Doubles (3rd Topic in #899!)

[Joim]

I too think that the best way to build a team is find 3 couples that work perfectly together and also can work with the other couples given the need.

Excadrill is really lackluster and I have problems fighting Shaymin-S, he's a monster since he can OHKO all my Ice Beam users easily and dispatch my rock slide users fastly too.

[Level 51]

Originally Posted by Fat Joim

I too think that the best way to build a team is find 3 couples that work perfectly together and also can work with the other couples given the need.

I think the problem here is that such a system of couples will be really, really difficult to find.

Originally Posted by Fat Joim

Excadrill is really lackluster and I have problems fighting Shaymin-S, he's a monster since he can OHKO all my Ice Beam users easily and dispatch my rock slide users fastly too.

Excadrill is pretty funny because it gets really fast MAGNET RISE in Sand, taking away one of its main weaknesses (believe me, I should know x_x). Skymin should in theory fall to a combination of a scarfed Pokemon and a damaging weather of your choice to break a sash (which, coincidentally, is one of Hail's main draws in Smogon Doubles.)

I really hate long posts but I'm also going to take this opportunity to post about Mr. Mime. While 40/65/120 defenses might indicate that it's not the best support Pokemon you can choose from, It does get some very good support moves, most notably Fake Out, Light Screen, Reflect, Follow Me, Teeter Dance, and my favorite, SKILL SWAP. Before I go on to talk about Skill Swap's efficacy, I'd like to highlight Mr. Mime's neat Speed stat of 90. While this leaves it outsped by numerous threats, it also allows Mr. Mime to outspeed Rotom-A, Togekiss, Cloyster, Dragonite, Jellicent, Heatran and even unboosted Blaziken. You'll notice that all of these Pokemon have excellent abilities, and in most of these cases, are usually employed under a strategy causing their abilities to be essential; this is where Skill Swap comes in.

Fighting a Rotom-A? No problem, Skill Swap away its Levitate and watch as your partner Pokemon Earthquakes it into oblivion. Up against a Heatran ? Steal Flash Fire and watch your opponent ragequit. Don't even get me started on Gastrodon and Jellicent :). What's even funnier is that you can then pass these abilities on to your partner, which can cover up some vital weaknesses (I've given Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Flash Fire to my Mamoswine before). Besides this, your opponent's use of spread moves is also greatly hindered.

In Mr. Mime's case, you get the added bonus of being able to pass Technician on to your ally, such as Mamoswine (Icicle Spear, Ice Shard), Marowak (Bonemerang), or even Kyurem-B (Dual Chop)! Finally, I'll end off this (somewhat) tl;dr post with my personal Mr. Mime set:

Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Skill Swap
- Light Screen
- Fake Out
- Teeter Dance

[Darkmalice]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

I think the problem here is that such a system of couples will be really, really difficult to find.

Excadrill is pretty funny because it gets really fast MAGNET RISE in Sand, taking away one of its main weaknesses (believe me, I should know x_x). Skymin should in theory fall to a combination of a scarfed Pokemon and a damaging weather of your choice to break a sash (which, coincidentally, is one of Hail's main draws in Smogon Doubles.)

I really hate long posts but I'm also going to take this opportunity to post about Mr. Mime. While 40/65/120 defenses might indicate that it's not the best support Pokemon you can choose from, It does get some very good support moves, most notably Fake Out, Light Screen, Reflect, Follow Me, Teeter Dance, and my favorite, SKILL SWAP. Before I go on to talk about Skill Swap's efficacy, I'd like to highlight Mr. Mime's neat Speed stat of 90. While this leaves it outsped by numerous threats, it also allows Mr. Mime to outspeed Rotom-A, Togekiss, Cloyster, Dragonite, Jellicent, Heatran and even unboosted Blaziken. You'll notice that all of these Pokemon have excellent abilities, and in most of these cases, are usually employed under a strategy causing their abilities to be essential; this is where Skill Swap comes in.

