Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[Pwnemon]

THIS HAS BEEN MORE OR LESS ENDORSED BY POCKET SO READ IT!

Hey everyone who's into Smogon Doubles:

That's cool! We like people into Smogon Doubles! And there have been a lot of good posts in this thread!

But there have also been a lot of bad ones. I'd just like to take a little time-out right here to remind people what posting habits we do, and don't like. Posting is more relaxed when you have an entire subforum of threads, but remember people we're trying to discuss an entire meta in this one thread. We need to keep the posting quality high if it's going to be a good discussion. With that said, here's some things to keep in mind for the future:

What we do like in this thread:

If you're coming here to post with *tested* observations of the meta, that's great! If you have novel ideas for sets that you have tried and which work, we welcome your post. If you need team advice, we're perfectly fine dispensing it if you ask with the relevant details - that often sparks good discussion. Post here with any battle logs you have. Last, and maybe most important - if you have provoking questions that will cause good discussions and are not a yes/no answer, absolutely ask them here. In general, if you're coming here to post actually about Smogon Doubles, this is the thread for you.

What we don't like in this thread:

This thread is for posts about Smogon Doubles, not all the bookkeeping that comes with Smogon Doubles. If your post is directed at a single person, it should probably be taken to VM or IRC (join us here!). If your post is needlessly abrasive, please don't even say it. If you and another person have been having a back-and-forth debate for too long, consider letting them have the last word so the discussion can move along. If your post can't be added on to by any person in the thread, it's probably not that good a post!

examples of posts we do and don't like:

GOOD:

Good discussion sparking question!
The whole darkrai discussion was a finer point of the thread
Replays are welcome too, as are thoughts

BAD:

Theorymon can be ok, but in general, TEST your ideas before you post about them. And when you do, more flesh!
No posts directed at another person are necessary. They don't contribute anything to discussion.
This is fairly unexplored turf; it's expected that we have mechanics questions. It's perfectly all right to answer them in the thread, actually, where people will see them. But when you do, please try to add a little substance on to your post also, so it's not /just/ an sqsa topic
The entire ferrothorn debate was pretty horrific. This is an example of how not to have a good discussion about a Pokemon in this thread; contrast with Darkrai.

you'll notice that the first link in both the "good posts" and "bad posts" category is by the same user, VarunR. That's because everyone can be a good poster - and everyone can be a bad poster. Monitor your post quality! Another point I'd like to make is that it's not just about what you say, but about how you say it. Nyttyn and I had the same points about why we shouldn't allow DW abilities in this tier, but the difference in how we stated it was vast, and it really does make a difference.

one last note: even if your post quality is high, make sure you're not "threadhogging." User BlankZero has FIFTY-NINE posts in a thread with 325 total posts. That's somewhere between 1/5 and 1/6. If you catch yourself posting that much, chill the heck out, man! Let other people speak!


EDIT: oh whoops i got ninja'd by actual discussion, I feel like I should weigh in.

Skill swap is one of those interesting moves, that runs gimmicky-but-not-too-gimmicky, so it's really tempting to try it out. However, from what I've seen of it in battle, it needs to be used judiciously, not often. Remember, swapping abilities doesn't make you invincible or anything :P. In general I've found that to be the problem with Skill Swap - people seem to want to use it, above all things, to swap immunity abilities. In doubles, even the bulkiest of tanks can be taken out with neutral double-targetting; weaknesses aren't everything like they are in Singles. Skill swap is much better employed for other abilities - skill swapping a weather ability, or Intimidate, both sound interesting. I've always been underwhelmed by Skill Swap personally, though. I always try to gauge any move by the metric "would I be better off just smacking shit around with some high-powered STABs?" and Skill Swap sadly tends to fall short. I'm not saying it's useless though, as its success in Worlds has proved. Just keep in mind, you don't have all day for setup.

[youngjake93]

Lol @ Blank getting called out.. and I thought it was gonna be me haha

Anyway, I feel as if lower on the ladder is filled with gimmicks like Terracott, Skill Swap+Gigas, etc. Also, weather doesn't feel dominant AT ALL. I'd say that non-weather dominates with Trick Room being an extremely threatening pseudo-weather.

