Gen-NEXT development thread

[JamesSonofBaboonzo]

Here is a laundry list of ideas I had for the mod. Feedback is appreciated.

• Mind Reader and/or Lock on raise accuracy 6 stages.
  Keeps the feel, while making them much more useful. Instant counter to any evasion based strategy, as well as a boon to 'mons with powerful, but inaccurate moves, (like Magnezone's Zap Cannon). Also anything with Mind Reader+Stored Power would love this as they would be able to get a 140 BP attack with one turn of setup, at the cost of a move slot.
• Give Castform Hurricane, Mist, Haze, and Heat Wave.
  These are all weather related moves, and this is a weather focused mon.
• Make a hold Item that allows Zen Mode Darminitan come out with Zen Mode Activated.
  Zen Mode Darminitan is a great 'mon, but because of the current mechanics with Zen Mode, he is unusable. He deserves his chance to shine, and we have the tools to give him one.
• Boost Pursuit to Perfect accuracy, and let it ignore Protect.
  Vastly increases the utility of this move. Helps stop evasion passing, and can nail weak targets down when you need them to be.
• Spike Cannon becomes a Ground type move that hits once, and leaves a layer of spikes on hit.
  A version of spikes that cant be shut down with Taunt. Power and accuracy would probably need to be changed though, and maybe given a wider distribution.
• Buff Hex.
  Hex definitely lost its niche when you buffed Shadow Ball. I see more than one way to go about fixing it though.
  i) Buff the base power to 60 or 70, and let it keep the old effect.
  ii) Buff it to 75 base power, and make it a draining move.
  iii) Give it a chance to inflict Ghost Curse on the opponent, the chance reaching 100% if the target has a status condition.
• Remove negative priority from Avalanche, Vital Throw.
  You may have done this already, but I don't know.
• Give intrinsic ground immunity to 'mons that previously lacked a ground type immunity, but should have had one.
  This would include things such as Magnezone and Venomoth, that float/fly above the ground, but are still hit by ground based moves.
• Wonder Room acts like a global Ring Target, ignoring all type immunities.
  This would make things interesting. Under these conditions, a 'mon could attain perfect neutral coverage with just Return and Earthquake. This would be an interesting check to offensive 'mons that rely on immunities to be able to switch in, like Gengar or Jolteon.

[Yarnus of Bethany]

No, not like that. Here's an example.
Round 1:
Breloom uses Double Team!
Tornadus uses Hurricane! KO
Abomasnow is switched in.
Tornadus uses Focus Blast! The clones protect it.
Abomasnow uses Blizzard! KO

It would be used to help switch-ins, predictions, and just general strategy. It and protect wouldn't conflict in the way you're saying.

[JamesSonofBaboonzo]

@Yarnus of Bethany
So it acts like a delayed version of Protect, that leaves the user vulnerable on the turn it's used, but will activate the turn after? That sounds good to me, but I would change it so that it fails to protect against spread moves, (it wouldn't matter if the attacker didn't know which target to hit, if he hit all possible targets).

However, I notice as it stands it is possible for a Pokemon to protect itself twice in a row, and that could potentially be a problem. Here is an example of what I mean:

...

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Swampert Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 248-294 (70.05 - 83.05%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Round 1:
Gliscor used Double Team!
Swampart used Waterfall! It's Super Effective!!
Gliscor lost 76% of its health!
Gliscor's Toxic Orb activated (24%)

Round 2:
Gliscor used Toxic! Swampert was badly poisoned
Swampert used Waterfall!
Gliscor was protected by the clones!
Gliscor's Poison Heal heals it (36%)
Swampert is hurt by poison (94%)

Round 3:
Gliscor used Protect! Gliscor Protected itself!
Swampert used Waterfall!
Gliscor Protected itself!
Gliscor's Poison Heal heals it (49%)
Swampert is hurt by poison (82%)

I don't know if that would become a problem, or if Double Team would generally be preferred over a plane old Sub. But otherwise, this seems like an alright idea.

[Katakiri]

I've been sorting through abilities a bit for OU teams and I came up with something a little interesting.

