Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

[Electrolyte]

TyranitarAbuser, at this stage countering Kyu-B is not the most important factor we should consider when choosing a pokemon. We want one that can again express offensive pressure as well as handle a variety of OU threats WITH gret synergy to Heatran. And it's not as if Latios is weak to Kyu-B at all- as catching it behind a sub is not the only way to deal with it. Either way, we already have Heatran, so another full out counter to Kyu-B is not needed, and since Latios is one of the better checks to Kyu-B then it suffices.

[Bryce]

After my internet being busted last 2 days,I missed out quite a bit.Anyway,I support electrolyte's suggestion of Specs Latios.It is an excellent pick at this point imo.Especially when it has such a good defensive synergy with heatran and a nice check to the cube as well as putting a lot of offenisve pressure.The point of "not being able to beat cube when behind a sub" shouldn't be held against it at all,as we have heatran specifically for that job.

keldeo isn't a good pick tbh,since it shares common couners with tran in jellicent and Lati@s .The gyarados sets are cool,but I dont think they are better than Latios.Landorus-T is another nice suggestion too,but multiple water weakness's this early isn't appealing at all.Landorus-T is a shaky check to Terrakion as well,since Team 1 can just pick SD Rock gem terrakion as their set if they do choose terrakion as a teammate later.

[TyranitarAbuser]

You're right Electrolyte, but that doesn't stop me from feeling a little uncomfortable (or maybe I'm just paranoid). Anyways, your Latios set seems like the best for now, and I can't think of anything else.

P.S. I'm still a little worried

Edit: Focus Sash Mamo 2HKO Latios with Ice Shard, OHKO Heatran. :(

[RedRascal]

Originally Posted by Fat The Great Mighty Doom

Gothitelle wouldn't be dedicated to countering just Jellicent, it would be dedicated to countering the pokemon that cause problems for the team.

This makes it a fair choice for later on but in no way should it be considered this early. Picking something like a trapper this early makes it too easily counterable and then we almost have a wasted team slot. Perhaps we could go with something like Gothitelle/Scarfer as our last two picks. This would force team 1 to choose between the faster revenge killer or stopping our trapper.

Originally Posted by Fat TyranitarAbuser

You're right Electrolyte, but that doesn't stop me from feeling a little uncomfortable (or maybe I'm just paranoid). Anyways, your Latios set seems like the best for now, and I can't think of anything else.

P.S. I'm still a little worried

Edit: Focus Sash Mamo 2HKO Latios with Ice Shard, OHKO Heatran. :(

I think you're just a bit paranoid personally. I can't see how Latios getting dragged in is unlikely. We obviously wouldn't switch it into Kyurem-B (unless we just make a flawless prediction on the low hp Roost) but cube can only do 1 of two things when it comes in: either subs down and risks Heatran getting a free sub as it switches in or D-tailing expecting Heatran and thus dragging something else in (like Latios). So to me it seems virtually the only way Latios would come in against Kyurem-B would be dragged in after D-tail. Seems pretty safe to me.

Sash Mamoswine will be annoying but hazards break the sash and there are things we can use to counter it if chosen by Team 1 (seems a reasonable pick actually). Rotom-W for example is a helluva counter to it and anything faster that isn't weak to Ice Shard works as a sufficient check (Gyrados and Gengar are two fair examples. Gyrados can actually switch into anything bar a stone edge but generally Superpower is the preferred move and thus Mamoswine would get walled hard, especially after intimidate).

As for my vote I'm heavily leaning toward Specs Latios because of the reasons I mentioned in an earlier post. After that I'd say my proposed fixes to Gyrados and the defensive Landorus-T are a tossup. They function about the same and getting rocks up against lots of threats is always nice.

[Melee Mewtwo]

Originally Posted by Fat The Great Mighty Doom

First of all, I don't see why we'd be wishing we chose Choice Scarf Terrakion if they choose a Hidden Power [Ground] Volcarona because Keldeo still revenge kills it. Volcarona needs Giga Drain (which would involve getting rid of one of it's STABs when used in conjunction with Hidden Power [Ground]) or sun support to beat Keldeo. And even then there are multiple great offensive pokemon that will put a strain on sun in general as well as check Volcarona (Dragonite, Salamence, Garchomp etc.)

I can understand your argument of not wanting to choose our Choice Scarfer so early, but what OU sweeper can't be revenge killed by Keldeo? There are only a few pokemon like Venusaur that pretty much need both Ninetales and Dugtrio to even have a chance of succeeding against this team and then there are the speed boosters, eg. Agility Thundurus-T, Rock Polish Landorus-I etc that are easily taken care of with the likes of Celebi, Lati@s (admittedly can be trapped by Tyranitar), Zapdos etc. By choosing Choice Scarf Keldeo now, the opposing team suffers a huge handicap when choosing their win condition. Also, no matter what we do, we can't choose our revenge killer after they choose their sweeper if they put it in the last slot, as they get the last pick.

