Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

That turns it into eight turns. No sane player is going to let you get eight turns of set up with Ferrothorn.



And I have multiple answers to Ferrothorn on my rain team.


33% is horrible. Moonlight would be bad even if it was 50% in all weathers. Your theoretical set is Psyshock / Calm Mind / Moonlight, which is a very bad set. You are completely walled by Tyranitar and other dark (and steel, which amusingly enough includes skarmory even though he sees no use in doubles) types unless you give up protect, and then you have no access to Protect, good day Cresselia.

also moonlight heals 25% in rain. which is really loving bad.

Tornadus-T is still p. decent even in Doubles honestly. And you still have Volcarona, Toxicroak, Latios, all sorts of stuff to fear. Rain teams don't need to exclusively have rain mons. In fact you can even use Keldeo to check Ferrothorn if you use HP Fighting or Focus Blast instead of Sacred Sword (which isn't very important when a physical partner can swoop in to save the day vs fat blobs and friends).


So once again, I repeat: Dedicated Cress support to the point that you're using a suboptimal cress set to beat one of Ferro's counters, and four-to-eight turn set up for something that doesn't even guarantee a win. Once again, I don't think Ferrothorn's bad, but really that sounds like too much work to be considered "amazing." If we were doing viability tiers, I'd say he'd fall in B tier.

Oh yeah and he's complete dead weight against Sun teams and any team with fire type attacks so there's that.

The thing is, I've never lost to another sun team and I've lost more games to Hail than to Rain, as Hail has to gear toward Sun Teams and Rain teams are usually pretty lazy about Sun counters.

We could agree to disagree, but Ferrothorn has won me more games IN SUN than I can count at this point, which says something about his massive bulk and staying power in Doubles.

[nyttyn]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8421849 Regiggas VS the world

[Zarel*]

BlankZero, you could really settle this with some more replays. :3

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

BlankZero, you could really settle this with some more replays. :3

I could, but I'm currently playing in the International Tour on WiFi, so I'll do it later. Ferrothorn is still ridiculous.

[youngjake93]

Ferrothorn is only good if you whore Protect.
Scout fire/fighting moves, switch to a resist and let it heal all that damage with leech seed.

Another thing... Why do people always say switching is uncommon in doubles? I switch more often in doubles than in singles tbh. Mainly because you don't necessarily lose momentum because you can still KO something that turn. It also resets Intimidate, Fake Out and Protect/Detect/Wide Guard.

[nyttyn]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8431968 Toxicroak vs Ferrothorn settled once and for all.

Standard nasty plot also wins! http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou8432152

As does Bulk Up http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8432311

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8431968 Toxicroak vs Ferrothorn settled once and for all.

Standard nasty plot also wins! http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-ou8432152

As does Bulk Up http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou8432311

You're such an evil monkey.

The HP Fire set was pure lulz and I laughed quite a bit at this testing.

However, we did play two games and went 1 : 1 against my Sun with his Sand and Rain, in that order. I managed to save the Sand game, but the Rain game wouldn't save for some reason or another. Both great games though, and the rain team was a close match. I did pretty much steamroll his Sand though.

I'll post the Sand match when I get back to my computer. I have the link saved there.

Fun games Nyttyn, although Ferroboss still rocks in Doubles.

Edit: Zarel, I do think Ally Switch is bugged out in Doubles for the moment, but a question nonetheless, if you were to use Ally Switch on, say, a weather setter or Intimidater, would the Ability reproduce? Or is just a strait switch of placement?

[nyttyn]

game 1: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8430856

Sand vs Sun

I went into this game not really aware of what Blank's strategy was, leaving to me not realizing he would call my offenses in some very risky plays. Quite a few groan-worthy moves on my part as a result.

Game 2:

Rain vs Sun

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8431377

Won this time due to realizing BlankZero's philosphy, battle wise. Ferrothron OHKO'd in the RAIN 2 weak. Had some pretty stupid moves, like rain dancing w/o protect turn 1 forgetting speed is calculated at the start of the turn.

Also no blank, it won't reactivate. You'd have to skill swap it.

[BlankZero]

Thanks for clarifying that Nyttyn.

Also, I do play pretty risky moves. Not always, but if you don't take risks, you'll lose more games than you'll win.

