np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[RaikouLover]

Apologies. Was just using it as a power comparision.

Anyway... I'm just curious... has anyone here actually whored Tornadus-T to the top of the ladder? We've used it quite extensively.. and while it is pretty freaking good, it is not infallable.

For starters, we like Specs because it allows Regenerator to do what it does. With Specs and rapid spin, we can take an attack because it's defenses are good enough to take one. Life Orb kind of ruins that. Two, the power difference is noticeable. Tornadus-T doesn't NEED Rapid Spin but it is quite easily worn down with Life Orb and Stealth Rock. Also, surprise Scarfers we are really careful about because things like Garchomp, Keldeo, and Terrakion can surprise it and OHKO it. Bottom line, we feel like it is OU because it it requires some team support and you have to play it pretty carefully to let it reach its full potential. I've never had to do that with other Uber suspects. It's kind of "slap on a team and fuck shit up" with previous candidates.

[Curtains]

I am confused about the rules of this thread seriously.. Are we not allowed to talk about pokemon that can kill the suspects?

Pocket EDIT: Yes you can, just don't compare Jolteon to Tornadus-T / don't be a broken radio - if you already made your point once then stop spamming the thread about it forever

[Kidogo]

RaikouLover, I think the problem is that it IS factual that tornadus can outlast it's counters--by definition, having 121 base speed, regenerator, access to u-turn, and few checks with reliable recovery means that it is able to wear them down simply by spamming hurricane + uturn.

Despite this, I don't think torny is broken--we have so many incredibly potent threats in this meta (read: bandkion example above) that I just don't see that as making torny broken.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Kidogo

RaikouLover, I think the problem is that it IS factual that tornadus can outlast it's counters--by definition, having 121 base speed, regenerator, access to u-turn, and few checks with reliable recovery means that it is able to wear them down simply by spamming hurricane + uturn.

Despite this, I don't think torny is broken--we have so many incredibly potent threats in this meta (read: bandkion example above) that I just don't see that as making torny broken.

I think most strong pokemon by definition can outlive its counter. Terrakion can switch out after close combating. heatran can switch out after hitting a water type. Out living a counter is based on the player not the pokemon. If I attack tornadus when it comes in then it may not live as long as my rotom.

[Dungeons]

Originally Posted by Fat Silenced Melody

What's with these posts saying that you need to switch Tornadus-T into an attack o_o Genesect couldn't switch in to anything barring either a U-turn, a Bullet Punch, or an Ice Beam of some kind. If you're switching in your Tornadus-T into a Jirachi or something with BoltBeam coverage, then I don't think you're doing it right...

@Smashbros: Signal Beam isn't a bad move considering how Celebi would otherwise laugh at Jolteon.

yeah you don't have to switch into an attack, cause status is even worse. Switch the bird into my breloom. Spore. swords dance. Stone Edge. and if your not deat, mach punch to clean its feathers. The shear unpredictability of some users are infinate. You can't guarentee a safe switch

[False Sense]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

I think most strong pokemon by definition can outlive its counter. Terrakion can switch out after close combating. heatran can switch out after hitting a water type. Out living a counter is based on the player not the pokemon. If I attack tornadus when it comes in then it may not live as long as my rotom.

You're forgetting that, unlike the two examples you mentioned, Tornadus-T has U-Turn and Regenerator. This makes it so that, with it's blazing speed, can switch out of nearly any pokemon, do damage, and recover health all at once. The damage buildup on its foes and the easy regaining of it's own health is why it's so easy to outlive it's counters.

[Silenced Melody]

Could someone please give me a definition of over-centralized metagame ._.
Tornadus-T on its own will usually have a limit as to how much damage it will inflict upon the opposing team (With Hurricanes or U-turns). From my experience, it's usually the pressure of being forced to make the decision of losing my momentum or losing team members that makes Tornadus-T such a big threat.

