Doubles (New Topic - EV benchmarks!)

[BlankZero]

Finally got Pwne in a match. GG bud.

Blank Vs. Pwne

[Audiosurfer]

Me vs. Typon77
Me vs. Reachzero

Loving Rotom-W on my sand team right now. Helps stop so many things. Water type attacks are always useful, and being a check to Rain/Sun teams as well as dodging Earthquakes and checking a good amount of Sand sweepers is pretty great too. Also, plenty of things that would switch in to take a Hydro Pump/Thunderbolt get crippled by a Thunder Wave, so it can still help in the match outside of dealing damage. Was using Discharge, but it was pretty weak, and hitting my own Pokemon usually limited my offensive options too much, so I've switched to Thunderbolt and it's been pretty great. Also, I've been having some trouble with Rain teams (lookin at you Pwnemon) so I'm testing Amoonguss right now since Skymin has like 0 bulk so it can't really defend against rain.
Speaking of Skymin, I don't really like it much. It's always died before it had any impact on the match due to its fraility, and it doesn't hit hard enough to compensate imo, since it usually doesn't OHKO things not weak to its attacks before it'll immediately get KOed in return (maybe it's because I'm not using LO but even when I face it it's not having much of an impact). The few times it's not KOed are usually because it's been hit with status, which makes it alot worse as well. So yeah. I've just been going max speed and special attack w/ Timid and a Yache Berry, but honestly with how frail it is I think I'll just go LO when I use it. If any of you have had more success w/ another set I'd love to hear about it, but in general it's pretty underwhelming for me.

[Pwnemon]

after a streak of bad matches (in which i unfortunately managed to play like a tool and get steamrolled) i finally got a really good one vs Voodoo Pimp

so much interesting strategy in this battle, i think it really showcases a little bit of everything good about this meta.

FUK SINGLES

[Pocket]

Wow, GGs, guys! I'm glad we moved past the "flinchhax team w/ Dunsparce" and other gimmicks and are actually discovering some legit impressive threats in this playstyle! All these teams are really shaping out to be formidable, so kudos to all you inquisitive minds who have crafted them!

There's quite a few unexpected surprises that you guys have uncovered. Stealth Rock is actually legit in Doubles, reducing the active time of significant threats like Kyurem-B, Ninetales, and Zapdos. Magic Coat or lol Rapid Spin may have practical use for some of these teams!

The second surprise are that people would actually risk losing control of target-selecting and opt for Outrage's raw power. I initially thought that Outrage's negative effects would backfire to the user, but it seems like Protect's cancellation of Outrage's lock makes this move not as inflexible and detrimental as I expected.

Major props to Pwnemon, I think the first person to really tap into Kyurem-B's potential in this metagame and is now finding ways to even use Celebi! Pretty creative of you to assign Celebi a utility role in setting up Rocks and summoning rain ;d

Audiosurfer, it seems like typon77 and reachzero were like giving free kills against your Rotom-W x.x;; Skymin is actually quite-effective, hitting most weather abusers for lethal damage with its powerful Seed Flare. It's fast and high Air Slash flinch rate can also act like a shitty but stronger Fake Out, incapacitating one enemy while your other partner wade in on either of the two enemies. Chlorophyll / Sand Rush / Swift Swim users make Shaymin-S not the fastest mon in every moment of the game, but Icy Wind / Tailwind / TWave support can alleviate that.

[Level 51]

Good news: a Smogon Doubles format will be implemented on the server after the next restart. From what I've heard, there's probably also going to be a ladder! This means we should be able to start our ladder challenges :o

[Pocket]

FUCK YES LADDER TIME ZAREL ILY <3

[OVERGRO]

Congrats guys!! I have yet to actually come up with a team or strategy, but once I find the time, I really look forward to playing in this metagame. So far, I've been reading and thinking and really enjoying watching the battles in this thread.

Once again, congrats!

[chuavechito]

This is the only reason I believe VGC is currently supperior:

Sky Drop, Deoxys, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, Jirachi, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Genesect, Kyurem-Black, Manaphy, Kyurem.

[NixHex]

This is good news. Thanks Zarel!

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat chuavechito

This is the only reason I believe VGC is currently supperior:

Sky Drop, Deoxys, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, Jirachi, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Genesect, Kyurem-Black, Manaphy, Kyurem.

Care to elaborate? That's a good chunk of what separates it from VGC in the first place.

