np: UU Stage 10 - Suspect Test Round 1 - Let it Snow

[hilarious]

not particularly enjoying using Walrien...it was good for the first ten or so battles because my opponents quit when I clearly secured my win condition. it is however tiring to have to stall for 20+ turns doing nothing but sub protect before your opponent finally loses/quits while simultaneously being called a stalling faggot and timer stalled. in any case I think Roar/Blizzard/Sub/Protect with a healthy amount of speed is the best set for Walrien, I am running enough to beat Gligar so I can get a free sub on it and so I can phaze out Suicue before it moves. Blizzard happens to hit everything immune to Toxic Spikes for good usually SE damage except Bronzong which can give you a free sub.

Also using Altaria to help fend off what would be a natural Fighting and Fire weakness...Cloud Nine is interesting but it helps my opponent just as much as me usually. I use Heal bell too (sure hope thats legal lol) so losing Natural Cure is not a huge problem.

If you're using Walrien+Snover I see no reason why not to use Nidoqueen...providing vital Rock and Fighting resists while setting up TSpikes is insanely useful its like Nidoqueen was built for hail stall. Almost completely standard but I'm using Blastoise/Altaria/Walrien/Nidoqueen/Froslass (still haxes you with Twave and cursed body eheheeh) and of course Snover. Also has the benefit of being a mono blue team with shiny snover.

yet to face opposing hail stall but I suppose I would be at the disadvantage with no clear strategy against it.

[Chimera404]

Gah, now my rain team won't function right; thank goodness for Tornadus, though, who nobody in their right mind or doing some badass prediction would swap Snover into.

Uh, I can see Kingdra not faring well in this metagame, especially with the neutral STAB blizzards that are going to be thrown around. Its Rain Dance set especially will be neutered, which is going to force Specs or DD, both of which are markedly inferior in terms of versatility and sheer destructive damage output.

I think hail will be an interesting balancing factor in this HO meta, as Spikestacking Hail Stall is still going to be annoying, though not nearly as much as it used to be, due to the loss of so much and the dropping of powerful fighting-types like Scrafty, Mienshao, and especially Cobalion.

I'm not entirely sure I'll enjoy the stall metagame, but unfortunately my opinions don't count worth crap in this. Oh well. Might as well enjoy this while it lasts.

[kniteowl]

^ actually I can see Kingdra usage unchanged (overall) as Kingdra would make a good partner on a hail team that check rain teams, it will make the opposing Rain Team with Tornadus think twice about setting up rain because after you sack one pokemon to Tornadus's Hurricane, The rain is just begging for your Kingdra to come in and Nuke their team with Hydro-pump, Draco Meteor, Outrages.

Unless of course they're carrying Empoleon to check Kingdra or they're carrying their own Kingdra for speed ties in the rain.


Kingdra also comes with Steel and Fire Resist and Fits well on a Offensive Hail team.

[Chimera404]

Originally Posted by Fat kniteowl

^ actually I can see Kingdra usage unchanged (overall) as Kingdra would make a good partner on a hail team that check rain teams, it will make the opposing Rain Team with Tornadus think twice about setting up rain because after you sack one pokemon to Tornadus's Hurricane, The rain is just begging for your Kingdra to come in and Nuke their team with Hydro-pump, Draco Meteor, Outrages.

Unless of course they're carrying Empoleon to check Kingdra or they're carrying their own Kingdra for speed ties in the rain.


Kingdra also comes with Steel and Fire Resist and Fits well on a Offensive Hail team.

Interesting points, I never really considered that aspect. What I mean is that its arguably most effective set is crippled by Snover's instant weather-inducing capacity, because it can no longer set up Rain Dance freely, and even if it does, the threat of opposing Kingdra will make rain nonexistent as far as whole teams go. Who knows, at this stage?

[Super Mario Bro]

Hail teams might actually be good if/when Abomasnow drops to UU. Snover is undoubtedly their Achilles' Heel.

