np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane

[qedragonite]

I think a lot of posts in this thread have argued something like this: pokemon x and y are the strongest pokemon in the metagame, therefore they should be banned. However, there will always be a few pokes who are the best or must useful in the tier. The question is: how large of a gap are we willing to accept between the best and the rest? This varies among players, hence all of the vitriol in this thread.

For me, Keldeo is clearly a powerhouse, but not to the point where it overwhelms the metagame. He's a terrific choice item user (he can avoid the drawbacks of other choice users because Hydro Pump is so powerful in rain), but does face competition from the likes of Latios. Keldeo nearly always ko's something, and can clean up a weakened opponent, but I think that's a reasonable expectation for any elite offensive pokemon.

I think Tornadus T is a bit different. He's the toughest poke in the tier to play around, since Hurricane + U-Turn can cause his checks (which do exist) major problems. He also has little competition, due to his unique speed tier and ability. I'll need to test more to come to a final conclusion (could anyone post a battle between two competent players where Tornadus T completely swings an otherwise close match?), but I think he's right on the edge of overpowered.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Eo Ut Mortus

Comparing Tornadus-T to Crobat and Latias in GEN 4 is just as bad as if not worse than comparing it to Jolteon. It doesn't even prove your point, since both were considered broken by non-quantifiable amounts.

It's dubious enough to argue "X is powerful in Metagame 1, and Y is not as powerful in Metagame 2; X is not broken; therefore, Y is not broken."

Even more illogical is the premise of your post, which is essentially, "X is powerful in Metagame 1, and Y is not as powerful in Metagame 2; X is broken; therefore, Y is not broken." It is completely fallacious.

Having said that, I want to request a moratorium on comparisons such as these, since they are nearly always needlessly roundabout ways of arguing a point that devolve into detail nitpicking and detract from legitimate metagame discussion.

It's not fallacious to look to similar cases in the past to have an idea on what to do for a present one. In many legal cases, this is exactly what they do. It might not prove anything, but it gives you a clearer picture of the situation. If you read what I said, you will note that I never claimed "because Crobat was more effective in gen 4 UU, therefore it was BL and Tornadus-T is not", but more of "what qualities did Crobat and Latias have (what qualities does a broken Pokemon need) that Tornadus-T doesn't?" I was pointing to Tornadus-T's lack of weather independence and relatively low number of switch-in opportunities as a few reasons to why it's not broken, not "because it's not as broken as Crobat or Latias".

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

1 | Politoed | 4818 | 27.431% | 4425 | 30.230%

9 | Tyranitar | 2267 | 12.907% | 2025 | 13.834%

So... 1/3 of times your opponent will show up it's own rain for you. While only the 2/10 of times your opponent will carry other weather caster, only the 20% of times you'll have to battle a weather war in order to retain rain, and you know, Tyranitar and Ninetales are weak to water, so, on those 20% of times, you have the type-advantage to win the weather war, so, let's even put the worst scenary of 50/50 chance to win the weather war (everyone knows that rain usually wins it, and Tornadus-T helps even futher to it)... only the 10% of times Tornadus-T will be out from rain, while on the 90% of times he'll spam it's overpowered Hurricanes, and will just flee of it's counters (less Jolteon) with U-Turn while he's not having damage at all from hazards because Regenerator (and if Stealth Rock if out from play, he'll even recover 30% of it's health on place of 5%).

Yes, Rain is predominant, and yes, Rain is the best weather. This have to taken in account while we talk about Tornadus-T, because Rain will not be used less unless it's best abussers are out from the tier, and even then it's powerful as hell (Kyogre and friend are the prime force on Ubers from it's born).

I addressed why I don't think rain is standard conditions. Yes, it's used on 1/3 of teams. It's also NOT used on 2/3 of teams. It is dominant, yes, but it is also kept relatively in check by the other weather inducers. When I say "standard battle conditions", I mean you can pretty much enter the battle and it's there pretty much all the time, like Stealth Rock is. If you think it's standard conditions, try running a Rain Dance + Swift Swim team and see how many games you actually run into Politoeds. It is actually surprisingly low.

