Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!] - Page 4

Electrolyte · Dec 8th, 2012, 8:51:13 PM

DarkBlazeR's tailwind hydreigon

I like the concept of Tailwind. I've been using that particular Hydreigon on PS! and have had decent success with it, and I want to see what the community thinks about creating a team / countering it.

ThunderBlunder · Dec 8th, 2012, 8:52:08 PM

DarkBlazeR's Tailwing Hydreigon

TerrickTerran · Dec 8th, 2012, 9:46:59 PM

Pocket

KRageToo · Dec 8th, 2012, 10:50:01 PM

DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon

I haven't seen Hydreigon for quite a long time and it's a great pokemon. I'd definitely like to see Tailwind in action.

HackerKing · Dec 8th, 2012, 10:55:43 PM

RedRascal's Landorus (the RP one).

Rhys DeAnno · Dec 9th, 2012, 12:13:39 AM

Ginganinja's Mixmence

Hard to go wrong with Mixmence as a first move.

ThePillsburyDoughBoy · Dec 9th, 2012, 1:24:36 AM

Ginganinja's Mixmence

I would note how restrictive Moxie MixMence will be on Team #1's building. Having a Rapid Spinner will be necessary. However, our inclusion of a spinner will force the team a. to carry a ghost type or b. carry moves that will take the spinner down. With that in mind our team should build accordinigly. In addition our team will need a strong pivot (think rotom-w, scizor, tornadus-t) in order to get Salamence in unharmed. That way it can spam its powerful attacks for even longer

Cherub Agent · Dec 9th, 2012, 3:18:13 AM

pocket's cube

ganj4lF · Dec 9th, 2012, 6:32:15 AM

Okay, voting is now closed! I'm kinda sad that only one or two people got the correct format to vote right, but that's not a big deal. Please, the next time, use only the name of the user to express your vote, as I said when the vote was opened. Multipe, different formats just make easier for me to count wrong in the tally and are generally an unwanted source of errors. Thanks.

This is the tally (not reporting entries with zero votes):

Melee Mewtwo's SubPetaya Empoleon: 1
DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon: 7
ClubbingSealCub's SubSD Terrakion: 1
gengarsnemisis's Fighting Gem Breloom: 1
RedRascal's RP Landorus-I: 1

Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B: 15
ginganinja's MixMence : 7
Electrolyte's Landorus-T: 1

So, we have the first pokemon of our Team 1!

Pocket's Kyurem-B @ Leftovers
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe
Careful Nature
- Substitute
- Hone Claws
- Dragon Tail
- Roost

Now the meaty discussion starts. We'll going to pick Team 2's first pokemon, that should fare well against that Cube set, but also avoid being too prone to possible counter-picks by Team 1. Please submit only one set, including all those things that are listed in the OP. Also, check the first post since the slashes rule has been slightly altered to be more restrictive and clear.

Discussion and set submissions will be opened for at least 48 hours from now.

Remedy · Dec 9th, 2012, 6:42:03 AM

Well well, I see some Scizor incoming so...

Cobalion @ Leftovers
56 HP / 28 Atk / 172 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Volt-Switch

EDIT : Changed the set.

Eranu · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:08:33 AM

I'm going to suggest this Scizor set:

Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Swords Dance

This set has the ability to Roost of +5 Dragon tail damage. Bullet Punch easily breaks a Substitute and if you get a Swords Dance up it can OHKO Kyurem. As is said, Kyurem-B can't do much in return seeing how +6 Dragon Tail does 67% max, allowing Scizor to never get OHKO'd and therefore always beat Kyurem-B with Bullet Punch (unless Kyurem-B is at 75% or higher behind a sub which is very unlikely). I put U-turn as the second attacking move since team one is extremely likely to go with Magnezone/Magneton. This way Scizor can just U-turn out if a Magnezone/ton switch is obvious or escape from every Magne set lacking Hidden Power [Fire].

ClubbingSealCub · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:19:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Eranu

I'm going to suggest this Scizor set:

Scizor (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Swords Dance

If you're going to use Scizor as a set-up mon, U-turn makes little to no sense. Bug Bite becomes a 90 BP STAB after technician. U-turning gives up your boosts and it's highly improbable Scizor will be able to sweep with Bullet Punch alone.