I think prankster paralysis and parahax in general is starting to catch on because it is really great. I think it's going to be centralizing/metagame defining eventually and I'd suggest people to run counters(L-rod, heal bell, etc).

I feel as if bulky waters and explosion are still underrated even though their usage has gone up some. Gigalith+ghost type can do damage to your team FAST if not prepared.

Gastrodon, Jellicent, Gyarados, Suicune, Manaphy, Milotic... heck I can't even finish listing all of the extremely useful bulky water types. I'd also go as far to say that running rain dance over drizzle is smart because these guys are A LOT more useful than Politoed(and you don't want to screw up your synergy).

I'd also like to mention that I think Togekiss is up there with the top guys. Hitmontop, Cresselia, Kingdra, Togekiss, Heatran, Reuniclus(TR teams), Gastrodon, Thundurus, Whimsicott completes the list of incredibly useful mons imo.

Also, I almost feel like Rain Dish Ludicolo outclasses Ferrothorn in doubles and is the best rain counter besides Gastrodon.

I'm sure Hail and Sun can be pretty threatening, but I almost never see them. The most useful mons aren't very threatened by weather strategies though except for the strangely uncommon Hurricane.

That's all I got for productive discussion after playing quite a bit.

[The Exeggutor]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Lol @ Blank getting called out.. and I thought it was gonna be me haha

Anyway, I feel as if lower on the ladder is filled with gimmicks like Terracott, .

Terrakion + whimsicott was a very common vgc strat, and not a gimmick in any way. If you have a pokemon to stop it it's not that scary but if you don't your team gets swept lol

[youngjake93]

Originally Posted by Fat The Exeggutor

Terrakion + whimsicott was a very common vgc strat, and not a gimmick in any way. If you have a pokemon to stop it it's not that scary but if you don't your team gets swept lol

Terracott perfectly fits the definition of gimmick, plus we already went over Terracott in the thread, plus there was just a post about this thread getting unproductive replies... Oh plus, this isn't VGC. It isn't even a viable gimmick in Smogon Doubles.
In singles, if you have a pokemon that stops bellydrum (insert Pokemon here) it's not that scary, but if you don't your team gets swept lol. They're both gimmicks. They have unreliable set ups and unreliable executions with a possibility of wow factor.
Try to make a productive post; people ignore 95% of it and shout TERRACOTT LEGIT BRO

[BlankZero]

I like being an example, good or bad. I'm not trying to threadhog though. It just gets too quiet in here. We seriously need our own board guys. I can get a Doubles Game faster than I can gt an NU or RU game.

I will always love Ferroboss because it's Ferroboss. There's nothing else to say about it.

But yes to improved discussions and less 1 liners about "OMG THIS THING ROCKS LOL HOW DOES THIS WORK?" Please start using the IRC client folks. I'm pretty much retarded when it comes to this crap and I got it figured out (with some help of course.)

Now, Skill Swap is a good thing, but Cresselia has such a case of 4MSS (so does Blissey really) and there are SO many more good options out there that Skill Swap usually falls short. Skill Swapping Levitate onto Heatran is amazing, but why not just kill the EQ user with something else you have.

Let's talk a bit about Follow Me/Rage Powder.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/follow_me

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/rage_powder

Description

All targeted moves used by the foe target the user, regardless of the intended target. This effect is only applicable in double, triple, and multi-battles. This does not affect moves which hit multiple Pokemon, or Pursuit if the intended target switches out. In triple battles, this move only affects moves from adjacent opponents, unless a non-adjacent opponent uses a move that can target non-adjacent Pokemon, such as Air Slash. This move has a priority of +3.

If a Pokemon with the ability Lightningrod and a Pokemon using Follow Me are out at the same time, and a Pokemon uses an Electric attack targeted at the Follow Me user's team, Follow Me will take precedence and absorb the attack. If a Pokemon with the ability Storm Drain and a Pokemon using Follow Me are out at the same time, and a Pokemon uses a Water attack targeted at the Follow Me user's team, Follow Me will take precedence and absorb the attack. Follow Me will take precedence and redirect attacks before Magic Coat or the ability Magic Bounce take effect.