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

And even then, Tornadus-T is not 100% useless outside of Rain, like others said before, Air Slash is still powerful because it's almost not resisted on the tier, it also do have a dandy handy flinch rate. Tornadus-T still have it's Taunt, making him the best wallbreaker and taunter of the game, and he still have it's ability and it's inmunities to spikes, making him able to scout a high ammount of times on mid match, and to just wreak havoc, flee from it's counters, and stuff. So, even outside of rain (only 1/10 of times at best), if SR is up, he's still the best wallbreaker of the tier and the best scouter currently available, and if SR is down, he's almost invencible unless the opponent carries multiple checks or Tornadus-T is the last standing Pokémon of the team.

In other words, a team with Tornadus-T have an important higher chance to win than a team without him, with the actual metagame, of course, but the actual metagame will not change at all, except because introducing somewhat horrible counters and checks just for him, or just starting to overcentralizing him with the time, because that fact.

Note: And just to make it clear, I'm not using the usage-stats as a main argument, because, for example, let's say Tyranitar is used 20% of times, Ninetales 14% of times, and Abomasnow 1% of times, it's still a really slow chance of 35% to start a weather war, where if you lose the 50% of times (unrealistic, actually), he'll still have rain up on the 83.50% of times.

Also, I never said Tornadus-T was bad outside of rain. I said it was unremarkable, which it definitely is. Air Slash coming off 110 SpA without any way of boosting it is shit, I don't care which metagame above UU you are talking about. Let's see you try breaking Latios, or even Hippowdon with Air Slash.

So, even outside of rain (only 1/10 of times at best), if SR is up, he's still the best wallbreaker of the tier and the best scouter currently available, and if SR is down, he's almost invencible unless the opponent carries multiple checks or Tornadus-T is the last standing Pokémon of the team.

1) I never realised that 27.43% = 90%. Where did you get 1/10 times? Please show me your working out.
2) Tornadus-T being "invincible" is completely laughable. When you tell me "invincible", I get stuff like Lugia, and Giratina, and ExtremeKiller Arceus, not Tornadus-T. Please tone down the hyperbole, it's not helping.

In other words, a team with Tornadus-T have an important higher chance to win than a team without him

How do you know that? Where are your figures? Where are your calculations?

[Scarfwynaut]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

Oh, and yeah, if you dislike to predict and if you have a Gengar, just use him, or just use any Pokémon who doesn't care at all about either.

Uh... yeah no Chansey and Blissey almost always have more PP than Gengar, they will always win the PP stall war. Chansey and Blissey completely counter most Gengars, not the other way around. If you want to attempt to wall out Chansey or Blissey with Gengar, go ahead, I will wait 80+ turns to see your precious counter struggle to death.

I am honestly surprised that people are doubting spD-Jirachi's ability to completely and utterly counter Tornadus-T, the most damage it can ever do is heat wave in the sun, which you should not be using, and HP-ground, which only 3HKOes 3% of the time and is never used. Have a problem with Jirachi taking 16-20% from u-turn? Use protect, get back 12% of it back every time, bar them switching in a set up sweeper. Even then they can't do that forever because unlike Tornadus, set up sweepers actually get slowly chipped away by hazards and small damage. The second they stop using u-turn and attempt to attack, you wish, and all your health comes back. Outside extreme hax, your Jirachi should never lose.

And don't say Jirachi can be easily trapped by Dugtrio because that thing can never 1HKO (doing max 70% unless banded, which none are). Jirachi will use body slam, get a paralysis on Dugtrio, and kill Dugtrio off the next turn, because its Jirachi, queen of hax. Magnezone on the other hand, well you got me...

[Deluks917]

I am not sure why people are saying rain teams are easy to build.

Politoed + Tornadus + either keldeo or tentacruel is triple electric weak. If you use ferrothorn without a spinner sometimes you give an opposing ferrothorn oppurtunities ot spike up. If you use specs toed + scarf keldeo you are going to have trouble with Water absord pokemon. In general I think rain teams are rather hard to build.

