Pokemon of the Week #16: Latias

[Hugin]

I don't play Sun, but...no Rapid Spin? Yes, Magic Bounce helps, but you won't be perfect with it, and many Rockers can OHKO Xatu, so you can't constantly switch him in.

[Drow]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

I don't play Sun, but...no Rapid Spin? Yes, Magic Bounce helps, but you won't be perfect with it, and many Rockers can OHKO Xatu, so you can't constantly switch him in.

It's certainly an option, but I find that Xatu beats the vast majority of rock setters. Xatu can stand up to all the defensive setters (Ferry, Forry, Skarm, etc) and has some interesting tricks against some of the offensive ones. For instance, Tyranitar hoping to set up rocks gets promptly U-Turned into Dugtrio who proceeds to smash him. Terrakion also meets a similar fate, although the outcomes may vary (pending choice sets).

In a perfect world, the team would have Xatu plus an emergency spinner, but finding room for such a thing is extremely difficult. Sun already dedicates half its team slots to necessities and near-staples. Starmie makes for an interesting choice for a situation like this, because she can both spin and function as a niche revenge killer with Bolt/Beam/Spin/Trick (awkward yet potentially useful set).

One possible exception would be if you're using Ninetales on a (...wait for it...) defensive sun team. This is a whole other can of worms though and its viability is rightfully scrutinized.

[Hemp Man]

I'd recommend Kingdra, since it can check Rain teams trying to get rid of your sun. Ninetails can also handle Ferrothorn (one of Rain teams best checks to Kingdra) for Kingra, so they suit well together.

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat Drow

a shallow movepool,

Ninetales actually doesn't have such a shallow movepool, it lacks decent offensive options, but it's a rather mediocre offensive pokemon anyways.

And regarding Scarftales, its surprise factor is obviously its biggest strength, but being rather unpredictable is a huge advantage as far as Scarfers go.

Edit: Actually I didn't know 'Tales learned Foul Play, that's not half bad.

[Hugin]

Attacks:

...

---

Covet
Dark Pulse
Dig
Energy Ball
Extrasensory
Facade
Faint Attack
Fire Blast
Fire Spin
Flail
Flare Blitz
Flame Charge
Flamethrower
Foul Play
Frustration
Heat Wave
Hex
Hidden Power
Hyper Beam
Iron Tail
Overheat
Payback
Psyshock
Quick Attack
Return
Sleep Talk
Solar Beam
Zen Headbutt

Support:

...

---

Nasty Plot
Confuse Ray
Calm Mind
Roar
Toxic
Sunny Day
Protect
Rest
Will-O-Wisp
Psych Up
Swagger
Substitute
Disable
Hypnosis
Pain Split

Ninetale's movepool, with most of the crap removed. Pulled from Bulbapedia because the Smogon list is often inaccurate. The fox has serious moves, the stats and typing are the real problem. I suppose you could always Hypnosis Politoed and hope to wear him down as he switches into you later, but that is way to weak.

[BlankZero]

I find Tales far too frail to be used offensively honestly. It's like they picked the worst Mon for the job just to give it usage. In the OU Metagame, Ninetales is best served as a Defensive Utility Mon. It has rather decent bulk when places correctly, and can live a few hits so it can cripple foes like Terrakion with WoW. It can also Stall out Politoed if played right, and if you make sure to run Ferrothorn on your team (one of the best Rain counters) you'll do quite well. Hypnosis is another option, but as inaccurate as it is (not to mention sleep clause) and Ninetales' rocks problem.... Well you know that plays out.

Now in Doubles however...

[Halcyon of Light]

You guys are going about this all wrong. Here's her best set:

Ninetales @ Choice Band
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk/4 SpD/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant

• Flare Blitz
• Iron Tail
• Return
• Zen Headbutt

See, with this spread, you can easily crush your opponents' weather starters, 2HKOing Tyranitar with Iron Tail if you actually manage to land a hit and possibly 3HKOing Defensive Politoed with Return. Isn't that great?!

In all seriousness, the only real sets to use in the post-Genesect metagame are support ones. Spreading burns can actually be pretty annoying for the opposing team, as nothing likes taking residual damage every turn, even special attackers.

[Princess Bri]

Fire Spin ninetales seems interesting.. does anyone have logs of it being used successfully?

