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#26 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 130
Massachusetts
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What Trapinch set would you recommend? CB for pure damage? Eviolite to (hopefully) live a SP from Skuntank, sash possibly?
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#27 |
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 982
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cb probably won't live an attack from skuntank, so it's useless if you're using it to trap skuntank. i'm pretty sure max hp eviolite is the way to go since it can still ohko skuntank and has enough bulk to live an attack.
edit: 252Atk Skuntank (+Atk) Sucker Punch vs 252HP/0Def Trapinch (Neutral): 72% - 85% (213 - 252 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. cb survives but i still wouldn't rely on it since trapinch could be worn down by hazards and earthquake is a bad attack to be locked into |
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#28 |
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she's probably sexting nprtprt
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 650
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When Absol was around Trapinch needed to use Eviolite with a certain combination of HP and Defense EVs in order to live Absol's Adamant Life Orb Sucker Punch and had to use Superpower to get the guaranteed KO. With Absol gone Trapinch is more free to just go with max HP and max Attack, but without having access to Stealth Rock it doesn't really do anything outside of trapping Skuntank. Psychic/Ghost spam with Destiny Bond lures is more effective all-around as they are not dead weight with their main lure not being present and in fact just cause more devastation when it's not around as you don't have to sacrifice one of them with Destiny Bond.
With Amoonguss leaving the tier both Roselia and Tangela will attempt to takes it place on teams. Teams relying on Alomomola + Roselia get destroyed by Sawsbuck, who also lost checks in Emboar and Cinccino. Grass-types in general will be really strong this metagame and Sawsbuck and Ludicolo are looking to destroy. Regice will be fantastic in this Grass heavy metagame and punishes a lot of teams with its awesome STABs and great stats. I think Thunder Wave / Ice Beam / Thunderbolt / Focus Blast Regice will be more popular this round as it just deals very well with the metagame as a whole. Alomomola + Roselia (or Tangela) cores get destroyed by BoltBeam and Regice doesn't have to fear Sleep Powder from Roselia due to breeding issues. Piloswine attempting to check Regice gets taken down by 2 Focus Blasts and unlike the RestTalk sets isn't fighting a losing battle against Ludicolo. If Regice switches into Ludicolo as it Rain Dance Regice is bound to lose, but with Thunder Wave it can massively cripple Ludicolo and help the rest of its team take it down. Contrary to popular belief being paralyzed divides the Pokemon's Speed by 4 and not 2, meaning it's not just Swift Swim being negated. EDIT: Almost forgot the main reason why I came here. With Sawsbuck being very likely to rise in popularity I could see a big increase in Drifblim usage as well. Ghost/Flying allows Drifblim to check Sawsbuck very well and the immunity to Sawk's Close Combat is always nice.
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#29 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 102
Maryland
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I also hope Leavanny sees the light of day, because of its great Attack and Speed. Its an interesting teammate, even though it does have many weaknesses. She really has competition from Sawsbuck though, because she has three points on Sawsbuck in attack, but Saws has 3 points on her speed which can make the difference.
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#30 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 51
Sinnoh
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Well Since Amoongus left, im thinking that roselia could just make up for RU's loss of the pokeball mushroom. The only downside i can think of is the lack of regenerator x(, but natural cure is good too! It still has a sleep inducing move (Sleep powder) and very good recovery (Rest, Synthesis). Also as others predicted and i will the same Roselia may just take Garbodor's role as main defensive spiker. If i am not mistaken it can also have both types of spikes.
@ EBeast- I could see sawsbuck going up in usage, but drifblim can keep it in check. Another pokemon i have found that can check sawsbuck is Armaldo, threatning with X-Scissor (also it has utility in Stealth rocks and rapid spin)
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Lul you are reading my signature. -Volt |
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#31 |
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 397
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Something that is unfortunate, and important to note, is that sleep powder and spikes are illegal on rose together, and as a result, roselia loses out on a great niche (i don't think it would be nu if it could do both) It can still provide tspikes with sleep powder, though.
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#32 | |
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Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 75
The Land of my Fathers
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#33 |
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Man, I'm loving Substitute Pokemon right now. Cinccino was such a pain for Substitute Pokemon because it can break through and KO them. Gardevoir, Swoobat, Articuno, Drifblim, etc. are all better than ever right now.
