Uber Pokemon of the Week #5: Zekrom - Page 2

Organization Member XIV · Jan 12th, 2013, 9:42:05 AM

Lugia is truly the Great Wall. It really doesn't need offense when it has 5 other teammates for that. Reliable recovery, phazing, ability to break shit down with Toxic is just urgh. Steels are annoying though as they are immune to Toxic. Multiscale is obnoxious as F**k, although this can be solved by statusing Lugia as Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are very rare in Ubers. But yeah, the set above specifically looks annoying to anything not named Steelceus.

**trickroom** · Jan 12th, 2013, 10:04:10 AM

Lugia isn't really the best wall this generation because it simply sits there and phaze. Unlike Giratina it does not block spin, which is crucial for almost any team. No team will want their hazards removed, and Lugia just invites them all, any Rapid Spinner can come in for free on Lugia unless you use surprise moves such as Weather Ball in the sun to KO Forretress or Hydro Pump in rain to smash Excadrill.

That said, Lugia has huge bulk and can sort of check Extremekiller, if Stealth Rock is up, Lugia will likely lose unless it gets a chance to use Roost. I think fast Lugia has a better chance this time thanks to Multiscale, and it beats Swords Dance Rayquaza better. If you are max Speed, you can wall any slower Latias or Latios thanks to Roost and non Scarf Terrakion will lose to you, especially when you are carrying Reflect. Bold Lugia loses to Sword Dance Rayquaza with V-Create if Stealth Rock is up, which is a pretty common situation.

Having mixed bulk is nice, but Lugia's role can be substituted by others who do more than walling, usually in the form of Arceus. For example, Fighting Arceus can hit things hard directly, epecially those dangerous to stall such as Excadrill and Dialga. Lugia simply lacks the offenses and utility of some other pokemon, and sheer bulk and phazing are the only things going for it.

No other wall can match Lugia's bulk, especially with Multiscale, and it is one of the few walls who can outstall Ho-Oh, as long as you use Reflect and Pressure. Immunity to Spikes is a bonus but you are forced to use Substitute to avoid status and Leech Seed.

I think Calm Mind Lugia is a pretty good set simply because it gives Lugia some sort of offense while phazing at the same time. Most Calm Mind users simply cannot overpower Lugia as you phaze them out, such as Mewtwo, Latias or some Kyogre without Thunder. Regardless of what Lugia uses, something will wall it hard so Whirlwind is a good move even on Calm Mind sets. Multiscale lets it grab the first boost even easier, but you must realize Lugia has lousy offenses and just Aeroblast as its powerful STAB. Psyshock is weak and things that stop Lugia usually laughs at it, such as Zekrom, Tyranitar, Excadrill and Forretress.

Kyurem-W wasn't fun for Lugia either, unless you are running Light Screen, once you are at 100%, you can no longer Roost on Ice Beam and Specs ones will OHKO you. Scarf 2hKOes Lugia regardless although Genesect is safely walled outside of boosted Thunders. Kyurem-B isn't a big threat because Lugia outruns it and can throw up a Reflect before it gets to attack. Latias isn't really threatening to Lugia but it can annoy it with Thunders.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 25th, 2013, 5:14:07 PM

So I've been trying to build a classic Stall team (because I loves Stall) around a Chansey + Lugia core because they have such enormous bulk that they wall a majority of the metagame without the need for resistances. At least, this is what I thought until I found out only Chansey fits this description. As cool as he is, Lugia is a horrible wall IMO. When I was calcing to find a good spread for Lugia to beat EKiller (thinking fast MS with Reflect would do it as TR mentioned) I came to realize that as long as SR is up, Lugia loses. In the case of EKiller, if you are slower than him he hits too hard with Shadow Claw for Lugia to reliably wall him whereas if you are faster you have given up too much bulk to tank his ESpeeds.