If both enemies use Follow Me in the same round, moves will target whichever Pokemon used Follow Me second. Follow Me fails if not used in a double or triple battle.

Competitive Use

Follow Me is useless in singles. In doubles however, it is extremely useful for giving one Pokemon a free turn, where it cannot be targeted by any of the opposing side's attacks. This allows strategies such as Trick Room to be more easily employed, as well as possibly saving a sweeping teammate from an otherwise fatal attack. Common users of the move include Togekiss and Clefable, both of which sport fantastic bulk, as well as wide movepools.

Related Moves

Rage Powder is a Bug-type equivalent.

This move annoys me to hell and back, as it can really screw up some strategies, but it can truly be a boon if used correctly.

One of my (least) favorite users is Lucario. It's so unexpected, but it does so very well at absorbing moves.

Thoughts?

[The Exeggutor]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

I like being an example, good or bad. I'm not trying to threadhog though. It just gets too quiet in here. We seriously need our own board guys. I can get a Doubles Game faster than I can gt an NU or RU game.

I will always love Ferroboss because it's Ferroboss. There's nothing else to say about it.

But yes to improved discussions and less 1 liners about "OMG THIS THING ROCKS LOL HOW DOES THIS WORK?" Please start using the IRC client folks. I'm pretty much retarded when it comes to this crap and I got it figured out (with some help of course.)

Now, Skill Swap is a good thing, but Cresselia has such a case of 4MSS (so does Blissey really) and there are SO many more good options out there that Skill Swap usually falls short. Skill Swapping Levitate onto Heatran is amazing, but why not just kill the EQ user with something else you have.

Let's talk a bit about Follow Me/Rage Powder.

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/follow_me

http://www.smogon.com/bw/moves/rage_powder



This move annoys me to hell and back, as it can really screw up some strategies, but it can truly be a boon if used correctly.

One of my (least) favorite users is Lucario. It's so unexpected, but it does so very well at absorbing moves.

Thoughts?

the best to users are easily togekiss and amoongus, both with good stats on the defensive side and Amoongus having an extremely good defensive typing. One of my better teams uses Rage Powder Amoongus to absorb attacks well I set up trick room then shoot off a spore before it dies. Amoongus is easily one of the best pokemon in the doubles metagame, mostly thanks to this move alone,

[NidoJosh]

I haven't encountered many Rage Powder/Follow Me users at this stage actually.
To be honest I'm questioning the use of Lucario as a Follow Me user especially in a metagame where I see a lot of moves like Earthquake, Close Combat and generally powerful moves being thrown around. I think it could work on him.. but I'm sure he will be KO'd quite easily.. maybe even by the first shot thus allowing the slower of the opponent's 2 pokemon to hit the pokemon that he didn't want hit. Nonetheless.. I'd still like to see it in use!

And even Amoongus.. I have not seen this guy around at all. I know that it is rather popular in the VGC but I think a lot of people are currently making more offensive teams with Paralysis support. I'm not sure how Amoongus will fit in at the moment with this fast paced metagame..but I have not seen many fire moves being blasted anyway.. so maybe he could be effective I guess

[VarunR]

I haven't seen much of Rage Powder/Follow Me either, but when I have it's difficult to take down, especially when it is supporting Trick Room. Lucario not so much, but Togekiss can be annoying.

Talking about useful abilities, with Intimidate users on half of the teams that's there, Defiant is a great way to use it in your favour instead. Bisharp, although not among the elite, carves out a niche for himself with it, coupled with his extremely good attack stat and Sucker Punch priority, along with plenty of resistances and immunities (0.25x from Rock Slide and 0.5 to Icy Wind, immunity to Psyshock) and ability to counter TR teams. Metagross outclasses him (same role, better stats, Clear Body), but it doesn't have access to STAB Sucker Punch/Night Slash.