But regardless I am doing ok (current 4 on ladder) with weatherless bulky offense. I have scarf keldeo and it has been really great against all weathers. I think keldeo is better than terrakion as a scarf-mon outside of weather. Even scarf hydro pump does a ton of dmg. In rain basically nothing that is not immune to water can come in more than one time to a scarf hydro pump.

[White symphoni]

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

^ He can just U-Turn your Chansey; then your Chansey suffers a lot, and is destroyed by anything with decent physical attacks or Pyshock. The only prediction needed: Chansey will fail Toxic or launch a Seismic Toss? 1. If toxic, just change to something who doesn't care about it or can bounce it back, or can heal it up. 2. If Seismic Toss, to any Pokémon with high HP, or recovery moves, or regenerator, or a ghost. Oh, and yeah, if you dislike to predict and if you have a Gengar, just use him, or just use any Pokémon who doesn't care at all about either.

He didn't list Chansey as a Tornadus-T counter(It's still a check).He said that if you don't prepare for a threat,you're going to get destroyed by it.For If you didn't prepare for Chansey and made a team full of special attackers,you're doomed when Chansey comes out.

I don't see how saying Tornadus-T can just switch to something else being a legitimate argument,any and every pokemon can "switch".Tornadus-T just uses U-turn which eases prediction.You STILL have to predict whether your opponent will switch or not,you just don't need to predict what he'll switch into.

Also,I think Regenarator is being too much focused on.Tornadus-T still suffers from SR and LO.Regenerator just helps it recover from that damage.Surely,SR and LO damage isn't something people rely on completely for beating something.

[qedragonite]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

1) I never realised that 27.43% = 90%. Where did you get 1/10 times? Please show me your working out.

I could be wrong, but I think the assumption is that if you're using Tornadus T, you're using Politoed. Therefore, there will be rain from the moment your Politoed enters the fray until your opponent changes it.
Here are the November 2012 ou suspect stats:
9 | Tyranitar | 2267 | 12.907% | 2025 | 13.834%
23 | Ninetales | 1507 | 8.580% | 1416 | 9.674%
40 | Hippowdon | 841 | 4.788% | 790 | 5.397%
57 | Abomasnow | 528 | 3.006% | 482 | 3.293%
Disregarding the moves sunny day/sandstorm/hail (all rare), your rain will be contested by opposing weather about 30% of the time (ie, 70% of the time you get free rein, pun intended). Assuming you win half of the weather wars (a conservative estimate), you'll have rain 85% of the time when using Tornadus T + Politoed.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat qedragonite

I could be wrong, but I think the assumption is that if you're using Tornadus T, you're using Politoed. Therefore, there will be rain from the moment your Politoed enters the fray until your opponent changes it.
Here are the November 2012 ou suspect stats:
9 | Tyranitar | 2267 | 12.907% | 2025 | 13.834%
23 | Ninetales | 1507 | 8.580% | 1416 | 9.674%
40 | Hippowdon | 841 | 4.788% | 790 | 5.397%
57 | Abomasnow | 528 | 3.006% | 482 | 3.293%
Disregarding the moves sunny day/sandstorm/hail (all rare), your rain will be contested by opposing weather about 30% of the time (ie, 70% of the time you get free rein, pun intended). Assuming you win half of the weather wars (a conservative estimate), you'll have rain 85% of the time when using Tornadus T + Politoed.

Yeah okay, I'll give him that because I forgot to count in that Tornadus-T will pretty much always be used with Politoed. It's still not standard battle conditions BECAUSE these other weather conditions exist. When I say standard battle conditions, I mean, you bring out rain, and pretty much close to always, you will have it. Right now, all three of the other weather conditions are having close to the same amount of prevalence as rain, so in terms of number alone, they are close enough to say you won't always have rain when you want it. As for the matchups, that also depends on how every team is played, and putting an estimate on the number of weather match-ups you will win is just drawing at thin air, since there are way too many factors involved.