Think of Tornadus-T as something that can support the rest of the team through momentum but has the ability to drop Hurricanes as opposed to something that only spams Hurricanes.

yeah you don't have to switch into an attack, cause status is even worse. Switch the bird into my breloom. Spore. swords dance. Stone Edge. and if your not deat, mach punch to clean its feathers. The shear unpredictability of some users are infinate. You can't guarentee a safe switch

...Why are you randomly switching Tornadus-T into things ._. With that being said, Sleep Talk is a great move on Tornadus-T, so I think you'd have a hard time Swords Dancing when the bird can OHKO you with any move lol. Seriously, if you're using Tornadus-T to take a lot of hits, you're doing it wrong.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat False Sense

You're forgetting that, unlike the two examples you mentioned, Tornadus-T has U-Turn and Regenerator. This makes it so that, with it's blazing speed, can switch out of nearly any pokemon, do damage, and recover health all at once. The damage buildup on its foes and the easy regaining of it's own health is why it's so easy to outlive it's counters.

Well just predict the u-turn, take a hit and hit the incoming pokemon with a status move or set up your own hazards. It is not a hard concept. Also you can even wish or pain split the incoming pokemon. Pain split would work because rotom has so low health and the incoming pokemon would have to be really weak for rotom not to gain any health.

[Jayde]

Huge snowstorm outside so I didn't really have much else to do. Anyway,

Originally Posted by Fat Eo Ut Mortus

Ban Tornadus-T pls

edit: so I don't get infracted:

Tornadus-T, at this point, is too much for the metagame to handle. Flying is one of the best STABs to spam in OU, and with its 121 base speed and high SpAtk, Tornadus-T abuses Hurricane spam to perfection. In addition, Torn-T has very few counters. In my opinion, Specially Defensive Jirachi and Rotom-W are really the only things used in OU that can switch in reliably, and even then, Torn-T can just U-turn out and come back in at full health. The cycle repeats itself and the counter is worn down, but Regenerator keeps Torn-T healthy. Its ability and the survivability it brings play a huge part in making Torn-T broken. Revenge killing is difficult as well since you basically always need a scarfer to do it, and these are easily predicted around. Torn-T has no "real" counters due to it's great coverage and ability to just U-turn out without consequence.

[False Sense]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well just predict the u-turn, take a hit and hit the incoming pokemon with a status move or set up your own hazards. It is not a hard concept. Also you can even wish or pain split the incoming pokemon. Pain split would work because rotom has so low health and the incoming pokemon would have to be really weak for rotom not to gain any health.

...That doesn't really address Tornadus-T much. What you said is true of all Volt Turning pokemon. It doesn't change the fact that Tornadus recovers it's health by leaving the field, which again, makes it very easy to keep alive.

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well just predict the u-turn, take a hit and hit the incoming pokemon with a status move or set up your own hazards. It is not a hard concept. Also you can even wish or pain split the incoming pokemon. Pain split would work because rotom has so low health and the incoming pokemon would have to be really weak for rotom not to gain any health.

This is, of course, assuming that Tornadus-T U-turns out into something that can't OHKO the Pokemon you switched in to take it. Which isn't likely, considering that's why Tornadus-T went for U-turn in the first place.

[TheDoctor1]

I am not surprised that tornadus-t is being suspected (in fact i predicted this on ps like a week or two ago) and i can see him being banned. I find a major issue isnt that some pokes can come in on him and wall him, but that he can keep switching out and gaining back his hp. this means even pokes that can switch in on him will eventually be worn down unless they have a way to heal as well (which is why rachi and zapdos are imo two of the best walls against this poke). Anther issue is the over-centralization this poke causes, pretty much forcing every team to hold a counter for it.

Keldeo on the other hand i am surprised to find him being tested. In fact i am down right confused by it as i personally have never had any trouble stopping him. From what i understand the scarf set is his most commonly used set, that being said I feel all teams already must have a poke that resists water so does that make his ability to hit on the psy side with a spc attack fighting move what makes him so threatening? This is legitimately a question so i can better understand why this pokemon is being suspected and from there i will be able to better understand and think about if i agree or not with him being suspected.