[superbadd]

Originally Posted by Fat Super Mario Bro

Hail teams might actually be good if/when Abomasnow drops to UU. Snover is undoubtedly their Achilles' Heel.

I have to agree on this. When you're using a hail team and you play against someone, the score is already 5-6 just because of how useless snover is. The only thing it does decently is counter bulky water types and be fodder, but most of the bulky waters can just set up on it, as snover can't even 2HKO with a SE giga drain. Once abomasnow comes in, hail will be a lot more powerful, as aboma is actually pretty useful and makes a decent revenge killer, attacker, and wall; with either scarf, choice band, specs, and sub seed.

[kniteowl]

Anyone here who played early RU?

And saw the Endeavour + Trick Room + Hail Teams?

I've been trying them out for fun, and it got old, it works but there's no real challenge in it.

Sure the odd Fake out or Priority user or Ghost type may ruin your team but it you support it with OTR Cofagrigus and a Dark Type Pursuiting the Ghost... it kind of works lol.

Don't use this kind of team, it's frowned upon :P

[Chimera404]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

I have to agree on this. When you're using a hail team and you play against someone, the score is already 5-6 just because of how useless snover is. The only thing it does decently is counter bulky water types and be fodder, but most of the bulky waters can just set up on it, as snover can't even 2HKO with a SE giga drain. Once abomasnow comes in, hail will be a lot more powerful, as aboma is actually pretty useful and makes a decent revenge killer, attacker, and wall; with either scarf, choice band, specs, and sub seed.

I actually have to disagree with you on this point after using a Hail Semi-Stall team with SubSeed Snover. It's actually really annoying if played right, and the Leech Seed support it provides helps the team so much. Subseed is always about prediction, and if you can do that, you're in the lead. I find that Snover is great for four things:

1. Setting up Hail (duh)
2. Subseeding the hell out of the opponnet
3. Taking a single SE hit (Heracross can't 1hko, iirc) and stalling for a couple of turns with Protect. Alternatively, its bulk isn't that bad because of Eviolite and heavy investment and it has the staying power to wall some threats (not many). I once beat a ScarfCross using Stone Edge 1 on 1 by whacking it on the switch with Blizzard, hitting it again while it took out ~76% of my HP, then stalling it out with a lucky pair of consecutive Protects.
4. Death Fodder, when I need it.

So it's nowhere as good as Abomasnow, but it can pull some of its weight in a battle.

Anyone been using Specs Glaceon in Hail recently? Howabout Stallrein?

[cim]

Originally Posted by Fat Chimera404

Anyone been using Specs Glaceon in Hail recently? Howabout Stallrein?

havent played yet, but regice looks like the much better ice body staller. as for sweepers, i'm really partial to jynx who has a sleeping move and psyshock for snorlax

[Bent1ey]

I thought Regice was unreleased...?

Snover is probably at its best with Subseed and maybe using support moves (Icy Wind, Light Screen, Toxic), the problem is that it's too easy to sub up on Snover and clean the house by setting up on it, I really don't think it has any straight damage potential.

[ElectivireRocks]

Stallrein is still horribly annoying and so is Froslass even without Snow Cloak (Cursed Body isn't bad at all and it saved me a lot of times). Make sure to run enough Speed EVs to outspeed Mienshao.

Snover isn't as useless as people think. Blizzard still hurts a lot of things even with no Sp.Atk investiment and Leech Seed makes Ice resists think twice before switching in. Specially bulky versions work best as long as you keep Snover away from Fire attacks.
I have seen players carrying Rain Dance on random things like Swampert so make sure not to let Snover die if you see any potential rain abuser in the opposing team.

Purely offensive hail teams don't work well because many new UU mons outspeed them and those who don't have the defenses to take Blizzards (such as Scrafty and Bronzong).

