The Shell Smashers In Little Cup

[Superpowerdude]

Approved by Aerrow

The Shell Smashers In Little Cup!

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Shell Smash is arguably the best set up move in the game according to several competitive battlers. The ability to double a pokemons offensive stats in one turn is absolutely huge, and it far outwieghs the defensive stat drop. With Quiver Dance the only set up move that has a chance at competing with Shell Smash for the best set up move in the game, has no distribution what so ever for competitive Little Cup pokemon. This makes Shell Smash easily the best set up move and makes any Little Cup player quiver when they see one of the Shell Smashers in the team preview; Shellder, Omanyte, Clamperl, Dwebble and Tirtouga



Hello everyone and welcome to the Shell Smasher in Little Cup discussion! In this thread we investigate and discuss the 5 shell smashers in Little Cup; Shellder, Omanyte, Clamperl, Dwebble and Tirtouga. As you have probally noticed there is also a poll at the top of this thread. In order to find out which Shell Smasher Little Cup players like the most i encourage you to vote the shell smasher that you think is the most effective. When discussing the Shell Smashers please keep these points in mind;

• What are the pro's and con's of the Shell Smasher?
• What is the Shell Smashers place in the metagame?
• What type of team support does the Shell Smasher appreciate?
• What does this Shell Smasher have that others don't?
• What type of pokemon counter the Shell Smasher?

Please note that these are only some ideas to discuss about the Shell Smashers and you are certainly not limited to just these 5 questions, as long as your post is relevant to the topic. Also it is worthy to note that you don't just have to talk about one Shell Smasher like wise you don't have to talk about all five if you want either that is the beauty about this discussion! Now without further adieu here are the Shell Smashers!

Shellder @ Evolite / Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Naive / Jolly Nature
~ Shell Smash
~ Rock Blast
~ Icicle Spear
~ Hydro Pump / Ice Shard

30 HP / 65 Atk / 100 Def / 45 SpA / 25 SpD / 40 Spe

Shellder is an absolutely amazing Shell Smasher. With base 100 defence it becomes quite easy for Shellder to get a Shell Smash and start sweeping lata game. Shellder also has the great ability to go mixed with Hydro Pump and 22 SpA after a Shell Smash which makes Shellder incredibly hard to wall as with Hydro Pump it can beat Bronzor. Skill Link is also an amaznig ability making Icicel Spear and Rock Blast hit 5 times in a row. However Shellder is not without flaws. Despite its great base 100 defence it has a rather pitiful base 25 Special defence and 35 HP which makes it harder to get a Shell Smash then one would initially assume. Although after a Shell Smash Shellders offensive stats are monstorous, compared to other Shell Smasher it is not that high. Ferroseed can also wall Shellder quite easily. None the less Shellder is a great Shell Smasher and is quite awesome given its ability to go mixed and Skill Link.

Omanyte @ Evolite / Life Orb
Trait: Shell Armour
EVs: 36 Def / 200 SpA / 240 Spe
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
Modest Nature
~ Shell Smash
~ Hydro Pump / Surf
~ Ancient Power / Earthpower / Ice Beam
~ Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Electric]

35 HP / 40 Atk / 100 Def / 90 SpA / 55 SpD / 35 Spe

Much like Shellder Omanyte is also blessed with a very high base 100 defence to help it get a Shell Smash off easier. Omanyte also has a great 90 base special attack to make him a monstorous sweeper after a Shell Smash. Hydro Pump is an incredibly strong stab move, however Surf also gets the job done because of its boosted power after a Shell Smash. Another great thing about Omanyte is its unpredictable coverage to take out some "would be walls." Eg Ferroseed thinks he can wall Omanyte bam Hidden Power [Fire] bulky waters think Omanyte is running Hidden Power [Fire] then you can beat them with Hidden Power [Electric] This makes Omanyte incredibly hard to switch into. However like all Shell Smashers Omanyte has some flaws. Despite base 100 defence it has poor defensive typing and a low 35 base HP. Omanyte's ability Shell Armour is also lack luster because Omanyte should only really be getting hit once then after it Shell Smashes it should be sweeping.