White symphoni · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:25:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

Well well, I see some Scizor incoming so...

Cobalion @ Salac Berry
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Sword Dance

Two Dragon Tail can't break the substitute and Cobalion is just faster. Basically it's a free set-up.

It's very nice way to stop the cube.However I don't think Salac Berry is a good item on it.Unlike Terrakion ,Cobalion has a shabby 90 attack stat on top of not getting STAB stone edge.So I think Cobalion cannot pull of a sweep well,especially when you have to lower you're hp and salac berry being a one time use item.So I think leftovers would be a better fit for more durability and allow Coba to make more Subs.

Also,about Scizor,i agree with CSC for going with Bug Bite.If Mag is a concern than Shed Shell will be a good item instead of lefties.I don't think losing lefties going to be a big issue since Scizor has reliable recovery in Roost.

Eranu · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:29:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

If you're going to use Scizor as a set-up mon, U-turn makes little to no sense. Bug Bite becomes a 90 BP STAB after technician. U-turning gives up your boosts and it's highly improbable Scizor will be able to sweep with Bullet Punch alone.

I would normally use Bug Bite but the idea of this project is also anticipating what your opponent's team will likely carry, which in this case is Magnezone/Magneton. With U-turn it also becomes easier to sweep with Bullet Punch. For instance, Jellicent switches in on this set. If you pair this set with Tyranitar and U-turn on the obvious Jellicent switch in, you can easily make a path for Bullet Punch to sweep.

Qwertyuiop · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:34:37 AM

Okay, to counter Kyurem-B, I'd like to propose SubCM Jirachi

Jirachi @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Thunderbolt / Thunder
- Flash Cannon

Jirachi can come in against Kyurem-B, set up a sub and boost pretty much all the time because it outspeeds the latter and does not have its sub broken unless Kyurem is at +2. After one or two CM boosts, Jirachi will always 2HKO Kyurem-B, while taking less than 50% damage from even +4 Dragon Tail. Jirachi in itself is an excellent Pokemon to have in general; it gives Team 2 a steel type (which is always good to have) and something which can set up on a lot of special attackers. After few CM boosts, Jirachi hits very hard and is difficult to take down as well. Flash Cannon is chosen as it is a STAB without immunities and Thunderbolt provides good coverage in general. Thunder is even better, having a 60% paralysis chance, but needs Rain to be successfully used. Magnezone does wall Rachi, but Specs Thunder doesn't even 2HKO at +2, so Rachi has some chance of beating it, though it will end up at very low health after the encounter.

Calcs

Remedy · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:42:39 AM

Cobalion, even with less Atk hits decently, and Salac help with killing pokemons faster, so it's far harder to counter something that can decide on either having a *2 Atk or a +1 speed.
By the way, I don't why the fact that Cobalion doesn't hit hard enough could justify the use of Leftovers. I don't get the logic.

Moreover, in comparison with Scizor and Jirachi, the coverage with two moves is perfect.

Jirachi is a horrible choice, especially with Tbolt Flash Canon because it's really easy to wall it, Scizor is also pretty easy to wall with Bug and Steel coverage. At least Cobalion set-up and can't be so easily stopped by an Heatran or a Thundurus. This Jirachi is screaming "Thundurus-T set-up please" and when we know how terrible an Aglity or Nasty Plot Thundurus can be :\

The only way to play Scizor here is a 3 Atk set or a CB, and pairs the CB with a team who has enough pokemon that can hurt a Kyurem-b (which isn't hard..).

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:44:22 AM

As a dragon type with only Dtail as it's attacking option, steel types are definitely the first to come to mind.

As far as stuff that can set up a sweep on it via subsititue, there is Bisharp, Empoleon, and Jirachi.

Empoleon can set up a Substitute on a +0 Dtail but a +1 will always break its substitutes. Plus Empoleon can't do much back so it's not the ideal option.