Nidoqueen with Toxic Spikes and Blizzard is a great addition to hail stall teams. Incidentally the best TS absorbers (Roserade, Nidoking and Nidoqueen) are all weak to ice.

The three main Rapid Spinners in UU are all vulnerable to common hailstall teams - Blastoise and Claydol have trouble against Snover, while Hitmontop doesn't do well against Froslass and Nidoqueen while Magic Bounce Xatu can't take Blizzards at all.

What hail stall is missing is a rapid spinner that has good synergy with the team. If for some reason Tentacruel drops from OU it would be perfect. Right now Blastoise and Hitmontop fit this role best.

Hail stall has trouble with Choice Band and Choice Specs users, especially Darmanitan and Chandelure.
Otherwise I'd say it's a viable playstyle and definitely not broken. I'd like it to stay.

[Hot N Cold]

With Snover you are playing mainly with 5 mons and hail, probably the "best" Snover set is bulky eviolite with Grass Whistle.

Also, SubProtect Glaceon is very annoying when i used this thing in NU.

[kokoloko*]

Okay, so a few days ago I laddered a bit (~15 or so matches) and came across a couple hail teams. The first was a poorly built stall team that got swept by Nasty Plot Mew like seven turns in. The second one was a balanced team that made use of Weather Ball Raikou and I actually lost to it because my win condition died to end turn hail damage after a high roll. Needless to say I was pretty pissed off but yeah.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is not that the end turn damage costed me a game I should have won. It's the fact that, despite there not being any hax that I could not have overcome against an opponent of that caliber using a non-hail team, I was unable to do just that because hail facilitated his win condition that much. Keep in mind, this was not a great player or anything, and my team is not particularly weak to Ice (secret for now, I'll share it later probably, but PK knows it so you can ask him if you don't believe me lol).

What I'm basically trying to say is that everyone should not be so dismissive of hail being potentially broken again just because you haven't seen it make a big splash. Chances are you haven't faced any good players with it on the ladder and that the average players using it just seem better than they really are.

tl;dr - People are jumping to conclusions too early.

[exotic]

While I think hail damage is annoying, it is also just part of the metagame right now. For how long has stealth rock been part of the metagame? Both are just residual damage. I rather have lost 6% after I survived a hit and KOd the opponents pokemon and die than losing because of hazards I couldn't tank the hit at all. Hail lets offensive pokemon be on a timer but that is certainly not a bad thing.

Also, there isn't anything that could be called broken under the conditions of hail besides the 6% damage every turn. I rather have an useful pokemon and missing the 6% damage every turn than Snover on my team.

[superbadd]

I've played over a 100 battles using both hail semi-offense and semi- stall and it's honestly not broken. A good player can get around it without much trouble, really. Hail teams have a huge weakness to chandelure, if that thing gets a safe switch in, it's gonna kill something. Rotom-h, is the anti hail mon, as it can either roast everything with overheat or zap the water types with thunderbolt. NP houndoom also plows through hail w/little trouble as after a boost it can OHKO every member of the generic hail team. They also have a huge weakness to SR and mixed fighting types like meinshao and cobalion. There's just so many ways to get around it. Koko- I think you may need to change your team up a bit or just add a fire type.

[hilarious]

to be completely fair if you do not have a Trace P2 or Snorlax or a very specially defensive bulky water Chandelure would probably get a free kill if it gets in safely regardless of what type of team you use. I seriously think a generic hail team would be running at least one or two members faster than Houndoom so I cannot imagine Houndoom sweeping so easily.

Also in response to your question Bent1ey Regice is not released with ice Body otherwise it would probably be at least equal to Walrien (i still think Roar stallrien differentiates the two though).

[superbadd]

What two members of hail would be faster?

The generic teams are snover/slowbro/nidoqueen/wallrein/spinner|xatu/filler

[Super Mario Bro]

@kokoloko

I don't view Hail as a problem at all right now. Unlike Sand, the damage from Hail is not usually one-sided, since Ice-types are much harder to splash on teams than Steel, Rock, or Ground-types. Snover is also sub-par as an offensive and defensive pivot, so he's usually a bit of a drag (outside of checking certain bulky waters and being death fodder).