[Lavos Spawn]

I'm 22 battles in and I've won all of them with a full-on Rain Balanced team that plays to Tornadus-T's strengths. I get up Stealth Rock and Spikes easily with my special and physical wall, respectively, then take out the opposing weather starter (if needed) with Dugtrio, paralyze the opponent's faster Pokemon and clean with Torn-T. It's too simple, really. I'll post more later after I've done some more battles.

[Dungeons]

This whole descussion taught me two things. A) We can all fight over Hurricane and Regenorator becoming Uber and B) I should be playing other teirs more often.

Hurricane may be nice, but with Thunder, ice beam can make way better synergy than Torn. Considering that is just two slots. Thats what helped Genesect so much. He had insaine coverage.

The thing I dislike is that there is an argument on a slightly good coverage STAB and an ability. I couldn't fathom what would happen if Weavile got U-turn and regenorator :/

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Dungeons

This whole descussion taught me two things. A) We can all fight over Hurricane and Regenorator becoming Uber and B) I should be playing other teirs more often.

Hurricane may be nice, but with Thunder, ice beam can make way better synergy than Torn. Considering that is just two slots. Thats what helped Genesect so much. He had insaine coverage.

The thing I dislike is that there is an argument on a slightly good coverage STAB and an ability. I couldn't fathom what would happen if Weavile got U-turn and regenorator :/

He'd still be priority weak and have a lack of good STAB moves without a prior boost. Weavile couldn't abuse Regenerator; Tornadus-T can. Regardless, Weavile is completely irrelevant to this discussion; this is about Tornadus-T.

[Dualshock]

Originally Posted by Fat X5Dragon

I don't think there is a problem with any of these pokemon individually but like Swift Swim when ypu pack a whole bunch of them in a team it kinda of sucks.

So Tornadus-T? On the border. Keledo? Hell naw. Together? Ban dat shit.

This guy says it right here 'Together? Ban dat shit' key word here is together why not just make it so Torn-T and Keldeo and not allowed on the same team as by themselves they are not impossible to take down but when paired with each other under rain they are probably the best offensive core on the game.By doing this it eliminate one huge threat on a rain team

[Curtains]

The foe's Rocks/Spikes (ferrothorn) used Power Whip!
It's not very effective... Tornadus-Therian lost 78% of its health!

i shit you not. This happened. OU.

Pocket EDIT: must've been a CB Ferro's Power Whip against Tornadus-T after Superpower defense drop: 77-92%

Curtains EDIT: Thanks pocket i didnt know what the fuck was going on.

[Rayland]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

i shit you not. This happened. OU.

Pocket EDIT: must've been a CB Ferro's Power Whip against Tornadus-T after Superpower defense drop: 77-92%

Curtains EDIT: Thanks pocket i didnt know what the fuck was going on.

Why did you stay in? Tornadus-T cannot OHKO Ferrothorn without Heatwave, and you were most likely in the rain, so switching out would have been the better play. Tornadus-T fainted due to a misplay on your part.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat Rayland

Why did you stay in? Tornadus-T cannot OHKO Ferrothorn without Heatwave, and you were most likely in the rain, so switching out would have been the better play. Tornadus-T fainted due to a misplay on your part.

Well I went for a superpower. I thought It would KO. Mark that one up as another hard counter for tornadus-t.

[ala]

You mean a check. Ferro gets 2hko'd by Hurricane.

(stop posting please)

[RabidChipmunk]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

Well I went for a superpower. I thought It would KO. Mark that one up as another hard counter for tornadus-t.

No one is saying that Tornadus-T has no counters (and if they are, they're wrong). They're saying Tornadus-T has no "hard" counters; Tornadus-T has the ability to outlast all it's counters, ensuring that they won't be counters by the end of the match. Tornadus can wear down it's counters, but they can't do the same in return.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat ala

You mean a check. Ferro gets 2hko'd by Hurricane.

(stop posting please)

What are your evs on your ferrothorn? Did you factor in protect? (Dont make vague post please)

[ala]

Originally Posted by Fat Curtains

What are your evs on your ferrothorn? Did you factor in protect? (Dont make vague post please)

...