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Originally Posted by Fat shrang

It's not fallacious to look to similar cases in the past to have an idea on what to do for a present one. In many legal cases, this is exactly what they do. It might not prove anything, but it gives you a clearer picture of the situation. If you read what I said, you will note that I never claimed "because Crobat was more effective in gen 4 UU, therefore it was BL and Tornadus-T is not", but more of "what qualities did Crobat and Latias have (what qualities does a broken Pokemon need) that Tornadus-T doesn't?" I was pointing to Tornadus-T's lack of weather independence and relatively low number of switch-in opportunities as a few reasons to why it's not broken, not "because it's not as broken as Crobat or Latias".

I called your assumed premise fallacious. If that's not even your premise, though, then your comparison is completely pointless. You did not need to compare two random* suspects to Tornadus-T to claim that it wasn't broken due to weather limitations and lack of bulk. The only context it provides is irrelevant and misleading.

Furthermore, your reasoning is also still fallacious; you cherry picked two random* suspects in two completely different metagames. By your logic, Drizzle + Swift Swim and Excadrill should not have been banned because they are both weather reliant, a characteristic that Crobat and Latias lacked.

"what qualities did Crobat and Latias have (what qualities does a broken Pokemon need) that Tornadus-T doesn't?"

This is pure arbitrariness. There is nothing that makes either Crobat or Latias the standard portrait of a suspect.

*I know you gave reasoning as to why you chose them, but neither suspect, especially Crobat, in its respective metagame is remotely similar to Tornadus-T in OU. They may as well be random. See, these comparisons inevitably involve into detail-nitpicking. Ban obfuscating comparisons pls.

[shrang]

Originally Posted by Fat Eo Ut Mortus

I called your assumed premise fallacious. If that's not even your premise, though, then your comparison is completely pointless. You did not need to compare two random* suspects to Tornadus-T to claim that it wasn't broken due to weather limitations and lack of bulk. The only context it provides is irrelevant and misleading.

Furthermore, your reasoning is also still fallacious; you cherry picked two random* suspects in two completely different metagames. By your logic, Drizzle + Swift Swim and Excadrill should not have been banned because they are both weather reliant, a characteristic that Crobat and Latias lacked.



This is pure arbitrariness. There is nothing that makes either Crobat or Latias the standard portrait of a suspect.

*I know you gave reasoning as to why you chose them, but neither suspect, especially Crobat, in its respective metagame is remotely similar to Tornadus-T in OU. They may as well be random. See, these comparisons inevitably involve into detail-nitpicking. Ban obfuscating comparisons pls.

Crobat, like Tornadus-T, was a fast attacker (not even going to bother with Flying-type) that outsped major portions of the metagame. It relied on hitting fast and relatively hard (but not that hard). It wasn't really a sweeper, it couldn't really provide gamebreaking support apart from whittling down potential counters and U-turning out (or Taunt them). Sounds oddly like Tornadus-T to me.

Latias, like Tornadus-T, was a fast special attacker that outsped major portions of the metagame. It also relied on hitting fast and relatively hard (but not so hard that it one shots everything... like Deoxys-A). It wasn't really a sweeper either, it couldn't really provide gamebreaking support apart from punching a couple of holes here and there and potentially Tricking a couple of walls.

Look, if you don't want these kind of comparisons, fine, then I'll just state explicitly the reasons. Either way, it makes no difference.

[thebrownie]

Originally Posted by Fat White symphoni

He didn't list Chansey as a Tornadus-T counter(It's still a check).He said that if you don't prepare for a threat,you're going to get destroyed by it.For If you didn't prepare for Chansey and made a team full of special attackers,you're doomed when Chansey comes out.