[AuraRayquaza]

I was testing gravity + trick room in the metagame to see how effective it was. I chucked together a few pokemon like Darkrai because I wanted to see hypnosis' effect and if it was any good under gravity. I also tried specs gyarados because of its accessibility to the 4 main inaccurate but powerful moves (fire blast, thunder, hydro pump, blizzard) . I also thought that Earthquake would have a good effect because it can hit everyone on the opposing team with gravity. so I chucked in rhyperior because it has great offensive and defensive synergy with gyarados. finally I put in dusclops and musharna as trick room/gravity pokes. Musharna has telepathy so it works very well with earthquake. Hitmontop was put in as glue and fake out + intimidate support.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7562471

This is a battle with nixhex. He is using generic sand which gives my darkrai problems as it can beak the focus sash (just testing out items, but focus sash is not that effective in a metagame ridden with sand + hail). Musharna's and dusclops' bulk prove to be superior as I am able to set up trick room and gravity twice in the game, allowing gyarados to do some major damage to nixhex's sand setters and cresselia. Darkrai did not have as much impact as I thought it would, because hypnosis only hits one poke at a time and nixhex just seemed to be predicting the hell out of darkrai. Hitmontop comes in to finish off the battle, taking out excadrill; nixhex's only chance of a win. The game ends in a 2-0, a very good, non-haxy, and fun game.

Here is the team I used.

...

---

Darkrai @ Focus Sash
Trait: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Protect
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast

Dusclops @ Eviolite
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 196 SDef / 252 HP / 60 Def
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Gravity
- Will-O-Wisp
- Ice Beam

Musharna @ Sitrus Berry
Trait: Telepathy
EVs: 8 SAtk / 252 HP / 76 SDef / 172 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Trick Room
- Helping Hand
- Psychic
- Gravity

Rhyperior @ Ground Gem
Trait: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Earthquake
- Megahorn
- Rock Slide
- Protect

Hitmontop (M) @ Fighting Gem
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Brave Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Wide Guard
- Sucker Punch

Gyarados @ Choice Specs
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Thunder
- Fire Blast
- Blizzard

I have literally just thrown this team together in about 10 mins so I know there will be some flaws and some evs spreads that are not very good. Darkrai was used to get some very accurate hypnosis going around, but if forgot that I could only put one poke to sleep in a game. Musharna and dusclops provide trick room + gravity support which really helped my team in battle. Dusclops has got ice beam just to hit dragons harder, and dusclops has a crap offensive movepool. rhyperior is there to spam really powerful earthquakes on everyone under trick room. it has good synergy with musharna, who can HH rhyperior and takes no damage from EQ because of telepathy. rock slide and megahorn also have perfect accuracy under gravity. specs gyarados can spam some very powerful attacks with 100% accuracy under gravity. as shown in the battle, hydro pump nearly OHKOed Ttar in sand and would have OHKOed hippowdon without passho berry. specs gyarados needs more love man... hitmontop is a standard set from vgc, but can work well in lv100 doubles, with fake out to help trick room/gravity go up, and because of intimidate support. fighting gem close combat also hurts a lot of pokes. it OHKOed a chople berry excadrill.

so yeah. here are my findings. any improvements for the team/good gravity abusers would be great as well!

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat chuavechito

This is the only reason I believe VGC is currently supperior:

Sky Drop, Deoxys, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-A, Jirachi, Shaymin-S, Darkrai, Genesect, Kyurem-Black, Manaphy, Kyurem.

Wait, we can use Genesect?

[The Exeggutor]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7566808

my first battle within this metagame using one of my old vgc teams, Showing the power of how well a trickroom team can work

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

Finally got Pwne in a match. GG bud.

Blank Vs. Pwne

Why did you use Sneaky Stones? They're not as useful in doubles, last time I checked.

[Adam Lambert]

Okay, so I made a team for this new tier and encountered a couple of problems on the sim. According to Pokemon Showdown!, the move Sky Drop is banned and Moody Clause is in effect. However...

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

For most of us who are Singles player, there's a few more differences in the banlist:

1) No Aldaron Proposal (Swift Swim + Drizzle ban)
2) No Moody Clause
3) Dark Void Ban
4) Following Pokemon are also OU:

• Blaziken
• Excadrill
• Thundurus

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Sky Drop - We will unban Sky Drop, which is a move that's banned in VGC, due to its great promising application. Sky Drop's potential utility comes from the fact that it prevents a pokemon from attacking, while shielding the pokemon that is using it from attacks that turn, allowing your other target to attack the enemy, and potentially make the other opponent fail to do anything because they targeted the mon that used Sky Drop. Note that Sky Drop will be illegal with Gravity.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat IstheCakeReallyaLie

Why did you use Sneaky Stones? They're not as useful in doubles, last time I checked.

In VGC, the matches are far too fast-paced to run SR, as no one really switches out or anything.

However, in 6v6 Standard Doubles, a LOT of switching can occur, from Weather Wars, to Volt-Turning (which is a totally viable strategy here too, as Pwne discovered), to just eliminating bad matchups. After all, Protect-Stalling only works so often.

Therefore, I try to set up Rocks if I see a couple mons I feel I'll either have issues with later, or weak to it, especially if the Genies are out, or even Volcarona, who stomps on a lot of teams, especially with limited Rocks users and a powerful spread move available.

Now, SR isn't nearly as powerful here as it is in Singles, where you HAVE to switch a bunch, which is why I don't use Spikes, but SR can help break Sashes (which are super common actually) and Sturdy, as well as turn 2/3HKOs into 1/2HKOs on the regular against several opponents.