Clamperl @ DeepSeaTooth / Evolite
Trait: Rattled
EVs: 76 HP / 248 SpA / 180 Spe
IVs: 30 SpA / 30 Spe
Modest Nature
~ Shell Smash
~ Surf
~ Ice Beam / Substitute
~ Hidden Power [Grass] / Hidden Power [Fire]

35 HP / 64 Atk / 84 Def / 74 SpA / 55 SpD / 32 Spe

Clamperl is the most powerful Shell Smasher out of all of them. With this set holding a DeepSeaTooth Clamperl reaches an absolutely terrifying 68! Think about it a lv 5 pokemon with 68 SpA! This special attack lets Clamperl muscle through opposing pokemon despite its mediocre coverage. Surf is the best attacking move on the set 90 base damage and stab makes Surf an extremely powerful move to spam. Ice Beam hits the Dragon and Grass-types that resist Surf. However Substitute protects Clamperl against priority and faster Choice Scarf users but is relativly hard to pull off especially after a defense drop from Shell Smash. Never the less a Shell Smashed Clamperl behind a Substitute is an instant win pretty much! Much like Omanyte the last coverage move either helps with bulky waters or Steel-types. Clamperls flaws lie in its rather low speed, and poor coverage, however with a bit of hazard support Clamperl can get around its bad coverage with its insanely high special attack.

Dwebble @ Oran Berry
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
~ Shell Smash
~ Rock Blast
~Earthquake
~X-Scissor / Stealth Rock

50 HP / 65 Atk / 85 Def / 35 SpA / 35 SpD / 55 Spe

Dwebble is probally the most underated Shell Smasher in Little Cup. With that being said due to this sets suprise value it is very easy for it to get a Shell Smash or even two Shell Smashes due to your opponent thinking it might be the Spike Stacking varaint. With the Sturdy + Oran Berry combo it is very easy for Dwebble to get a Shell Smash and then survive weak priority moves due to the health that Oran Berry brings. Stat wise Dwebble is no slouch either sporting a great 85 Defence and unlike some Shell Smashers a good HP stat to work with in 50. 65 Atk is also enough to sweep after a Shell Smash and Dwebble also has the highest speed out of all Shell Smashers reaching 30 speed after a Shell Smash! Dwebble still has its flaws though a low special defense and Water-type weakness can be exploited by pokemon like Staru and Chinchou and Dwebbles Sturdy can be broken through things like Fake Out. After a Shell Smash Dwebble is also weak to priority barring Fake Out. A strond Mach Punch, Vaccum Wave, Sucker Punch and especially Aqua Jet will dispose of Dwebble quickyl. However with Dwebbles suprise factor Dwebble can completely embarrass players and sweep there team if Dwebbles checks and counters are gone.

Tirtouga @ Splash Plate
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
~ Shell Smash
~ Aqua Tail
~Stone Edge
~Aqua Jet

54 HP / 78 Atk / 103 Def / 53 SpA / 45 Sp Def / 22 Spe

Tirtouga is such a great Shell Smasher in Little Cup. Tirtouga usually has no trouble getting a Shell Smash with Sturdy and the best bulk out of all Shell Smashers (54/103/45). Not only is Sturdy great for garunteeing a Shell Smash but it lets Tirtouga run a different item as apposed to Evolite. Tirtouga can now use Splash Plate to boost its already great 78 Atk to sky high levels when it use Aqua Jet or Aqua Tail. After a Shell Smash these Water-type stabs do incredible damage and it is great to boost the damage of the 40 base power Aqua Jet. Tirtougas stabs (Aqua Tail / Stone Edge / Aqua Jet) have suprisingly good coverage as well. Aqua Jet is great on Tirtouga because it lets him beat some opponents that are looking to use priority to beat Tirtouga such as Sucker Punch Houndour. Tirtougas flaws are in its sometimes unreliable Stone Edge and Aqua Tail due to these moves not having 100% accuracy, Tirtouga is also shockingly slow for a Shell Smasher only reaching 22 speed after a Shell Smash. Despite Tirtougas good bulk its bad defensive typing and weakness to Fighting hinder it somewhat. Despite all this it is often very easy for Tirtouga to get up a Shell Smash and sweep if his counters are gone.