[NidoJosh]

I've been playing this metagame for the past few days and I'm hooked!
Easily my favourite metagame at the moment due to the fast paced nature and unpredictability
I've been running sand, which has proven to be pretty effective teamed up with Excadrill.
Gastrodon is sometimes a pain but some people just aren't playing it well enough.. letting it die too quickly. I usually target it because I hate the thing and they keep it in when I can definitely KO it. Another surprise annoyance is Cherrim..

[nyttyn]

Haha, time to drop a serious bombshell I've been abusing for awhile.

Min- Min Max Max+
HP
- 311 374 -
Atk
140 156 219 240
Def
149 166 229 251
SpA
275 306 369 405
SpD
221 246 309 339
Spe
212 236 299 328

Oh god. Volcarona. Ahahaha. AAHAHAHHA! POWER! OVERWHEMLING POW-*cough* Volcarona is an extremely good pokemon right now. First thing that will come to eye is the base stats: Obscene 306 base special attack? Workable 236 base speed? Amazing! And it just gets better. Sporting 311/166/246 bulk, Volcarona has just enough HP to set up in the face of many pokemon, with the resistances to boot - Fighting, Grass, Ice, Bug, and Steel resistances. The first four are the only really important ones. It also only fears three attacking types - unfortunately, they're Water, Rock, and Flying. Rock is a very big deal because of Rock Slide, which is on a lot of mons.

But just look at the positives! The power, the STABs...The best part? Volcarona's Heat Wave will always, no matter what, OHKO Standard Ferrothorn with a simple Fire Gem. At worst, Volcarona gets a 2hko. Without any item boost. At +0 SpAtk. In the Rain. And it knocks it down so low that its partner is pretty much going to kill it unless Ferrothorn hard walls them.

252SpAtk Fire Gem Swarm Volcarona (Neutral) Heat Wave vs 252HP/108SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 229% - 270% (808 - 952 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (Neutral) Heat Wave vs 252HP/108SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 153% - 181% (540 - 640 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Fire Gem Swarm Volcarona (Neutral) Heat Wave in Rain vs 252HP/108SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 115% - 136% (408 - 480 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252SpAtk Swarm Volcarona (Neutral) Heat Wave in Rain vs 252HP/108SpDef Ferrothorn (Neutral): 76% - 92% (268 - 324 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Yeouch. Yeah, that's the kind of power Volcarona's packing. From Heat Wave. That last one is at +0, with a neutral nature, and with a spread move, which only deals 75 BP because of the spread cut. With no item. In the sodding rain.

Under the Rain, it also has access to the amazing move Hurricane at 100% accuracy. Say what you will about the lack of STAB, 120 BP flying coverage that has a moderate confuse chance is absolute insane on a pokemon with Volcarona's stats.

Finally, it has access to Rage Powder, which is a really cool move that you can pull out of your ass to win games.

Make sure to pair Volcarona with something that threatens rock types, due to the fact that Volcarona flat out loses to Rock Types unless it is packing Hidden Power Fighting.

I invite you to find out your own amazing Volcarona sets and share them with the thread For now, here's my own personal drizzle moth set that shows the versatility of this amazing bug type (I never thought I'd ever say amazing bug type):

Volcy~ (F) @ Fire Gem
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Quiver Dance
- Hurricane
- Protect


Meanwhile, here's a standard Volcarona - Hitmontop - Latios core that's obscenely scary. Very hard to stop and it'll wreck your opponent's shit 90% of the time even if they can stop it.

core

---

ILuvNyt (Volcarona) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Flame Body
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Heat Wave
- Bug Buzz
- Quiver Dance
- Protect

WOOSH (Latios) (M) @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psychic
- Substitute
- Protect

Karate Dan (Hitmontop) (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Game 2:

Rain vs Sun

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8431377

Won this time due to realizing BlankZero's philosphy, battle wise. Ferrothron OHKO'd in the RAIN 2 weak. Had some pretty stupid moves, like rain dancing w/o protect turn 1 forgetting speed is calculated at the start of the turn.

I'm confused by the Keldeo running HP Fighting instead of Secret Sword.

[nyttyn]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

I'm confused by the Keldeo running HP Fighting instead of Secret Sword.