Bisharp has his great moment in this game.
http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8508167 (Yay Wide Guard!)

ETA: there aren't many niche users of Defiant though. Thundurus and Tornadus forms have it, but they're better off with their main abilities than Defiant. Rest are mediocre pokemon.

[NidoJosh]

Personally I am running a Metagross right now but I have been considering switching him out for a Bisharp. I see a lot of Landorus-T, Hitmontop and even the odd Qwilfish and I think there it appears that there are plenty of opportunities to get a boost for Bisharp. Although I'd imagine running a Bisharp would cause the opponent to be more cautious with their intimidate users. I can also see him being one of the better pokemon to check Cresselia, especially under a substitute where Cress can't touch him. Right now the only things stopping me from using Bisharp over Metagross is the fact that Metagross has naturally better stats and the STAB Bullet Punch has saved me so many times. I can really only see Bisharp being more effective if it does manage to get the Defiant boost

[PenguinX]

Follow Me Luke would actually be okay if stuff like Latios / Latias / Hydreigon / Salamence were more common, since its main niche as a FM user is its Dragon resistance. It was decent in VGC10 because it could tank some hits from Palkia / Giratina / Dialga / Abomasnow etc and let you just throw around big attacks with your own dragon as a result. I personally don't see many dragons or Abomasnow on ladder however, so idk if its really worth a teamslot.

I guess something like this could work though:

Salamence @ Dragon Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind / something
- Protect

Lucario @ Sitrus Berry / Chople Berry
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 HP / 188 SDef / 68 Spd
Careful Nature
- Follow Me
- Detect
- Low Kick / Drain Punch
- ExtremeSpeed / Helping Hand / Heal Pulse

Lucario can redirect loads of the attacks that are commonly used vs Salamence; Draco Meteor, Ice Shard, Ice Beam, Hidden Power [Ice], Thunder Wave from Thundurus-I, Fake Out etc. It also gets some cool other support moves like Helping Hand and Heal Pulse.

[VarunR]

Originally Posted by Fat NidoJosh

Personally I am running a Metagross right now but I have been considering switching him out for a Bisharp. I see a lot of Landorus-T, Hitmontop and even the odd Qwilfish and I think there it appears that there are plenty of opportunities to get a boost for Bisharp. Although I'd imagine running a Bisharp would cause the opponent to be more cautious with their intimidate users. I can also see him being one of the better pokemon to check Cresselia, especially under a substitute where Cress can't touch him. Right now the only things stopping me from using Bisharp over Metagross is the fact that Metagross has naturally better stats and the STAB Bullet Punch has saved me so many times. I can really only see Bisharp being more effective if it does manage to get the Defiant boost

Also Bisharp is more effective against Rain and Sun teams than Metagross. Bisharp does a great job of taking down Swift Swim/Chrolophyll/faster users at 1/3 health with STAB Sucker Punch, which is often neutral, contrary to Metagross whose BP is resisted by most rain and sun pokemon.

Recently replaced Helping Hand on my Cresselia with Moonlight, and now she just doesn't go down. I'm running 252HP, 252SpD with Light Screen, Thunder Wave, Psyshock and Moonlight, on a Sun-based team. She's not exactly broken though, it's just that people don't run Toxic/Taunt more. Murkrow is a nightmare for Cresselia, but I only saw one in my last fifteen games.

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8521112 (Thunder Wave all around, but Cresselia comes up on top.)

[Mymom234]

Originally Posted by Fat NixHex

Sorry bud, that strategy isn't going to work.

I used it earlier.....

Used on the wrong pokemon, but i used it....

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8467223

[MarshallLeRoy]

Originally Posted by Fat Solace

Pocket and I played a match, it was lots of fun!

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/do...tomgame6635191

Mew is definitely a tough competitor since it's hard to kill and has a great moveset.

I think my team still has a few things to be tweaked, since I'm not really sure I'm liking the whole rain component of it at all. If anyone wants to try it out as a base team, here's the importable:

...