Fighting a Rotom-A? No problem, Skill Swap away its Levitate and watch as your partner Pokemon Earthquakes it into oblivion. Up against a Heatran ? Steal Flash Fire and watch your opponent ragequit. Don't even get me started on Gastrodon and Jellicent :). What's even funnier is that you can then pass these abilities on to your partner, which can cover up some vital weaknesses (I've given Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Flash Fire to my Mamoswine before). Besides this, your opponent's use of spread moves is also greatly hindered.

In Mr. Mime's case, you get the added bonus of being able to pass Technician on to your ally, such as Mamoswine (Icicle Spear, Ice Shard), Marowak (Bonemerang), or even Kyurem-B (Dual Chop)! Finally, I'll end off this (somewhat) tl;dr post with my personal Mr. Mime set:

Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Skill Swap
- Light Screen
- Fake Out
- Teeter Dance

Skill Swap is unrated in Doubles. Wolfe made runner-up in VGC Worlds this year using Skill Swap Cresselia. In addition to all the uses you described with it, he could use it with his Heatran to give it Levitate to patch up its most crippling weakness, and with his Hitmontop to reset Intimidate, giving a -1 Atk to both your opponents. And if Cress has Intimidate and swaps it with a second Pokemon of yours with Intimidate, then you reset two Intimidates, which can cripple a team reliant on physical attacking.

With your Mr. Mime set, have you considered Mew in its place? It has better stats all round the board except for equal SpA and worse SpD, which is offset by Mime's horrible HP, and Mew is much more unpredictable. Granted though, Mew can't learn Teeter Dance, but it can use Swagger instead + many more moves. Swagger also has the advantage of pairing well with any physical attacker holding a Lum Berry or Persim Berry.

Also, you should either hold a Mental Herb instead of Leftovers or replace one of your moves with STAB. Otherwise, you become complete Taunt bait.

[OVERGRO]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

I really hate long posts but I'm also going to take this opportunity to post about Mr. Mime. While 40/65/120 defenses might indicate that it's not the best support Pokemon you can choose from, It does get some very good support moves, most notably Fake Out, Light Screen, Reflect, Follow Me, Teeter Dance, and my favorite, SKILL SWAP. Before I go on to talk about Skill Swap's efficacy, I'd like to highlight Mr. Mime's neat Speed stat of 90. While this leaves it outsped by numerous threats, it also allows Mr. Mime to outspeed Rotom-A, Togekiss, Cloyster, Dragonite, Jellicent, Heatran and even unboosted Blaziken. You'll notice that all of these Pokemon have excellent abilities, and in most of these cases, are usually employed under a strategy causing their abilities to be essential; this is where Skill Swap comes in.

Fighting a Rotom-A? No problem, Skill Swap away its Levitate and watch as your partner Pokemon Earthquakes it into oblivion. Up against a Heatran ? Steal Flash Fire and watch your opponent ragequit. Don't even get me started on Gastrodon and Jellicent :). What's even funnier is that you can then pass these abilities on to your partner, which can cover up some vital weaknesses (I've given Dry Skin, Water Absorb, and Flash Fire to my Mamoswine before). Besides this, your opponent's use of spread moves is also greatly hindered.

In Mr. Mime's case, you get the added bonus of being able to pass Technician on to your ally, such as Mamoswine (Icicle Spear, Ice Shard), Marowak (Bonemerang), or even Kyurem-B (Dual Chop)! Finally, I'll end off this (somewhat) tl;dr post with my personal Mr. Mime set:

Mr. Mime @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Skill Swap
- Light Screen
- Fake Out
- Teeter Dance

Yikes, skill swapping Technician on to something could really do some damage I see, particularly with the pokemon mentioned above.

Also, as the poster above me said, Skill Swap is extremely underrated and unexpected as well! People don't expect you to screw with their strategy by swapping around valuable abilities, and it can often turn counters that they had for pokemon like Heatran and Gastrodon into useless members of the other team.