Precaution against Ferrothorn. I don't want to rely on Focus Miss's accuracy, HP Fight usually gets the job done against it, and other things fight weak, and isn't a contact move which can realllly fuck you over sometimes. Only things I'd really want to nail with Secret over HP Fight are the blobs and Tyranitar, and Toxicroak can handle them both with extreme ease.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Precaution against Ferrothorn. I don't want to rely on Focus Miss's accuracy, HP Fight usually gets the job done against it, and other things fight weak, and isn't a contact move which can realllly fuck you over sometimes. Only things I'd really want to nail with Secret over HP Fight are the blobs and Tyranitar, and Toxicroak can handle them both with extreme ease.

...Secret Sword isn't a contact move.

[nyttyn]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

...Secret Sword isn't a contact move.

Then you better fix it because it's a contact move on PS! right now. Actually suicided on a Ferrothorn as a result. Wasn't a fun surprise. It was like one of those surprises your neighbor's dog leaves on your lawn.

[OVERGRO]

nyttyn, that core that you posted about Volcarona is pretty much right out of VGC, I've used it before!

You're very right that it works incredibly well, and that Volc has use on semi-rain teams with Hurricane! (Also Heat Wave has 100 power before the spread damage decrease is factored in. :3)

Volcarona's Quiver Dance is actually possible to be made even more deadly with Simple Beam, and although it's gimmicky, if you can pull it off, that's a +2/+2/+2 Volcarona coming at you... and if Sun manages to get up and stay up, Heat Wave is incredible. (Even in the rain, +2 stats and Hurricane are great.)

Simple Beam was pretty trash in VGC. However, here in Smogon Doubles, we have Genesect. 99 base speed, and good typing. The only other real alternative is Linoone and Beheeyem...

And this brings me to another topic: Genesect! I haven't seen him anywhere! He's got the same type synergy as Scizor, has pretty decent defenses for a sweeper, and can run a versatile Expert Belt Special or Physical set. Where is he? Or will he appear later on...

[iRenzo]

I used Genesect for a while in my trick room team. Faster than most bulky support but slower than the speed demons. The problem I found was with it's pretty meh movepool. You basically have to run 3 elemental attack and protect which is pretty easy to predict and doesn't hurt top usage pokemon enough (Cresselia, Tryanitar, Hitmontop etc). It's speed isn't good enough for it to be a sweeper so probably needs Icy Wind, paralysis support. It could work with the right support, it's just easier to run Latios.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Then you better fix it because it's a contact move on PS! right now. Actually suicided on a Ferrothorn as a result. Wasn't a fun surprise. It was like one of those surprises your neighbor's dog leaves on your lawn.

Did you typo "Sacred Sword" instead of "Secret Sword"? Secret Sword has always been a noncontact move in PS.

[Manitary]

I just tested and Secret Sword isn't a contact move on PS, so it's not bugged

[nyttyn]

I may have typo'd it in that case, which means I'm an absolute retard.

Point still stands on HP fighting though.

Anyways yeah, Genesect's really hurt in this meta by having to deal with two targets at once, plus download's random activation, plus his (by doubles standards) meh movepool. Not to mention a quadruple weakness to a common spread move. It can work, but it just needs too much support to really..well, work.

And Simple Beam's problem is that you have to hit the poke you want to simple with it first - this can be absolutely nightmarish on someone like Regigias or Dragonite, but isn't terribly good on things like Volcarona.

Also appologies to Zarel, that post came off as passive aggressive and I didn't mean it to. Sorry about that.

[PenguinX]

Okay this thread is really shit so lets discuss something interesting.

Skill Swap
Skill Swap will exchange the Abilities of the user and the target. Wonder Guard and Multiscale cannot be Skill Swapped. If the user switches out of battle after using this move, its original Ability will be restored.
Notable users: Cresselia, Blissey

Role Play
Role Play replaces the user's Ability with the target's Ability. Role Play cannot copy Wonder Guard or Multitype.
Notable users: Abomasnow, Mew, Latias, Thundurus, Landorus

Very cool abilities that open up a lot of new doors strategy-wise. Skill Swap has seen use in the past for gimmicky strategies with garbage Pokemon like Regigigas and Slaking, but I feel it has a ton of interesting uses that are waiting to be uncovered. Skill Swap has also seen some usage recently in the VGC metagame, with Wolfe Glick using a Skill Swap Cresselia + Heatran combination at 2012 Worlds and Huy Ha using a Skill Swap Serene Grace Blissey with Abomasnow and other Blizzard users.

