Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[green gadgets]

Why should he change Baton Pass against U-Turn? When Celebi switch out of U-Turn he didn't get damage from Pursuit.

With U-Turn Celebi can Damage Ttyar, for a bit and can safely switch out.
0 Atk Celebi (-Atk) U-turn vs 0 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 24,63% - 29,33%

[ClubbingSealCub]

Originally Posted by Fat green gadgets

Why should he change Baton Pass against U-Turn? When Celebi switch out of U-Turn he didn't get damage from Pursuit.

With U-Turn Celebi can Damage Ttyar, for a bit and can safely switch out.
0 Atk Celebi (-Atk) U-turn vs 0 HP/0 Def Tyranitar: 24,63% - 29,33%

If Celebi U-turns on the same turn Tyranitar uses pursuit, it will take the full, 80 BP damage Pursuit; and will most likely be KOed.

BP fixes this issue, ince it avoids Pursuit, but it's not a good idea to use it alongside Perish Song IMO.

[green gadgets]

Oh, really? I thought Pursuit deals only doubled damage when he switch out reguardly.

[vanillazzz]

If the foe Pokémon uses pursuit on the same turn U-turn/Volt switch is used, pursuit will deal normal damage if the foe is faster, or double damage if the foe is slower than the user.

[ganj4lF]

We either choose BPass + Thunder Wave or another support move for the last slot, leaving exclusively on Heatran the job of countering Kyu-B, or go Perish Song + U-Turn. I don't really like Baton Passing the Song onto the switch-in, that forces us to switch more without a real reason, thus being crippled even more by eventual SR / Spikes / enemy VoltTurning.

Also, @dragontamer, I don't really see how Tornadus is an issue right now. If they want to use it they must dedicate 2 team slots (Politoed and Tornadus), and since they can't pick two things "last", we'll have plenty of times to pick a Tornadus counter. Politoed makes Keldeo work better, so it's a double-sided sword, and if they don't pick it as last pokemon there is also the threat of a Kingdra counterpick. Yeah, Tornadus can run Rain Dance itself, but I dont think it's something we should be afraid of, currently.

I'd like to use this post to wish a Merry Christmas for you all guys that are making this project awesome, for you random readers and OU subforum lurkers, and to everyone on Smogon that may read these lines.

[dragontamer74pe]

I'm just saying as tornados only really needs 3 moves so the fourth can go into rain dance and as team 1 get the final pick they can choose politoad or not depending on our team and tornados is really hard to counter without a momentum losing poke or a poke with bad synergy with keldeo. I also know it helps keldeo but if they got politoad then that's another okish check (it can't do much back but can scout) and heatran is crippled by rain.

[TyranitarAbuser]

Just wanted to say that if we use BP, we become a Taunt target (a lot of random things can learn Taunt, e.g. Haxorus).

If we pick Celebi, we no doubt have both FWG and Celetran on the third pick, both very good cores and reasons why I am favoring Celebi. However, we may need a Scizor check/counter, since that gives us problems and helps team one a lot.

Scizor can not only Pursuit our Celebi, it as a STAB move (U-turn) that our Onionhead (saying Celebi seems a little boring by now) is quad weak to. It also has coverage in terms of Superpower to deal with Heatran and priority. Not to mention that it forms a Voltturn core with Rotom

[Melee Mewtwo]

That and there are a lot of powerful offensive threats that have no problem switching into Celebi. Perish Song isn't going to matter for powerhouses like Salamence or Heracross only need one turn to wreck havoc. A weak U-Turn won't really cut it that much as Celebi can't afford to be spamming it all the time anymore than it can risk giving a free switch-in by using one of its other moves. It counters Team 1's picks but isn't hard at all to counter. Like almost any defensive mon, it's not putting any pressure on the opposing team's future picks.

[TyranitarAbuser]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

That and there are a lot of powerful offensive threats that have no problem switching into Celebii. Perish Song isn't going to matter for powerhouses like Salamence or Heracross only need one turn to wreck havoc. A weak U-Turn won't really cut it that much as Celebii can't afford to be spamming it all the time anymore than it can risk giving a free switch-in by using one of its other moves. It counters Team 1's picks but isn't hard at all to counter. Like almost any defensive mon, it's not putting any pressure on the opposing team's future picks.

The reason why I suggested ThunderWave over Perish Song. It will cripple sweepers Perish Song can't handle. U-turn really isn't to deal damage, it is to gain momentum. Overall, Celebi can handle Rotom-W and Landorus, Mons that can really cause us problems.

[ganj4lF]

Well, those issues are mostly solved by changing Perish Song in Thunder Wave, I guess. Nothing not named Sableye is fast enough to Taunt Celebi after being paralyzed. Perish Song was intended to have an additional answer to Cube, however if everyone agrees that it makes us much more vulnerable to counterpicks and Thunder Wave is the way to solve this problem, I'll edit my submission immediately. The Scizor weakness is unavoidable if we choose Celebi, but many of the other proposals have the same problem, and tbh, worrying too much about Scizor when we have both Keldeo and Heatran is an exaggeration, at least to me.

However, I don't really agree on this "hate" towards defensive pokemons: do you think we should avoid defensive picks at all costs? What if a defensive pick covers most of (or everything, like Deo-D the last time) the oposing team? Are we better to delay all the defensive picks for later to ensure putting enough pressure on Team 1? I don't think so. Picking all the powerhouses now and "be forced" to either go all out offensive or to pick defensive things later is a disadvantage since they can pick a solid defensive core to stop our "early-chosen" offensive pokemons. Of all the defensive picks we can do now, Celebi offers flexibility in the form of status absorption and U-Turning / BPass, and this should make sure that with proper prediction it doesn't become set-up bait. It also stops everything in Team 1 and may become difficult to switch into if we give it T-Wave. I don't really see how this is a bad pick, even if it doesn't put a big offensive pressure on the other team.

Not saying that we should pick Celebi at all costs, your Abomasnow pick is interesting (although I don't like it), but we should be a little more open minded towards defensive things, at least IMHO.

[Melee Mewtwo]

I feel defensive picks should be avoided if possible. Yes, they are good at countering but they are also very easy to counter. This lets the opposing team snowball theirs picks by stacking more and more offensive mons that will be difficult to ultimately counter. (especially in such an anti-Stall metagame like this one) Deo-D is a quite a different situation from Celebi. First, it was the last pick so there wasn't a worry about it being countered. (which is why I feel Team 1 should save their last pick solely for their hazards lead as that avoids counter leading and maximizes efficiancy) Secondly, Hazards is harder to play around than T-Wave. It is fairly easy to pick a dedicated paralysis absorber (without Perish Song, Kyurem-B has no problem switching in and setting up so Celebii is pretty much already countered) and continue playing with little worry. On the other hand, hazards are directly helping in the goal of this project by weakening those counters making some of them just checks. It is also more to get rid of or avoid as it requires the use of a Spinner (which has to find the turn to pull it off while getting past any spin blockers) or a Magic Bouncer (which are fairly defensive themselves and can be beat by appropriate coverage moves). Thirdly, defensive mons are easier to trap. Sure some can escape, but very many can't without having to bend backwards by opting for Shed Shell or running special spreads and movesets. Even with Baton Pass, Celebi can't avoid a Specs Gothitelle's Signal Beam once it manages to switch-in.

Scizor is actually a very big deal as it can do massive damage to both Heatran and Keldeo with Superpower while forming an epic Volt-Turn core and adding a Pursuit trapper. (Abomasnow actually doesn't have a problem with Scizor as Substitute lets it scout which move it is going to be locked into while taking out half its HP with Focus Punch. Worst case scenario, it is annoying once but not twice)

Calcs

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 410-484 (126.93 - 149.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Superpower vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 235-277 (72.75 - 85.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

("Hate" is a strong word. I actually LOVE Stall and prefer it to any other play-style, just not in this project.)

[ganj4lF]

Maybe "hate" wasn't the correct word (sorry, that's probably caused by a not-so-exact translation from Italian), but you get the point. Obviously adding defensive threats gives up offensive potential, and they're "easily countered", but the fact that two-three slots of their team are seriously compromised by a single pick should make up for that easily. The Scizor threat is real, but what if we Baton Pass into Magnezone? We can easily react to that while mantaining offensive pressure, and with a pokemon that is currently not that bad for their current lineup (it can hit Cube with Flash Cannon, and Lando won't have fun trying to set up on it / switching in). Maybe it's just me being short-sighted (prolly) but I think my points have some sort of relevance.

I'll change U-Turn -> BPass and Perish Song -> T-Wave to lessen the likelihood of becoming set-up bait after lunch.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Well, Scizor is actually really annoying for Magnezone to trap as it can't come in Superpower (like Keldeo and Heatran) and U-Turn (which Celebii gives strong reason for Scizor to spam) dodges the trap while scouting and dealing damage. ChoiceZone also risks the chance of letting Lando get easy set up on a Electric move or HP Fire while SubCharge is pretty useless in general. (it's only niche is if the other team is silly enough to give it something it can set up on super easy)

Yes, a defensive mon can counter both of their choices but so can some offensive mons as well. If we have a offensive mon we can choose I would much rather opt for him than a defensive one for the reasons I listed.

(No problem. In retrospect, I should have added a ":P" to tone down the unintended seriousness behind that comment.)

[TyranitarAbuser]

@Melee Mewtwo: I would also opt for an offensive mon over a defensive one. However, two major threats (Rotom with ThunderWave and pseudo recovery in the form of Pain Split and Rock Polish Landorus with the ability to wreck teams with one or two boosts) that can threaten our team walled by one poke is too good to pass up. Moreover, I cont possibly see an offensive poke fitting this situation (especially with Twave on Rotom).

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Well, Scizor is actually really annoying for Magnezone to trap as it can't come in Superpower (like Keldeo and Heatran) and U-Turn (which Celebii gives strong reason for Scizor to spam) dodges the trap while scouting and dealing damage. ChoiceZone also risks the chance of letting Lando get easy set up on a Electric move or HP Fire while SubCharge is pretty useless in general. (it's only niche is if the other team is silly enough to give it something it can set up on super easy)

We can just go with a custom set if it comes to that.Chople berry Magnezone FTW!

(Yes, a defensive mon can counter both of their choices but so can some offensive mons as well. If we have a offensive mon we can choose I would much rather opt for him than a defensive one for the reasons I listed. )

I agree but I don't see an offensive mon cover team1 as good as celebi atm.Lati twins could if Rotom-W didn't have T-wave.

[dragontamer74pe]

Well obviously most of the pokes here have flaws.
Celebi: Weak to a lot of trappers. Easy setup for a few pokes.
Latias: Weak sort of to trappers but sub makes counter trapping easy but not amazing coverage.
Abomnasnow: scizor beats it as it can see if abomnasnow will focus punch switch to a poke who can take it then kill as it'd have lost its sub to u-turn. Also hail does nothing really for us and in a way benefits them and Kyurem.
Skarmory:rotom-w can counter it no problem and is easy to counter. Also I think skarm is better at setting up spikes as it gets more free turns but again easy to counter.
All in all I think the psychics would be best as they can beat all of team 1s pokes in some way and are sort of difficult to counter. They also can escape the trappers as latias can sub on switch to scizor and then as latias switches the sub takes pursuit damage magnezone gets a free switch in and celebi can baton pass/u-turn. Yes abomnasnow can sub but hail is actually bas for us.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

@Melee Mewtwo: I would also opt for an offensive mon over a defensive one. However, two major threats (Rotom with ThunderWave and pseudo recovery in the form of Pain Split and Rock Polish Landorus with the ability to wreck teams with one or two boosts) that can threaten our team walled by one poke is too good to pass up. Moreover, I cont possibly see an offensive poke fitting this situation (especially with Twave on Rotom).

Well there is Abomasnow who can take whatever Rotom-W wants to throw at it including T-Wave (since 60 base speed is already slow). Not even Landorus can 2HKO if SR isn't up and while Abomasnow can cut off its sweep with priority Ice Shard. (which means, even if it can't switch into Lando anymore it can still be kept to cut off a sweep)

Originally Posted by Fat dragontamer74pe

Well obviously most of the pokes here have
Abomnasnow: scizor beats it as it can see if abomnasnow will focus punch switch to a poke who can take it then kill as it'd have lost its sub to u-turn. Also hail does nothing really for us and in a way benefits them and Kyurem.
Yes abomnasnow can sub but hail is actually bas for us.

Neither team is happy about Hail nor are they bothered much either. As for Scizor, if the best it can do is U-Turn out for something else (not a good idea for Team 1 ATM) to eat a Focus Punch then that goes to show that it is a horrible counter for Abomasnow and wouldn't be worth the pick. (Which is what we are shooting for since Scizor+Rotom is bad news)

[G-Von]

Sableye@Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EV's: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 SpD
Nature: Calm
-Will-O-Wisp
-Taunt
-Recover
-Night Shade

This thing. With priority WoW and Taunt, it completely hinders Kyurem-B. It also puts an end to a potential sweep by Landorus and can stall out Rotom-W. It also gives Team 2 a potential spinblocker since Team 1 will inevitably have to have a spinner if/when a hazard setter is chosen. Also, by setting up Taunt on a pokemon who relies on setting up will potentially force it out, thus giving Team 2 a free switch to whoever they want. Priority Recover is so annoying to deal with, yet so funny to accomplish. Night Shade is to deal continuous damage.

Calcs:
0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 112-133 (36.84 - 43.75%) -- 99.76% chance to 3HKO
+1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 169-199 (55.59 - 65.46%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148+ SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Sableye: 183-216 (60.19 - 71.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Sableye: 269-317 (88.48 - 104.27%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO

The only one that is really threatening is Landorus. Rotom-W and Kyurem-B, even at +1, can be stalled out through smart play. BTW, Rotom-W's Volt Switch only does 31.9-37.82% while Lando's HP Ice only does 35.52 - 41.77%. Good prediction will lead to good results.

[TyranitarAbuser]

TBH, I really don't like the fact that Celebi gives up U-turn for Baton Pass. Most set up sweepers make have Lum Berry and they are also capable of running Taunt, such as Haxorus. They can easily take a Twave because of Lum Berry, Taunt, and we are forced to:

A) switch out and let it get a free DD
B) stay in, do pitiful damage with Giga Drain and let it boost to +6 and sweep our team.

Also, don't forget that U-turn gives us momentum and allows us to escape from Goth.

[ganj4lF]

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

Also, don't forget that U-turn gives us momentum and allows us to escape from Goth.

While I can see the other arguments, this is completely pointless since Baton Pass does exactly the same, just without a little bit of damage which probably won't matter most of the times. I cannot see how U-Turn solves Gothitelle while Baton Pass doesn't. If we go Celebi, we must choose between Pursuit protection (BPass) or Taunt protection (U-Turn), however, I'm largely much more concerned about trappers since your proposed Haxorus set (and similars) is heavily specialized, need both Taunt and a Lum Berry, can be revenged at +1 by Keldeo after very little prior damage, and is easier to react than, say, Scizor / TTar.

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

TBH, I really don't like the fact that Celebi gives up U-turn for Baton Pass. Most set up sweepers make have Lum Berry and they are also capable of running Taunt, such as Haxorus.

You're assuming Celebi is going to Baton Pass whenever it wants to switch which it not the case.Letting something set up is better for us rather than getting pursuit trapped.We have a scarfer for a reason.We can put additional Revenge killers if necessary.

A) switch out and let it get a free DD
B) stay in, do pitiful damage with Giga Drain and let it boost to +6 and sweep our team.

I don't see U-turn or Perish song doing us any favours here.3 turns is all haxorus needs to do it's damage since it'll get revenge killed within that time anyway.Thunder wave forces Haxorus to run a Lum berry and cripple several other switch ins.Don't forget Perish song only helps against long term set up sweepers or stallers.

Also, don't forget that U-turn gives us momentum and allows us to escape from Goth.

Baton Pass is exactly the same as U-turn except without the damage,which doesn't really matter.Thunder wave actually gives us more momentum than Perish Song.Baton Pass lets us escape from goth too so I'm not sure what you mean.

[ganj4lF]

Okay, I left this opened for a while, hoping in further discussion, but I guess the new suspect round and the Christmas festivities are killing the participation, so let's go to the vote and hope it sparks some new interest. We're voting for the third pokemon of Team 2.

This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:

• ganj4lF's Celebi
• ClubbingSealCub's Skarmory
• Dragontamer74pe's CM Latias
• Melee Mewtwo's Abomasnow
• G-Von's Sableye

When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

Originally Posted by Fat Enguarde

G-Von

I thought Forretress would appear sooner or later to provide spin support and lay hazards which Kyurem-B would definitely appreciate in order for it to be used to its full potential, as well as Rotom-W being a nice partner :]

Self voting is allowed. As usual, I'll keep this opened at least 24 hours, extending if necessary. Go!

[White symphoni]

ganj4lF's Celebi

[JacobNinja]

Melee Mewtwo

Obamasnow is neat

[DarkBlazeR]

ganj4lF

Voting Celebi since it provides Team 2 with a very solid FWG core, and thanks to Thunder Wave and U-turn it can keep up the team's offensive momentum.