Hail might become problematic if/when Abomasnow drops to UU, but right now, it's not broken at all.

[Reaver12]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

What hail stall is missing is a rapid spinner that has good synergy with the team. If for some reason Tentacruel drops from OU it would be perfect. Right now Blastoise and Hitmontop fit this role best.

Has anyone tried to fit Cryogonal onto a Hail team? It seems like that thing would fit perfectly, wasting spin blockers with STAB Blizzards and not taking any damage from hail like the other spinners in the tier. It gives you one more fighting weakness, but getting rid of hazards seems more beneficial to me.

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

What two members of hail would be faster?

The generic teams are snover/slowbro/nidoqueen/wallrein/spinner|xatu/filler

To be honest, that "generic" team isn't that great. It doesn't pack nearly enough punch; as I said before I think balance is the way forward in hail. Good hail teams break the mold and use some different stuff. My previously mentioned Crobat can outspeed and OHKO Houndoom with just a little damage (not hard in hail) just as a note. It is yet another stop to fighting types, and can really take them off the threat list.

Some Pokemon I've found work well with hail balance:

Houndoom: stacking SR weaknesses can suck, but if you are using hail, you already have to cover SR. It's not an option. That said, Houndoom can be pretty useful for hail teams. For one, Fire STAB is a relief on a hail team, it can get you past Steels and other Ices pretty well. Having a Chandelure check is great, and in general Houndoom makes Fire Pokemon reluctant to spam STABs. Strong priority and Pursuit utility is just plain useful. While hail might not be inherently weak to them, covering Psychic types (especially Mew) is also welcome. I won't lie, passive damage is a bitch, but Houndoom's been pulling his weight.

Heracross: The face of UU, it's not really surprising. Fighting STAB is great for the same reason as Fire: it gets past those Steel and any Ice types. It also gets rid of Umbreon, Snorlax, and P2 well, all which try to absorb Blizzards. Heracross can check Fighting types pretty well, threatening Mienshao and Cobalion with Close Combat, and sometimes switching in on other Heracross when they expect you to go to Nidoqueen. It also makes a great late-game sweeper. The thing about hail balance is passive damage starts stacking like crazy, and having Moxie ScarfCross to clean up is great. Just get rid of Ghosts (Houndoom can help), stack some damage, and start sweeping.

Rotom-F: It's pretty obvious why you'd use Rotom-F in hail, but it really is just so great. SubSplit just plows through teams. There are very few Pokemon that can take two hits from this thing, and if it hides behind a Sub, something generally dies. It has a troll Speed tier that gets non Scarf Nidoking and Heracross, and punishes any 90-95s that don't boost Speed. It is a great team weakener, and can set up a sweep for a teammate, or sweep well itself if you can remove or paralyze faster Pokemon.

[superbadd]

Crobat makes no sense to put on a hail team. If you're looking for a fighting resist nidoqueen is the way to go, as she can take pretty much any hit from most fighting types, lay down rocks and t-spikes while also taking advantage of hail by using blizzard. Crobat has to watch out for coverage moves by opposing fighting types, is SR weak and outside of taking a random HJK or CC, it has no logistical use on a hail team.

Hail is more about stalling and slowly wearing down the opposing team, so of course that team doesn't "pack enough punch", because it's primarily meant to were things down. Heracross, needs scarf to outspeed houndoom and tbh outside of its normal job(fucking up other team) it really brings nothing new to hail. Rotom-h is OHKO'd by +2 dark pulse after rocks so I don't see why you brought it up. Did you even use or play against hail? Because that team is actually pretty solid in practice.

[kokoloko*]

Except you're getting 6-0'd by any fast setup sweeper...

