np: NU Stage 8 - Who Let the Dogs Out

[Hulavuta]

If you use Giga Impact, you can't switch out the next turn.

[JirachiCelebiMew]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3472094

Celever, look harder next time...

[Starships]

i was just thinking about how to make mushy more useful (which is kind of a spin on the specs set) how does this sound??

Musharna @ Choice Specs
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- Protect
- Moonlight / Light Screen / Reflect

trick specs onto skunk and/or cacturne or another physical attacker you despise that you know is coming in or a wall or something, protect to figure out what it's using so you either switch or recover if using moonlight (or even on rapidash/braviary etc), and the fun thing is the target will most likely be forced to switch, or try attacking - but on that next turn if you lack moonlight just light screen or reflect to support your team depending on what it's weaker against! it sounds kind of gimmicky but seems like it could be interesting i guess given mushy's bulk/special attack compared to other mons and what people expect mushy to do/how they prepare for it. also i was lazy with evs so idk if they entirely fit right but w/e.

oh also you could go torment > protect so that opponent will have to switch (they might wanna struggle but hey they lose hp so their loss!!)

[LivingRhino]

Originally Posted by Fat Starships

i was just thinking about how to make mushy more useful (which is kind of a spin on the specs set) how does this sound??

Musharna @ Choice Specs
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 HP / 252 Def
Bold Nature
- Trick
- Psychic
- Protect
- Moonlight / Light Screen / Reflect

trick specs onto skunk and/or cacturne or another physical attacker you despise that you know is coming in or a wall or something, protect to figure out what it's using so you either switch or recover if using moonlight (or even on rapidash/braviary etc), and the fun thing is the target will most likely be forced to switch, or try attacking - but on that next turn if you lack moonlight just light screen or reflect to support your team depending on what it's weaker against! it sounds kind of gimmicky but seems like it could be interesting i guess given mushy's bulk/special attack compared to other mons and what people expect mushy to do/how they prepare for it. also i was lazy with evs so idk if they entirely fit right but w/e.

oh also you could go torment > protect so that opponent will have to switch (they might wanna struggle but hey they lose hp so their loss!!)

I can see how this set can be used. I'd rather use Mushy as a really bulky mon. This set also requires a lot of predicting or anything, because I don't want to trick a Cacturne or a Skuntank so it gets more SpA, and take a hit. why take the hit that way? It's a set that might work, but I can't be bothered to try it as there are better uses of mushy..

[tennisace]

Cacturne and Skuntank are actually severely crippled by Choice Specs, because for Skuntank especially it means you can't effectively trap Musharna with a combination of Pursuit, Taunt, and Sucker Punch. Protect is really meh though, that slot should be something like Thunder Wave so that if you accidentally trick something that can use Choice Specs, you can cripple it further.

[Shuckleking87]

A coverage move could be used instead of protect as well, like signal beam, so that damage can actually be done to them if you choose to. Plus it should hit fairly hard with choice specs.

[EBeast]

That Specs Musharna set looks type:weird. Specs Musharna should focus more on disrupting teams with its combination of power, bulk, and coverage rather than trying to act as support. I assume the main point of the set was to immediately dump the Specs onto something and start functioning as a normal support Musharna, but its not really making the most of what Musharna is capable of doing. A Specs set should probably look like this:


Musharna @ Choice Specs
Trait: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SAtk / 16 Spe
Modest Nature
- Psychic
- Signal Beam
- Hidden Power [Ground]
- Trick

This Musharna still takes hits decently enough and can use its newfound power to inflict a lot of damage onto unsuspecting teams. Hidden Power Ground allows Musharna to hit Skuntank, Bastiodon, Probopass, and Metang who would otherwise switch into Musharna without a problem and start wearing it down. Signal Beam hits other Psychic-type Pokemon such as Gardevoir and opposing Musharna for super effective and makes a middle weight option against Skuntank, who could possibly come into to take a Shadow Ball for its Psychic-type teammate. The 5 BP from Shadow Ball hardly makes a difference and Shadow Ball's only real advantage over Signal Beam would be the ability to hit Ghost-type Pokemon harder. Both Misdreavus and Drifblim already take large amounts of damage from Psychic and Haunter cannot take a Psychic for its life. