Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[Anikrahman1995]

ginganinja's MixMence

[ClubbingSealCub]

ginganinja's mixmence

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Melee Mewtwo's SubPetaya Empoleon: This set still works! Hell, it's probably better now thanks to Drizzle ;d I prefer Timid Nature, though, so it's faster than Scarf Rotom-W and Scarf Kyurem-B at +2. 12 HP / 252 SpA / 244 Spe; Timid Nature is what I would go with.

Timid is cool but it misses out on some cool KOs and the opponent can easily use a ScarfTerrakion or Keldeo to revenge kill it instead (plus non rain Empoleon misses the OHKO on Choice Rotom anyways). It would be worthwhile if we decided to run Rain and Wobbufett to deal with non-Volt Switch ScarfMons but that is a lot to ask from a team off the bat like that.

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

SubPetaya Empoleon is an incredible set. It runs into a huge problem though - it either goes on a weatherless team and gets walled by bulky waters or it goes on a Rain team. We don't want to shoehorn ourselves into Rain this early on since Team 2 can easily just slap Ninetales onto the team.

Anything is going to get countered and if we force them into a Sun team or using bulky mons right off the bat then it's doing its job as the first choice. (Even Rotom, except SpDefensive, is 2HKO'd by Emp's boosted Surf)

Originally Posted by Fat ginganinja

Actually yes it is. The initial problem is that Team #2 simply picks Swift Swim Specs Kingdra, and then focus's on overloading whatever we attempt to use to counter said kingdra (Mag for Ferro, maybe Goth for Celebi etc etc). Part of the reasons Team #1 was successful last time, is that it was able to make use of rain, while still functioning outside of rain which made it difficult for Team #2. Did they risk selecting Kingdra even tho it would be a deadweight if we lacked rain etc etc. Its a thin line to walk, but Toxicroak really really needs rain to be effective, telegraphing our next choice, something Team #2 can easily counter (pick something that fucks with Toed + Croak then tack on Kingdra as your second choice and they now have momentum, dictating our team as well as a huge advantage over us.

I might think of something to submit later, but guys, do remember that whatever we pick, WILL be hard countered if possible. For example if we pick Sub DD Dragonite, Icicle Spear Mamoswine, Shed Shell Skarmory or Cloyster WILL get chosen to counter Dragonite. Personally, I would start off with something aggressive, that has few counters, forcing Team #2 into checking said sweeper, forcing them into a defensive role which is what we want. If Team #1 is aggressive enough in their teambuilding choices, then Team #2 could be forced to pick passively, which gives us the huge advantage for the last pick. Hence why I dislike a passive option.

Mix Hydreigon (not nommed but hard to switch into), Sub Terrakion (prefer Salac over Rock Gem tho), Agility Thundurus-T and Rp Landorus are some nominations that I feel are tricky to counter (Mamoswine fucks with a lot of them but cannot switch in) are perhapes the better choices out there. Will think on a possible submission.

The cool thing about Empoleon is that its typing lets it check some Kingdra sets and counters others and since it works well even outside of rain choosing Kingdra becomes a risky choice.

Empoleon hits so hard it is arguably harder to counter than RP Lando or Agility Thundy. The thing that really messes it up, though, is that low base speed that leaves it outrun by ScarfMons even after an Agility. It's resistance to most priority and Substitute kinda helps make up for that though. Plus these revenge killers can't really risk switching in to Emp anymore than they could into Lando or Thundy. Sadly, Petaya Berry is a one time use item so Emp is a bit less flexible early game. I still wouldn't exclude it from that group though as it makes up for the lack of power early game with double +1s late game.

Originally Posted by Fat ganj4lF

Wow, we got enough good submission to start voting! Going to post the slate soon - I'd like to have those slashes removed ASAP from sets by Melee Mewtwo / windwolf777.

Yeah, the slashes are for non-Rain vs Rain. Without Rain, the reliable Surf with the complementary Ice Beam is the way to run it whereas under rain Hydro Pump becomes so massively powerful that the accuracy drop isn't a problem and Ice Beam becomes unnecessary allowing for the use of Grass Knot to give it near perfect coverage. I assumed it would fall under the second rule listed.

Originally Posted by Fat ganj4lF

[*] No slashes in movesets. Some exceptions may be allowed in case of choices that depend on external factors (e.g. Thunder vs Thunderbolt), however please PLEASE try to keep them to a minimum.

