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Apr 18th, 2012, 8:46:39 AM
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#1 |
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 527
Mandaue City, Philippines
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Equal BST Metagame
Finally, we can all play this meta! Those who want to try their hand at it, head over here http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/~~du...o-ip.org/lobby.
Choose Equal BST in the format. Also, when you are using the teambuilder, the changed stats are no reflected, but it does work. You can check out the new stats here. https://public.sheet.zoho.com/public...bst-metagame-1.  VS  There are many reasons why the above match-up would never happen in a competitive scene. The two differ in typing, abilities, base stat distribution, movepool, and most importantly, base stat total or BST. Arceus currently has the highest BST of 720, while Sunkern has the lowest of only 180. All other Pokemon's BST falls in between these values. The pair above is the extreme, but I'd argue that base stat total is THE biggest determining factor that makes or breaks a Pokemon. Out of 600+ Pokemon, around only a third is usable simply because of this huge difference in BST. What if all Pokemon have the same BST while retaining all its other aspects? This is what "Equal BST Metagame" is all about. Each Pokemon's stats were recalculated such that all of them will have the same BST. This is how it was done:
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Top 10 Highest Attack:           Top 10 Highest Special Attack:           Top 10 Highest Statistical Defense:           Top 10 Highest Statistical Special Defense:         Top 10 Fastest Pokemon:             KEY DIFFERENCES The general question is: Would a metagame where all Pokemon are of the same BST be an enjoyable and worthwhile metagame? Let's look at the major differences between this proposed metagame and the one we have now:
RISE OF THE NFE's If you go through this thread, one of the comments is that in this metagame, pre-evos are almost always better than their evos. In the Top 10 list of highest stats, most of them are pre-evos, such as Cranidos, Solosis, Metapod, Happiny and Magikarp. This can be attributed to their higher stat ratios. Evolved Pokemon usually have balanced, thus underwhelming, stats. Looking over the stats alone, one could say Gastly outclasses Gengar. But would it be true to say that in this meta, pre-evos generally outclass their evos? That is certainly not the case. Below are the characteristics that differentiate them, allowing each to be usable/viable despite the other.
DIFFERENCES IN TYPING Some Pokemon change typing upon evolution, and simply because of this, the pre-evo would not completely outclass its evolution. For example, Swablu (67-59-89-59-111-74) and Altaria (70-66-84-66-98-75) have very similar stats, but in terms of bulk, Swablu outclasses its evolution. However, because of the change in typing, Altaria still has the upper-hand (Dragon-Flying is arguably better than Normal-Flying. Here is a list of all Pokemon who changes typing upon evolution:
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DIFFERENCES IN ABILITIES Some Pokemon families have different abilities among them. An extreme example is Numel and Camerupt. Although they share the same typing and similar stats and movepools, their abilities are completely different. Numel has Oblivious, Simple or Own Tempo, while Camerupt has Magma Armor, Solid Rock, Anger Point. This allows them to serve completely different roles. Below is a list of Pokemon families with differences in abilities. Note that abilities they have in common are omitted from the list.
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DIFFERENCES IN MOVEPOOL Some evolved Pokemon have superior movepool over their pre-evos, such as Butterfree and Gyarados, and are thus not outclassed. FOr others, the differences in movepool are minimal, but sometimes crucial in choosing whcih Pokemon to use. For example, take the Abra (38-30-22-155-81-133) and Alakazam (52-47-42-126-80-112) case. By stats alone, Abra wins hands down. However, looking into their movepools and you'll see Alakazam has moves Abra doesn't: Confusion, Disable, Focus Blast, Future Sight, Giga Impac, Hyper Beam, Kinesis, Miracle Eye, Psybeam, Psycho Cut and Recover. It's not much, except for that Focus Blast. Abra would have to settle for the weaker HP FIghting, while Alakazam had 120 BP fighting move, and a free Hidden Power slot. Is this enough for Zam to escape Abra's shadow? I'd say we will not know for sure unless we get to play in this metagame. SOME CALCULATIONS The first time I saw the stats, I thought: "Woah, some of these Pokemon have rocket-high attacking stats! Shedinja, Cranidos, Carvanha unleash powerful physical assaults, while Solosis, Abra, and Gastly take care of the special side. It's hard to imagine anything able to take attacks from them.!" Well at least, that's what I initially thought. But when I decided to make some calcs, and it turns out it's not that bad. Shedinja @ Focus Sash Ability: Wonder Guard Adamant; 252 Atk / 252 Spe ~ Swords Dance* ~ Shadow Sneak ~ X-Scissor ~ Sucker Punch Shedinja stands out with a frightening base 175 Attack stat. With Wonder Guard granting it immunity to many attacks, it's not that hard to get a Swords Dance, netting himself 986 Attack. With Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch priority, facing this guy seems a futile task. However, such is not the case, as the calcs show below:
sample calcs
Abra @ Life Orb Ability: Magic Guard Adamant; 252 SpA / 252 Spe ~ Psychic / Psyshock ~ Shadow Ball ~ Charge Beam ~ Hidden Power Fire / Ice Abra is very notable for having the best special sweeping stats, with SpA and Spe base stats of 155 and 133, respectively. It may seem that it outclasses Alakazam entirely, but it missed out Focus Blast, which is a big thing. Note that because it does not have Focus Blast, the pink blobs Happiny (and evos) and even Cleffa stops it entirely if it opts to use Psychic over Psyshock. But even with Psyshock, there is a always a counter depending on its Hidden Power of Choice:
sample calcs
Choice Banded, Adamant, 252 Atk EVs, Head Smash from a Cranidos with base Attack stat of 164 is probably the strongest Physical attack one will ever face in this meta. It's so strong, that out of 665 Pokemon to choose from, only 19 Pokemon can avoid being 2HKOed! Thankfully each of them can retaliate well enough.