Yeah I was thinking of Volca under sun, it was just the first example that popped into my head. I know that Keldeo is top-tier revenge killer but that doesn't mean that team 1 can't pick things that are easier to be revenge killed by something else. On top of that, knowing exactly which Scarfer they have to go up against makes it a lot easier for them to choose their set up sweepers. It would be better to wait a bit longer before we decide which revenge killer to use, team 1 choosing the last mon is irrelevant since 5 out of 6 is already enough to figure out who does this role best.

Originally Posted by Fat The Great Mighty Doom

I really don't like the look of that Keldeo, not only are we not able to choose a Choice Scarf Keldeo (it really is the best revenge killer atm) down the path, but it's easily walled by multiple offensively orientated pokemon. With Choice Scarf Keldeo we force the opposing team to choose a passive pokemon, that can likely be trapped, if they want to reliably take Keldeo down, but with this set they can just take advantage of our lack of coverage as well as our lack of speed and choose an offensive pokemon that we'll be forced to counter later on. They can easily choose a Salamence, Dragonite, etc to beat Keldeo, they are difficult to counter and they can't really be trapped by anything. You could argue that they're weak to Stealth Rock and they won't have recovery, but there are multiple Dragonite variants that can run Roost (SubDD, Tank, Shuffler etc.) They could also run something like a Scarf Breloom (more viable than it sounds) to take out a +6 Keldeo behind a Sub with no problem. Overall, Choice Scarf Keldeo forces more passive counters, who are trappable, and will put a much bigger strain on the opponent's team.

Hmm good point, I hadn't realized how weak SubCM Keldeo is ouside of Rain (still strong but Dnite isn't a good counter to have with Heatran as our team-mate). Removing it as a possible Scarf mon later is also a let down so I'll drop that suggestion.

Anyways, so like everybody else I'm digging that Specs Latios and its synergy with Heatran. However, there is one particular set that I could see Team 1 picking that would end up being really annoying. T-Wave Rotom can switch in easily on the Heatran set and cripple a Latios switch-in with T-Wave. (who would otherwise wall it) This means that if we wanted to counter this problematic Rotom we would need to find something else that has Water and Electric resists that fits on the team (which isn't always easy) who wouldn't mind being hit with Paralysis. If that isn't a desirable option then we would just have to use Latios as our dedicated Rotom counter and build the rest of the team around having it paralyzed. Although both answers are possible neither make team building easier for us (Plus Latios is easy Pursuit fodder so we may end up having to go with option one anyways). I can only think of two mons that can switch into Rotom-W's STABs and not worry about T-Wave (or WoW) and those are Poison Heal Breloom and Celebii. Personally, I prefer Celebii due to the faster speed and ability to easily switch into HP Ice as well (we need a SpDefensive spread on Breloom to do that). I was thinking NP Celebii is the way to go as it gives it a strong offensive presence.


Celebi @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Nasty Plot
- Hidden Power [Fire]

What does this set do? Celebii makes use of it's 100 stat spread and multiple resistances to force switches setting up a Nasty Plot so that it can sweep. Giga Drain is main attack as a strong STAB option that lets you abuse LO to hit harder while gaining health instead of losing it. It also hits Tyranitar for SE damage and has a 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock without having even boosted once. Hidden Power Fire is to OHKO Scizor even without a NP boost (like if Celebii switches into a Rotom Volt-Switch) as well as hits the many steel types that resist Giga Drain. Psychic is Celebii's other STAB and its best option against dragon types like DNite who would otherwise wall any NP Celebii that opted for HP Fire.

How can this set help the team? Celebii can easily switch in to the aforementioned Rotom-W with ease as well as the many other water, ground, and fighting types that will try to force Heatran out. (looking at you Lando-I and Keldeo) With Heatran as its partner, Team 2 has the makings of a solid FWG core from the start and one that has the bulk to abuse its typing to switch in easily while firing off powerful attacks or threatening a sweep to punish the switches it forces.

What can the other team do in response to this set? Sadly, Celebii has some coverage issues. Heatran can easily switch in to any of its attacks while threatening to OHKO it with is powerful fire STAB. Faster threats with strong SE attacks such as X-Scissor Terrakion or Weavile can threaten to revenge kill Celebii (the later can Pursuit as well). However, the biggest problems for this set are Lati@s and Hydreigon. Not only can they shrug off Celebii's attacks with ease but they can also switch into Heatran and threaten to OHKO him as well.

What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? Opposing Heatran can already be somewhat dealt with by our own Heatran if the OP decides to not give it max speed or Earth Power. Otherwise, a bulky water type is a strong choice to complete the FWG while shrugging off Heatran's attacks and threatening back with STAB Surf/Hydro Pump. Keldeo and Rotom-W are two that come to mind due to their bulk and strong offensive presence. Gliscor and Land-T can switch into to Terrakion's attacks while threatening it back with STAB EQ. Weavile is hard to deal with due to Pursuit but is weak to SR and has to predict the switch out for Pursuit to OHKO. Lati@s and Hydreigon are all dealt with by Tyranitar. With Pursuit and boosted SpDef it can directly remove Lati@s with relative ease while it indirectly threatens Hydreigon by summoning additional passive damage to wear it away. After only two turns (one to switch in other to attack) with SR up and LO equipped Hydreigon takes a total of 35% damage. This prevents it from countering Heatran (even with Roost) as it has too attack to break the Substitute it will most likely be hiding behind and then be phazed out immediately after thanks to Roar. Opting for E-Belt or Choice Specs/Scarf will reduce the passive damage but will also weaken Hydreigon allowing for Team 2 to counter it easier.