---

Shaymin-Sky @ Occa Berry
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 160 Spd / 252 SAtk / 92 SDef / 4 HP
Timid Nature
- Air Slash
- Earth Power
- Seed Flare
- Protect

Politoed @ Choice Specs
Trait: Drizzle
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 0 Spd
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Kingdra @ Haban Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Muddy Water
- Protect

Mew @ Leftovers
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Calm Nature
- Light Screen
- Softboiled
- Psychic
- Helping Hand

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Yache Berry
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard
- Fake Out

Quoting an old post but I wanted to give Smogon Doubles a try, and used this team as the first one posted in the thread. And honestly it works great. Skymin just absolutely wrecks things, while Kingdra+Mew, and Landorus-T+Hitmontop are amazing partners.

Rain is definitely not the dominating threat that it is in singles OU, rather a nice complimentary tactic. Helping Hand boosted Muddy Waters from Kingdra in rain dent everything. The one thing I love about having weather is I constantly have to prepared for opposing teams, even without Politoed, to take advantage of it. Had a nervous moment where an opponent brought Tornadus-T into my drizzle opening and I had to act quickly to dispatch it.

Trick Room seems like a really powerful tactic to use, but it is incredibly predictable and a team immediately knows who to target. I find the best teams, and the hardest ones to defeat, have multiple strategies that simply don't rely on one field effect or gimmick, but have great team wide synergy to punch holes in team. Honestly, if any one Pokemon works amazing and provides something new with three or four other team members, then the team can be incredibly potent.

I honestly love this tier, and can't wait to have some time to build a proper and original team myself. Doubles has as much strategy as singles, but has a way faster pace. Hope this tier gets approved as official very soon.

[Pocket]

Rage Powder / Follow Me pretty much ensures Trick Room to go up without fail. It's also great when paired with a nuke like Kyurem-Black, who is not too vulnerable to spread moves. Mr.lol paired Kyurem-Black with Follow Me Togekiss, and it allowed Kyurem-Black to get that extra kill it would not have otherwise obtained.

Bisharp is one of the underrated mons like Musharna that makes a splash in Smogon Doubles because of how Defiant take advantages of Intimidate and double Intimidates that are thrown around here. Combine that with a strong powerful Sucker Punch, and it sure proves to be a nuisance to face.

PenguX, using Lucario as a support Follow Me user is creative ;d It's cool that Lucario can also dispatch STAB Blizzard and Rock Slide users for Salamence as well. I may even try setting up Dragon Dance with Salamence, since Draco Meteor would force Salamence out.

MarshellLeroy, I'm glad you're enjoying this metagame :) Solace's team is definitely solid. If I were to change anything, I would give Shaymin-Sky Yache Berry, since Fire moves are already halved in the Rain; it's nice to dampen the power of Ice Shard, Icy Wind, and random HP Ice. Lum Berry on Kingdra is good, too, since most Dragons can still kill through Haban anyways, and status protection always comes in handy. Alternatively, you can replace Politoed's HP Grass or Focus Blast for Surf and give Kingdra Absorb Bulb to receive 50% SpA boost from Toed's Surf.

Building a Doubles Team is quite similar to Singles. In fact I'd say that it's even more flexible than singles, because your Pokemon has another Partner to overcome offensive or defensive (via Follow Me, Wide Guard, etc) shortcomings. Always have offensive partners that can break through each other's counters, and make sure to have a Pokemon that can switch into moves to which your partner is weak.

[Audiosurfer]

For those who think that Doubles is just short battles, here's a 59 Turn Battle:Audiosurfer vs. Hapless Hero.
This sorta leads into the next point I'd like to make, which is that Suicune is a great mon in Doubles. I've been using CroCune to some success on my hail team recently, with it being able to wear down the opponent to open up holes for my Hail sweepers (this happened in a match with PenguinX which I unfortunately didn't save a replay for) and attempting sweeps of its own after a few CM boosts. Tailwind Suicune is another set I've used and had success with, as Tailwind support can be pretty valuable for outspeeding threats that could otherwise be really dangerous. It also has mono-Water typing, which is great offensively and defensively, and it has great bulk. All of these make a valuable and versatile Pokemon that can be really effective with proper support. Pressure can also be useful to stall out the many dangerous but low PP moves out there. So yeah. Try Suicune out people, you won't be disappointed.

