Popularity Poll for the Defense of the Titans Project

[alexwolf]

Important: Alexwolf has posted the new Defense Of The Titans Project MarkII so please feel free to continue all relative discussion over in the fresh link above.

Hi everyone! I created this thread because i want to see people's opinions about the Defense of the Titans Project. This project was made with the purpose to increase stall's usage and explore its potential in the current metagame, because stall as a playstyle was having a hard time. The project was something like a Dark Horse one for stall, which means that if stall stopped being the underdog then the thread will no longer have a purpose.

So what i want from you is to tell me whether you would like the project to continue or not, and if possible your reasoning. You want it to continue/stop because you liked/hated the idea, because stall is/isn't the underdog anymore, because my role as a leader of the project was/wasn't good enough or for any other reason? This poll will play a major role to my decision of contnuing this project or not so pelase post only if you have a strong opinion about the Project and not only because you hate stall or similar stupid reasons.

[Lady Alex]

The project was a success imo, in that it demonstrated, even if it may not be quite as effective in the metagame as offense teams, stall is viable nonetheless. With Genesect hopefully leaving OU, I think another iteration of this project is justifiable, since, if Genesect gets banned, the implications for stall are pretty significant, and a project like this will allow us to see how far stall progresses in viability as a result.

[Zacchaeus]

The idea was good but I feel like the regulations weren't flexible enough. I'd just prefer to have more offensive capability on a stall team than these but I guess it is Defense instead of Stall of the Ancients

[Remedy]

I agree with Zacchaeus.
It was more than stall in my opinion.
Not saying that I did not enjoy the project (even if I didn't have time etc to try to "peak").
But it limited pretty damn hard the team building, and being forced to EVs stuff like Latias full bulky is heartbreaking :\

I'm not against it, and I may try it harder in the future.
So voting for it to remains, just so more people can try it.

[Neliel]

I think that the project should continue.
People needs to understand that defensive teams are enough usable, maybe not the best playstile at the moment but still effective, and if this project can help, then go on with an another session.

[Deluks917]

I also agree the conditions were too restrictive.

[Kidogo]

It seems pretty clear (and I agree with the sentiment) that the project should continue, with the restrictions being the debating point. What if we just institute something like posting your laddering team for approval? I think it will be pretty clear to us what counts as a stall team with offensive EVs for specific purposes vs. a not-full stall team.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the project, it should definitely continue even if the regulations need a little refining.

[ssbbm]

i dont think the ev restrictions were good because it kinda disallowed stuff like quickstall, and even stall staples (imo) like cm latias were disallowed! although it really is hard to come up with objective measures of stalliness so

i dont think it shoudl be discontinued i liked it!

[alexwolf]

Guys the restrictions existed for a reason. To ensure that we play stall. I still allowed for one offensive Pokemon and any Speed EVs on any other. If i allowed two offensive Pokemon it wouldn't be stall it would be defensive minded balance. Btw Speed was not limited to any poke so i don't see how quick stall was unviable.

Here is an idea. Any team that doesn't fit the requirements but is considered as a stall team can be sent to me via PM/VM, and i will discuss about it with some people i trust to see if i will allow it or no... Good idea y/n?

[Princess Bri]

I liked it, but not being able to use CM Latias or Curse Quagsire restricted the project's effectiveness; however, the project did shine in showing stall is actually viable! I suppose that influencing more diversity in such a stale metagame is definitely worth having the project again. More flexibility toward teambuilding needs to be added to make this project ideal. Maybe players have to show their team to either Pocket, you, and whoever else wants to help out with this and you could approve / deny their teams so you wouldn't have Bulky SD Terrakions.

Nonetheless, Pocket and alexwolf did an excellent job on this! Good job guys and I hope it happens in December!

EDIT; Ninja'd by Alex.

[Pocket]

Didn't Latias fit the criteria of stall defined by the project?

[Princess Bri]

It's counted as your offensive mon' which is really annoying.

[GatoDelFuego]

Jesus I've been busy. I cut out of the project like a month ago or something and I feel terrible about it. School just does that to you I suppose. There's absolutely no reason to discontinue this, it really encourages more creativity and diversity to people across the metagame. People are very helpful and can give focused team advice. It was a great experience.

When alexwolf and I discussed it, we decided that setup moves should be decided as offense. If you have a shell smash cloyster that is 252 HP 252 spe, with a bulky DD mence, with a 252 hp 252 spe CM latias, is it stall? Unfortunately, it really isn't. We came to the decision that it would be more worthwhile to close all the loopholes in the project that were starting to be exploited, while unfortunately making a few pokes unviable for the project. However, you have to agree it's better to not have latias or sableye than have a "bulky" setup sweeper team count as stall.