Thank you for reading! Please start discussing the Shell Smashers and their role in Little Cup, also if you have read this far please remember to answer the poll! Aside from discussing these Shell Smashers if you havnt used one why not give it a try on the ladder and post your experience. It would be good to know how these Shell Smashers do in practice not just in theory.

[Chieliee]

voted omanyte of course
no mention of ice beam though? i used to run hpump ice beam earth power iirc

[Crackstar]

This is a very well done thread, props SuperPowerDude. Yeah Clamperl is the best in my opinion, as there isn't much of anything that can take a hit from that SpA, the only option is to outspeed. The others all look good, but has anyone ever tried a Shell Smash spiking set with Dwebble? It may have been tried with Crustle in RU, its basically Smash while they SR, then set up rocks as they switch, then get two layers of spikes with Sturdy. I can see it working for hyper offensive teams that need hazard layers on the field.

[Superpowerdude]

Interestingly enough Crackstar i have considered a Dwebble set like that before but i have never given it a try has anyone tried a Shelp Smashing Spike set?

And Chielee i added in Ice Beam on Omanyte

[vileman]

I personally love how clamperl can have a lot of spc attack without using shell smash but after having shell smahed its just an offensive juggernaut. Also, after a shell smash common priority moves wont Ko, like mienfoo's fake out.

[Superpowerdude]

That is very true vileman. Clamperl can also run Substitute to block more harmfup priority like Mach Punch or Sucker Punch however this is at the expense of coverage.

[Golgi Body]

I've been using a Shellder on an LC team of mine lately, and it makes an excellent late-game cleaner, as it plows through almost the whole tier except for maybe 2 or 3 pokemon with essentially two 125 BP moves. I use it with Scraggy, with one of them sweeping early-game to weaken the opponent and the other cleaning late game. It should also be noted that Shellder also gets Rapid Spin, which is an option for the last spot.

I can't believe how little votes Dwebble has. It is the fastest Shell Smasher and is quite a surprise when people expect a defensive set. Dwebble, along with Shellder, have the ability to break through Abra and Substitutes, and this is the reason I think they are better that other smashers.

I have fought against many Clamperl, I feel that it is the most used Shell Smasher. Even though it's Special Attack is through the roof with a DeepSeaTooth, it's defense is the lowest out of the five Shell Smashers and is easily revenged by priority moves. It can become almost invincible with Substitute, but then lacks coverage.

Tirtouga is quite the common smasher, and is great with Splash Plate Aqua Jet. Maybe I'm not seeing something everyone else is, but I don't like Tirtouga. It's the slowest Shell Smasher, and Mienfoo can break Sturdy and then Electric and Grass moves can take it out.

Omanyte is the only smasher I have never used. It seems like it's coverage would be great, and I want to know if it is as good as people say it is.

Abra can take a hit with a sash and KO any of the smashers. Dwebble and Shellder are the only ones capable of taking out Abra with multi-hit moves.


Shell Smash Tiers imo:

A -

B -

C -

Also great thread Superpowerdude.

[JacobNinja]

Originally Posted by Fat Golgi Body

I've been using a Clamperl on an LC team of mine lately, and it makes an excellent late-game cleaner, as it plows through almost the whole tier except for maybe 2 or 3 pokemon with essentially two 125 BP moves. I use it with Scraggy, with one of them sweeping early-game to weaken the opponent and the other cleaning late game. It should also be noted that Shellder also gets Rapid Spin, which is an option for the last spot.

you said clamperl at the beggining, but i assume you mean shellder. Also, i've always been able to handle shellder with my scarf magnemite, do you have a chinchou or grass type to soak electric moves?

[Good_Luck!]

I really love the fact that Shellder can KILL Abra everytime as other Smashers will be devastated by it with Focus Sash Intact; maybe Dwebble can do the same but Rock Blast' accuracy may leave it open to revenge kill.

I'm really thorn between Clamperl and Shellder. It just depends on the team you're running. I find it easier to fit Shellder on my teams but Clamperl has proved that it is really frightening with a DeepSeaTooth.

voted omanyte of course

I used Omanyte on Sand and it REALLY is powerful having good Def and good SpD even after a Shell Smash. I don't know how it would fit on a standard team. I mean, it's really good but Clamperl is better IMO.