[Skore]

I find Victini to be a great anti-trick room Pokemon. If you can get the V-Create in on the turn they use TR then they've just opened themselves wide open.

The TR users are usually quite bulky and don't have much offensive presence so if you use him to go after their partners to stop the sweep it can kill their strat right away.

[Jean mi]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

I find Victini to be a great anti-trick room Pokemon. If you can get the V-Create in on the turn they use TR then they've just opened themselves wide open.

The TR users are usually quite bulky and don't have much offensive presence so if you use him to go after their partners to stop the sweep it can kill their strat right away.

I use a trick room team myself and the thing that annoy me the most is taunt, fake out is also quite annoying even though it only works once. Encoring after a trick room reverts back to normal room.

Taunt and encore, particularly with prankster are excellent to face many set up strategies if you have difficulty with them.

[Skore]

I have other methods to deal with it on my team (including a TR user of my own to reverse it if needed) but depending on the match up, sometimes you want to let them get over confident and think they're about to execute their gameplan perfectly and then BAM - Fire gem boosted V-Create to the face and now Victini 'outspeeds' their sweepers under TR forcing them to target him to deal with the problem leaving my "slower" pokemon to get some damage in.

He won't work in every team but if some people are hurting for a mon on their team that can help deal with TR, he's a useful ace to have up your sleeve.

[Jean mi]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

I have other methods to deal with it on my team (including a TR user of my own to reverse it if needed) but depending on the match up, sometimes you want to let them get over confident and think they're about to execute their gameplan perfectly and then BAM - Fire gem boosted V-Create to the face and now Victini 'outspeeds' their sweepers under TR forcing them to target him to deal with the problem leaving my "slower" pokemon to get some damage in.

He won't work in every team but if some people are hurting for a mon on their team that can help deal with TR, he's a useful ace to have up your sleeve.

That's smart indeed. In doubles, I would rather use Victini to take advantage of its ability that also boosts its team mate accuracy. It may be useful for rock slide/heat wave or WoW or sleep powder. Anyone tried to abuse this ability ?

[NidoJosh]

Originally Posted by Fat Jean mi

That's smart indeed. In doubles, I would rather use Victini to take advantage of its ability that also boosts its team mate accuracy. It may be useful for rock slide/heat wave or WoW or sleep powder. Anyone tried to abuse this ability ?

While Victini's ability truly can be game changing by increasing move accuracy by 10%.. I just see Victini not having the longevity to last many turns especially with its weaknesses to common attacking types in the metagame, as well as a 2x weakness to 3 of the most common spread moves in the game being : Earthquake, Rock Slide and Surf. I think it would be quite hard to run Victini in this manner and would require too much work for the reward in my opinion.

[Pwnemon]

Victini is a good Pokemon in Doubles, I don't think anybody is denying that. However, he's good for smashing shit with base 180 sun-boosted V-Creates to kill everyone. Victory star is nice, sure, for ensuring that your Heat Waves and Rock Slides hit, but 10% is hardly something you can abuse. Lol what are you gonna say, "my hypnosis is 66% accurate now fear me!"

I think TR is an interesting topic though, that could use some pursuit. Jean Mi, if you're having trouble setting it up, maybe you should get a Follow Me/Rage Powder user? We just listed off all the good ones; they help with things like Taunt, Encore, and most importantly getting your shit smashed in by strong attacks.

As for how I tend to deal with trick room: Protect. It's not hard to stall it out, it's still only five turns still, and five turns isn't everything, even in doubles. With some well-timed protect uses, and bulky mons that can take a hit, you can often even break even on dishing damage with the TR user while TR is still up, and absolutely wreck them when it's down.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

Victini is a good Pokemon in Doubles, I don't think anybody is denying that. However, he's good for smashing shit with base 180 sun-boosted V-Creates to kill everyone. Victory star is nice, sure, for ensuring that your Heat Waves and Rock Slides hit, but 10% is hardly something you can abuse. Lol what are you gonna say, "my hypnosis is 66% accurate now fear me!"