each calc assumin 252 EV's in HP and Def, with +Def nature
As of now, I'm still researching how to put up this meta. I've formally proposed this both to Pokemon Online and Pokemon Showdown, and am awaiting for feedback.
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Want to PLAY a brand new metagame? Visit this Equal BST Metagame thread and tell us what you think. Ever tried A Monotype Take on the OU Metagame? Visit the thread and share your experience. Last edited by zyrefredric; Nov 15th, 2012 at 10:15:39 PM. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 9:07:15 AM
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,305
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I'd just like to point out that the fastest pokemon is MAGIKARP. I think that in itself raises more questions than anything else.
Also, Defensively, Happiny outranks Chansey who manages to beat Blissey without Eviolite. Solosis beats out Duosion, while Reuniclus' Special attack is not even on the list. Wynaut beats Wobbuffet defensively as well. Oh, and Bronzor is listed but Bronzong isn't. That, and Cleffa and Mantyke manage to be on the list, but Clefable and Mantine are nowhere to be seen. Hell, Gastly outclasses Chandelure's Special Attack. I think i see a trend...prevos being godly compared to their evos. That, ultimately, seems kind of unbalanced. Also, i know this is just flavor, but this is Pokemon, and pokemon are supposed to grow and train to evolve to fight better. Ultimately, this means an evolved pokemon should be better than its prevo (with the exception of maybe Shedinja in some cases). If this is no longer the case, then it's not really Pokemon. [/can't stop laughing at sonic speed Magikarp]
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Just A1 for short. Apparenlty people can't spell Treadshot. Recent Scramble link Note: Yes, it is spelt wrong. Deliberately. Shut up, you're not the first to notice. Last edited by Treadshot A1; Apr 18th, 2012 at 10:54:58 AM. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 10:25:08 AM
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#3 |
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 34
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Looks very interesting, if somewhat puzzling (Magikarp the fastest, Solosis with the highest Special Attack). What if we gave everything a BST of 720, adjusting the stats upward accordingly (and stopping at 255 for each stat) ?
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Peaked at No. 1 in the 'Hackmons' category on Pokemon Showdown on 18.3.2012. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 10:31:29 AM
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#4 |
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,439
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Speed Boost Carvanha is pretty sick with 135 / 98 / 98 offensive stats. I see this being really offensive even with Eviolite because of stuff like Carvanha, Abra, Solosis, etc.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 10:38:48 AM
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#5 |
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 51
sleeping
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Would Eviolite be legal under these circumstances?
Trapinch looks like a horror, as do Smeargle, Clamperl and Hustle Darumaka.
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do you radiate hope? do you radiate doubt? Last edited by lacerta; Apr 18th, 2012 at 11:32:06 AM. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 10:45:12 AM
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#6 |
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 970
India
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Well I don't suspect a troll but with this meta game Speed Boost Carvanha with Eviolite(which should be banned) would be the most ove centralising mon in the. Whole meta game no longer will we laugh at team aqua grunts .the problem with this is that with the NFEs GF made the stats have large differces between stats which doesn't matter normally but can wreak havoc in this metagame and cause ridiculous things like Super Sonic Magikarp whose speed doubles in the rain
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Apr 18th, 2012, 10:54:39 AM
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#7 |
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Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,305
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Can i make a suggestion? Since GF made the NFE's stats on a very very different scale to that of the pokemon we see in OU (like for instance having larger differences between base stats for each stat like HP and Atk), could this be applied to Basic/Baby pokemon and then separately for Stage 1 pokemon?