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

Fire Spin ninetales seems interesting.. does anyone have logs of it being used successfully?

I don't see what you're accomplishing with Fire Spin, really.

If you intend to use it with Sunny Day, LO 252 Neutral SolarBeam deals max 75% to SpecsToed, so it's not even a 2hko, while SpecsToad OHKOes after rocks under sun. ScarfToed outspeeds your Sunny Day and OHKOes you with a surf / pump.

CB Tyranitar OHKOes you even if you burn him.

What do you actually want to trap with it?

[Hemp Man]

@The offensive movepool that was posted: I don't think half the moves on there are notable, I mean seriously, DIG???

Here are the ones I'd say are notable, although most of the time STAB Drought Fire Blast outdamages them anway:
Dark Pulse
Energy Ball
Extrasensory
Fire Blast
Fire Spin
Foul Play
Hex
Hidden Power
Overheat
Psyshock
Sleep Talk
Solar Beam

[Halcyon of Light]

The Fire Spin set seems like a pretty big waste. It's completely outclassed by the Heatran trapper set, isn't it? Why would you use Ninetales when you could just use Heatran an actually get some KO's with it?

[Onicon]

The support set is by far the most useful set you can play nowadays. Under sun, your sub survives Scalds, with is enough to force them out and to spread burn.

Fire Spin is pretty nifty in theory, but somewhere between WoW and actual stalling is not enough room for trapping. Remember that you have to apply burn status beforehand once it comes in, but in rain you take too much damage. And once you disabled Scald, Politoed user will not be stupid enough to let it stay in. It works with Toxic Spikes, but then you have to deal with Tentacruel somehow.
Alternatively, use something like Fire Blast or Flamethrower to break the subs of Gengar, otherwise you degrade Ninetales to setup fodder. Sunny Day even has its uses when you don't have Solar Beam with you because it drives Politoed out (but it leaves you as Taunt bait once the opponent has figured out).

And by the way: We don't think the support set is supposed to survive for too long. It survives just long enough to win the weather war for you. It has to make use of its superior speed to stall Politoed until they are in Dugtrio range. CB-Tar usually loose when you have Disable, regular Tars cannot break the substitute with Crunch alone.

And Latios is a son of a bitch to deal with, because Ninetales cannot hurt it properly, in contrast to Toeds Ice Beam and Tar in general. Sun teams generally don't have many teamslots for free, so you need to circimvent it somehow.

[The Unlucky one]

Hey Guys, can we talk about pokemon that benefit from ninetales i.e. sun or just the pokemon itself?

[LilOuOn]

The aim of this project is to help newer OU players recognize viable Pokemon and sets, in order to aid them when team building. This is done by exploring and discussing a new OU Pokemon each week. If you are unsure what to discuss, here are some good guidelines;
-The Pokemon's place in the metagame
-Some viable sets of the Pokemon. Creative sets are highly encouraged, but no gimmicks please.
-Share your experiences with the Pokemon.

This is the main purpose of this thread, i don't think that talking about pokemons that benefit from sun is a good idea because the topic is Ninetales (not drought) . Hope i helped!

[Ninetale3]

I am starting to feel like Ninetales is pokemon you have to experiment with eventually since the analysis is kinda lacking consisting of only two death fodder sets. I think ninetales' potential lies in if the set can aid the team, outside of eventually killing itself for a free switch, even if it is not a standard sets more than any other pokemon in ou. Ninetales really is a pokemon you must play unconventionally if you want to succeed with it.

Offensive: Fire blast and over heat immediately come to mind since they can pack a punch. Outside of that it must run through trail and error to find the right moves and item for a team.

Defensive: Ninetales packs some interesting moves for support. Particularly ghost support moves. However it must use sunny day and will o wisp to keep drought up. So you only get two moves slots left to work with.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat LilOuOn

This is the main purpose of this thread, i don't think that talking about pokemons that benefit from sun is a good idea because the topic is Ninetales (not drought) . Hope i helped!

But then again, Ninetales is Drought. If we're not discussing Ninetales' teammates, what are we discussing? How much it sucks? I think we've already established that.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat Hemp Man

@The offensive movepool that was posted: I don't think half the moves on there are notable, I mean seriously, DIG???