Ekiller Calcs

This realisation got me thinking, what does Lugia reliably wall? Rayquaza wins with SD/DD if Lugia is Great Wall/SpeedScale. Groudon loses unless he hits Lugia with Para or CB Stone Edge. Lugia can beat Zek with Roost + Reflect + Pressure if he manages to not waltz in on a Bolt Strike. Ho-Oh loses even if Sun is up so that's cool. Blaze, on the other hand, outspeeds and may have SD as Lugia came in so we'll need rain to beat that. Kabutops wrecks Lugia easily with Stone Edge. After that there are lesser offensive threats that I won't even bother considering. (they are good mons but normally aren't 6-0ing teams) All in all, Lugia is looking like a pretty mediocre wall which is pretty darn bad when you are such horrible Spikes fodder and open to status. I was getting pretty depressed at this point to see such a cool Pokemon (I like the shiny) turn out to be a pretty crummy Stall mon when he is supposed to be the poster boy for bulk. I was hoping to find something that could take his place and I realized that if I give the exact same EV spread to Arceus he has MORE physical bulk than Lugia. Seeing Arceus as has far superior typing, support movepool, speed and offensive stats/movepool I've concluded that the only legitimate reason to use Lugia as your physical wall is so that you don't have to use Arceus. (who's a major eyesore and has a lot of other things you could have him doing) So yeah, from now on I'm going to be using Arceus as part of my cores in my Stall teams (Not too happy about it though) as Lugia has way too many flaws to do his job. (I wish he was Steel/Flying, then he would be E.MAZE.ING)

I didn't want to leave Lugia in the dust though so I've been doing a bit of research to try and find a niche set Lugia can use to set it apart from Arceus. The only things Lugia has going for it at the moment are Multiscale, double phazing, massive special bulk and, to some extent, Leftovers (unless you decide to use WallCeus). Sadly, Lugia's typing bites him in the butt again as a special wall as can't counter faster threats that pack SE coverage moves like Mewtwo. (who is countered by Physical Arceus under rain :( ) That leaves Multiscale (which can be abused with Magic Bounce PTR style but I'm not a big fan of that strat) while double phazing can be used for a speed shuffling set. I decided to test the RestShuffle set as it was something Arceus couldn't do while solving a lot of typical problems for Lugia. Rest cures Lugia of crippling status while Sleep Talk lets Lugia phaze out those pesky spinners and spikers before they can do anything. Although it is reliant on 66% dice rolls, Lugia's natural bulk and intact Multiscale (thanks Rest) helps give him a buffer against hax. Here's the results of my short bit of testing.

Test Team

From a team building perspective this set encounters its first flaw with its inability to provide essential support for team. Lugia isn't really lending a hand to the rest of the team, he's just profiting from Stalls ability to control the hazards game to troll the opposing team. Although he can do it successfully, it puts a crunch on team building as you are essentially trying to build a stall team with only 5 members. This explains my lack of revenge killer in this team example team. (I tried it with a Scarfer over a blocker but got annoyed that it became doubly important to beat down those spinners in spite of the ease with which the team could lay hazards) A different build can probably fit all the roles in but it's going to be a bit crunched.

Here are some replays showing how Lugia isn't bad at what he does:
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8457192
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8457985
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8462470

and here's one showing why TR stuck him in OO

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ubers8462049

I'm pretty depressed to see Lugia's true colors, if only he wasn't getting one-uped by stupid Arceus I would feel a lot better. (Maybe that Y bird will be the much desired bulky Steel/Flying?)

Mr.lol · Jan 25th, 2013, 6:34:58 PM

Yeah, the SR weakness really sucks for Lugia, Classic stall uses Forry for a reason... IF Sr isn't up Lugia actually beats Extremekiller lol. Rayquaza stilll is annoying since it has a decent chance to 2HKO without rocks if Lugia Reflects the turn after it uses its first move (just saying this is the reason why some Lugia run Reflect + Ice Beam + Whirlwind).