By that i mean, it would seem a lot more reasonable to have Bulbasaur fight it out with Solosis, and Duosion battle it out with Chansey. If you look at my previous post, you'll see that the prevos are generally better than their evos in their best stats, and this hold true even in three stage evolution lines like Reuniclus' or Blissey's. In both cases, the babies/basics are the best, followed by the Stage 1 pokemon, and then finally the Stage 2 pokemon. So, by splitting these up, you'd get a metagame where pokemon would see more balanced usage, as right now there is little reason to use an evolved pokemon over its prevo if one exists. Why attack with Reuniclus when Solosis actually hits harder? You could say that the HP stat balances out the difference, but pokemon has always been a game where (short of VGC's goodstuffs) a certain pokemon on a team can fill a role and that role only. Since when have we ever had a pokemon who was a jack of all trades (in one set)? That's what i foresee Reuniclus ending up as: a jack of all trades compared to Solosis's Scarfed/Specs'd Special Sweeper. Reuniclus can't pull off an offensive set nearly as well as Solosis due to the changed base stats, and the only advantage left is a larger movepool, which lets Reuniclus again act as a jack of all trades, but a master of none. And when you look at the current metagame and it's teams, you'll see many choiced special sweepers, but very few if any pokemon who can pull off a jack of all trades role. [/2cents]
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Just A1 for short. Apparenlty people can't spell Treadshot. Recent Scramble link Note: Yes, it is spelt wrong. Deliberately. Shut up, you're not the first to notice. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 11:08:51 AM
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#8 |
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 67
Slovenia
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This makes no sense unless you divide them into 3 groups, distinguished by evolutionary stages.
Charmander -> 1 Charmeleon -> 2 Charizard -> 3 etc. Because the balance between the stats is different at different TBS. Btw EVs are an indicator of stage, even for pokemon who do not have a full number of 3 stages: Spinda -> 1 Tropius -> 2 Lugia -> 3
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do not believe anything blindly, do your own research to see if it makes sense. rael.org my fakemon: http://saiph-charon.deviantart.com/ |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 12:49:51 PM
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#9 |
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 261
Cardiff, Wales
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I don't understand the "prevos are better than evos, this isn't Pokιmon" argument, or why this metagame should be broken up into stages.
This is a competitive Pokιmon forum. Our primary interest is the competitive use of Pokιmon in battles against each other. Why should flavour be an issue? You're picking Solosis from a list in the teambuilder when you normally would have selected Reuniclus. I fail to see the inherent problem with that. Okay, there are some weird instances, like Magikarp's 46/23/126/34/46/184 stat distribution. Yes, that makes it the fastest thing in the metagame, and that Defence stat isn't too shabby either. But the whole point of this metagame would be to examine how Pokιmon perform when they aren't completely shafted in terms of BST. I imagine Magikarp would still be terrible due to its movepool, horrid offenses and being incredibly frail on the special side, but other normally bad Pokιmon have a chance to show that they'd be well suited to a job if they hadn't been cursed at the design stage. I for one feel that it's a great idea. As for breaking it up into stages based on evolutionary stage, that doesn't really work, on both a theoretical and practical level. It's too difficult to say where a given Pokιmon belongs based on evolutionary level since not every Pokιmon has a three stage evolution. Taking Pokιmon from different levels of play would really mess up the whole point of splitting into stages; preserving stat distribution styles between stages. Also, in practice this metagame would have a niche following at best; breaking it into three sub-metagames before it even comes into form doesn't seem too great a method of gathering together a group of people willing to participate.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 1:04:52 PM
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#10 | |
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 813
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Quote:
I think you meant "divided by" rather than "multiplied by". I should also note that we can't really make judgements about a possible metagame such as this one without playing it. When you change the stats of every Pokιmon, we have no idea what makes a base stat good and what makes one bad. There are far too many factors to take into account when analyzing what works in a metagame in which all BSTs are equal, and in which Arceus' base stats are all 77.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 1:39:21 PM
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#11 |
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 44
San Antonio, Texas
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Just from a quick cursory glance, Abra's absolutely insane: It's got 155 SpA, 81 SpDef, and 133 Speed. Admittedly it's got no physical bulk, but Substitute can help, and Magic Guard+Life Orb means it will hit like a NUKE with Psychic/Shadow Ball. The only problem is it has to rely on HP Fighting, and of course, be wary of Physical Priority attacks.