[mikel]

Originally Posted by Fat JacobNinja

you said clamperl at the beggining, but i assume you mean shellder. Also, i've always been able to handle shellder with my scarf magnemite, do you have a chinchou or grass type to soak electric moves?

Could I ask how you're beating Shell Smash Shellder with Choice Scarf Magnemite? The former has 28 Speed at +2, the latter 21 Speed at +1. Shellder OHKOes Choice Scarf Magnemite with Hydro Pump at +2.

My personal favourite at the moment is Shellder, using Wynaut to Encore things like weakened Ferroseed and the like, giving Shellder a free turn to set up. Mind you, the only team I've got it on is still very much a WIP.

[Delver]

Shellder has Skill link which makes it super powerful as a sweeper, despite not getting stab on either of the moves that abuse it. Personally, though If i were looking for a smasher i'd have to go for Tirtouga. it has access to Sturdy, like dwebble - which is godsend for a sweeper that actively lowers its defenses - but unlike dwebble it's non-rock stab is actually good. Water > Bug. hands down. It *also* gets priority in the form of Aqua Jet which lets it not have to rely on weird "go-arounds" like substitute. It's still fairly slow after a smash in comparison to other mons at +2, but again, thats more than made up for in its access to priority and strong stabs. plus it's hella adorable; and thats all that really matters

[Superpowerdude]

Agreeing with you Delver that Tirtouga is the most adorable Shell Smasher!

@Mikel Wynaut is a great teammate for Shellder and any shell smasher in general. With Encore pretty much giving a shell smasher a free shell smash if used right

[Chieliee]

Why is everyone voting Clamperl? Omanyte does pretty much the same thing but has a much easier time setting up......

[Crackstar]

So i tried a Shell-Smashing spikes set with Dwebble, and it worked pretty well. Multi-hit moves were a problem, so was Fake Out, but i ran Drifloon so it wasnt too much of an issue. The set i ran was:


Dwebble@Mental Herb
Trait: Sturdy
36 Hp/ 236 Atk/ 236 Spe
Nature: Jolly
-Shell Smash
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Rock Blast

Thoughts:
-Mental Herb was shit, no one runs taunt anymore, don't use it. Any other ideas for an item? Berry Juice would be so nice.
-This set always got up SR, bar Fake Out+HJK from Mienfoo, but you should really switch out to your Ghost type when you see a lead Mienfoo after the Fake Out.
-When this set truly shined was when the opponent set up SR as you Shell Smashed, as then they would usually switch as you rocked, giving you two turns to Spike.
-The most common situation was Dwebble would get attacked, then it would Shell Smash. The other player would switch to try and stop a sweep, and I would get rocks and a layer of Spikes. The only time this didn't happen is when they took me down to Sturdy and went to Snover, meaning I only got up SR on the switch.
-Overall, this set was very good, and I would recommend it over normal SR+Spikes Dwebble for sure.

[Superpowerdude]

Well there you go! An interesting Dwebble set right there that looks amazing! I think Oram Berry would be a good item choice as well for the recovery. What are your thoughts on the Dwebble set guys?

[Delver]

I wont lie i actually kind of Like Smash spikes dwebble. It gives dwebble an extra layer of depth on how to play him because he's no longer just spam hazards until dead or Smash when free swtch etc. Honestly; i see it mroe as a support set that has the ability to instantly pivot into an extreme offensive threat when is given the opprotunity. Essentially it punishes your opponents for discounting it after seeing spikes which provides a lot of momentum and a lot of scrambling on your opponents side.

Sorry for the necrobump, but i really liked the set idea.

[blarajan]

I honestly have to say that Tirtouga is just the best damn Shell Smasher in the tier regardless, and that comes from its ability to not get absolutely fucked by faster Pokemon or Pokemon with priority. You guys are vastly underestimating the value of Aqua Jet, in dealing with Murkrow, Drilbur, Scarf Misdreavus, weakened Timburr, Houndour, Scarf Mienfoo, etc. It reliably checks Murkrow, has a godsend in Sturdy, and the ability to circumvent priority and faster Pokemon with its own STAB priority. There's no Shell Smasher in the tier that will in any way shape or form sweep nearly as consistently as Tirtouga. I honestly just find that irrefutable, but I would really love someone to change my mind. I haven't really used the other guys that much yet since every time I have I've missed Tirtouga.