Yep. Chansey isn't a great example though because there is a select few special attackers that can function as mixed attackers (keldeo/lati@s)... maybe a better example is a skarmory.... since there aren't any common physical threats to skarmory.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat HabibsHotDogs

I can't see how a pokemon can be broken on the basis that it's "scarf" set is broken. At the end of the day you're locking yourself into one move.. if Latias switches into an icy wind.. just switch back out into an ice resist.. Jellicent takes a specs HP ghost? check it with a ghost resist. In a metagame where there is a water + fighting resist on almost every team, Keldeo can't be "broken" by considering it's scarf set. Albeit I can see where you're coming from when you say that its difficult for hyperoffense to deal with a scarfed Keldeo in rain. That said, salamence is in a similar position with its scarfed set with the exception of it actually being revenge-able by scizor and mamoswine due to a SR weakness.

If Keldeo was to be considered "broken", I would say it would be broken on the basis that not a lot of pokemon can take two rounds of life orb boosted Keldeo hits, I seriously believe (after testing a lot) that it's LO + Taunt set is the most broken as it's counters are few and far between (252 hp Latias/Sp Def Celebi/Amoonguss/Toxicroak). To iterate my point consider my current 25-2 win/loss featuring a life orb keldeo with NO politoed partner.

That said, I don't find Keldeo broken at all, at least not to the point of banishing it to ubers, she really has created a more interesting metagame as opposed to Tornadus.. who made Jirachi even MORE common then it was and indirectly made specially offensive landorus useless in tandem with Keldeo thanks to specially defensive rotoms and celebi's popping up on every other team.

I am still surprised that despite these threats allegedly being "overpowered" due to rain and everyone criticising the ease with which they deal with hyper offense.. Jirachi has still not been nominated for consideration! I'll stay on topic though and argue that Tornadus-T is overpowered to the point that it has only a few checks that can ALL be worn out or lured by his teammates and it has quite literally 2 or 3 viable OU "counters", but that depends on how you define a counter.

I actually agree with JabbaTheGriffin about this fact. When you battle with Scarf Keldeo, it seems like you were battling with a Swift Swimmer (remember that Scarf Keldeo can, in fact, be faster than many Swift Swimmers with their speed doubled) while the Specs has very few safe switch-ins. Unfortunately, SpD Jellicent, the only thing that is capable of taking Hydro Pump/Surf and Secret Sword all day, is 2HKOed by a super-effective Hidden Power (i.e. Ghost or Electric) after Stealth Rock damage. Other things like SpD Celebi, and Latias, can also take to some extent, but also suffer from the same fate about Hidden Power Ghost (the latter must also watch out for Icy Wind). This makes the Specs set pretty much uncounterable, while the Scarf set is almost impossible to revenge kill because it is damn fast and, unlike Terrakion, is not weak to any sort of priority; in fact, Keldeo resists both Ice Shard and Bullet Punch. Not to mention that its Water STAB is boosted by rain, which potentially gives him a lot of opportunities to spam powerful attacks with very few safe switch-ins.

That's the reason why I think that Keldeo should be considered for banning.

[alexwolf]

It's like battling with a Swift Swimmer, except it is locked into a move, which makes for a world of difference. I agree that Scarf Keldeo is a big opponent for offensive teams to face, but it is no way making them struggle or invalidates them just by existing. Scarf Keldeo has multiple checks that any offensive team should be running if they want to have success in this metagame, in the same way that if they don't have checks for Terrakion, Dnite, etc they will lose. Here are some Keldeo checks that can fit into an offensive team: offensive or NP Celebi, Tentacruel (can fit on rain offense teams), Latias, Gyarados, Latios, SpD Rotom-W, Toxicroak, Venusaur, and Kingdra (and i only mentioned Pokemon that can usually switch into both of Keldeo's STABs, as the list of Pokemon capable of abusing a choice locked Keldeo is quite large). This is not a small list so i think that offensive teams have more than enough ways to deal with a Pokemon that greatly threatens them, meaning that they can adapt without making big compromises. I really don't think that Keldeo is broken.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Can someone explain to me why we are consistently saying that Tornadus can batter it's counters with Specs Hurricanes and then turning around and saying things such as "and if Chansey comes in I can Taunt to prevent recovery!