Calcs Empoleon

Bisharp is a similar boat being able to set up on a +0 Dtail but only having a 43.75% chance to keep its Sub up against a +1 Dtail. It does threaten Kyurem much more than Empoleon but is a somewhat inefficient set in general.

Calcs Bisharp

Jirachi has the infamous SubCM set and a less popular SubParalysis set. The SubCM set can set up on even a +1 Dtail (but not a +2) so it can switch in on a Hone Claws. Kyurem can only break the SubParalysis Jirachi set 12.5% of the time with a +1 Dtail but the set can easily have a slight EV spread edit to make that drop to never. Both have either Iron Head or Flash Cannon to put pressure on the Kyurem-B.

Calcs SubCM Jirachi

Calcs SubPara Jirachi

Outside of set up sweepers, there is also Forretress who can take advantage of Kyurem-B to set up Spikes. Physically Defensive can shrug Dtails while threatening with Gyro Ball and setting up Spikes so a faster Phazer can come in later can shuffle out the boosts. The new Custap Berry lets it fit into HO teams by becoming a hazards lead that can set up SR+Spikes, so it isn't necessarily forcing us to use a defensive team. Skarm is kinda in the same boat but it is too slow to phaze out (unless we changed the EVs) and implys more a defensive based team.

Anyways I think my final suggestion is going to be SubCM Jirachi. It is a solid set that is difficult to bring to a halt, especially with Serene Grace. As much as I love Forretress, he isn't something that should be chosen as the first mon and can always can be considered later on if such support looks worthwhile.

Edit: Nevermind my vote

SD Scizor isn't a really good idea since DTail will just force out the boosts.

Eranu · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:50:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

~Jirachi stuff~

SD Scizor isn't a really good idea since DTail will just force out the boosts.

I see what you mean but you Kyurem-B will never stay in without a Sub making it really easy for Scizor to set up on it if it doesn't, while if it has a sub, Scizor can just break it, get Dragon Tailed out and switch back in while Kyurem-B Subs again. Scizor can continue to do this unless Kyurem is at +6 which is almost impossible since this Scizor set prevents it from setting up.

White symphoni · Dec 9th, 2012, 8:55:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Remedy

Cobalion, even with less Atk hits decently, and Salac help with killing pokemons faster, so it's far harder to counter something that can decide on either having a *2 Atk or a +1 speed.By the way, I don't why the fact that Cobalion doesn't hit hard enough could justify the use of Leftovers. I don't get the logic.

ok,I think I failed to explain properly.The fact that Cobalion can't hit hard means it's going to be very easy to wall for pokemons with high defense,such as Skarmory,Gliscor etc.Also,the opposition is likely to pack priority or pokes with good typing against Cob's coverage or any other method.To sum it up,I'm saying Cobalion's low attack stat makes it easy to stop as a SubSalac Sweeper.Hence,I suggested Leftovers to give it more durability.It also leaves Cobalion's role as a SubSD sweeper intact.

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:00:13 AM

Kyurem really isn't that scared as never takes much more than 50% from an unboosted Buller Punch. In the mean time, Scizor is only switching in on a Roost or Hone Claws as Sub blocks that Bullet Punch and that lack of SR resist means that repeated Dtails will wear down quickly.

Calcs

Eranu · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Melee Mewtwo

Kyurem really isn't that scared as never takes much more than 50% from an unboosted Buller Punch. In the mean time, Scizor is only switching in on a Roost or Hone Claws as Sub blocks that Bullet Punch and that lack of SR resist means that repeated Dtails will wear down quickly.

Calcs

You forgot Scizor has 252 HP evs. Forcing Kyurem-B to Roost is how Scizor wins vs that set. It's not hard to predict a roost and setting up a Swords Dance on that turn forces Kyurem to switch out and can give you the upperhand since a +2 U-turn will hit everything not called Skarmory/Forretress hard.

ClubbingSealCub · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Eranu

I see what you mean but you Kyurem-B will never stay in without a Sub making it really easy for Scizor to set up on it if it doesn't, while if it has a sub, Scizor can just break it, get Dragon Tailed out and switch back in while Kyurem-B Subs again. Scizor can continue to do this unless Kyurem is at +6 which is almost impossible since this Scizor set prevents it from setting up.