"My Sleep Powder is now 82.5% accuracy." That's 2.5 less than Firs Blast now. Add Wide Lens to it now? Lilligant gets VERY scary with 90 base speed in the sun. Plus, you still have to worry about Vicinti and V-Create coming RIGHT after.

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

I think TR is an interesting topic though, that could use some pursuit. Jean Mi, if you're having trouble setting it up, maybe you should get a Follow Me/Rage Powder user? We just listed off all the good ones; they help with things like Taunt, Encore, and most importantly getting your shit smashed in by strong attacks.

Exactly this. Something like Blastoise (lol) is bulky as crap and gets it, as does something slow like Amoongus, who also gets to turn around and Spore the next turn at frightening speed.

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

As for how I tend to deal with trick room: Protect. It's not hard to stall it out, it's still only five turns still, and five turns isn't everything, even in doubles. With some well-timed protect uses, and bulky mons that can take a hit, you can often even break even on dishing damage with the TR user while TR is still up, and absolutely wreck them when it's down.

TR isn't hard to stall, but if you carry some slower, bulky mons (like Defensive Iron Ball Ninetales and Ferrothorn, for example) can take advantage of TR, even Thunderwaving the other team on the last 2 turns to really screw them up the next turn.

[nyttyn]

Drizzle is kind of obscenely good right now. http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8563360 Watch out for it.

Victory Star is a great ability for making everything run just that extra bit smoothly, imo, but it's not really a selling point of Victini. More like a perk you enjoy for using it.

V-create's absurd power is really hurt by the rain though, which knocks it down significantly. Might want to watch out for that.

[NidoJosh]

It's true that Drizzle is very useful in this metagame, allowing for the popular Drizzle + Swift Swim combo to work as well as other various abilities that abuse the rain... but I've been running Sandstorm (I strangely haven't encountered it much myself..) and it seems to be working great. Excadrill is an overall beast in the Sand is pretty much unstoppable. It has great coverage and is able to smash threats such as the Thundurus, Tornadus, Terrakion, Victini, Lati@s, Metagross, Heatran and plenty other threats. I usually only use Excadrill at the end of a battle, after my opponent has been weakened through my other pokemon and residual sandstorm damage and he can clean up.

I seriously have not seen anyone use this guy except for me ( I know others may use it but I haven't seen it!) - at this point of time and was just wondering why? I really only see Rain or Weatherless being used and I find it very strange because Sand is a huge threat with its own powerful sweepers and abusers.

[Pwnemon]

Originally Posted by Fat nyttyn

Victory Star is a great ability for making everything run just that extra bit smoothly, imo, but it's not really a selling point of Victini. More like a perk you enjoy for using it.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was getting at.

Originally Posted by Fat NidoJosh

It's true that Drizzle is very useful in this metagame, allowing for the popular Drizzle + Swift Swim combo to work as well as other various abilities that abuse the rain... but I've been running Sandstorm (I strangely haven't encountered it much myself..) and it seems to be working great. Excadrill is an overall beast in the Sand is pretty much unstoppable. It has great coverage and is able to smash threats such as the Thundurus, Tornadus, Terrakion, Victini, Lati@s, Metagross, Heatran and plenty other threats. I usually only use Excadrill at the end of a battle, after my opponent has been weakened through my other pokemon and residual sandstorm damage and he can clean up.

I seriously have not seen anyone use this guy except for me ( I know others may use it but I haven't seen it!) - at this point of time and was just wondering why? I really only see Rain or Weatherless being used and I find it very strange because Sand is a huge threat with its own powerful sweepers and abusers.

Sand is disgustingly mediocre in this metagame because it gets nothing. Unlike in OU, the passive damage afforded by the weather doesn't mean shit, and its only real abuser is Excadrill. Couple that with the fact that it's beaten by both Rain and Hail and it's no wonder that sand is the least popular weather.