Doubles (New Topic - EV benchmarks!)

[Sapphire Birch]

Just met someone on the ladder who said regenerator is useless in doubles.


People still have a long way to go.

[youngjake93]

Someone said they couldn't pick a good stealth rock user. I think bronzong is an excellent option. It can switch into dragon nukes, blizz spam, eq and rock slide and has plenty of bulk for neutral hits. I would put trick room on it whether you are running tr or not because you can reverse it back to normal that way. The last two slots can go to gyro ball, explosion, hp ice, 1 or both screens, etc.

[Ace Emerald]

My favorite Stealth Rocker by far Landorus-T. Intimidate, two spread moves, immunities to Earthquake and Discharge, really high Attack, and he isn't dirt slow; he's just a really good doubles Pokemon. I like to keep one SR user on the team, just in case, so I've been playing around with some other Pokemon because Lando doesn't fit on every team. Celebi is a fun Pokemon to use, and it gives both Rain and Sand a hard time. Only problem is it doesn't do that great against Sun, which is what you want to use SR against. Still, with ok base 100 Speed it can manage to through up SR sometimes.

[PenguinX]

The problem with Stealth Rock in this format isn't that its bad, its just difficult to find room in your team for it. There are 8 Pokemon that learn it in top 20 usage, but only 2/3 of them have room on the moveset for it and even then its taking the place of some other good moves.

• #7 Terrakion
  • Close Combat / Scared Sword + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, leaves one slot that you could use SR in, but when Terrakion is one of the few Pokemon that gets cool niche moves like Quick Guard and Safeguard, I'd probably rather run one of those anyway.
• #9 Tyranitar
  • Crunch + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, Stealth Rock isn't that bad here, but you find yourself completely unable to hit the omnipresent Fighting-types. I'd probably rather run Low Kick / Superpower so I'm not completely walled by stuff like Scrafty but Stealth Rock is definitely usable here.
• #10 Garchomp
  • Dragon Claw + Earthquake + Protect are staples, would much rather run Substitute or Rock Slide in the last slot here than Stealth Rock.
• #11 Metagross
  • Meteor Mash + Bullet Punch + Earthquake + Protect, no room for Stealth Rock and even if you had a chance to drop one of these moves, Zen Headbutt should be the move filling that space anyway.
• #13 Heatran
  • Heat Wave + Earth Power + Protect are staples, and that last slot is generally Substitute or another coverage move like Hidden Power [Ice]. Heatran really can't afford the moveslots imo, dropping Substitute means you lose out on a ton of utility and dropping Hidden Power [Ice] means you get hard walled by a ton of stuff. Without either of these moves I don't see what Heatran is really doing.
• #14 Ferrothorn
  • Leech Seed + Protect + Power Whip / Gyro Ball are staples, but Ferrothorn would really appreciate being the other STAB move, Substitute or Thunder Wave in that last slot rather than Stealth Rock. Definitely usable here but it has competition from a lot of other cool moves.
• #15 Landorus-T
  • Probably the best option for SR out of all of these. Earthquake + Rock Slide + Protect are staples and SR does fit in nicely in the last slot. You lose out on being able to use something like U-Turn, but running SR in slot 4 isn't nearly as bad for Lando as it is for most of the others here.
• #18 Excadrill
  • Earthquake + Rock Slide + Protect are staples, but Exca really needs that last slot. It has a bunch of really good options here, like Drill Run, Substitute, Magnet Rise and Swords and SR just isn't worth the space here most of the time.

Some of these can fore-go Protect, but then thats just opening up some exploitable holes for the sake of running Stealth Rock. I think SR is one of those moves that is definitely useful in a lot of situations, but you shouldn't be bending over backwards trying to find room for it as you would in singles.

[Neliel]

Is there a particular reason why detect is used over protect? i did some battles and i've seen it sometimes

[iRenzo]

Originally Posted by Fat Neliel Tu Oderschvank

Is there a particular reason why detect is used over protect? i did some battles and i've seen it sometimes

Imprison. All Imprison users learn protect but most don't learn Detect (Zoroark and Azelf being the excepts). Most Imprison users hit for nothing but Kyurem-B learns Imprison and their partner can also attack. Rule of thumb, if your pokemon learns detect, use it over protect.