If this happens, Scizor will keep eating dtail + hazards damage (you can be 100% sure team's 1 is going to be a spike/sr mon, I already have a submission ready and I'm pretty sure others do too c:). Dtail deals around 15% to Scizor, + 12% from SR and anywhere from 12 to 25 from spikes. That's min. 27% health lost for Scizor and 12 to 25% to whatever got tailed in. If Scizor roosts, then Kyu is free to just roost up while it has a sub or shuffle whatever got brought in again.

Everyone is proposing deffensive mons, so I'll suggest an offensive one!

Haxorus @ Choice Band
Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant
- Outrage
- Dual Chop
- Superpower
- Earthquake

Good ol' Bandorus! Dual Chop deals 49-58% damage per hit, so it's guaranteed to break the sub and hit Cube hard. If Cube came into SR and subbed up, then Dual Chop will take it out almost guaranteed. Superpower and EQ take care of steel-types looking to sponge Dual Chops or Outrages (with proper prediction, of course). Outrage is, well, Outrage. With team 1's steel types sufficiently weakened, banded Outrage will plow through the enemy team. This pick forces team 1 to either overload on steel types, or pack Ice Shard / a fast Ice Beam; facts that we can exploit with the second pick, be it 'Zone for steel types or Sub CM Keldeo or similar for ice-locked mons.

Yes, it has to be shiny. Yellow Haxorus are ugly, sleek black Haxorus are sexy.

Alexander. · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:26:24 AM

I'd suggest this Heatran set:

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Substitute

The combination of Will-O-Wisp and Substitute is fantastic (Wil-O-Wisp hits, for example Politoed and Tentacruel who believe that they can without any damage, and W-O-W punishes them very well and Substitute is a very good move for Heatran because it have a lots of changes to put the Substitute thanks to its resistances). Fire Blast is a obvious STAB and Earth Power is here to hit the others Heatran and stuff that resists to Fire Blast. I suggest you to use this set, people.

White symphoni · Dec 9th, 2012, 9:33:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat ClubbingSealCub

Everyone is proposing deffensive mons, so I'll suggest an offensive one!

Haxorus @ Choice Band
Mold Breaker
Shiny: Yes
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant
- Outrage
- Dual Chop
- Superpower
- Earthquake

Haxorus is a bad choice imo.Not only it can't switch in on Kyurem-B but also it's easy to revenge kill because of It's 97 base speed,fraility and forced to lock into outrage to be at full potential.Although it has the cool ability to get past Subs,it can't kill it through Sub if it's not weakend enough while the cube can possibly kill in return.All Cube needs is to roost off later.CB Haxorus is also walled by Skarmory if it's at full health.Forretress can also switch in and set hazards or spin away to support Kyurem-B.For the Cube's offenisve checks,CB Terrak with Double kick or even CB Chomp with Dual chop is overall better than Haxorus.(Just an example,not suggesting it or anything).

Melee Mewtwo · Dec 9th, 2012, 10:06:26 AM

Kyurem isn't going to waste it's time Roosting, it'll just D-tail you out.

Corrected Calcls

Edit: Ninja'd, well at least I got exact calcs so I'll leave it.

Dec 8th, 2012, 8:51:13 PM	#76
Electrolyte Cause you keep me coming back for more Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 1,050 And I feel a little better than I did before Mentor	DarkBlazeR's tailwind hydreigon I like the concept of Tailwind. I've been using that particular Hydreigon on PS! and have had decent success with it, and I want to see what the community thinks about creating a team / countering it. __________________ Stuff (Click!): l l l l l l l l l l VM me for an OU / LC team rate! MURKBRO MAFIA

Dec 8th, 2012, 8:52:08 PM	#77
ThunderBlunder Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 360	DarkBlazeR's Tailwing Hydreigon __________________ [12:20:58 PM] Cased Victory: Blimlax's computer is literally made from Popeyes Last edited by NixHex; Dec 8th, 2012 at 10:31:20 PM. Reason: Instructions :-p