Quote:

I didn't want to leave Lugia in the dust though so I've been doing a bit of research to try and find a niche set Lugia can use to set it apart from Arceus. The only things Lugia has going for it at the moment are Multiscale, double phazing, massive special bulk and, to some extent, Leftovers (unless you decide to use WallCeus). Sadly, Lugia's typing bites him in the butt again as a special wall as can't counter faster threats that pack SE coverage moves like Mewtwo. (who is countered by Physical Arceus under rain :( ) That leaves Multiscale (which can be abused with Magic Bounce PTR style but I'm not a big fan of that strat) while double phazing can be used for a speed shuffling set. I decided to test the RestShuffle set as it was something Arceus couldn't do while solving a lot of typical problems for Lugia. Rest cures Lugia of crippling status while Sleep Talk lets Lugia phaze out those pesky spinners and spikers before they can do anything. Although it is reliant on 66% dice rolls, Lugia's natural bulk and intact Multiscale (thanks Rest) helps give him a buffer against hax. Here's the results of my short bit of testing.

Speed Shuffler is IMO one of Lugia's worser sets. I like the physically defensive set. Unlike Wall Arceus you have Pressure which makes it hilariously easy to stall stuff like Sacred Fire and Spacial Rend (this is why its such an amazing user of Sub Roost, compared to Arceus at least) . Lugia can bypass Forry and Excadrill, look at Trickroom's post but using that move generally just makes it harder for Lugia to wall stuff :(.

Quote:

From a team building perspective this set encounters its first flaw with its inability to provide essential support for team. Lugia isn't really lending a hand to the rest of the team, he's just profiting from Stalls ability to control the hazards game to troll the opposing team. Although he can do it successfully, it puts a crunch on team building as you are essentially trying to build a stall team with only 5 members. This explains my lack of revenge killer in this team example team. (I tried it with a Scarfer over a blocker but got annoyed that it became doubly important to beat down those spinners in spite of the ease with which the team could lay hazards) A different build can probably fit all the roles in but it's going to be a bit crunched.

You basically summarized the argument as to why everyone was hesitant to make Lugia have its own tier lol. Just saying though, running Scarf Kyogre > Rest Talk Ogre patches up the revenge killer problem, besides you already had two decent physical walls with reliable recovery in Lugia and Skarmory. This is called "compressing" (I would pull up Poppy's guide but I lack the link to his teambuilding thread).

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 25th, 2013, 6:55:00 PM

Yeah, I know that I could have switched Ogre to Scarf and other such changes. It was just a test team to see how well SpeedShuffler would work so I ignored the obvious flaws for the 10 or so battles I did with it as long as I got to see the set in action. (Cause I wanted to find some legitimate niche for Lugia)

Yeah but Arceus has no problem stalling out these attacks, anyways. Pressure is cool and all but that is a really small price to pay to avoid packing something with such a bad typing.

I was aware of Weather Ball, however that is weather reliant and gives up other important options like you said. Arceus doesn't really have this problem as he doesn't need Reflect as much as Lugia as he doesn't have to make up for a quarter of his HP being lost to SR. Plus, he actually has the movepool and attacking stats to reliably beat the spinners. (Plus you can make him a ghost type to block spin)

**trickroom** · Jan 26th, 2013, 2:09:58 AM

I love Lugia but the fact is it is pretty shit when it comes to providing team support, like what Melee Mewtwo posted.

Arceus loses to Mewtwo with Aura Sphere, so it doesn't really wall it in rain unless you are Dark/Psychic Arceus. Lugia can still take +1 Ice Beam and survive, phaze Mewtwo out but at that point, Lugia will be near useless, anything else faster will kill it. Stealth Rock also hurts Lugia a lot but you have to remember Arceus hates Spikes and Toxic Spikes, both of which when added together does more damage than Stealth Rock.