Edit: ClubbingSealCub is right about the Calcs. This does mean that Celebii has a harder time dealing with Tyranitar that comes in after a Volt Switch than it does with Scizor. However, all is not lost as even CBTar has to predict the switch-out to OHKO with Pursuit otherwise it will only deal 55.05 - 65.65% and be too weak to survive another unboosted Giga Drain.

[ClubbingSealCub]

Little nitpick about Celebi - you say it has a 25% chance to OHKO Tyranitar after SR damage without boosting.

This is wrong - Celebi hits 156 HP/ 0 Spdef Tyranitar for 52-61% at +0. You most likely forgot to set the weather to Sandstorm.

[Qwertyuiop]

I like the idea of Keldeo in general, but I am going to suggest a different set, ie, the Choice Specs set. The only Pokemon in OU not 2HKOd by the correct move from specs Keldeo are CM Latias (which can't kill Keldeo with Psyshock anyway), and grass types like Amoonguss and Celebi which are easily handled by Heatran. Jellicent is unable to wall this set as unless it runs a ton of SpDef EVs, it is 2HKOd by Hidden Power after Stealth Rock. 'Mence or Dragonite can't set up on this Keldeo either as Icy Wind OHKOs Mence and 2HKOs DNite (Hydro Pump also 2HKOs Mence). While using this set does mean that we can't use Scarf Keldeo, it does put Team 1 under a lot of offensive pressure in my opinion.



Keldeo (Keldeo-R) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
IVs: 30 SAtk
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Icy Wind
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]

[ganj4lF]

Ok, voting time! We're voting to choose the second pokemon of Team 2.

This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:

• Arcticblast's Substitute Gyarados
• The Great Mighty Doom's Scarf Keldeo
• The Reptile's Techniloom
• futuresuperstar's Gyarados
• Electrolyte's Specs Latios
• Remedy's Claydol
• dragonuser's Landorus-T
• Melee Mewtwo's NP Celebi
• Qwertyuiop's Specs Keldeo

When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

Originally Posted by Fat DarkBlazeR

Turtle Soup

As much as I like the Sub Heatran set, I think it is a little too specialised for dealing with Kyurem-B. I just feel as if it won't provide enough support for Team 2 as a whole, and is basically encouraging a passive team building route from the beginning, which in my opinion we shouldn't aim for. Whilst Deoxys-D doesn't counter Kyurem-B directly, it makes life as difficult as possible for it, putting Team 1 in a situation that necessitates a good Rapid Spin user. Team 2 can quite easily take advantage of this by forcing Team 1 on the defensive.

Self voting is allowed. You have about 24 hours to vote. Go!

[ginganinja]

I wanted to post and nominate something but I unexpectedly had no internet for about 15hrs~ :( (Was going to nominate Yache Chomp or Sash Terrakion or Deoxys-D. Something that didn't entirely get ass raped by Mamoswine T_T

Anyway, I don't really like much of the ballot, since atm team 1 is going to pick Mamoswine or Jellicent which beats whatever wins the ballot but whatever.

Specs Latios

I guess tho I am 100% sure that Team 1 will just add Tyranitar or something, then add a sweeper, then bone us with last pick now :(

[RaijueR]

Qwertyuiop's Choice Specs Keldeo
Honestly that thing is the most difficult pokemon to switch in rain tied with Tornadus-T(or Tornadus-I as its technically more powerful) and its real only true checks are Amoonguss and Celebi.

[ClubbingSealCub]

specs latios

[DarkBlazeR]

dragonuser

Landorus-T may be fairly easy to counter directly, though in the long run it functions as an excellent offensive and defensive pivot for Team 2. With access to Stealth Rock and U-turn, it's very difficult to stop it from succeeding in its role. We need a decent Stealth Rock user on Team 2 so to keep Team 1's Kyurem-B under pressure.

[KRageToo]

Electrolyte

[Electrolyte]

Electrolyte's Specs Latios

[The Great Mighty Doom]

The Great Mighty Doom

[ThunderBlunder]

The Great Mighy Doom

[NixHex]

Electrolyte

[gengarsnemisis]

Electrolyte

[The Reptile]

The Great Mighty Doom

[MOET]

Scarf Keldeo

[Turtle Soup]

The Great Mighty Doom

[TyranitarAbuser]

Electrolyte's Specs Latios

Seems like the best, but Mamoswine still gives us problems (especially the sash set) while being able to set up rocks.

[Jirachi]

The Great Mighty Doom

[mikel]

The Great Mighty Doom

[Enguarde]

Electrolyte