Dec 8th, 2012, 9:46:59 PM	#78
TerrickTerran Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 371	Pocket __________________ FC 0087 1987 4650

Dec 8th, 2012, 10:55:43 PM	#80
HackerKing Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 54	RedRascal's Landorus (the RP one). __________________ -HackerKing http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3478770]Volt-Turn to Victory - OU RMT

Dec 9th, 2012, 1:24:36 AM	#82
ThePillsburyDoughBoy Ttar by Doughboy Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 956 Mentor	Ginganinja's Mixmence I would note how restrictive Moxie MixMence will be on Team #1's building. Having a Rapid Spinner will be necessary. However, our inclusion of a spinner will force the team a. to carry a ghost type or b. carry moves that will take the spinner down. With that in mind our team should build accordinigly. In addition our team will need a strong pivot (think rotom-w, scizor, tornadus-t) in order to get Salamence in unharmed. That way it can spam its powerful attacks for even longer __________________ Check Out the 1 vs 1 Metagame: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3483807

Dec 8th, 2012, 10:50:01 PM	#79
KRageToo Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 12	DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon I haven't seen Hydreigon for quite a long time and it's a great pokemon. I'd definitely like to see Tailwind in action.

Dec 9th, 2012, 12:13:39 AM	#81
Rhys DeAnno Slacking Off Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 144 The Ladder	Ginganinja's Mixmence Hard to go wrong with Mixmence as a first move.

Dec 9th, 2012, 3:18:13 AM	#83
Cherub Agent I may be dead, but I'm still pretty. Which is more than I can say for you Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 2,239 intimidatingly cute Mentor	pocket's cube __________________ (16:08) <@skylight> BUT I DID NOTHING WRONG (16:08) <@skylight> CHERUB (16:08) <@skylight> i will FUCK YOU (17:20) <@skylight> ill luvdisc your ass

Dec 9th, 2012, 6:32:15 AM	#84
ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science! Join Date: Jun 2011 Posts: 688 Italy	Okay, voting is now closed! I'm kinda sad that only one or two people got the correct format to vote right, but that's not a big deal. Please, the next time, use only the name of the user to express your vote, as I said when the vote was opened. Multipe, different formats just make easier for me to count wrong in the tally and are generally an unwanted source of errors. Thanks. This is the tally (not reporting entries with zero votes): Melee Mewtwo's SubPetaya Empoleon: 1 DarkBlazeR's Tailwind Hydreigon: 7 ClubbingSealCub's SubSD Terrakion: 1 gengarsnemisis's Fighting Gem Breloom: 1 RedRascal's RP Landorus-I: 1 Pocket's SubRoost Hone Claws Kyurem-B: 15 ginganinja's MixMence : 7 Electrolyte's Landorus-T: 1 So, we have the first pokemon of our Team 1! Pocket's Kyurem-B @ Leftovers Trait: Teravolt EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe Careful Nature - Substitute - Hone Claws - Dragon Tail - Roost Now the meaty discussion starts. We'll going to pick Team 2's first pokemon, that should fare well against that Cube set, but also avoid being too prone to possible counter-picks by Team 1. Please submit only one set, including all those things that are listed in the OP. Also, check the first post since the slashes rule has been slightly altered to be more restrictive and clear. Discussion and set submissions will be opened for at least 48 hours from now. __________________ Counter that Pokemon project: Mk III (over) & Warstory \| Mk IV (running) RMTs: The HOutsiders (also the other ones if anyone likes lurking my old posts) Take a look at this before starting an argument Not accepting rating requests anymore. Sorry!

Dec 9th, 2012, 6:42:03 AM	#85
Remedy Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 468 I tell you I'm a Tensai	Well well, I see some Scizor incoming so... Cobalion @ Leftovers 56 HP / 28 Atk / 172 SpA / 252 Spe Naive Nature - Substitute - Close Combat - Hidden Power [Ice] - Volt-Switch EDIT : Changed the set. __________________ We must not let daylight in upon the magic. *VM me for a rate in BW2 OU, my advices are free for now* Check my last RMT -Friend's Prophecy- ! And give me your opinion ! http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482863* Last edited by Remedy; Dec 10th, 2012 at 3:34:20 AM.