Keep in mind that Tornadus has competition for its final moveslot, particularly dependent on the item it holds. Sleep Talk, a coverage move such as Heat Wave and apparently Rain Dance all serve to give competition to Taunt for that moveslot, meaning that Taunt is considerably less prevalent than has been suggested. This is particularly true when you realize that it can only feasibly run Taunt, or indeed Rain Dance, on the Life Orb set.

So please, when using Choice Specs Tornadus as an example of its power combined with its recovery options, don't then talk about its non-attacking movepool (bar Sleep Talk). It isn't relevant.


As a side point also keep in mind that if using Life Orb Tornadus you will be receiving a net loss on health each time you switch in and attack, and that you run the risk of being hit by an attack while you Taunt that not only lessens your ability to switch in but also increases your vulnerability to priority attacks.

[Jukain]

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

Um Tornadus-T can Taunt Chansey / Skarmory, but it wont enjoy tanking SToss / Brave Bird in the process

I just want to touch upon this: it seems like there arguments flying around left and right that involve Sleep Talk and Taunt to get around some of Tornadus-T' s counters. It can't have both at once! So either it can beat Breloom or walls like Chansey, Skarmory, etc. Well, what Texas said.

Originally Posted by Fat Nyara

He can just U-Turn your Chansey; then your Chansey suffers a lot, and is destroyed by anything with decent physical attacks or Pyshock.

Specs U-turn vs. 4/252 Chansey -- 10.28 - 12.14%
LO -- 14.79 - 17.6%

U-turn does next to nothing, really.

Originally Posted by Fat thebrownie

Chansey isn't a great example though because there is a select few special attackers that can function as mixed attackers (keldeo/lati@s)... maybe a better example is a skarmory.... since there aren't any common physical threats to skarmory.

Not true in the slightest, there exist numerous physical attackers that run Electric/Fire moves or are one of those types. If anything, I'd say Chansey's a much better example. Chansey can take most weaker physical hits with ease, which is what (bar Psyshock Latis and Secret Sword Keldeo) most specially based mixed attackers would have.

Oh, and Scarf Keldeo... like a Swift Swimmer? Yeah... a) it is locked into one move b) it can't boost / has no LO or Specs c) it's only attack that's all that powerful is Hydro Pump which isn't even that powerful without a boosting item d) it can be outsped by some Scarfers such as Latios and e) is easily walled. None of which are characteristic of a Swift Swimmer. Keldeo is simply another revenge killer, though it is a good one. Specs can be revenge killed by most Scarfers and set up on by Dragonite/Latias. OU also has three HARD counters to Keldeo in Jellicent, Tentacruel, and Roserade along with near perfect ones in Amoonguss, Latias, Latios, Gyarados, Kingdra, Venusaur, and Toxicroak in addition to the ones alexwolf mentioned. Keldeo is by no means hard to check / counter.

Lastly:

Originally Posted by Fat JabbaTheGriffin

I think Torn-t is pretty obviously broken. Too fast and, and while its SpA isn't the best, Hurricane (in rain) is one of the best moves in the game. It helps rain easily control the weather battles (with access to u-turn making ninetales not as safe of a switch as it should be and superpower making ttar useless). Tenta is a great partner too, so SR isn't always up like it may be against other team archetypes (weatherless offense for instance). And skipping past the paper arguments, it just plays too well for the metagame.

First off, "too fast". It can still be revenge killed by Scarfers and Chlorophyll mons. You can say "too fast" for pretty much every fast threat in OU based on that. Secondly, "Hurricane is one of the best moves in OU". The same with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, etc. It does help with the weather war, but every weather abuser like Chlorophyll mons, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, and Tentacruel does that. "Plays too well for the metagame" seems almost arbitrary to me. I don't get what you mean; could you explain further? Moreover, how does Tornadus-T do these things better than the Pokemon I mentioned? I really don't see your point, with all due respect to you being a council member.

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat White symphoni

Also,I think Regenarator is being too much focused on.Tornadus-T still suffers from SR and LO.Regenerator just helps it recover from that damage.Surely,SR and LO damage isn't something people rely on completely for beating something.

