Embirch is different. It's not just that it can't store that much flames, it's that it looks like it will self-combust if ever it uses those cannons.

Anyway: Mono Grass is the way to go!

[CBMeadow]

Hmm, it's not really RED, it's a kind of a reddish-brown in the sprite and a paleish, vaguely red-hinting brown in the artwork.

Anyway though yes I probably did go a little too far into analysis, but it was to illustrate the possible points one could make. The biggest issue with mono-Grass, I think, is the lack of flavour precedent of the typings being reversed as Delta Nite and others have mentioned before. This is the main thing preventing me from being a more confident advocate of the typing, and there doesn't seem to be a way around it short of flipping Pyroak's types (unlikely).

As for Pichu/Darumaka/Psyduck... Pichu wouldn't fit as any other typing, really, though I suppose one might make a case for Normal. It can still use Thunderbolt and Thunder/Volt Tackle, though, and while I'm not positive on whether everyone agrees, I don't think people want Flamethrower or especially Fire Blast/Flare Blitz on Embirch (do correct me if I'm wrong), so it isn't as controlled with its implied element. Darumaka can't master the fire enough to be calm to wield it, yes, but it has enough fire to drive it nuts in the first place (and again wouldn't really fit another typing too well). Psyduck, no argument, save this tangent: it does have Psy- in the name when not Psychic-type, so Ember for Embirch can potentially have precedent.

As for Fire/Grass:

The Pyroak typing is as I said the most prevalent issue in my mind, and I could definitely make a case for Fire/Grass. Appearance-wise Embirch does not drastically differ from the other members of its line, not so much that it necessarily must be plain Grass. It looks far less practiced, and prepared, but that could be attributed to baby status or something along those lines perhaps (or really, just the fact it's a first-stage). It's got the cannons as bmb stresses, and the namesake to suggest that typing. Ultimately, I perceive Fire/Grass as the default that can't really go wrong if chosen- it makes sense, it's not breaking any canon. I present arguments for Grass in order to help even the playing field and because I prefer it in terms of raw appearance. Fire/Grass can be argued for in appearance too, though, especially with the current sprite.

It's the simplest way to go and I don't think it can really go wrong, I just think Embirch's looks fit plain-Grass more.

/potentially half-coherent sleep-deprived rant

[Nyktos]

I prefer Fire/Grass myself, but as an alternative that avoids the secondary becoming primary problem, we could consider Normal/Grass. There's precedent in Swablu.

[Eagle4]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyktos

I prefer Fire/Grass myself, but as an alternative that avoids the secondary becoming primary problem, we could consider Normal/Grass. There's precedent in Swablu.

Which is weird seeing as that typing was what I was thinking of as well, if Grass was turned down. I love the idea of Normal/Grass, the look of Embirch reflects this typing. So I suggest:

Remove Mono-Fire. Add Normal/Grass

[Birkal*]

Definitely pushing for Fire/Grass for both of them. They make the most sense, they have cannons for arms, and it is a logical progression. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Also, for those defending Mono-Grass, is there ever precedence for a pre-evolution to start as a single-type and then evolve into a dual-type with its previous typing becoming the secondary? I just did a quick check through the Pokedex and found no such case. The only case that is even relatively close is Swablu, but that is a pretty isolated case in and of itself; it also differs largely from the Pyroak chain (three vs. two, different typings, different stats, different flavor, etc).

[Eagle4]

I'm a bit sceptical about the argument that Embirch has cannons, so should be fire. I don't think cannons really relate to fire, so that point is arguably invalid.

Your second point certainly is valid; I admit I have no argument to counter your point. However, there is a first for everything, eh?



eh?

[Verminator]

Originally Posted by Fat Eagle4

I don't think cannons really relate to fire, so that point is arguably invalid.

Fair enough, but consider the following - what do the cannons shoot? Seeds maybe, okay, but unless you're considering not allowing Embirch to learn Ember, then they're going to be shooting fire.

Sure, we could have the poke with "Ember" in its name to not be fire type and hence not learn Ember, but at that point we'd be no better than Gamefreak at their most obtuse and confusing.

Fire / Grass for sanity's sake, sil vous plait.

[bugmaniacbob]

Cannons = Fire
Ember = Fire
Orange colour = Fire
Salamander = Fire

Leafy bits = Grass
Birch = Grass

Honestly, to me, Fire / Grass and Mono-Fire are the only ones that should even be slated from a flavour perspective, but I will leave that up to the Topic Leader's discretion.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Fat Eagle4

I'm a bit sceptical about the argument that Embirch has cannons, so should be fire. I don't think cannons really relate to fire, so that point is arguably invalid.

I don't know if you've ever tried to grass a cannon but I can tell you from experience that firing them is infinitely more effective

[Eagle4]

Sure, you fire cannons. But if there's a snitch pokemon, it's not automatically grass-type because the pokemon "grasses" on something. Firing a cannon is to launch something, not literally burning the cannon in flames.

How does Salamander = Fire anyway?

[bugmaniacbob]

Originally Posted by Fat Eagle4

Sure, you fire cannons. But if there's a snitch pokemon, it's not automatically grass-type because the pokemon "grasses" on something. Firing a cannon is to launch something, not literally burning the cannon in flames.

I think you may have missed the point

Also I'm curious as to what you personally would light a gunpowder fuse with other than fire.

How does Salamander = Fire anyway?

Seriously, this is like basic nerd knowledge

Originally Posted by Fat Wikipedia for sake of argument

Numerous legends have developed around the salamander over the centuries, many related to fire. This connection likely originates from the tendency of many salamanders to dwell inside rotting logs. When placed into a fire, the salamander would attempt to escape from the log, lending to the belief that salamanders were created from flames — a belief that gave the creature its name.

Associations of the salamander with fire appear in the writings of Aristotle, Pliny, the Talmud, Conrad Lycosthenes, Benvenuto Cellini, Ray Bradbury, David Weber, J. K. Rowling, Paracelsus, Leonardo da Vinci, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

[TerrickTerran]

It comes from mythology.

[Nyktos]

Originally Posted by Fat Birkal

Also, for those defending Mono-Grass, is there ever precedence for a pre-evolution to start as a single-type and then evolve into a dual-type with its previous typing becoming the secondary? I just did a quick check through the Pokedex and found no such case. The only case that is even relatively close is Swablu, but that is a pretty isolated case in and of itself; it also differs largely from the Pyroak chain (three vs. two, different typings, different stats, different flavor, etc).

There is no case of the primary becoming the secondary. Swablu is as far as I can tell the only case of the primary changing while the secondary remains the same. Still, Normal/Grass -> Fire/Grass has that one isolated case as precedent while Grass -> Fire/Grass would have none.

As I said, I do prefer Fire/Grass. I just thing Normal/Grass would be better than mono-Grass, if it comes to that.