Dec 9th, 2012, 8:08:33 AM	#86
Eranu Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 369	I'm going to suggest this Scizor set: Scizor (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Technician EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk) - Roost - Bullet Punch - U-turn - Swords Dance This set has the ability to Roost of +5 Dragon tail damage. Bullet Punch easily breaks a Substitute and if you get a Swords Dance up it can OHKO Kyurem. As is said, Kyurem-B can't do much in return seeing how +6 Dragon Tail does 67% max, allowing Scizor to never get OHKO'd and therefore always beat Kyurem-B with Bullet Punch (unless Kyurem-B is at 75% or higher behind a sub which is very unlikely). I put U-turn as the second attacking move since team one is extremely likely to go with Magnezone/Magneton. This way Scizor can just U-turn out if a Magnezone/ton switch is obvious or escape from every Magne set lacking Hidden Power [Fire].

Dec 9th, 2012, 8:34:37 AM	#90
Qwertyuiop Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 108	Okay, to counter Kyurem-B, I'd like to propose SubCM Jirachi Jirachi @ Leftovers Trait: Serene Grace EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Substitute - Calm Mind - Thunderbolt / Thunder - Flash Cannon Jirachi can come in against Kyurem-B, set up a sub and boost pretty much all the time because it outspeeds the latter and does not have its sub broken unless Kyurem is at +2. After one or two CM boosts, Jirachi will always 2HKO Kyurem-B, while taking less than 50% damage from even +4 Dragon Tail. Jirachi in itself is an excellent Pokemon to have in general; it gives Team 2 a steel type (which is always good to have) and something which can set up on a lot of special attackers. After few CM boosts, Jirachi hits very hard and is difficult to take down as well. Flash Cannon is chosen as it is a STAB without immunities and Thunderbolt provides good coverage in general. Thunder is even better, having a 60% paralysis chance, but needs Rain to be successfully used. Magnezone does wall Rachi, but Specs Thunder doesn't even 2HKO at +2, so Rachi has some chance of beating it, though it will end up at very low health after the encounter. Calcs 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (12.62 - 15.09%) -- 9HKO at best +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO +2 0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Kyurem-B: 296-350 (65.19 - 77.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 SpA Jirachi Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Kyurem-B: 150-176 (33.03 - 38.76%) -- 99.66% chance to 3HKO Last edited by Qwertyuiop; Dec 9th, 2012 at 8:49:59 AM.

Dec 9th, 2012, 8:42:39 AM	#91
Remedy Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 468 I tell you I'm a Tensai	Cobalion, even with less Atk hits decently, and Salac help with killing pokemons faster, so it's far harder to counter something that can decide on either having a 2 Atk or a +1 speed. By the way, I don't why the fact that Cobalion doesn't hit hard enough could justify the use of Leftovers. I don't get the logic. Moreover, in comparison with Scizor and Jirachi, the coverage with two moves is perfect. Jirachi is a horrible choice, especially with Tbolt Flash Canon because it's really easy to wall it, Scizor is also pretty easy to wall with Bug and Steel coverage. At least Cobalion set-up and can't be so easily stopped by an Heatran or a Thundurus. This Jirachi is screaming "Thundurus-T set-up please" and when we know how terrible an Aglity or Nasty Plot Thundurus can be :\ The only way to play Scizor here is a 3 Atk set or a CB, and pairs the CB with a team who has enough pokemon that can hurt a Kyurem-b (which isn't hard..). __________________ We must not let daylight in upon the magic. VM me for a rate in BW2 OU, my advices are free for now* Check my last RMT -Friend's Prophecy- ! And give me your opinion ! http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3482863*