The trick becomes even better when you get the chance to skill swap twice, right, but Mr. Mime may not always be the best for that. Cress and Mew and probably best for the double skill swap, but Technician Skill Swap could be extremely useful.


Also, has anyone tried Telepathy Wobbuffet? Just a thought, Telepathy is really good like it was on Musharna in the BW2 cup.

[VarunR]

I'm trying Shadow Tag + Perish Song, with Wobbuffet obviously as the Shadow Tag user and Celebi and Politoed as the Perish Songers. It doesn't seem to work, especially against smart opponents who anticipate it from the Team Preview, but I have a small sample space right now.

[Arcticblast]

If you want to make that work, perhaps using something with Follow Me or Rage Powder is a nice teammate choice. Since it's doubles, as soon as Perish Song goes up the opponent will realize what's happening and hammer the fuck out of Wobbuffet.

[VarunR]

Thanks, I haven't been using Follow Me/Rage Powder. It's too sad there's no pokemon with both Perish Song and Follow Me/Rage Powder, so your opponent gets at least one chance to hit Wobbuffet before you can switch to a Follow Me/Rage Powder teammate (is there a term for that?). Right now, I'm using the last three slots for Pokemon with strong offensive presence - Terrakion, Latios and Genesect. Genesect isn't meshing well with the team, so would probably switch him for Togekiss/Volcarona/Amoonguss.

Perhaps waiting three turns is too much in a doubles game, which is extremely offense-oriented but the combo looks deadly so I hope there's a way to use it successfully.

lol I forgot Gothitelle. It has access to Protect and Rest, with decent bulk, so it might also be viable. Haven't got much time to test today though.

[ColdToken]

I've recently been using a goodstuffs team with hail on it. I really like the overall bulkyness of every member bar infernape. I like infernape a lot for the fire/fighting coverage which hits great in double and his fake out. Abomasnow has actually been not as much of a liablity as I thought as he counters rain teams really well. Hail is so helpful because of all the focus sashes.

Also I think Cube is so fantastic in doubles because of how hard he hits while retaining fabulous bulk.

Here's a couple matches I had with the team
against sun

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7812456

against rain

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7813319

[Joim]

Originally Posted by Fat Level 51

skill swap mr. mime talk

The whole Skill Swap talk was genious. I tried to apply Skill Swap and Role Play to some extent but it was an utter failure (VGC). After reading your post (and the answer) I might work on new teams that use Skill Swap tactics to see how you can profit from it.

Btw, I find Icy Wind even better on Smogon Doubles than on VGC, if that's possible.

[voodoo pimp]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7824679

A lot of ladder players have no idea how to handle Trick Room, and even when they do it's still powerful since it completely counters so many other team styles. And Eruption Heatran in the sun is just crazy.

[The Agonist]

Hmm, I wonder how viable SR would be in this metagame? Two extra Pokemon are affected than in VGCs, and a lot of players probably aren't used to the doubles metagame, and switch fairly frequently.

[voodoo pimp]

Originally Posted by Fat The Agonist

Hmm, I wonder how viable SR would be in this metagame? Two extra Pokemon are affected than in VGCs, and a lot of players probably aren't used to the doubles metagame, and switch fairly frequently.

There was a bit of discussion on it already starting around here.

[Arcticblast]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7832395

This is a replay between me and ccst. ccst uses a mean stall team that I was only able to defeat in the end by somehow overwhelming it. The misclick really messed me up too, as Explosion couldn't take out Cresselia.

Don't understand what Mandibuzz and Clefable were doing though; Mandibuzz only used Foul Play and Clefable did nothing but take hits and die.

[youngjake93]

Two Pokemon that can fit on any team are Hitmontop and Specs Gastrodon.
Gastrodon WILL score you OHKOs as it is extremely easy to switch a fire or ground type out for it and the +1. Immune to Discharge, Surf, Water Spout. Resists Heat Wave and Rock Slide. Such a solid Pokemon.