Yeah, it is. Well, LO+SR+Priority. Force something out a couple times, sack a couple Pokes, and then one-shot it with Mamo or Scizor. If something outspeeds your team and can break your walls, that's really the only option IME. Without Regenerator, SR+2 LO+SR would leave it at 30% on the second switch-in(after Hurricane+U-Turn the first time), easily revengable, especially since it can't attack and switch out again. With Regenerator, it's at 55%. Not great, but that's a decent amount for a sweeper. Things get worse when you add in Spin and Wish support, which are easy for Rain teams.

As for Keldeo, it's good, not broken. If it's hard for offensive teams to counter, good, maybe offensive teams will become less common, something the current meta desperately needs.

[preserve]

I don't think both of these pokemon are worthy of a ban.

Tornadus T

Entry hazards are huge despite what some people say. 33%-25% leaves only 8% left to heal after every switch in, a little more than leftovers recovery and not to mention life orb recoil on tornadus will wear it down even more.

Adamant Life Orb Mamoswine can KO it after Stealth Rocks and even if it doesn't, it will leave it at very low health, making it die to life orb recoil on the next turn.

Specially defensive rotom may take a hit, but scarf rotom can get a suprise hit on or even KO with t-bolt. Any other decently fast scarfer that has a super effective move on will most likely kill it.

Specially defensive Jellicent can come in on a save switch and take any one hit from tornadus and can burn or poison it or if it has taunt can attack it with a rain boosted water attack to do decent damage. It may not be the best to deal with Tornadus, but it can still be used.

As for keldeo I haven't been against it much but I saw that jellicent is usally the best counter because it's immune to it's dual stabs and doesn't take much from it's non stab move's besides super effective hidden power's but still probably doesn't do more than half.

[RaikouLover]

One thing for people to think about:

I use Tornadus-T on my team to check non-Scarf Keldeo (as do other people). Ban Tornadus-T, how will that affect Keldeo? Something to consider. Calm Mind + 3 Attacks Keldeo (a very, VERY scary set) can be neutered by a Hurricane to the face. Without T-T, I have to reach for something else.

So if T-T goes Uber, and Keldeo stays OU.. We could be a month away from people bitching about Keldeo again...

[ala]

CM Keld has a number of checks, the most common and effective of which are the Latis. Not banning Torn-T just so Keldeo has an extra check (not counter, because Torn-T can't switch in) seems like a silly reason to me.

[X5Dragon]

All of this makes me want to go back and play PS again...it's been month's lol and I have a few accounts to embarrass myself with...eh why not.

I wonder how far will Mamoswine and Thundurus would go in stopping these two and proving my point...

Edit: I think I'm gonna revive the Dragonite's Thundrus plot RMT..

[Wizarus]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

First off, "too fast". It can still be revenge killed by Scarfers and Chlorophyll mons. You can say "too fast" for pretty much every fast threat in OU based on that. Secondly, "Hurricane is one of the best moves in OU". The same with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, etc. It does help with the weather war, but every weather abuser like Chlorophyll mons, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, and Tentacruel does that. "Plays too well for the metagame" seems almost arbitrary to me. I don't get what you mean; could you explain further? Moreover, how does Tornadus-T do these things better than the Pokemon I mentioned? I really don't see your point, with all due respect to you being a council member.

That's not true at all. No other pokemon in OU besides Jolteon and Venasaur with sun needs a Scarfer or priority to revenge kill its base form and neither of these pokemon have the coverage Tornadus-T has. If rain is up there is no risk in spamming Hurricane; it has no immunites, it's the second best attacking type in OU, it has no drawbacks, and it comes with 30% confusion. Ninetales is punished for coming in with SR, TTar doesn't want to switch into Superpower/Focus Blast at all, even Specially Defensive Hippowdon risk being 2HKO'd by both Life Orb and Specs sets, and Abomasnow isn't switching in period.