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252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 169-201 (48.01 - 57.1%) -- 92.58% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 148-175 (42.04 - 49.71%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T Superpower vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Ferrothorn: 166-198 (47.15 - 56.25%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Standard spread is 252 HP / 88 Defense / 168 Sp.Defense with Relaxed nature:

...

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252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 173-204 (49.14 - 57.95%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

No I didn't factor in protect, but Ferro has to be at max health to be able to switch in, basically any damage incurred means it will lose. I know from experience that Ferro is not a good switch in.

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat dragonuser

Yes with very little support (either a Politoed or its own Rain Dance) it can sweep an incredible amount of the metagame. It is faster than nearly the entire unboosted metagame and like 4 (maybe 1-2 more?) Pokemon can really stand up to its attacks. I don't see how it doesn't sweep a large amount of the metagame as it naturally outspeeds like 99% of it and only like 5% of it can withstand its attacks.

This is an overstatement. Many offensive and defensive Pokemon can live a hit from Torn-T and OHKO or cripple back. Take for example the offensive team i have been using recently: Deo-D, Weavile, Garchomp, Breloom, Kingdra, and Gengar. Deo-D survives a hit and sets-up hazards or paralyzes Torn-T with T-Wave (it has Mental Herb so Taunt doesn't work), rendering it useless, Weavile outspeeds and OHKOs or does major damage and possibly kills if Torn-T switches out with Pursuit, Breloom deals 65% damage min with a +2 Fight Gem Mach Punch, meaning that at worst LO Torn-T will die after killing Breloom and at best Breloom will OHKO after SR, Garchomp can usually take a hit from both the Specs and LO variants if only SR is up and then OHKO back, Kingdra outspeeds and OHKOes, and Gengar OHKOes with Tbolt after SR and can take a hit if its Sash is intact (which happens quite often). As you can see i didn't take extreme measures to stop Torn-T with my offensive team, and in fact i don't even have any check to it, only faster Pokemon that OHKO, priority, and slower Pokemon that can take a hit and OHKO. And for anyone ready to say that Weavile is on my team only for Torn-T i will advise him to think again. Weavile's main job on the team is to revenge kill dragons, and trap and kill Starmie, preventing it from spinning. Revenge killing Torn-T was just an added bonus that my team could do without. Yeah it is true that my team has Kingdra, which means that i have an advantage over rain teams, but i didn't put Kingdra in the team to deal with Torn-T, i did so because the special RD set can clean offensive teams very good as well as pressuring a lot rain teams which are very popular.

I also saw some people say that the combo of Torn-T + Ferro in rain is almost impossible to deal with and i have to say that i really disagree. SubCM Jirachi sets up on this combo easily, Zapdos has two really handy moves in its arsenal, Heat Wave and Volt Switch, CB Scizor can OHKO both with the right prediction, and even SpD Heatran can trouble them with good prediction.

I am not saying that Torn-T is clearly not broken, as i am not even sure myself if it is or not, but i lean towards not banning it. However, with good reasoning i could definitely be convinced that it deserves to be banned, as i have had trouble facing it a few times, but overall i felt it was manageable. But really people should think more before posting, as many arguments in this thread are very bad and do nothing to help prove whether Torn-T is broken in OU or not. People should stop bitching and start finding ways, if they haven't already, to deal with Torn-T.

[Curtains]

Originally Posted by Fat ala

252 SpA Choice Specs Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 186-219 (52.84 - 62.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 161-191 (45.73 - 54.26%) -- 58.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

4 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Ferrothorn: 203-239 (57.67 - 67.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Standard spread is 252 HP / 88 Defense / 168 Sp.Defense with Relaxed nature:

252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 188-224 (53.4 - 63.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Better but you didn't factor in protect at all. It all depends what the opponent is running. On my teams ferrothorn isn't a first switch in to tornadus-t anyway. But with a specially defensive spread it could survive after protect and hit back with gyro ball for a near KO (probably after SR and recoil damage)