[youngjake93]

I've noticed that Shuckle usage is starting to gain momentum. There are A LOT of interesting doubles strategies with Shuckle. The bulk helps in this metagame, the low speed helps for trick room and the trolly movepool is unpredictable at times.

Also, I just started trying out trick room... it is unstoppable.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat youngjake93

Also, I just started trying out trick room... it is unstoppable.

TR is certainly a good play style, but I don't know if I would call it unstoppable. In the context of the current ladder meta, it's probably the strongest archetype, but I would guess that's largely due to the singles players typically using teams with lots of fast frail Pokémon and inexperienced players in general not knowing how to deal with it.

[Pwnemon]

^ IF tr is unstoppable then im an eskimo

As to the Stealth Rock discussion, penguinx is absolutely right in his analysis. When i was using SR the pokemon was basically on my team "to set SR," and if anything else got done by that member it was bonus. I'd often have my leadape use SR while my toed surfed ffs (if there were no fake out users on the opponent's team of course). i'm sure that players will find a way to integrate SR into good sets so that you only need three other moveslots to be successful in the future, if it's as good as we're thinking it is.

Perhaps something like this?

Cradily @ Sitrus Berry/Expert Belt
Storm Drain
Sassy
(i'm bad at EVs, but probably something with HP/SpD)
0 Spe IV
-Stealth Rock
-Rock Slide
-Giga Drain
-Protect

Surprisingly useful two-move coverage that serves to more or less demolish a lot of common Rain Pokemon such as Gastro, Politoed, Skymin, Thundurus. SR is useful in beating out Sun and Hail teams, cradily's absurdly low speed is useful in combatting Trick Room, and it gets easy SpA boosts. This is more or less talking out of my ass, but in theory this could be a potent set.

[Corkscrew]

Originally Posted by Fat Pwnemon

Perhaps something like this?

Cradily @ Sitrus Berry/Expert Belt
Water Absorb
Sassy
(i'm bad at EVs, but probably something with HP/SpD)
0 Spe IV
-Stealth Rock
-Rock Slide
-Energy Ball
-Protect

Surprisingly useful two-move coverage that serves to more or less demolish a lot of common Rain Pokemon such as Gastro, Politoed, Skymin, Thundurus. SR is useful in beating out Sun and Hail teams, cradily's absurdly low speed is useful in combatting Trick Room, and it gets easy recovery if you use it on a rain team with surf abusers. This is more or less talking out of my ass, but in theory this could be a potent set.

Cradily gets Storm Drain, not Water Absorb. So you could gain Sp.Atk with surf abusers so it may be worth using AncientPower/HP Rock over Rockslide. But then again Rock Slide does hit 2 foes so it may be more useful especially when you don't have a boost in Sp.Atk. Also Giga Drain is legal with Storm Drain now thanks to the BW2 tutors now. It does get recover but with Stealth Rock it's difficult to fit into a moveslot. Cradily does seem like an underated pokemon to use to combat many rain pokemon though, a water immunity is a great thing to have in this meta, I find.

[Skore]

I'm loving Harvest Exeggutor right now on my TR team, full Sp. Attack and then investing in his bulk and practically nothing KO's that you can't work around with Protect/partner deals with.

Under sun it's extremely potent and very demoralising for your opponent to see the berry used, harvested and then used again.

Another replay from my TrickSun team: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9347756

I particularly liked my opponent's comments at the end.

[Birkal*]

Just went through and had to delete a bunch of posts. Let me make this clear: this is not the place to compare VGC with Smogon Doubles. This thread is specifically meant to introduce the idea of an unofficial doubles ladder and discuss strategies people find successful in the environment. It's not against the rules to say, "Oh hey, this strategy works really well in VGC, and I find that it's application in Smogon Doubles works." What is against the rules is comparing the two and bickering over which one is "better" or "more competitive". Take those discussions to IRC, or better yet, learn to live without them.