Here are the ones I'd say are notable, although most of the time STAB Drought Fire Blast outdamages them anway:
*snipped*

I forgot to remove Dig, but most everything else was me just not wanting to remove anything that wasn't utter shit. I mean, Tales is bad enough that people are honestly discussing Fire Spin in attempts to find something useful, so the line for "crap" is apparently fairly low.

I'd recommend Overheat over Fire Blast in most cases. Slightly more accurate/powerful, and you'll probably be switching out after one attack anyway.

[alexwolf]

Again, this is what the Fire Spin set does:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=221

And obviously what it has over Heatran is that it doesn't need Heatran, in other words it tries to win the weather war by spending only one team slot.

[Onicon]

We don't deny the usefulness of Fire Spin (we use it for ourselves), but this move is nonetheless very unreliable. Remember, that you have to apply WoW beforehand or afterwards. Probably beforehand because in order to disable Toeds water moves you have to spend two turns; include the initial turn where you trap it and there will not be much time left. On defensive Toed, that makes whopping 12,5% to 25% worth of residual damage, on Specs-Toed it makes 37,5% to 56,25% plus 25% to 50% worth of Struggle damage (five turns kill Specs Toed).
Yeah, it is pretty much covered that you have to get Politoed in twice, once for WoW, and the second time for the actual trapping. Not that it's difficult because Politoed pretty much always comes in Ninetales. But then we have to hit twice with moves with less accuracy than 90, which, of course, sucks.
Don't get us wrong, we like it when people underestimate Fire Spin. Generally, people keep switching Politoed into Ninetales even after having been burned and after Fire Spin has been revealed after it has missed once (or thrice, in some matches). Just in case it is still better to have a trapper at hand, just in case.

[Shokwav]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Again, this is what the Fire Spin set does:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=221

And obviously what it has over Heatran is that it doesn't need Heatran, in other words it tries to win the weather war by spending only one team slot.

But Heatran is near staple status on Sun teams. He sets up SR, sponges Dracos, and Magmatraps rain threats. I'd much rather(and do) just use Heatran for trapping, considering he's so much better at it.

[Rayquaza_]

Ninetales' only good set is the Sunny Day set, which allows it to do the one and only thing it can do: sun support.
Any other set is Dugtrio/Politoed/Tyranitar/Heatran bait.

To be brutally honest, a good sun team doesn't need Ninetales. In fact, I'd say that a solid Sunny Day user in the long run will benefit your sun team more.

Just slap Sunny Day onto something that that other weather abusers would never dare switching in against and you're set.

[Ninetale3]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayquaza_

Ninetales' only good set is the Sunny Day set, which allows it to do the one and only thing it can do: sun support.
Any other set is Dugtrio/Politoed/Tyranitar/Heatran bait.

Okay There is more to ninetales than just sun support and die. I have won plenty weather wars with ninetales that never even involved sunny day in them. Hell the only ninetales sets I ever used are choiced sets and those actually contribute than the standard sets. Also dugtrio is bad news for any weather inducer, especially reversal dugtrio.

[Shurtugal]

Politied and Hippo really couldn't care less about Dugtrio js

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat Shurtugal

Politied and Hippo really couldn't care less about Dugtrio js

Doesn't fair too well against Tyranitar either if Stealth Rock is up

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 156 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (57.36 - 67.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 382-450 (180.18 - 212.26%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Also, in case someone wants to say "oh but you can just switch"

252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Pursuit vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio: 192-226 (90.56 - 106.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

In fact, all of Tyranitar's moves OHKO, with Pursuit being by far the weakest.

So Dugtrio doesn't really help win the weather war without Reversal or Choice Band.

As for Ninetales, the best set is the Sunny Day set because it gives you full control over the battle and favorable "weather-momentum" (meaning that you have your own weather up when their weather inducer is in, which means that you have at least one turn of guaranteed sun). The Sub-Nasty Plot set with Fire Blast and Hidden Power Ice can also be effective too thanks to Ninetales's pretty great speed, so long as Heatran and other fire types (but +2 Fire Blast in the sun will still do a ton to them) have been taken care of.

[Princess Bri]

The Pokemon of the Week is changing later today. Submit any final thoughts about Ninetales.