Hitmontop is awesome with Intimidate, Fake Out, Wide Guard, Detect, Mach Punch, Sucker Punch, Close Combat. It has sooo many amazing doubles tools that it is like it was made for this metagame.

Also, to chime in on the Stealth Rock discussion... I find it hard to set it up on an offensive team without losing momentum, but incredibly easy with a stall team. They help a lot against Focus Sash, Tornadus-T, and Kyurem-B if you can get them up. It also helps a lot if you force a lot of switches. For example, Earthquakers encourage flying, bug and grass types to switch in. Softening them up with Stealth Rocks helps score some crucial 2hkos.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles7832395

This is a replay between me and ccst. ccst uses a mean stall team that I was only able to defeat in the end by somehow overwhelming it. The misclick really messed me up too, as Explosion couldn't take out Cresselia.

Don't understand what Mandibuzz and Clefable were doing though; Mandibuzz only used Foul Play and Clefable did nothing but take hits and die.

You got super lucky there with that Cresselia. If it hadn't gotten Parahax the turn that it did, that would've been game over.

[HabibsHotDogs]

I really liked Conkeldurr in doubles, it's such a durable tank that can create a lot of upsets with nothing but a payapa berry (halves power of supereffective psychic). It's a shame wide guard can't be used with mach punch but its still a durable wall that literally spams drain punches. Metagross is also incredibly useful in this metagame as meteor mash has remarkably good coverage against a lot of threats and priority bullet punch is always nice. Clear body protects it from intimidate.

[Level 51]

Originally Posted by Fat Arcticblast

If you want to make that work, perhaps using something with Follow Me or Rage Powder is a nice teammate choice. Since it's doubles, as soon as Perish Song goes up the opponent will realize what's happening and hammer the fuck out of Wobbuffet.

Continuing on the topic of Skill Swap, Gothitelle can pass Skill Swap to a Pokemon of its choice... :O

[The Agonist]

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I really liked Conkeldurr in doubles, it's such a durable tank that can create a lot of upsets with nothing but a payapa berry (halves power of supereffective psychic). It's a shame wide guard can't be used with mach punch but its still a durable wall that literally spams drain punches. Metagross is also incredibly useful in this metagame as meteor mash has remarkably good coverage against a lot of threats and priority bullet punch is always nice. Clear body protects it from intimidate.

Wide Guard is perfectly compatible with Mach Punch (I've RNGed like six of them).

[ColdToken]

Do you guys think a chandelure with trickroom+imprison would work to counter tr teams? or would it be too obvious?
I really think trick room is incredibly hard to prepare for while preparing for weather teams and intimidate swapping teams.

[BlankZero]

Originally Posted by Fat ColdToken

Do you guys think a chandelure with trickroom+imprison would work to counter tr teams? or would it be too obvious?
I really think trick room is incredibly hard to prepare for while preparing for weather teams and intimidate swapping teams.

That might work actually. Let us know what you find?

[NixHex]

Imprison Chandelure is used in VGC occasionally; one of my two losses at Long Beach regionals in the 2012 season was against a guy who counterteamed me on turn 1 when his Chandelure used Imprison against my Reuniclus instead of Shadow Ball. That pretty much screwed me up for the rest of the match. Beheeyem also gets the Imprison / TR combo and can actually use 0 IVs and Quiet just in case your opponent successfully gets up TR (thanks to Rage Powder, Follow Me, or Taunt), and Imprison will always go before your opponent's TR when you have a chance to counter it.

Originally Posted by Fat ColdToken

or would it be too obvious?

Not at all obvious. It's one of many viable sets Chandelure can run in doubles.

Edit: Speaking of Beheeyem, it also gets Ally Switch. Take that as you will, I haven't done any testing on it, but just putting it out there.

[Pocket]

This is what I really enjoy about Doubles - there are so many moves with 0 value in Singles that can turn the tables in Doubles. Who would have thought of using Imprison in Singles? This move can be so gamebreaking, preventing the opponent from using common moves like Protect, Trick Room, Earthquake, etc, disrupting the opponent's plans while making your mission easier to execute.