Role Play is more widespread than Skill Swap and is learnt by, generally, more relevant Pokemon. However, it works a bit differently to Skill Swap, by copying the ability of the target instead of swapping abilities. As a result, its a bit less useful for setting up specific strategies like the ones listed above, but it ends up being very useful in a lot of match-ups. For example, you can clutch Role Play an Intimidate Landorus-T, Scrafty of Hitmontop to really mess-up your opponent, or Role Play a Swift Swim user against Rain to give you a very strong check to them. Role Play can also be used to reactive weathers by copying the weather ability from something like Tyranitar, Politoed or Abomasnow. I've started using Role Play as just a random 4th slot on some Pokemon as a pure clutch option in some select match-ups even though my team isn't built around the attack, as Skill Swap teams tend to be.

Although Skill Swap can do all this too, theres an added risk to it - if you are using Skill Swap its generally because the Pokemon using it has an excellent ability like Levitate (Cresselia), which has the chance of backfiring if you swap it to an opposing Pokemon. Swapping Cresselia's Levitate for Hitmontop's Intimidate, for example, could turn on you by allowing your opponent to freely throw around Earthquakes with less fear. However, despite this, Skill Swap can sometimes have a key role in removing the abilities from certain Pokemon, such as crippling bulky Thundurus-i by removing Prankster, and making Metagross Intimidate-susceptible by removing Clear Body.

So yeah, both very interesting support moves. Skill Swap is excellent at setting-up stuff like Levitate Heatran, but requires a lot of forward planning to pull-off more intricate strategies involving the opponents Pokemon. However, despite the higher risk and greater difficulty, the payouts are often huge. Role Play, however, isn't as great at setting up your own strategies as it is for just clutch moves in specific match-ups, and ends up being particularly effective against any teams utilising Swift Swim, Chlorophyll or Intimidate in particular, although for something like Bisharp, copying the likes of Landorus-T Levitate or Heatran Flash Fire can completely change the outcome of a game.

Thoughts? I feel both of these moves are still criminally underused given how important abilities are in Pokemon, especially in the fast paced doubles format.

[Mymom234]

Originally Posted by Fat PenguinX

Okay this thread is really shit so lets discuss something interesting.

Skill Swap
Skill Swap will exchange the Abilities of the user and the target. Wonder Guard and Multiscale cannot be Skill Swapped. If the user switches out of battle after using this move, its original Ability will be restored.
Notable users: Cresselia, Blissey

Role Play
Role Play replaces the user's Ability with the target's Ability. Role Play cannot copy Wonder Guard or Multitype.
Notable users: Abomasnow, Mew, Latias, Thundurus, Landorus

Very cool abilities that open up a lot of new doors strategy-wise. Skill Swap has seen use in the past for gimmicky strategies with garbage Pokemon like Regigigas and Slaking, but I feel it has a ton of interesting uses that are waiting to be uncovered. Skill Swap has also seen some usage recently in the VGC metagame, with Wolfe Glick using a Skill Swap Cresselia + Heatran combination at 2012 Worlds and Huy Ha using a Skill Swap Serene Grace Blissey with Abomasnow and other Blizzard users.

Role Play is more widespread than Skill Swap and is learnt by, generally, more relevant Pokemon. However, it works a bit differently to Skill Swap, by copying the ability of the target instead of swapping abilities. As a result, its a bit less useful for setting up specific strategies like the ones listed above, but it ends up being very useful in a lot of match-ups. For example, you can clutch Role Play an Intimidate Landorus-T, Scrafty of Hitmontop to really mess-up your opponent, or Role Play a Swift Swim user against Rain to give you a very strong check to them. Role Play can also be used to reactive weathers by copying the weather ability from something like Tyranitar, Politoed or Abomasnow. I've started using Role Play as just a random 4th slot on some Pokemon as a pure clutch option in some select match-ups even though my team isn't built around the attack, as Skill Swap teams tend to be.

Although Skill Swap can do all this too, theres an added risk to it - if you are using Skill Swap its generally because the Pokemon using it has an excellent ability like Levitate (Cresselia), which has the chance of backfiring if you swap it to an opposing Pokemon. Swapping Cresselia's Levitate for Hitmontop's Intimidate, for example, could turn on you by allowing your opponent to freely throw around Earthquakes with less fear. However, despite this, Skill Swap can sometimes have a key role in removing the abilities from certain Pokemon, such as crippling bulky Thundurus-i by removing Prankster, and making Metagross Intimidate-susceptible by removing Clear Body.