That team is honestly pretty terrible and is a really good example of what I was trying to say in my earlier post. It's teams like those that are going to make hail look bad in comparison to what a good player can do with it.

PS. Why would you suggest change my team when I specifically said I'm not weak to hail?

Oh and to clarify, I'm not saying hail is broken I'm just saying it looks like everyone has jumped to conclusions already when the test just started.

[superbadd]

That hail team is destroyed by SD virizion, but I ran into a froslass on that team and it just OHKO'd with blizzard. The filler most likely accounts for set up sweepers. I was assuming you thought hail was broken so I was just suggesting options to deal with it, my mistake. What can a good player do with a hail team? They seem rather limited do to no abomasnow or regice. The ones I ran into aren't that bad, they're fairly well put together. I'm curious as to what examples the rest of you have? How can hail be used to maximize it to its best degree?

[Ace Emerald]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

Crobat makes no sense to put on a hail team. If you're looking for a fighting resist nidoqueen is the way to go, as she can take pretty much any hit from most fighting types, lay down rocks and t-spikes while also taking advantage of hail by using blizzard. Crobat has to watch out for coverage moves by opposing fighting types, is SR weak and outside of taking a random HJK or CC, it has no logistical use on a hail team.

Hail is more about stalling and slowly wearing down the opposing team, so of course that team doesn't "pack enough punch", because it's primarily meant to were things down. Heracross, needs scarf to outspeed houndoom and tbh outside of its normal job(fucking up other team) it really brings nothing new to hail. Rotom-h is OHKO'd by +2 dark pulse after rocks so I don't see why you brought it up. Did you even use or play against hail? Because that team is actually pretty solid in practice.

Nidoqueen and Crobat have different uses, they occupy different niches. I actually used both on the same team for a while, and it wasn't redundant at all. Crobat can stallbreak like no one's business, and if your team lacks the punch necessary to break a wall, that's life saving. That fast Brave Bird and the ability to Roost off hail damage also sets it apart from Nidoqueen. It can also take on Roserade. While she isn't the queen anymore, and a hail team may seem safe, nothing on "normal" hail team can take a hit from her, and she can come in on a bulky water or after a KO. Not saying she's a super threat, but handling her is nice.

I have no idea why you say I said anything about Rotom-H, because I said Rotom-F, and I never said it countered NP Houndoom. I find it funny how quickly you dismiss Heracross, I have a pretty legit argument and some empirical evidence to back it's effectiveness on hail teams. Why would you say "it brings nothing new to hail" when part of my argument was how great Fighting STAB is on a hail team, and hail could use a great late game cleaner.

[Machi]

Originally Posted by Fat superbadd

That hail team is destroyed by SD virizion, but I ran into a froslass on that team and it just OHKO'd with blizzard. The filler most likely accounts for set up sweepers.

That is just the weakness of that so called team as either Chandelure will have a field day, mainly because that team is ripe for the picking due to the mons being rather slow so they'll get roasted. Or if you do opt to cover Chandelure you'll end up being vulnerable to a fast set up sweeper since you'd be down some options that are most likely going to be set up fodder (I can't exactly claim that Froslass is that reliable of a check for many of the set up sweepers and I certainly wouldn't relegate it that role in a hail team) - and yes SD Virizion would count as a set up sweeper so it just corroborates Koko's point of being weak to a fast set up sweeper (or as in Koko's example Nasty Plot Mew)...

Ace nails it in how Crobat arguably does fit in with a hail team, for one while it may not offer hazards it does prove useful in say checking or outright stopping many set up sweepers (by merit of its speed tier + typing) that would threaten certain types of hail team. I think you might be a bit too gung ho at a certain idea of what a hail team archetype would look like but that is what was being warned about jumping to conclusions about hail at this point of the suspect since we don't necessarily know yet what a really frightening hail team looks like but arguably it is one that is not necessarily too focused at stalling, as the team you cited as off hand example.