Skill Swap, a move with no use in Singles, but a rad move in doubles, as elaborately explained by Level 51 and Darkmalice! Technician Mr. Mime in particular is an interesting Skill Swapper - Technician Mamoswine with Ice Shard / Icicle Spear anyone?!?! I had no clue Teeter Dance confused multiple users, either xd.

Bulky Skill Swappers are more consistent, imo. Darkmalice described how Cresselia can skill-swap its Levitate to Heatran, which is fucking cool. Also re-activating Intimidate with Skill Swap and weather are also interesting uses of this ability. NixHex has showed one of his VGC logs where he skill-swapped Ninetales's Drought to his Cresselia, who immediately summoned the sun back up! If the opponent changes the weather, Cresseli can simply skill swap Drought to the opponent or his partner to bring back Sun! NixHex was able to keep Sun up through out the game despite Ninetales getting knocked out earlier in the game!

And lol, Ally Switch! Imagine the opponent's frustration as Beheeyem and its partner switched positions xD Beheeyem's partner avoids a potentially lethal attack while staying on the offensive. The move has +1 priority so being slow is okay. Ally Switch is somewhat similar to Rage Powder / Follow Me in that it causes the opponent's moves to miss its target ;d.

Finally, Bummer has graciously blessed us with his manly logo skills! Check it out!

Victini riding a Cresselia~ two brawny intimidate users and Shaymin-Sky's head crest carved into the logo! Ty, Bummer for this amazing artwork!!! Bummer's logo is on the Leaderboard post, which I am working hard to update x0 Still in progress, so please be patient!

EDIT: ty, OVERGRO for catching my mistake, I'll fix this.

[OVERGRO]

Originally Posted by Fat The OP

Follow Me / Rage Powder - Another move tailored for Doubles, but this time all non-spread moves are re-directed to the user of Follow Me or Rage Powder, thereby keeping its partner untouched. Spread moves like Blizzard and Earthquake still hits both users, though. This move comes in handy when you are trying to set up with your other Pokemon. Just like Helping Hand, this support move has +5 priority, so the Follow Me user would even take priority Fake Out for its partner!

Serebii says otherwise:
http://www.serebii.net/games/speedpriority.shtml

As well, a friend and I just tested it (forgot to save a replay)... and as Serebii says, Fake Out has the same priority as Follow Me / Rage Powder, which is +3, lower than HH and Protect.

Thanks :)

[cocoon]

This tier is amazing. So many fun viable pokemon and options. Even with stuff like skymin and deo-a stall is still surprisingly viable. Speaking of deo-a you guys need to try out follow me blastoise and support lopunny, both are really cool and excellent supporters fro deo-a. Jw, if we have enough usage by the end of the month, can doubles be an official tier?

I've also been having fun with disable darkrai, it's like gengar 2.0, haha. No dark void sucks, but the speed tier and power is just oh so good.




Darkrai@Leftovers
Nature Timid
Ev: 4 HP / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
-Protect / Taunt
-Disable
-Dark Pulse
-Focus Blast

Amazing speed tier and raw attacking stats make it an excellent stall breaker. Disabling stuff like terrakion's rockslide and abomasnow's blizzard is just amazing. Taunt shuts down cresselia and bunch of other supporters while dark pulse and focus blast are mandatory coverage moves. It also has access to stuff like icy wind and w-o-w to be an even better supporter.

[Pocket]

coccoon, I am thrilled that you also share our enthusiasm for Doubles :D Thank you for sharing your Darkrai moveset; I was actually quite disappointed with how shitty Hypnosis was on my Darkrai (I don't have a Gravity user fml). Disable really sounds like a nifty option over it, so I will certainly give that a shot over Hypnomiss! I was also considering Thunder Wave, too, since I've seen a few replays here where paralysis truly screwed up the opponent.