[JabbaTheGriffin*]

Originally Posted by Fat pokemon0078

First off, "too fast". It can still be revenge killed by Scarfers and Chlorophyll mons. You can say "too fast" for pretty much every fast threat in OU based on that. Secondly, "Hurricane is one of the best moves in OU". The same with Close Combat, Draco Meteor, etc. It does help with the weather war, but every weather abuser like Chlorophyll mons, Volcarona, Thundurus-T, and Tentacruel does that. "Plays too well for the metagame" seems almost arbitrary to me. I don't get what you mean; could you explain further? Moreover, how does Tornadus-T do these things better than the Pokemon I mentioned? I really don't see your point, with all due respect to you being a council member.

Stop nitpicking an argument I didn't go in depth into. There's 20 million posts in this thread about Torn-T, I decided to focus on Keldeo instead. My argument isn't the one you should be attacking. (Moreover playing too well for the metagame is pretty obvious, it just means it does its paper job consistently better than it should)

Onto the Pokemon I'm going to focus on, Keldeo. I said it plays LIKE a swift swimmer. Obviously it isn't going to be exactly the same or else it'd have been pretty much immediately banned. Yes it has to be locked into a single move. Yes that move has some resists/immunities (which are often overcome by its sheer power). Yes it requires much more prediction than a swift swimmer. But with the right support it can come in and dominate. What then separates Keldeo from any other scarfer really, say Salamence? Well I think the first factor is its speed. Salamence and most other scarfers that rely on their power for late game sweeping are much, much easier to revenge than Keldeo is. Mence is outsped by other common scarfers, Terrakion (though it doesn't hit as hard as the other power-scarfers) is weak to both mach punch and bullet punch, Latios is pursuit bait. The next is an SR resistance that allows it the chance to help itself out early game without taking too much damage. Other scarfers may be wary of coming in early and rely too much on other team members to give them the support to open up holes for them late game. Keldeo, with its coverage and power, can often do this job itself.

So yeah I guess I'm saying it's SR resistant, hits like a truck, and can clear its own way throughout the battle. I agree, things aren't banned for JUST their scarf set (Gene was 50/50 scarf/rp). But Keldeo can obviously do more than that. The specs set hits like a truck and CM can be an unexpected sweeper that I've seen plenty of people do well with. I wouldn't call it a one-trick PONY (hehehe had to)

[X5Dragon]

Keledo is no one trick pony, but it's a pony that can be outsped by the most used scarfers, has questionable coverage and isn't forcing users to include a specific counter.

[thesandman]

Hurricane still has a 70% acc outside of the rain (except in sun obviously), tornadus-t isn't even super reliant on rain

[Kidogo]

Disregard the mention of reshiram lol, we are not going to test that in OU EVER. And torny outside of rain is laughable--there's a reason focus blast is nicknamed focus miss, and hurricane has the same base acc.

IMO, no non-dragon poke should ever be considered for brokenness with a choice set. Any good team should have at least one resist to common attacking types, so a choiced attacker should never be able to sweep clean. Keldeo is too slow without a scarf and has way too many pokes that can take a hit and sooo many more hard counters than most other OU offensive threats.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat X5Dragon

Keledo is no one trick pony, but it's a pony that can be outsped by the most used scarfers, has questionable coverage and isn't forcing users to include a specific counter.

Keldeo has questionable coverage. But there are many people that seem to forget that Keldeo's sheer power (especially under rain) more than makes up for that. It doesn't matter that Keldeo is not hitting things for super-effective, or even neutral damage, because rain-boosted Hydro Pump (or even Surf) coming from this beast are usually sufficient to 2HKO/OHKO a lot of things, even those that resist it. Under rain, it has less power, of course, but the fact that it sits at a higher speed tier than most common scarfers except Terrakion (which it speed tie with) and Lati@s, and the fact that Keldeo resists Stealth Rock and Pursuit, as well as resisting Ice Shard, Bullet Punch and being neutral to Mach Punch (all of which are COMMON priority moves), means that Keldeo is either too fast or too strong to deal with. Name one offensive counter/check for this thing that is not Lati@s. You are pretty much forced to pack something like Celebi, Amoongus or Jellicent to deal with it.