Substitute Pokemon are awesome in tandem with Toxic Spikes Roselia (who can use Leaf Storm > Giga Drain, unlike Spikes). You can reliably set up Toxic Spikes in like ~70% of matches. It typically works against everything besides teams with Skuntank, teams with 2 Poison-types, and teams that don't really care about Toxic Spikes. Unfortunately there is no easy way to get rid of Skuntank, but other Poison-types can be taken care of SubCM Gardevoir. I suppose you could use something like Substitute / Destiny Bond / Psychic / Signal Beam if you really wanted to get rid of Skuntank but then you lose one of the best Pokemon to take advantage of Toxic Spikes. This new meta is pretty cool so far . I'm planning on using a stall team soon to take advantage of the Roselia drop and Emboar moving up. Emboar was one of the biggest stall threats, but thankfully for stall, it's gone now.
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#34 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 448
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Skuntank can be lured in by Colbur Berry Golurk and taken out. As an additional bonus, Golurk can even spinblock (but who spins away Toxic Spikes?).
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#35 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 288
Chile > Santiago
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I'm working on a stall team, too, I always loved the idea of stall your opponent to the oblivion, and with Cinccino's out, now I can use substitute without problem. For Skuntank, just sleep it, reserve your Sleep Clause for him if you're depending too much of badly poison to wear down the opponent.
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I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker). |
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#36 |
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she's probably sexting nprtprt
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 650
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Even if you put Skuntank to Sleep it doesn't stop it from absorbing Toxic Spikes every time it switches in. Due to 5th gen Sleep mechanics though you can try to take advantage of Skuntank by putting pressure on it as it attempts to burn turns of Sleep with a those set up Pokemon that DTC was talking about. With Stealth Rock up, even if the opponent plays their Skuntank conservative they'll eventually get worn down, although the process is a lengthy one.
Colbur Golurk is a cool Pokemon, but the Colbur makes Golurk more of a failsafe rather than a lure. Unless given a free switch and Golurk being weakened, Skuntank will not be switching into Golurk. Colurk became a thing a while back so with proper scouting it can be detected. Golurk's lack of Leftovers will tell the player that Golurk is either Soft Sand/Earth Plate, Choice Band, or Colbur Berry. As soon as Golurk uses Earthquake the item can be singled out by a comparison of damage output. Golurk's primary Ground-typing also ensures that Skuntank will not be lured in as an Earthquake is an easy OHKO. However, like I said Colurk is a failsafe and can turn something that would normally be threatened to take around 80% from Crunch/Sucker Punch into a good check to Skuntank.
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#37 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 448
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That's true, but there aren't much better ways to lure out Skuntank (aside from them switching into Misdreavus's Will-o-wisp for example, that's derp). Once Skuntank comes in, you're forced to play mindgames with it, and it is harder to wear down and punish than Absol. It doesn't hit as hard, but usually it hits hard enough, bad news for your Skunk lure.
By the way, the Golurk user can also attempt to conceal his item choice by starting off with Shadow Punch, which is an okay complement to Earthquake, lead off with Ice Punch if the opponent has a Normal/Flying type, or ensure Earthquake gets a clean kill. |
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#38 |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 288
Chile > Santiago
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It's still your best bet if you're not running directly offensive Pokémon, otherwise you'll need something that can do a decent Earthquake to punish those Poison Type Pokémon, like Golurk, of course, but it's still not a big trouble as long you can mantain Stealth Rock on the field, you'll eventually run out it's HP by phazing it and doing small but constant attacks on the switch-ins. Conserving the Sleep Clause for Poison Type Pokémon is the best if you're running stall with Toxic Spikes, anyway, because they tend to be the major problem absorbing your spikes.
Other decent idea is hide the Counter move between one of your stallers, Skuntank and usually the others Poison Type Pokémon doesn't tend to use special moves, so, you can take them by surprise with a simple, but pretty effective Counter, others decent ideas are burn it with Will-O-Wisp, paralize them and Subsitute or heal until full paralize shows. Alternative, you can overstall it's Sucker Punch PP with a Pressure user, or just force him to out with a super effective attack of the likes of Golurk. A stall team should already be prepared to overstall if necessary, anyway.
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I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker). Last edited by Nyara; Jan 7th, 2013 at 5:22:33 AM. |
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#39 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 448
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There is almost no reason for Skuntank to be Sucker Punching Pressure pokemon, the main exception being Offensive Articuno, but Skunk is the least of your worries. Stalling Sucker Punch pp is also very impractical and close to impossible against even a remotely skilled player, as they will catch on and do something else like Poison Jab/Crunch, Taunt you so Sucker Punch can start working, or just switch out, meaning it could very easily backfire.