[mikel]

Originally Posted by Fat blarajan

I honestly have to say that Tirtouga is just the best damn Shell Smasher in the tier regardless, and that comes from its ability to not get absolutely fucked by faster Pokemon or Pokemon with priority. You guys are vastly underestimating the value of Aqua Jet, in dealing with Murkrow, Drilbur, Scarf Misdreavus, weakened Timburr, Houndour, Scarf Mienfoo, etc. It reliably checks Murkrow, has a godsend in Sturdy, and the ability to circumvent priority and faster Pokemon with its own STAB priority. There's no Shell Smasher in the tier that will in any way shape or form sweep nearly as consistently as Tirtouga. I honestly just find that irrefutable, but I would really love someone to change my mind. I haven't really used the other guys that much yet since every time I have I've missed Tirtouga.

Just to compound this, I used exactly the same team as with Shellder above, and Tirtouga is just so much better for it. Having STAB on its main attacks, for me, is so much more useful than hitting 28 Speed at +2, particularly as it has Aqua Jet. Not only this, but it honestly doesn't always need to Shell Smash right away, as it has a (relatively) powerful priority attack to pick off opponents with.

[Superpowerdude]

Great discussion guys! Good to see this thread up and running again :) I would have to agree with Mikel and blarajan that Tirtouga is my favourite Shell Smasher. I remember using it quite a lot on the ladder during the ened of the bw1 metagame and i have to say it completely blew away my expectations and turned out to be a way better sweeper then i thought. At the time Tirtouga was one of the lesser used shell smashers, with Omantye, Shellder and Clamperl taking the spot light. However Tirtouga has one this going for it which they all don't. Aqua Jet, This lets Tirtouga do a few things that other Shell Smashers can't. Beat Drilbur in sand as well as beat Sucker Punch Houndour. As Blarajan also mentioned being able to pick of Scarfoo, Misdreavus(scarfed), weakend Timburr etc is also amazing. I know i said Tirtouga has bad typing defensive typing (which it does being weak to Fighting) It does help Tirtouga beat down on Murkrow easy resisting Brave Bird while easily being able to get up a Shell Smash. His stabs have also got great coverage in Little Cup.

Another thing worth discussing is good team mates for Shell Smashers. I have found Nasty Plot Misdreaus to be hands down the best offensive partner to Tirtouga. Because Tirtouga lures in pokemon like Lileep, Porygon, Croagunk, Bronzor, etc that Misdreavus can weaken opening up a Tirtouga sweep. So what other Shell Smash partners have you guys been using and for what Shell Smasher(s)?

[Electrolyte]

It's obvious which Shell Smasher I prefer, and I have good reason as well. Shellder's cleaning abilities are just so useful- and the fact that it can beat Lileep, Hippopotas, AND Snover make it an excellent choice on weather teams. Though its attack stat isn't as high as some other SS'ers, its movepool certainly compensates- with a base 125 Ice move that hits through subs and sturdies. Shellder also has quite a lot of bulk; with an Eviolite, it can take hits even after a Shell Smash, while retaining enough power to KO opposing threats. I've always liked Ice Shard in my Shellder; it's a great revenging tool which allows you to finish off weakened pokemon even without a Shell Smash, such as Drilbur or Sandshrew. Ice Shard also lets you beat Murkrow's FeatherDances and Sucker Punches, as well as some other opposing priority moves.

Tirtouga is also excellent for the reason Blarajan named above; STAB Aqua Jet is extremely powerful, and has even more revenging capabilities than Shellder's Ice Shard, which is mainly more for surprise reasons.