I've updated the original post of this thread to make this point clear. Please continue as you were~

[drcossack]

Originally Posted by Fat voodoo pimp

TR is certainly a good play style, but I don't know if I would call it unstoppable. In the context of the current ladder meta, it's probably the strongest archetype, but I would guess that's largely due to the singles players typically using teams with lots of fast frail Pokémon and inexperienced players in general not knowing how to deal with it.

That, pretty much. Chandelure (who easily murders Psychics not named Cresselia) and Cresselia are good for either reversing or Imprisoning it, if not setting it up yourself (like against a Rain team.) Uxie might be good, since it's got the fastest Imprison afaik (note: in my limited experience, it was not), but Cress does the anti-TR job better.

[HabibsHotDogs]

TR seems very overrated.

I am currently largely preferring helping hand and high power move combinations, It can be dangerous to double target or helping hand + target because of protect but its great at removing pokemon that often don't have protect/detect (cress, hitmontop).

For example leading with whimsicott can be so trollish as she is almost ALWAYS the target of any fake outs, but then you just helping hand your partner who can then go on to ohko the fake out user or their partner. (A note for those that didn't know, helping hand has priority higher than fake out)

For example Whimsi + Tornadus-I lead:

Whimsicott @ Focus Sash
252Def/252Spd
0HP IV
Timid/Jolly
-Endeavour
-Helping Hand
-Anything
-Anything

Tornadus-I @ Flight Gem
Jolly
Trait: Defiant
-Acrobatics
-Heatwave
-Protect
-Superpower/u-turn

With the helping hand boost Tornadus-I ohkoes almost the entire tier with acrobatics (that fails to resist it). If you get lucky and they go with an intimidate lead, then it is even ohkoing some Cresselia!

I am also enjoying support Breloom! It's great at dealing with bulky waters and rain/sand teams in general with its resistances to discharge, surf, earthquake and rock slide. If you EV it right, it can also take a few non sun boosted heatwaves here and there. It can absorb the odd non STAB ice beam but won't take Blizzards well at all but thats what Metagross excels against! Breloom also baits double targeting like no other so use that to your advantage!

Breloom @ Toxic Orb
Customised ev's
-Seed Bomb
-Helping Hand
-Spore
-Protect

[Corkscrew]

I have a question, sorry if it comes across as obvious... But why do people use imprison and trickroom to counter trickroom when using trickroom just reverses its effects? So why waste 2 slots for it when you could just use up one to reverse it?

[youngjake93]

Imprison also blocks up Protect and you would have to waste turns switching the Trick Room back. Also, they can play around you switching Trick Room back with prediction. Also, a fast Imprison makes them waste a turn completely with a failed Trick Room+probable Protect on the other Pokemon. Also, it stops them from even getting a single turn to abuse it.
But you're right, that is asking for quite a lot of moveslots. Cresselia/Chandelure can pull it off with Leftovers+Helping Hand/Heat Wave.

[voodoo pimp]

The main advantage of Imprison is that its effect is permanent as long as that Pokémon stays in play, whereas reversing it only lasts for one turn. And as youngjake mentioned, reversing it gives them a free turn to abuse it, unless you try to change it on the same turn which has its own problems, such as what happened to me in one match in the recent Wi-Fi tournament - I was using a TR team, they led with Bronzong, I expected it to try to reverse my TR based on past experience with Bronzong, so I *didn't* use TR and they set it up for me (then they DC'd, but that's not a problem on Showdown).

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

I am curious what you guys think about one of my favorite Pokemon in this metagame:

Hydreigon (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Protect

Overall I prefer Hydreigon over Latios for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is overall a much stronger attacker since it can use a Modest Nature. Hydreigon is particularly devastating on Sun, since it gives Flamethrower a Pseudo-STAB. I have never encountered a situation where I really missed the speed, since there are so many way to make yourself faster than the opponent (Tailwind, Thunder Wave, and Icy Wind particularly). Secondly, that Dark-STAB is incredibly helpful against Creeselia. Considering it holds the #2 spot in the metagame right now, Hydreigon doesn't miss out on actually using its Dark-STAB. It is also helpful against Trick Room, since most Trick Room users are weak to Dark.