Most Skuntanks I've seen are NOT going to blindly switch into a status move right away (again, this is under the assumption that the Skunk player knows what they're doing), so it's not even close to fullproof. Simply hammering/whittling away at Skuntank and taking advantage of its lack of reliable recovery is the simplest way for a stall team to bring down Skuntank, primarily because of Taunt limiting your options. Last edited by Punchshroom; Jan 7th, 2013 at 12:24:22 PM. |
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#40 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 288
Chile > Santiago
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And yes, the hard part about any Poison Type Pokémon on a Toxic Spikes team is the fact that you'll be needed to always play mind games with those Pokémon, but that doesn't change the fact if you play correctly, you can still overcome those troubles, it's true a good Skuntank user will not switch-in at whatever things, but that's where it comes the surprise factor, equip to something weak to it's attack a status move, and it will stricke hard to one of it's partner or most probably him at the end. Anyway, like you said, the best way to handle him is just keep attacking it's switch-ins, and he'll fall more soon than later, or just packing a fast Earthquake user.
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I love Caterpie, he's a so adorable little bug! ♥ (Also, sorry for my English, I'm still learning it and I'm not a native speaker). |
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#41 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 397
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frequent irc user, nu ladderer, tournament player, amchecker |
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#42 |
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she's probably sexting nprtprt
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 650
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Punchshroom, real ways to lure Skuntank would be Destiny Bond Haunter or Gardevoir. Misdreavus is not a lure at all as its most common set by a longshot is the defensive set, which always has Will-O-Wisp. Skuntank will come into Haunter or Gardevoir expecting to check it thanks to its Poison/Dark typing, decent bulk, and the knowledge of the Pokemon's most commons sets lacking Destiny Bond or as much offensive prowess. (Haunter's SubDisable and Gardevoir's Choice Scarf set come to mind) Skuntank will generally not see it coming, and you will get the surprise kill you wanted. The best part is that it doesn't require Skuntank to switch into Haunter/Gardevoir and the two can beat Skuntank one on one thanks to Destiny Bond. If Skuntank sees the DBond from Haunter or Gardevoir coming it has to take a LO Hidden Power Ground or LO Focus Blast, respectively, which is enough to wear Skuntank down for the rest of the match if Destiny Bond is played around. Even Focus Sash Encore Kadabra can play around Skuntank, but prefers to predict its switch-in and 2HKOing with Hidden Power Ground than a one-on-one confrontation. Encore means that Kadabra can lock Skuntank into Sucker Punch, giving Kadabra other chances to predict its switch in and 2HKO with HP Ground.
@CBT When I was talking about Colurk was I explaining to Punchshroom why it was more of a Skunk failsafe than a lure. While Skuntank does beat it one-on-one, Pokemon does not work in a vacuum and most of the time Golurk will be worn down enough for Skuntank to pick off the KO. Either way I agree that it's not as useful as it was when Absol was around.
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Last edited by Raseri; Jan 8th, 2013 at 8:14:01 PM. Reason: post is fine |
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#43 |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 448
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I never said Misdreavus was a good Skuntank lure, that's just bad play on the Skuntank user's part. Destiny Bond Haunter and Gardevoir (plus Drifblim) do seem good Skuntank lures though. I just dislike the fact that they have to sac themselves to bring down the skunk (after all, what's the point of taking down your counter if you die in the process?). You can pack teammates that struggle with Skuntank so they can clean up after the lure has paved the way, but should the opponent be packing ANOTHER pokemon that deals with Ghosts/Psychics/fast frail pokemon (admittedly, that's kinda rare with Absol's departure) or if the Skuntank user outpredicts you, you're already in trouble. Colurk isn't as good as it was before, but at least it can take a Sucker Punch with more than half its health to spare and EQ Skunk, plain and simple.
There's also the fact if Skuntank is at good health, your Skuntank lure STILL has to play mindgames. You Destiny Bond on the switch. You hit it hard as it Taunts you to prevent more Destiny Bonds. It's now in range for a KO, but do you want to switch out to repeat the process later or finish it off now? Skuntank's options of Pursuiting or Sucker Punching remain, just like against any other Ghost or Psychic it faces. Hell, Destiny Bond has notable flaws, such as not working against the intended target should the opponent not switch. If you decide to reveal Destiny Bond right before Skunk attacks: two things happen. A) Skunk Pursuits/Crunches and both of you die. Whoop. B) Skunk Sucker Punches/Pursuits and both survive. Following situation B, mindgames will still ensue. Do I Destiny Bond again, straight into a Taunt? Or do I attack and risk him KOing me without bringing him down? Destiny Bond lures are nice for surprise value, but should it backfire, your lure is put in the same position as every other Psychic/Ghost trappable by Skuntank. Colurk I feel is more straightforward, as a Skuntank might feel confident enough to finish a ~60% Golurk only to get brutalized. Last edited by Punchshroom; Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:36:15 PM. |
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#44 | |
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am i the only one i know?