[Superpowerdude]

Now Ice Shard on Shellder is quite an interesting option and works similar to how Tirtouga use Aqua Jet. It also helps Shellder beat Double Rush one of the most dominating playstyles in Little Cup atm

[Delver]

Originally Posted by Fat Superpowerdude

Now Ice Shard on Shellder is quite an interesting option and works similar to how Tirtouga use Aqua Jet. It also helps Shellder beat Double Rush one of the most dominating playstyles in Little Cup atm

Shellder is similiar to tirtouga only in that it gets access to priority. The difference between the two is that Tirtouga sacrifices speed and the ability to KO through substitutes for sheer power and a bit higher defenses. I mean statistically, Shellder has two 125 base power attacks and a 40bp priority with reduntant coverage; where as tirtouga has a 135 base power and 150 base power attacks with a 60 bp priority attack with redundant coverage. Factoring in base stats, tirtouga has srtonger offensive stats and thus will just do more damage. At +2, the difference in speed is 28 (assuming positive natures) shellder to 24 Tirtouga. Both are over the threshold for the "outspeed entire metagame" teir and also the "out speed a bunch of scarfers" teir; so the 4 point difference only really matters against fast scarfers like misdreavus, which are few and far between outside of the flying typing (that take SE damage and cannot switch into either Smasher). Its arguable that the 4 points is the difference maker, but im more prone to say "9/10 times it wont matter." So to me, the choice between shellder and tirtouga is "is the drop in power worth being able to break subs" and, honestly, if the smasher is doing his job and you're playing it correctly, your opponent shouldnt get the chance to put up a substitute. I still say tirt is the Smasher of worlds.

It is worth noting that shellder has a much easier time with subroost krow than tirt does.

[Superpowerdude]

Delver you seem to have interpereted my post wrong. I didnt say Tirtouga was anything like Shellder i simply said that Shellder can use Ice Shard quite simialrily to Tirtouga using Aqua Jet in that it lets him bypass priority and lets him do good agains Double Rush teams. Like i have said in above posts and my answer in the poll Tirtouga is my favourite Shell Smasher to! :)

[mikel]

Originally Posted by Fat Delver

Shellder is similiar to tirtouga only in that it gets access to priority. The difference between the two is that Tirtouga sacrifices speed and the ability to KO through substitutes for sheer power and a bit higher defenses. I mean statistically, Shellder has two 125 base power attacks and a 40bp priority with reduntant coverage; where as tirtouga has a 135 base power and 150 base power attacks with a 60 bp priority attack with redundant coverage. Factoring in base stats, tirtouga has srtonger offensive stats and thus will just do more damage. At +2, the difference in speed is 28 (assuming positive natures) shellder to 24 Tirtouga. Both are over the threshold for the "outspeed entire metagame" teir and also the "out speed a bunch of scarfers" teir; so the 4 point difference only really matters against fast scarfers like misdreavus, which are few and far between outside of the flying typing (that take SE damage and cannot switch into either Smasher). Its arguable that the 4 points is the difference maker, but im more prone to say "9/10 times it wont matter." So to me, the choice between shellder and tirtouga is "is the drop in power worth being able to break subs" and, honestly, if the smasher is doing his job and you're playing it correctly, your opponent shouldnt get the chance to put up a substitute. I still say tirt is the Smasher of worlds.

It is worth noting that shellder has a much easier time with subroost krow than tirt does.

Unless I'm very much mistaken, the "standard" set (for what that's worth) uses Adamant on Tirtouga, meaning that it reaches a peak of 22 Speed, and as such ties with Choice Scarf users with 15 Speed (DD Adamant Axew at +1 and DD Jolly Scraggy at +1 both also Speed tie with you and can pose quite a threat to Tirtouga), and is outsped by faster Choice Scarf users including Murkrow with Hidden Power Grass (which does take a great deal from +2 Aqua Jet), Chinchou, and Deerling (the latter two resisting Water so as to make revenge killing that much easier). This means that having 28 or 26 Speed after a boost really does mean a lot, as +2 Shellder can OHKO all of 16+ Speed Choice Scarf users.

Shellder can also beat the now-ubiquitous (apparently) Abra, which Tirtouga can not do if Sturdy has been broken, which can be a great boon.

[Chieliee]

I think the only reason why I would use Shellder over Tirtouga is because shellder actually has another (offensive) set, the Scarf set. Your opponent won't know if an attack is coming straight at him or if Shellder will setup. Even if Shellder attacks, it could still be either of the two.