Light Metal: On entry: Halves weight, +1 Speed, -1 Attack, -1 Defense (Like a Choice or Eviolite boost separate from normal stat-boosts), Displays message: "POKEMON is light on it's feet!" (Flavour: Lightly armored but there's not much weight behind it's attacks)

Heavy Metal: On entry: Doubles weight, -1 Speed, +1 Attack. +1 Defense (Like a Choice or Eviolite boost separate from normal stat-boosts), Displays message: "POKEMON treads heavily!" (Flavour: Heavily armored and can throw it's weight around but it costs speed)


Scizor and Bronzong do have these respective abilities, but the trade-off for using them is so steep that they lose the primary reasons they're OU in the first place; Technician and Levitate along with a great deal of Attack and Defense on Scizor's end. Even with a Swords Dance set, Scizor's lowered Defense, pitiful Attack (262 Max Adamant; 239 Jolly,) and low Base Power moves prevent it from even being threatening thanks to it's horrible super effective coverage. X-Scissor is it's strongest STAB...yeah. All it gains is a fast, but weak for a STAB, U-Turn. Choice Band can remedy it's attack but the kicker is that it has the same power and Speed as normal Choice Scarf Scizor AND it lacks Technician Pursuit. This is NOT a buff to Scizor by any stretch of the imagination and Bronzong's issue with Heavy Metal should be glaring. Trick Room is it's sole use for Bronzong but it's not worth losing the immunity that lets it set up Trick Room in the first place. The final nail in that coffin is that the ability notifies the other player so there's no bluffing it.

However, Metagross now sits at a very comfy little Speed tier with 393 Speed when Jolly and 358 Adamant but it completely lacks Attack, maxing out 246 Jolly and 270 Adamant. Metagross needs at least a Claw Sharpen and a Life Orb boost to even dream of sweeping anything, which really makes it a faster, less powerful and less bulky Durant. However, with a Life Orb, it has just enough power to revenge a large variety of Pokemon like Garchomp, Dragonite, and Terrakion thanks to it's great coverage options and that is where it's utility comes from.

Aggron sacrifices it's recoil immunity and Study to become THE hardest hitting Pokemon in the entire game! (by about 21 measly points with 525 Attack beating Deoxys-A's 504) The balancing factor is that Aggron is horrendously slow at 90 Speed with no investment, making it slower than Reuniclus and every single Physical Wall in the game with the exception of Ferrothorn and Dusclops. It's new and uninvested 594 Defense gives it the chance it needs to actually come into battle and just demolish something. It can be promptly revenged since it's so slow but it holds an absurd amount of power with Head Smash and even Heavy Slam with Heavy Metal increasing it's weight.

But yeah I'm just throwing ideas at the wall here.

[Zarel*]

I like the idea of Mind Reader / Lock On raising accuracy 6 stages.

I don't know about buffing Castform - weather is already pretty unpredictable in NEXT.

I don't plan to add intrinsic Ground immunity to anything that doesn't already have it.

My idea was for Light Metal to induce Magnet Rise (for 5 turns), and Heavy Metal to induce Gravity (for 5 turns). It's interesting because Gravity and Magnet Rise are pretty close to polar opposites of each other.

(thanks to PureQuestion for catching the typo)

[PureQuestion]

Levitate and Magnet Rise? Do you mean Magnet Rise and Gravity?

[Yarnus of Bethany]

Just to keep the flavour the same: you can make Wonder Room swap attacking stats, not defensive stats. This one change would help both mixed attackers and stall teams, both of which need help.

[JamesSonofBaboonzo]

@Yarnus of Bethany
Physical attacking Alakazam and Togekiss FTW!!!

@Zarel
I like the idea for Light/Heavy Metal. To me, it would also make sense for Magnet Pull to induce Magnet Rise. Im sure both Probopass, and Magnezone would appreciate having a double weakness removed on switch in.