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if you're using a skuntank lure, then you should be actually using mons that take advantage of skuntank's absence, making something like destiny bond haunter worthwhile. even if you end up trading haunter to simply significantly weaken skuntank, at least something on your team should be able to take advantage of it or you're being dumb using a skun lure on a team that doesn't need it. offensively, trading a pokemon to eliminate a key threat to the rest of your team is an amazing advantage. i'm not saying that you have to use a team of beheeyem / gardevoir / musharna / dbond haunter to ~maximize~ your skuntank lure, but you need to make the trade worthwhile. also, dbond mindgames: why are you not entertaining the possibility of switching out? dbond as tank comes in, switch out. if it sucker punches then whoopee free switch, if it pursuits then it's dead which is great for you, if it uses pjab (or crunch, plausibly) then you get a free switch-in to a resist, and if it switches out then you're racking up SR damage on it and possibly entertaining a better match-up than before. it is not that big of a prediction war as you make it out to be, and i don't understand how it can backfire unless you fuck up hard (in which case it is your fault). i built a team around weakening skuntank a little while ago (peaked #1 with it for a bit under bamboo bonus), and it carried two possible lures that had uses outside of simply luring skuntank as well as two solid checks and a specific mon that had enormous troubles with it. skuntank is easy to lure and KO because it has such a unique niche and has a lack of reliable recovery. i'm not dissing colbur golurk because that's cool and all, but beating skuntank is not as difficult as you make it out to be.
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#45 | |
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 448
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#46 | |
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am i the only one i know?
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There are other lures that don't directly involve trying to predict around Skuntank with Destiny Bond or trying to get it to revenge something like Colbur Golurk that it shouldn't be bothering with (things like HP Ground Exeggutor, which has an enormous chance to OHKO after SR damage, come to mind). Lure-based teams are probably among my favorite kinds of teams to build and play simply because they require a lot of thinking about how you plan to approach your goal.
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#47 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 232
Santa Fe, Argentina
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Exeggutor @ Life Orb / Leftovers Trait: Chlorophyll move 1: Sunny Day move 2: SolarBeam move 3: Psychic / Psyshock move 4: Nature Power EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Nature: Rash / Naive Due to Nature Power bypassing Sucker Punch, it's another great way of beating it one on one to let something else (or even Exeggutor if it's in good shape) sweep. It should be noted that Nature Power 2HKOes Skunk even with a -Atk nature (as long as it isn't using 0 Atk IVs), but I feel that, since Eggy is so weak in Special Defense, it's worth to use a neutral nature. With a Life Orb attached, it deals around 79% on average, so it can even OHKO after SR with a bit of prior damage. It's a good way of avoiding mindgames, since Pursuit won't do enough damage to Eggy if it's healthy, unless the opponent is a master of prediction and it Crunches/Poison Jabs you in the first move—assuming Skuntank switched in while Eggy set up Sunny Day. |
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#48 |
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 197
New Jersey
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I had doubts about this set, and while it will most likely work, you really don't want to use a psychic/ghost poke to specialize in taking out skuntank, as it really isn't that game changing. It is a very good poke, but it can worn down very easily with hazards and does not have a reliable form of recovery, and if it uses leftovers, it attacking power is noticeably weaker. If it's a big concern, like the previous mentioned posts, destiny bond is most likely your best bet. Plus, not having hidden power fire or the rarer sleep powder on exeggutor affects you alot more than being a good lure for one poke.
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#49 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 7
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That Exeggutor set also probably necessitates Bastiodon/Probopass/Metang/Mawile so that the person playing Skuntank won't even consider using Poison Jab.
Life Orb Exeggutor needs 48 EVs in attack with a neutral nature to guarantee the kill on Skuntank with 1 layer of Spikes + Stealth Rock. 136 with a neutral nature to guarantee the kill if Skuntank switches into Spikes + Stealth Rock while you're putting up your Sunny Day. 204 to guarantee the kill with 1 layer of Spikes/Stealth Rock. 252 with a neutral nature to guarantee the kill if Skuntank switches into 1 layer of Spikes/Stealth Rock while you fire off a Sunny Day Things to consider, although my estimates are really conservative and biased towards the lower end of the damage range bar thingie. It's interesting, but probably not feasible for most battlers. In fact, most battlers will not want to consider these things ;) |
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#50 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 322
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