[Ewil]

Originally Posted by Fat Princess Bri

I liked it, but not being able to use CM Latias or Curse Quagsire restricted the project's effectiveness; however, the project did shine in showing stall is actually viable! I suppose that influencing more diversity in such a stale metagame is definitely worth having the project again. More flexibility toward teambuilding needs to be added to make this project ideal. Maybe players have to show their team to either Pocket, you, and whoever else wants to help out with this and you could approve / deny their teams so you wouldn't have Bulky SD Terrakions.

Nonetheless, Pocket and alexwolf did an excellent job on this! Good job guys and I hope it happens in December!

EDIT; Ninja'd by Alex.

QFT

anyway, i didn't partecipate to the project, but i love stall teams and i've enjoyed play some of the ones proposed by the players peaked high in this project. The proposal to control the teams by a jury of moderators without any particular restrictions (execpt playing a stall team, obv lol) and being approved/denied is the best way to go for the next month.

This is a real good project ! :D

[Magma]

Yes, this challenge should definitely be continued (I'm a little biased because I was just about to update my team lol;) however, I agree with Bri. I think the challenge would be more effective if we allowed more stall breakers. Personally, I think we should ban offensive Pokemon based on a combination of boosting moves and EV distribution, rather than them individually.

Why am I so gung-ho for stall breakers on defensive-orientated teams? Simple, the goal of a stall team isn't just to stall, its to tear down an opposing team before it tears down yours. To do this, you need some form of offense. Yes, even stall teams need offense. Whether it's ALL 3 hazards+spin-blocker or stall breakers like Mew, Sableye, Reuniclus, or Conkeldurr, you have to do some sort of damage, otherwise you'll have no way of breaking down opposing stall teams. But how do we allow stall breakers without opening the flood gates to sweepers? I came up with a formula that follows my original statement of banning Pokemon based on a combination of their boosting move and EV distribution:

If your offensive mon uses a boosting move that increases ONE offensive stat (Atk, SpAtk, Spd) like Calm Mind, Bulk Up, and Curse, then that Pokemon can ONLY have EVs in ONE offensive stat. This keeps common offensive weapons found on semi-stall teams like Conkeldurr and Latias from being banned, but bans the threats found on offensive teams like standard Calm Mind Keldeo, Latios, and Landorus.

If your offensive mon uses a boosting move that increases TWO offensive stat at once like Dragon Dance, Swords Dance, Quiver Dance, Nasty Plot, Shell Smash, then that Pokemon can NOT have ANY EVs in an offensive stat NOR a positive offensive nature. This would ban things like Bulky Terrakion (who I'm guilty of trying to sneak in the challenge), but still allow stall breakers like Sub DD Dragonite and Bulky QD Volcarona.

Yeah, a team with Bulky Dragonite and Bulky Volcarona isn't a full blown stall team and more of a balanced one, but semi-stall/balance teams still have to put a lot of effort into defense and stalling. These type of teams also bring creativity to the metagame and encourage people to stop remaking the wheel with the same dumbed-down Volt-Turn-Trap/Deoxys-D+Gengar hyper offensive teams. Also, semi-stall and balanced teams are much easier to make then full-stall teams and keep the challenge open to potential challengers who aren't the best team-builders.

Just my two cents. But still, this is a great challenge alexwolf! Hopefully it will be extended to next month.

[Ryuuki]

I realy hope that this challenge can continue so I can officually be a part of it. But also becouse full stall teams are viable but hard to play.

It just feels realy weird that my cm, wish support latias is counted as an offencive pokemon when it only attacked like 5 times in 10 matches xD

Still a realy nice and insperrating project Alexwolf =)

[Pocket]

Nice suggestions, Magma, but a bit too complicated. What about we simply prohibit boosting moves that increases offensive stats (Atk / SpA / Spe) by a total of 2 stages on our defensive mon? Calm Mind and Bulk Up would be permissible on stall mons this way, whereas Swords Dance, Rock Polish, Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, would not.

EDIT: Well CM Wishrachi serves a defensive / utility role, so it kind of fits.

[alexwolf]

The problem with this is that a team of SubCM Jirachi, SubCM Latias and Scarf Terrakion would be ok under those requirements but wouldn't be a real stall team.