Dec 9th, 2012, 8:44:22 AM	#92
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	As a dragon type with only Dtail as it's attacking option, steel types are definitely the first to come to mind. As far as stuff that can set up a sweep on it via subsititue, there is Bisharp, Empoleon, and Jirachi. Empoleon can set up a Substitute on a +0 Dtail but a +1 will always break its substitutes. Plus Empoleon can't do much back so it's not the ideal option. Calcs Empoleon 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 57-67 (18.26 - 21.47%) -- possible 5HKO +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 12 HP / 4 Def Empoleon: 85-101 (27.24 - 32.37%) -- guaranteed 4HKO Bisharp is a similar boat being able to set up on a +0 Dtail but only having a 43.75% chance to keep its Sub up against a +1 Dtail. It does threaten Kyurem much more than Empoleon but is a somewhat inefficient set in general. Calcs Bisharp 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 51-60 (15.26 - 17.96%) -- possible 6HKO +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bisharp: 76-90 (22.75 - 26.94%) -- possible 4HKO Jirachi has the infamous SubCM set and a less popular SubParalysis set. The SubCM set can set up on even a +1 Dtail (but not a +2) so it can switch in on a Hone Claws. Kyurem can only break the SubParalysis Jirachi set 12.5% of the time with a +1 Dtail but the set can easily have a slight EV spread edit to make that drop to never. Both have either Iron Head or Flash Cannon to put pressure on the Kyurem-B. Calcs SubCM Jirachi 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (12.62 - 15.09%) -- 9HKO at best +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (19.05 - 22.52%) -- possible 6HKO Calcs SubPara Jirachi 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 51-61 (14.12 - 16.89%) -- 9HKO at best +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 77-91 (21.32 - 25.2%) -- possible 5HKO 252 Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 204-242 (44.93 - 53.3%) -- 32.42% chance to 2HKO Outside of set up sweepers, there is also Forretress who can take advantage of Kyurem-B to set up Spikes. Physically Defensive can shrug Dtails while threatening with Gyro Ball and setting up Spikes so a faster Phazer can come in later can shuffle out the boosts. The new Custap Berry lets it fit into HO teams by becoming a hazards lead that can set up SR+Spikes, so it isn't necessarily forcing us to use a defensive team. Skarm is kinda in the same boat but it is too slow to phaze out (unless we changed the EVs) and implys more a defensive based team. Anyways I think my final suggestion is going to be SubCM Jirachi. It is a solid set that is difficult to bring to a halt, especially with Serene Grace. As much as I love Forretress, he isn't something that should be chosen as the first mon and can always can be considered later on if such support looks worthwhile. Edit: Nevermind my vote SD Scizor isn't a really good idea since DTail will just force out the boosts. Last edited by Melee Mewtwo; Dec 10th, 2012 at 4:08:51 PM.

Dec 9th, 2012, 9:00:13 AM	#95
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Kyurem really isn't that scared as never takes much more than 50% from an unboosted Buller Punch. In the mean time, Scizor is only switching in on a Roost or Hone Claws as Sub blocks that Bullet Punch and that lack of SR resist means that repeated Dtails will wear down quickly. Calcs 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 204-240 (44.93 - 52.86%) -- 22.66% chance to 2HKO 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 51-61 (18.14 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 77-91 (27.4 - 32.38%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Dec 9th, 2012, 9:26:24 AM	#98
Alexander. Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 1,129	I'd suggest this Heatran set: Heatran (F) @ Leftovers Trait: Flash Fire EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk) - Will-O-Wisp - Fire Blast - Earth Power - Substitute The combination of Will-O-Wisp and Substitute is fantastic (Wil-O-Wisp hits, for example Politoed and Tentacruel who believe that they can without any damage, and W-O-W punishes them very well and Substitute is a very good move for Heatran because it have a lots of changes to put the Substitute thanks to its resistances). Fire Blast is a obvious STAB and Earth Power is here to hit the others Heatran and stuff that resists to Fire Blast. I suggest you to use this set, people.

Dec 9th, 2012, 10:06:26 AM	#100
Melee Mewtwo Dat Lugiass Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 672 France	Kyurem isn't going to waste it's time Roosting, it'll just D-tail you out. Corrected Calcls 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 51-61 (14.82 - 17.73%) -- 9HKO at best +1 0 Atk Kyurem-B Dragon Tail vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 77-91 (22.38 - 26.45%) -- possible 5HKO Edit: Ninja'd, well at least I got exact calcs so I'll leave it.