[Katakiri]

Well aside from Aggron somehow manipulating Gravity, Magnet Rise & Gravity work for the Pokemon that get Light/Heavy Metal. Scizor and Metagross have always had the ability to fly or levitate in most relevant Pokemon media other than the handheld games. (Though it is implied)
My only issue is that the effects do not fit the abilities themselves at all. Having light armor or material doesn't allow something to fly and being heavily armored or weighting a ton doesn't directly affect its opponent in any way, much less inducing a gravitational pull.

[HabibsHotDogs]

I had an idea for heavy and light metal as well.

Heavy Metal - Doubles weight, boosts power of contact moves by 30%
Light Metal - Halves weight, boosts speed by 30%

It'd be great if we could get an official "mod" going for showdown, I was thinking, since we want to stick to flavour we can do it in stages.

1. Identify which abilities need a buff and buff accordingly, all pokemon using said abilities should be considered before buffing. For example: Shell armour - reduces contact damage by 50%, Main pokemon affected are Torterra and Lapras, this does not forseeably make any current pokemon broken but improves little used pokemon -> implement

2. Then moves should be considered for buffing. For example: Sludge bomb - 30% chance to cause toxic poisoning, Main pokemon affected will be pokemon with poison STAB, does not have any serene grace abusers, does not look forseeably broken -> implement.

3. Then we can consider newly "learnt" moves/abilties pokemon could have have. For example: Weavile with Technician.

4. Then we can consider new moves and abilities similar to what happens in CAP! For example: Mountaineer - Cannot be damaged by rock type attacks

If we can get a community going on this to voice opinions, vote, etc it'd be awesome! It'd also be possible to add CAP pokemon (although we'd have to buff/nerf where applicable such as tomohawk...)

The idea would be to keep the flavour there without taking away from what nintendo has already given us

[The_Eevee_General]

Similar to JamesSonofBaboonzo's idea on Spike Cannon... but actually very different.

Spike Cannon functions normally if there are no Spikes/Toxic Spikes on your side of the field.

• If there is 1 layer of regular Spikes, it becomes a 40bp Ground-type attack that hits once and removes the Spikes from your side of the field.

• If there are 2 layers of Spikes, it becomes a 40bp Ground-type attack that hits twice and removes the Spikes.

• If there are 3 layers of Spikes, it becomes a 40bp Ground-type attack that hits three times and removes the Spikes.

• If there is 1 layer of Toxic Spikes, it becomes a 40bp Poison-type attack that hits once and removes the Toxic Spikes from your side of the field AND has a 50% chance to Poison.

• If there are 2 layers of Toxic Spikes, it becomes a 40bp Poison-type attack that hits once and removes the Toxic Spikes from your side of the field AND has either a 100% chance to Poison or a 50% chance to Toxic Poison (Zarel will ultimately decide which secondary effect applies).

If there are both Spikes and Toxic Spikes, the move functions as a combination of both.

• 1,2, or 3 layers Spikes + 1 layer of Toxic Spikes: 40bp Ground-type attack (hits 1, 2, or 3 times) with 30% chance to Poison for each hit.

• 1, 2, or 3 layers Spikes + 2 layers of Toxic Spikes: 40bp Ground-type attack (hits 1, 2, or 3 times) with 60% chance to Poison for each hit.

And

Rock Throw functions normally if Stealth Rock is not on your side of the field. If SR is on your side it becomes a 100bp Rock-type attack still with 90% accuracy and removes the SR after the attack.

Essentially, the moves have their draw-backs. Spike Cannon can be 'spin blocked' by Flying- and Steel-types depending if it hits as a Ground- or Poison-type attack.

Rock Throw still has 90% accuracy so it is also no guarantee at removing SR.

[HabibsHotDogs]

Originally Posted by Fat The_Eevee_General

Rock Throw functions normally if Stealth Rock is not on your side of the field. If SR is on your side it becomes a 100bp Rock-type attack still with 90% accuracy and removes the SR after the attack.

Holy chit this is the most awesome suggestion I've seen :P

I'll be posting some suggestions in a moment and commenting on current changes althout Zarel has a rather large list so I might be a while

[ElectivireRocks]

Originally Posted by Fat The_Eevee_General

Rock Throw functions normally if Stealth Rock is not on your side of the field. If SR is on your side it becomes a 100bp Rock-type attack still with 90% accuracy and removes the SR after the attack.