Maybe allow for only one mon with stat up moves that increase offensive stats by only one stage (Bulk Up, Calm Mind, etc) except from the one offensive Pokemon that each team is allowed to have, which can use whatever it wants anyway? For example a team can have CM Latias + Scarf Terrakion but not Scarf Terrakion + DD Dragonite. But then there is the possibility of a player chosing SubDDnite as their offensive mon, and SubCM Jirachi as the mon with the defensive stat up move. Would a team with those two pokes be a stall team? I think not.

[GatoDelFuego]

Honestly the only way to allow set-uppers is a case-by-case basis. The rules we have set in right now work great, but if you want to use scarf terrakion and Wish CM rachi, then you should get some exception. WishCM rachi is stall, SubCM is not. It's far less complicated to get something like this approved for each team than a complex set of rules built to allow these 2-3 pokemon.

[Lady Alex]

Wish CM Jirachi is no more stall oriented than Sub CM Jirachi. At the end of the day, they both want to sweep your opponent's team. Disallowing set up moves that increase offensive stats would be an easy fix. Otherwise, we risk people being able to get away with something like "bulky offense."

[GatoDelFuego]

They may want to "sweep" the opponent, but that's a relative term. Every stall team has an opportunity to "stallsweep", it's just about playing defensive and whittling things down. A WishCM jirachi or a curse quagsire is about making yourself stick around first and slowly kill the opponent. They focus on recovery more than offense. The only problem with allowing these moves is it lets in conkeldurr and, I dunno, scrafty. That's why any team that wants to use these should have to get approval first, imo.

[Magma]

Pocket, that was almost word-for-word my original suggestion to alexwolf. But after I thought about it, we have to include EV distribution (and maybe the held-item as well) because that's the only way to separate the CM sweepers (Keldeo, Latios, and Landorus) from the CM stall-breakers (Latias, Jirachi, and Reuniclus.)

You make great points alexwolf, so what if we were to simply things and just allow 2 offensive Pokemon with the limitations I suggested and Pocket's suggestion of banning the moves that increase 2 offensive stats? The new rules could look something like this:

Rules

---

Each team is allowed 2 offensive Pokemon (with limitations)

A Pokemon is classified as offensive if it meets any of the following criteria:

• has more than a total of 50 EVs in its offensive stats (Atk, SpAtk, Spd)
• has a stat-boosting move
• has an attack-boosting item

Limitation #1 If an offensive Pokemon has a stat-boosting move, it can only have EVs in one offensive stat

Limitation #2 Stat-boosting moves that increase two offensive stats at once are banned (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Growth, Dragon Dance, Quiver Dance, Shell Smash, etc)

Limitation #3 If an offensive Pokemon has an attack-boosting item, it can NOT have EVs in any offensive stat (Choice Scarf is NOT included as an attack-boosting item)

Gato, I think we need a set of defined rules (rather than have 2 or 3 people say what's stall and what isn't.) The rules I suggested aren't complex at all - they just give the criteria of an offensive mon and put 3 limitations on them. But if most people feel that stall-breakers have no place on stall teams, then I'll gladly delete my post.

[Pocket]

I don't understand the significance of Limitation #1 and #3, mind providing examples? This is a solid draft, though!

[Magma]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

I don't understand the significance of Limitation #1 and #3, mind providing examples? This is a solid draft, though!

Sure thing.

Limitation #1 bans the CM/BU sweepers that usually have their Spe AND Atk/SpA maxed out, while still allowing the CM/BU stall-breakers that usually have one offensive stat maxed out. For example, standard CM Keldeo/Latios (with 252 SpA / 252 Spe EVs) would be banned since they have EVs in 2 offensive stats, Special Attack and Speed. Standard CM Jirachi/Latias (with 252 HP / 252 Spe) wouldn't be banned, because they only have EVs in 1 offensive stat, Speed.

Limitation #3 bans all Choice Band, Choice Specs, and Life Orb users who try to get cute with things like bulky offensive Scizor/Keldeo/Tornadus-T (with 252 HP / 252 any other offensive stat), but still keeps standard CM Reuniclus eligible since it doesn't have any offensive EVs.

PM me if it's still not clear Pocket, I'm a terrible writer lol.

[jiggz16]

So would Scarf NOT count as an attack boosting item? I mean, according to the proposed rules, speed is considered an offensive stat, so an item that boosts that would be banned under Limitation 3, which I personally don't find... attractive? Whatever, I would like it made clear whether or not Choice Scarf would count or not. Because Scarf Gyara on rain stall was awesome in the middle of BW1.