Spikes immune is just a small advantage Lugia has over Arceus but Arceus does not attract Spikes users as much anyway. I won't say Lugia is simply garbage at the moment because it has some use, but your team has to be made to support it. Something to setup Spikes, Stealth Rock and although not necessary, Lugia will work much better with Rapid Spin support.

Lugia's typing has some use actually, it beats Calm Mind Grass, Fighting, Ground and Psychic Arceus with Toxic and Roost. Shaymin-S is stopped by Lugia as well. Arceus loses due to lower special bulk and neutrality to their STABs. The huge list of weakness blows but it also gives Lugia the ability to check Giratina-O better. Even Calm Mind Shadow Ball Giratina-O can struggle to get past Lugia if you are carrying your own Calm Mind or Multiscale. Dragon Tail Giratina-O will annoy Arceus much more than Lugia because of the Spikes weak Arceus has. Just saying Kabutops can't OHKO Lugia, assuming no boost

Lugia can also wall Latios lacking Thunder or not in the rain. Latias is walled the same way, while Dialga has trouble with Lugia unless it is raining and even that can be foiled by Roost. Any paralysis occurs and Lugia will likely lose. Palkia needs either Choice Specs/Lustrous Orb or Thunder in rain to beat Lugia, otherwise it too is walled. Arceus loses to even Scarf Surf in rain.

Speed Shuffler set is pretty reliant on luck, 66% isn't close to perfect and even Dragon Tail can miss lol. Also, Stealth Rock messes it up a lot, you lose reliable recovery, one of Lugia's greatest asset over Groudon/Giratina as a wall and Rest is a horrible way to recover when you have better choices available. Sleep Talk phazing is only great versus some stall teams who lack a wall to hurt Lugia but you will now lose to a lot more offensive pokemon.

Melee Mewtwo · Jan 26th, 2013, 4:53:16 AM

I probably should have mentioned earlier that when I say Arceus I mean any of his forms. Sorry for the confusion. (Although, I will probably be using Ghostceus for a majority of my examples as I like him best at the moment.)

Mewtwo Calcs

So you have a solid Mewtwo counter without having to resort to checks like support Darkceus that have poor general usefulness.

Spikes immunity is a small advantage as not every team uses them and you still need to have 2 layers + SR before Arceus before Arceus starts to take more entry damage. (Unless you choose a SR resistant type in which case you need full layers) Being open to T Spikes is almost and advantage as it means you can throw out Arceus on a single layer so as to avoid any Toxics that would really cripple it. Plus, you can use the same support you use for Lugia and get better results out of Arceus.

Mixed bulk is something Lugia has going for it. However, that SR weakness still cripples it from being a very good switch-in to a majority of special attackers. Additionally, it is better to have a more reliable physical wall when it comes to building cores as Arceus + Chansey handles threats a lot better than Lugia + Chansey.

Special Calcs

Kabutops

Lugia suffers from Cube Syndrome, you are almost always better off running a defensive Arceus form with the exception of a few niche circumstances where Lugia's handful of minor advantages makes it a better pick.

I also agree that Speed Shuffler is a pretty crummy set. I was just trying to find a semi-legitimate niche for the poor guy which is why I made sure to mention his faults and include a video showcasing his justified OO status so as to not mislead readers. (it does get Roar as well as Whirlwind if you want to avoid any extra DTail hax)

Jan 12th, 2013, 9:42:05 AM	#26
Organization Member XIV Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 610 With Xerneas, in the Garden of Eden	Lugia is truly the Great Wall. It really doesn't need offense when it has 5 other teammates for that. Reliable recovery, phazing, ability to break shit down with Toxic is just urgh. Steels are annoying though as they are immune to Toxic. Multiscale is obnoxious as F**k, although this can be solved by statusing Lugia as Heal Bell and Aromatherapy are very rare in Ubers. But yeah, the set above specifically looks annoying to anything not named Steelceus. __________________ Bearkiller on PS and IRC. May also go by the name of Grima on IRC. I play League of Legends, so there's that. Also free Genesect plz. My LP.