100 BP seems a bit too high TBH. Either decrease the accuracy a bit (85% sounds fair) or make it 70-80 BP.

[Mari]

I have a nice proposal for Double team:

This move creates two Substitutes (clones) with 1 HP each. However there is only a 50% chance that a clone absorbs a hit or a non-damaging move. Then the clone is removed. Otherwise the "original" Pokémon is hit. Double team can be Baton passed and is not stackable and has no effects on abilities or items (like Effect Spore, Imposter or Rocky Helmet). The combination of Substitute and Double team always fails. The clones do not.protect against Entry hazards. They can prevent secondary effects (like those of Thief or Zap Cannon).

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat ElectivireRocks

100 BP seems a bit too high TBH. Either decrease the accuracy a bit (85% sounds fair) or make it 70-80 BP.

Well since Rock Throw's BP is 100 only when Stealth Rock is active on your side of the field and the move removes SR I figured doubling the BP was more incentive to use the move. Normally it would hit for only 50 BP (and still with 90% accuracy) so there isn't much use for the move other than removing SR.

[Zarel*]

I like the ideas for Spike Cannon and Rock Throw, although I'll probably modify Spike Cannon a bit to make it less complicated.

All the Double Team suggestions so far strike me as too complicated. Honestly, since Double Team is a TM that nearly every pokemon can learn, I want it to be on the weak side so very few pokemon will want to use it.

What do you guys think of -1/4 HP, +1 evasion, +1 speed?

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I still like mine better, but that sounds good.

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

I like the ideas for Spike Cannon and Rock Throw, although I'll probably modify Spike Cannon a bit to make it less complicated.

Here are the fully-evolved Pokemon that learn Rock Throw. Ideas for additions in bold:
Archeops
Carracosta
Conkeldurr
Golem
Landorus
Lunatone
Magcargo
Probopass
Regirock
Solrock
Steelix
Sudowoodo
Aerodactyl
Aggron
Armaldo
Braviary
Cradily
Excadrill
Gigalith
Gliscor
Groudon
Hariyama
Lucario
Machamp
Mienshao
Rampardos
Rhyperior
Seismitoad
Shuckle
Terrakion
Tyranitar


Spike Cannon. Ideas for additions in bold:
Cloyster
Corsola
Omastar
Beedrill
Cacturne
Drapion
Escavalier
Excadrill
Forretress
Glalie
Maractus
Mawile
Qwilfish
Rhyperior
Scolipede

[tehy]

So just to clarify-are you seriously suggesting that there should be an unblockable attack that not only removes SR but deals heavy damage and has great distribution? Isn't this kind of ridiculous? Maybe it could gain power while SR is up, but completely removing it... well, at the very least that's a massive metagame shift, and it seem a little ridiculous. Yes, it has a 10% chance to miss, but come on. Oh and "Normally there isn't much use for the move besides removing SR". Well... yeah? Sort of the greatest use ever, especially for anti-lead style pokemon.

Spike cannon is a little better, since the spike version is blockable by flying-types, levitators, and the intrinsic levitators of this game. T-spikes is blocked by steels, and anyhow a grounded poison-type can absorb those unblockably.

I have some suggestions there:
For T-spikes: If there's one layer, one hit, 50% to poison. If there's 2 layers, 2 hits, 50% chance to Toxic. This removes the chance to Toxic AND regular poison, and makes it stronger (40 BP still sucks).
For the combo hits: Either make it 50 and 100 or just keep it the same as above.

[Zarel*]

2 mons in OU and 11 mons overall is not "great distribution".

And 100 base power for a situational attack isn't exactly great. It's like Rock Gem HP Rock. Except without the additional coverage, since you probably don't want a 50bp move to be your only Rock STAB.

The main thing it would change would be to make spinblocking harder. But it's not overpowered on an antimetagame move. Remember, it's completely useless unless there are rocks up.