YMMV, but I feel SR has a place in 6v6, just like Spread moves, wide guard, helping hand, and Protect.

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

In VGC, the matches are far too fast-paced to run SR, as no one really switches out or anything.

However, in 6v6 Standard Doubles, a LOT of switching can occur, from Weather Wars, to Volt-Turning (which is a totally viable strategy here too, as Pwne discovered), to just eliminating bad matchups. After all, Protect-Stalling only works so often.

Therefore, I try to set up Rocks if I see a couple mons I feel I'll either have issues with later, or weak to it, especially if the Genies are out, or even Volcarona, who stomps on a lot of teams, especially with limited Rocks users and a powerful spread move available.

Now, SR isn't nearly as powerful here as it is in Singles, where you HAVE to switch a bunch, which is why I don't use Spikes, but SR can help break Sashes (which are super common actually) and Sturdy, as well as turn 2/3HKOs into 1/2HKOs on the regular against several opponents.

YMMV, but I feel SR has a place in 6v6, just like Spread moves, wide guard, helping hand, and Protect.

I guess. It certainly is more useful than VGC.

[The Exeggutor]

Originally Posted by Fat BlankZero

In VGC, the matches are far too fast-paced to run SR, as no one really switches out or anything.

Lots of switching can occur in vgc, i've had matches that i've had to switch 8+ times

[IstheCakeReallyaLie]

Originally Posted by Fat The Exeggutor

Lots of switching can occur in vgc, i've had matches that i've had to switch 8+ times

8 isn't enough for Tiptoeing Tectonics to be take a turn to set up.

[Zarel*]

Originally Posted by Fat Adam Lambert

Okay, so I made a team for this new tier and encountered a couple of problems on the sim. According to Pokemon Showdown!, the move Sky Drop is banned and Moody Clause is in effect. However...

Moody Clause is a bug, it will be fixed.

As for Sky Drop, I talked it over with the tier leaders and we agreed that banning Sky Drop + Gravity was infeasible (what if one player uses Gravity and the other player uses Sky Drop?) so right now it's just a flat Sky Drop ban.

[Pocket]

Glad to see everybody is hyped as much as I am ;D TYTYTY again, Zarel, for getting the ladder up so quickly! I've already watched handful of ladder games already, and it makes me happy :3

I will most certainly discuss with the staff about some ladder challenges in the very near future, so keep your eyes open!

AuraRayquaza - Darkrai is surprisingly bulky, so I'd try Chople Berry instead of Focus Sash if you want to survive hits that Darkrai can't take. Also don't use Specs Gyarados - if anything try out Keldeo or Manaphy!

I have mixed feelings about Gravity. Gravity works both ways, and so although now Hypnosis becomes a reliable sleep-inducing move, you will find the opponent also taking advantage of gravity for their Hydro Pump or EQ to connect with your mons :s

In Doubles you can afford to have a Pokemon or maybe even two without attacking moves, as long as you pair it with a powerful nuke. For instance, my Dusknoir has no moves - I simply pack it with 4 Support moves to facilitate Heatran's mighty Eruption / Heat Wave sweep. Your Dusclops, too, can possibly use moves like Disable, Taunt, or Helping Hand, instead of weak beam to better support your teammates.

[Adam Lambert]

Originally Posted by Fat Zarel

Moody Clause is a bug, it will be fixed.

As for Sky Drop, I talked it over with the tier leaders and we agreed that banning Sky Drop + Gravity was infeasible (what if one player uses Gravity and the other player uses Sky Drop?) so right now it's just a flat Sky Drop ban.

Ahhhh okay. Thanks. :)

[The Exeggutor]

Another thing you rain users might like to try is Absorb Bulb Ludicolo, When hit by a water move from the partner of choice, (politoed), Ludicolos special attack will go up +1 and it will deal large amounts of damage with a rain boosted stab surf. well also having fakout, turn one you're almost guaranteed to be able to get a surf off from politoed to activate it

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat The Exeggutor

Lots of switching can occur in vgc, i've had matches that i've had to switch 8+ times

"Can" being the key word there. Does it happen often enough for SR to be worth it? Not in my experience, at least. 6v6 doubles seems to have a lot more switching on average (not to mention there's more Pokémon to hit), so it's more likely to be worth the turn you spend on it.

[Diana]

If you're using Tailwind, try out Mamoswine. It really loves the extra Speed from Tailwind (342 Speed after a boost with Adamant, sadly just missing out on +Speed Terrakion but it can outspeed Jirachi and Ninetales which is awesome), while its Earthquake pairs insanely well with common Tailwind users that are immune to it. Ice Shard is a really good move in the meta too as a lot of things are weak to it and can be picked off if needed, and Mamoswine itself resists Ice thanks to Thick Fat. I've been trying it over Jirachi on my team and have not been disappointed.