[sandman]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I am curious what you guys think about one of my favorite Pokemon in this metagame:

Hydreigon (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Protect

Overall I prefer Hydreigon over Latios for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is overall a much stronger attacker since it can use a Modest Nature. Hydreigon is particularly devastating on Sun, since it gives Flamethrower a Pseudo-STAB. I have never encountered a situation where I really missed the speed, since there are so many way to make yourself faster than the opponent (Tailwind, Thunder Wave, and Icy Wind particularly). Secondly, that Dark-STAB is incredibly helpful against Creeselia. Considering it holds the #2 spot in the metagame right now, Hydreigon doesn't miss out on actually using its Dark-STAB. It is also helpful against Trick Room, since most Trick Room users are weak to Dark.

One of if not the best dragons in VGC 12. Don't see any initial reasons why it still wouldn't be although time will tell what effect the 6 member party and lack of item clause will have on this meta. Dark stab and it synergizes well with two of the best pokemon in vgc cress and metagross.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat sandman

One of if not the best dragons in VGC 12. Don't see any initial reasons why it still wouldn't be although time will tell what effect the 6 member party and lack of item clause will have on this meta. Dark stab and it synergizes well with two of the best pokemon in vgc cress and metagross.

You could pair it off with Scizor or Mamoswine, depending on if you're trying to hit Chomp or Lati@s too I think, who are faster and can really stop Hydregion.

[Darkmalice]

Originally Posted by Fat Skore

I'm loving Harvest Exeggutor right now on my TR team, full Sp. Attack and then investing in his bulk and practically nothing KO's that you can't work around with Protect/partner deals with.

Under sun it's extremely potent and very demoralising for your opponent to see the berry used, harvested and then used again.

Another replay from my TrickSun team: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles9347756

I particularly liked my opponent's comments at the end.

Harvest Exeggutor can be very deadly under the right hands. Wolfe used it in his World's team last year, and he earned 2nd place. He said it was his MVP.

I'd recommend specially defensive Exeggutor over max SpA Exeggutor though. It will make it that much harder to KO. I recommend 252 HP / 36 SpA / 220 SpD +SpD nature so Exeggutor cannot be OHKOed by Timid Latios' Dragon Gem Draco Meteor. It also enables more perks like surviving Thundurus-I's Flying Gem Hidden Power Flying, and only taking 43.65 - 51.77% from Modest Max SpA Politoed's Ice Beam. Given how well it takes non-STAB Ice Beams, it becomes a monster against rain teams. The bulk warrants the SpA drop, and it still has a 87.5% chance to OHKO 252 / 4 SpD Politoed with Leaf Storm, 93.75% if it doesn't have 4 SpD.

Power Trick is also interesting on Harvest Exeggutor. After Leaf Storm, give your -2 SpA to a foe, restoring your SpA and making Exeggutor even harder to take down. Also useful for stealing boosts from Pokemon who try to set up on Exeggutor and, if being hit by Intimidate, giving that -1 Atk to the opposing Intimidator (be careful that you don't take Hitmontop's Close Combat defensive drops though). You should try it some time if you find you don't need TR.

Here's a replay of specially defensive Harvest Exeggutor causing havoc against a rain team. Note, I actually find it better against rain teams than Gastrodon, as few Pokemon on a rain team can reliably take it down (Hurricane Dragonite is the only common Pokemon I see on rain teams that can do so). http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/repla...doubles8972353

[The Reptile]

Originally Posted by Fat ThePillsburyDoughBoy

I am curious what you guys think about one of my favorite Pokemon in this metagame:

Hydreigon (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Draco Meteor
- Protect

Overall I prefer Hydreigon over Latios for a couple of reasons. The first is that it is overall a much stronger attacker since it can use a Modest Nature. Hydreigon is particularly devastating on Sun, since it gives Flamethrower a Pseudo-STAB. I have never encountered a situation where I really missed the speed, since there are so many way to make yourself faster than the opponent (Tailwind, Thunder Wave, and Icy Wind particularly). Secondly, that Dark-STAB is incredibly helpful against Creeselia. Considering it holds the #2 spot in the metagame right now, Hydreigon doesn't miss out on actually using its Dark-STAB. It is also helpful against Trick Room, since most Trick Room users are weak to Dark.