[Spica]

I like the Rock Throw suggestion, but I'm not as sold on Spike Cannon. I think the proposed version that has a chance of leaving spikes on the opponent's side is more interesting.

Overall, I think the spinner / spinblocker sub-game is good strategic nuance. Another possible counter to SR is one thing, but something that would undo the hard work to set up an entry hazard shuffling strategy with multi-layer spikes on a dedicated team with a spinblocker and all would be unwelcome. The distribution of spike cannon is so narrow that it would come out of the blue and blind-side careful stall players even if room could be made for an "anti-spike cannon" pokémon in theory. They have enough of unpredictable threats as is. Add to that the complication that the move can be potentially 3 different types, can inflict status and can hit 1, 2, 3, or 2 - 5 times with base power 40 or 20 depending on circumstances and I don't like it.

―――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――――

I think -1/4 HP, +1 evasion, +1 speed could work for Double Team, but it would make me want Minimize to give +1 evasion, +1 speed with no downside. Originally, Minimize was strictly better.

[The_Eevee_General]

Originally Posted by Fat tehy

So just to clarify-are you seriously suggesting that there should be an unblockable attack that not only removes SR but deals heavy damage and has great distribution? Isn't this kind of ridiculous? Maybe it could gain power while SR is up, but completely removing it... well, at the very least that's a massive metagame shift, and it seem a little ridiculous.

Yes, but wasn't SR kind of ridiculous and game-changing to begin with too?

A move that strips Pokemon of their health (up to 50%) just by switching in. I know Zarel changed the mechanics, but still it's a huge damper on Flying-types. There isn't much use for this move outside of removing SR as I said before. Just like you don't use Rapid Spin unless you want to remove hazards, you won't use Rock Throw unless you want to remove SR (unless something with Technician gets it, then I guess it's somewhat usable.) The fact it gets such a boost to BP is the incentive to use it over Rapid Spin but in the process forgo any chance to remove Spikes (or Leech Seed). To me that's a trade-off and risk: you may essentially waste a moveslot hoping your foe will use SR--or even carry it--but if the opportunity arises you can remove it and deal a good amount of damage. Plus it doesn't even get STAB on most Pokemon with its current distribution. If the proposed Pokemon get it, Terrakion and Tyranitar would probably be the biggest users of the move with STAB.

I have some suggestions there:
For T-spikes: If there's one layer, one hit, 50% to poison. If there's 2 layers, 2 hits, 50% chance to Toxic. This removes the chance to Toxic AND regular poison, and makes it stronger (40 BP still sucks).
For the combo hits: Either make it 50 and 100 or just keep it the same as above.

I edited my earlier post. For T-spikes, I only meant that 2 layers would either 100% Poison or have a 50% chance to Toxic Poison, letting Zarel decide between the two options. Or of course completely change it altogether.

[Katakiri]

I have a few small suggestions all relating to Archeops.

• Defeatist still halves both stats but activates at 1/3rd Max HP. (Reverse Overgrow/Blaze/Swarm)
• Archeops gains Klutz as it's 2nd ability.

IMO Archeops is a Pokemon so nerfed that, unless you play RU, you will almost never run into it and it's a shame because its stats are entirely OU-worthy and it could certainly mix things up in OU. With these changes, Archeops becomes a much more usable Pokemon while still being moderately nerfed. In theory, not being able to hold an item forces it to rely on it's great Super Effective coverage and less on its raw power which I think is fair for something with those kinda of stats and coverage.

[ChaosAkita]

I think that while Spike Cannon is really flavorful, technically, the original concept of Spikes refers to caltrops. Just a little something to keep in mind.

And some comments:

Originally Posted by Fat JamesSonofBaboonzo

Here is a laundry list of ideas I had for the mod. Feedback is appreciated.[*]Mind Reader and/or Lock on raise accuracy 6 stages.
Keeps the feel, while making them much more useful. Instant counter to any evasion based strategy, as well as a boon to 'mons with powerful, but inaccurate moves, (like Magnezone's Zap Cannon). Also anything with Mind Reader+Stored Power would love this as they would be able to get a 140 BP attack with one turn of setup, at the cost of a move slot.