So yeah, both very interesting support moves. Skill Swap is excellent at setting-up stuff like Levitate Heatran, but requires a lot of forward planning to pull-off more intricate strategies involving the opponents Pokemon. However, despite the higher risk and greater difficulty, the payouts are often huge. Role Play, however, isn't as great at setting up your own strategies as it is for just clutch moves in specific match-ups, and ends up being particularly effective against any teams utilising Swift Swim, Chlorophyll or Intimidate in particular, although for something like Bisharp, copying the likes of Landorus-T Levitate or Heatran Flash Fire can completely change the outcome of a game.

Thoughts? I feel both of these moves are still criminally underused given how important abilities are in Pokemon, especially in the fast paced doubles format.

I was thinking this myself, I have been using entrainment with klutz audino and mimic shedinja. Pretty gimmicky but klutz renders leftovers useless, and shedinja with entrainment is...well....wonderous! (punpunpunpunpun)

[NixHex]

Originally Posted by Fat Entrainment

Description

Changes the target's ability to that of the user. Fails if the target actually has Multitype, Truant, or the same ability as the user. Pokemon protected by Magic Coat or the ability Magic Bounce are unaffected and instead use this move themselves.
This move fails if the user has any of the following abilities:

• Flower Gift
• Forecast
• Illusion
• Imposter
• Multitype
• Trace
• Wonder Guard
• Zen Mode

Sorry bud, that strategy isn't going to work.

[moot]

Originally Posted by Fat SubwayJ

I think I'd like to show an interesting pair I've been having pretty good success with

@ Choice Scarf
Trait: Drought
EVs: 4HP, 252Atk, 252Spe
Nature: Adamant (+Atk -SpAtk)
-Flare Blitz
-Zen Headbutt
-Quick Attack
-Return

Yes, it is a physical ninetales, you aren't going crazy. This thing alone doesn't have much purpose other than putting up sun, but when paired with it's partner, kills things like crazy!

@ Leftovers
Trait: Flower Gift
EVs: 252HP, 4SpAtk, 252SpDef
Nature: Calm (+SpDef -Atk)
-Giga Drain
-Protect
-Synthesis
-Aromatherapy

Cherrim! This little fella has so much awesomeness that just comes from flower gift. Ninetails Flare Blitz now hits just as strong as one from Darmanitan! Cherrim itself is surprisingly bulky on the special side and can stay alive for quite a while with Synthesis/Giga Drain+Protect allowing havoc to be wreaked!


These two offer a lot of surprise value and are very fun to use :P

A really interesting idea and I like the Flower Gift combo with physical Ninetales, but I'm curious as to how you actually use it. Do you lead with this to set up sun turn 1? If so it seems like it gets screwed over by slower weather.

[Pocket]

Yea, Volcarona in doubles rocks. Quiver Dance combined with spread Heat Wave is too good, not to mention Bug Buzz to overcome Cresselia. Voodoo_pimp coupled the fiery mothra with Weavile for Fake Out and Ice Sharding Salamence, but I can definitely see Hitmontop being useful for removing Heatran. Blaziken48 posted a log earlier pairing Volcarona with another bug, Genesect! The latter is one of the few users with access to Simple Beam, which it used on Volcarona for a +2/+2/+2 QD boost ftw!

PENGUX!!!

Yea, Skill Swap is a cool ability that have been discussed in detail earlier by Level 51. He had Technician Mr. Mime skill swap with Mamoswine xD. Technician Ice Shard / Icicle Spear ftw, lol! Mr. Mime is a shitty Pokemon, but Skill Swap is a really underrated move in doubles, especially on other users like Bronzong or Cresselia. For instance, NixHex managed to keep his Sun up all game in his VGC match by Skill-swapping Drought to his Cresselia! DTC also Skill Swapped Spinda's Contrary onto Deoxys-A once for Psycho Boost that doubles its SpA for every use xD. It failed miserably, but it's certainly amazing what shit you can do with this move.

Roleplay is pretty cool in a similar vein, especially if it has better distribution. I think Skill Swap has more utility from what I've seen, though, since Skill Swap can swap abilities multiple times to re-activate Intimidate / weather / etc, but Roleplay can only be used once, and only benefits the user.