[ganj4lF]

The point is, Thunder outclasses Thunderbolt completely in rain, and that's the only reason slashes are permitted in that case. In your case, Hydro Pump doesn't (technically) outclass Surf in Rain, nor does Grass Knot outclass Ice Beam in any circumstance (and the other way too). The point is you're changing coverage depending on future picks; let's say they pick Jellicent to stop Empoleon, then you can pick Rain just to have a reason to use Grass Knot and go through Jelli. That's not allowed, that's not how CtP is supposed to work. To be honest, I was thinking about banning slashes completely, that point in the rules is just to avoid dumb things like running Ice Beam in hail just cause you didn't know you'd later pick an Abomasnow. As a general rule of thumb, if it changes coverage, that slash must be removed.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Ah okay, thanks for explaining that. I went with the more general Surf/Ice Beam then.

Edit: Eh, I don't like having such a bare post to say so little. I'll edit my vote into this post if there ends up being a close race between two sets.

Edit2: Pocket's Kyurem-B

[White symphoni]

ginjaninja's MixMence

[kRunsOverU]

ginganinja's mixmence

[gengarsnemisis]

DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon

Tailwind could totally turn the tides of the battle in team 1s favor.

[RedRascal]

Edit: ginganinja's mixmence

It seems that the vote is going heavily in MixMence's favor but I've oddly not been a big fan of mence. Easily revenged in this case with no boosting moves and even something like the RP Landorus set I gave can outspeed and kill it at base 101 speed.

Reason I went with RP Landorus dispite other suggestions: almost anything slower than it is dead, end of story. It is also weak to Ice Shard like mence so they're comparable there but mence's Special Attack gets nerfed after a Draco and Outrage makes you easily revenged by almost anything faster.

Both are very good at breaking things but the main reason I like Lando over Mence is the RP. Both can come in and break something but if desired Lando can RP up if it's safe and proceed to sweep. Mence can come in and wallbreak certainly, likely netting a ko, but then it will be forced out and put us in an awkward position.

Also tooting my own horn a bit but what'cha gonna do? I suggested Lando for a reason.

Edited my vote if that's ok. I didn't realize I can't self vote. My bad. Leaving my thoughts since they're still valid

[Arcticblast]

ClubbingSealCub

I got the original format right :> it's SubSD Terrakion in case anyone forgot. I probably would have gone with Hydreigon, but I'd rather we have something tried and true instead of something more or less unknown.

[Eranu]

Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B

[NixHex]

Pocket

Not much to say here other than I've always wanted to see defensive cube in action.

[Turtle Soup]

Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B.

Really fun set with lots of potential and doesn't open up to many weaknesses/counters.

[MX42]

Dat Kyurem B Pocket made...

[dragonuser]

SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B

[Trinitrotoluene]

Pocket

[Remedy]

I don't know why all this love for Kyurem-B, get a Scizor and a steel like Cobalion who can Sub and resist Dragon Tail and break Kyurem's one. Whatever

Voting for Electrolyte's Landorus-T, at least it's solid and will always works, no matter what is picked next.

[Crackstar]

Tailwind Hydreigon

[Alexander.]

Tailwind Hydreigon

[Rechi]

DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon

[The Great Mighty Doom]

Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B

[RaijueR]

Pocket's SubRoost+Hone Claws Kyurem-Black

[Qwertyuiop]

Pocket's SubRoost+Hone Claws Kyurem-B

Pocket's Kyurem-B set looks like an interesting (and good) first choice for Team 1. I was also considering supporting Tailwind Hydreigon, but liked this better, so...

[windwolf777]

Originally Posted by Fat ganj4lF

Wow, we got enough good submission to start voting! Going to post the slate soon - I'd like to have those slases removed ASAP from sets by Melee Mewtwo / windwolf777.

Done if not too late

Originally Posted by Fat windwolf777

Zoro@Scarf
Naive
32 Atk/224 SpA/252 Spe
(Now the evs can be swapped however but the attack should stay just because of the fact that sucker punch is an ohko on standard latias.)
-Dark Pulse
-Flamethrower
-Sucker Punch
-U-Turn
Anyway, with no real "counters" until the illusion is up (sans priority), zoroark could allow some serious mind games. For example, one sends in a pokemon. Let's say the opponent sees a sizzor with them having one of the latis out. They wouldn't know what was what. This could allow some interesting mind games. If they swap and it's a Scizzor, they could get smacked by a hard pursuit. But if they stay in, a hard BP but a ko with hp fire. However, if it's Zorro, the threat of stab pursuit along with an ohko with sucker punch is eminent. This is just One scenario where Zorro can mess with the enemy.

Dark pulse chosen over the might burst for reliability and also in case anybody else can use it.
And I vote pocket if I can
EDIT 2: Item is scarf. Not LO sorry

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

I don't know why all this love for Kyurem-B, get a Scizor and a steel like Cobalion who can Sub and resist Dragon Tail and break Kyurem's one. Whatever

Voting for Electrolyte's Landorus-T, at least it's solid and will always works, no matter what is picked next.

You can say that about any Pokemon -_-
There are counters/revenge killers for everything, that's the point.