The Mind Reader + Stored Power idea sounds cool, but current no Pokemon have both moves. But I don't see why a weaker Pokemon like Chimecho couldn't get Mind Reader in order to take advantage of this, and it would still be flavorful.

[*]Make a hold Item that allows Zen Mode Darminitan come out with Zen Mode Activated.
Zen Mode Darminitan is a great 'mon, but because of the current mechanics with Zen Mode, he is unusable. He deserves his chance to shine, and we have the tools to give him one.

Great idea! Why not?

[*]Buff Hex.
Hex definitely lost its niche when you buffed Shadow Ball. I see more than one way to go about fixing it though.
i) Buff the base power to 60 or 70, and let it keep the old effect.
ii) Buff it to 75 base power, and make it a draining move.
iii) Give it a chance to inflict Ghost Curse on the opponent, the chance reaching 100% if the target has a status condition.

More interesting move effects is always positive, in my opinion.

[*]Remove negative priority from Avalanche, Vital Throw.
You may have done this already, but I don't know.

I disagree. I feel like the negative priority is part of the move's flavor. However, instead, I think the moves' BP should be buffed.

[quote[[*]Give intrinsic ground immunity to 'mons that previously lacked a ground type immunity, but should have had one.
This would include things such as Magnezone and Venomoth, that float/fly above the ground, but are still hit by ground based moves.
[/quote]

I like this idea. However, I do feel that it might make the Magnemite line too powerful, but other than that, it'd be fine.

[JamesSonofBaboonzo]

Originally Posted by Fat ChaosAkita

The Mind Reader + Stored Power idea sounds cool, but current no Pokemon have both moves. But I don't see why a weaker Pokemon like Chimecho couldn't get Mind Reader in order to take advantage of this, and it would still be flavorful.

Yeah, hadn't actually bothered to check whether or not anything could learn both moves before posting that, though I think that most people wouldn't blame me in expecting more Psychic type Pokemon to learn to move Mind Reader. I have discovered however that there are 'mons with both Mind Reader and Baton Pass, so even if Mind Reader isn't given a larger distribution, it is still possible to get a quick 140+ BP Psychic attack, granted much more team support is necessary.

I disagree. I feel like the negative priority [of Avalanche and Vital Throw] is part of the move's flavor. However, instead, I think the moves' BP should be buffed.

Fair enough. I would also give Vital Throw the ability to go around Protect and/or Substitute.

I like this idea. However, I do feel that it might make the Magnemite line too powerful, but other than that, it'd be fine.

I see why Zarel isn't extending the immunity to those that don't already have it, as I highly doubt gamefreak would do the same, and I see the risk in giving it to already powerful 'mons like Magnezone, Chandlure, or Volcarona. While the flavor reasoning for these are valid imo, we still need to make sure everything is properly balanced.

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

I have a few small suggestions all relating to Archeops.

• Defeatist still halves both stats but activates at 1/3rd Max HP. (Reverse Overgrow/Blaze/Swarm)
• Archeops gains Klutz as it's 2nd ability.

IMO Archeops is a Pokemon so nerfed that, unless you play RU, you will almost never run into it and it's a shame because its stats are entirely OU-worthy and it could certainly mix things up in OU. With these changes, Archeops becomes a much more usable Pokemon while still being moderately nerfed. In theory, not being able to hold an item forces it to rely on it's great Super Effective coverage and less on its raw power which I think is fair for something with those kinda of stats and coverage.

As someone who uses Archeops in RU and in BH, I can say with full confidence that it deserves to be better than what it actually is, much like Regigigas, Darminitan-Z, and Kyurem. I am all in favor of any change that makes it more usable in OU.

Also I had one other idea I thought I would share with the world...

• Anticipation and/or Analytic give the opponent Torment for as long as the user is on the field.
  The idea being that the Pokemon with Anticipation/Analytic is able to anticipate and avoid repeated attacks. What do you people think about it?