Another thing that Hydreigon has over Lati@s is that it has access to Taunt, which is great vs TR teams. It makes for an interesting mix of Darkrai and Lati@s. It has similar bulk to Darkrai (although it has noticeably more HP than Darkrai), but it is much slower than both (98 is nothing compared to 125 and 110). Again, Speed isn't that big of a deal in Doubles due to the many ways to lower opponent speed / increase your own speed, but it's still something to note. A physical set also looks viable, as it has both Earthquake and Rock Slide for spread moves and Dragon Claw / Outrage / Crunch for STAB. Notably Earthquake could be used on a mixed set.
He could also be rather powerful with a Choice Scarf

[Skore]

Originally Posted by Fat Darkmalice

Harvest Exeggutor can be very deadly under the right hands.

Thanks for the tip and the replay, loved watching it take those Ice Beams like a boss. My current Exeggutor setup is:

Exeggutor @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Harvest
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 Def
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- SolarBeam
- Psychic
- Protect
- Trick Room

Solarbeam as it's on my sun team and as half the teams I play against are prone to leaving their weather starter vulnerable I get to use it more than I should and it doesn't have Leaf Storms drawback.

I'll have to try specially defensive though, after watching the replay I can see the benefits.

[JulioMD]

I have been tinkering with a Sun team a bit. It seems rather standard and I think the only remarkable thing I have is using Sableye for Gravity support to be able to spam Will-O-Wisp and have a sure-hit Sleep Power. But from what I've played the team overall hasn't been able to pull it's weight, more specifically Hariyama and Heatran and sometimes Cresselia, although that's probably me not being able to use it's set properly.

I really like the Sableye/Ninetales/Venusaur thing I have going, and it has worked pretty well so far, but the other half of the team is so-so and I'd appreciate some advice on how to change my team for the better. I was thinking on trying at least one more Gravity user and more Pokemon with moves that mix well with it to be able to abuse it fully but I haven't gone too deep into it.

...

---

Ninetales (F) @ Iron Ball Trait: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 124 Def / 132 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Heat Wave
- Will-O-Wisp
- Energy Ball
- Protect


Hariyama (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Guts
EVs: 216 Atk / 100 Def / 100 SDef / 92 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Cross Chop
- Fake Out
- Rock Slide
- Wide Guard


Sableye (M) @ Lagging Tail
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Gravity
- Taunt


Venusaur (F) @ Life Orb
Trait: Chlorophyll
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder
- Protect


Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Psyshock
- Icy Wind
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind


Heatran (M) @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Heat Wave
- Earth Power
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

[Audiosurfer]

Ok, I'll leave the 3 mon core you have intact since you said that you've had success with it. Anyways, here are some changes I'm proposing:

Not sure what purpose Lagging Tail on Sableye serves without Trick, but unless there's a real reason for it you should use Mental Herb instead, seeing as with your current moveset you're complete Taunt bait and are forced to switch against anything else with priority Taunt. Mental Herb prevents you from being shut down by Taunt so you can still get off a Gravity/Sunny Day when you need to.
Currently, Dragons are a big problem for your team as the only thing you have to hit them super-effectively is Icy Wind from Cresselia, and they resist the vast majority of moves found on the team (Heatran and Venusaur can't scratch Dragons at all outside of Sleep Powder from Venusaur, and Ninetales and Sableye only accomplish it through W-o-W). Thus, I think you should take out Stealth Rock on Heatran for Hidden Power [ICE]. Since Heatran already is able to take Dragon type hits, now it can hit them back for super-effective damage, which takes the pressure off of Cresselia to do so. Also, give Heatran 4 HP EVs since you're missing 4 EVs from your spread.
Hariyama doesn't seem to be doing much for your team, so instead I'd like to suggest Hitmontop. It will do much of the same thing except it's noticably faster, has a priority move in Sucker Punch to pick off fast threats and Intimidate to help cushion your mons against physical attackers even further, which can be helpful when you don't want to have to use a W-o-W. It also helps even further against Dragons since it neuters the attacking power of the physical dragons and can hit the main special dragons super-effectively between its two moves.
Set:

...

---

Hitmontop @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Wide Guard

Good luck, and hope I helped.