This looks to be very interesting, and having Kyogre and Groudon opens up a whole world of Swift Swim/Chlorophyll shenanigans.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 1:47:05 PM
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#12 |
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 779
Do what you want 'cause a pirate is free, you are a pirate!~~~
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Wow, Eviolite would make some of these Pokθmon freaking tanks, like Aron and Shelmet. Also, ROFL at Magikarp being the fastest Pokθmon in this tier thingy. 0_0 In almost every case, the pre-evolutions are better then their evolutions in this equal-BST metagame.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 1:53:18 PM
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#13 |
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That's Dr. Antar to you
   
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,081
DC Metro Area
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Just in case anyone was curious, something like this is easily implemented on PO using the "Level Balance" clause (it's a cornerstone of Challenge Cup).
It's for equal stats (assuming 31 IVs and neutral natures, IIRC), not equal BSTs, though. You know, in case you want to try this out using direct challenges.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 1:56:03 PM
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#14 |
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 968
GIVE ME BACK MY @
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Hippopotas with Eviolite is a terrifying prospect with those 95/108/58 defences, while Sand Rush Drilbur enjoys 119 attack off an eye watering 95 base speed in the sand to outrun just about everything.
Funnily enough, Vulpix is pretty much what Ninetales is at the moment. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 2:07:48 PM
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#15 |
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 263
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...Yeah, Eviolite's gonna be banned.
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We're by no means setting a precedent. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 2:19:15 PM
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#16 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 44
San Antonio, Texas
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Quote:
Alakazam: 52/47/42/126/80/112 Yep, sight improvement in ability to take Physical attacks, but at the cost of 29 points of Special attack and 21 points of Speed. In this metagame, Pokemon can get worse as they evolve. We just figured out why Ash's Pikachu doesn't want to evolve! Joking aside, Eviolite looks really interesting, since a First Stage Pokemon has the same BST as a Fully evolved Pokemon, but can use Eviolite and make itself much bulkier. Edit: Quote:
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Star Trek Deep Space Nine Novel: Warpath Last edited by fade5; Apr 18th, 2012 at 2:23:07 PM. Reason: Reply |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 3:53:28 PM
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#17 |
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 457
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Probably the first step that should be taken is to ban Eviolite. Not because it's "broken" or anything, but because it prevents players from having to make difficult choices. Prevos generally follow the trend of having lower defense:offense ratios than their evos, and so when we scale them up and throw Eviolite into the mix, we end up with prevos having higher effective BSTs than their evos. The point of this exercise was to make BSTs equal, not to give prevos the higher BSTs.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 5:30:51 PM
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#18 |
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Overlord of all Animals and Paintbrushes
  
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Pikachu with Light Ball............. Reqy has base 84 and 77 attacking stats to improve, and is one of the fastest around. And with those 53 / 46 / 61 it's not living much priority but who cares it gets Extremespeed!
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Apr 18th, 2012, 5:42:38 PM
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#19 | |
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Have fun with birds and bees.
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,828
Brampton, Ontario
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Also lol, Shedinja having 2 base HP is pretty sweet. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 5:47:55 PM
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#20 |
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,268
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Antar mentioned it already but I would like to make a note. Thanks for doing this research because essentially what you've done is shown which Pokιs normally (discounting natures and factoring in abilities like Hustle or items like Thick Club) have the highest respective stats in Challenge Cup (which is my favorite tier).
However I don't exactly understand why you made HP and Def or SpD into two categories respectively as opposed to 3 individual ones |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 6:36:07 PM
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#21 |
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Banned deucer.
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,466
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I would play this metagame honestly haha. FSU with a CB Diglett mothafuckazzz
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Apr 18th, 2012, 6:58:54 PM
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#22 | |
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On another note, sweet Jesus Magikarp and Feebas are fast.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 7:17:41 PM
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#23 | |
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RIP Hydreigon 2010-2013 never forget
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,634
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I had calculated something as this, but differently. All final stages would be normalized to 600 BST, stage evos to 450 and basic stages to 300; any pokιmon which already has 600+ BST would be normalized by the same proportion the final non-600 stages had been, which would put, say, Garchomp at 753, Giratina at 848 and Arceus at 903. This way, there would be at least a Standard and an Uber metagame.
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Apr 18th, 2012, 7:38:40 PM
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#24 | |||||
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 527
Mandaue City, Philippines
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Which is why there is a need to answer this question: Is it possible to implement this metagame? Can PO support a "clause" where all the Pokemon have these "BST-equalized" stats? If yes, how do go about in making this into reality, so that we could at least try it out and see if its any worth?
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Want to PLAY a brand new metagame? Visit this Equal BST Metagame thread and tell us what you think. Ever tried A Monotype Take on the OU Metagame? Visit the thread and share your experience. |
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Apr 18th, 2012, 7:52:06 PM
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#25 | |
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RIP Hydreigon 2010-2013 never forget
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,634
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You could edit the PO client (there's a .txt somewhere with the pokιmon's base stats) and upload the client somewhere.
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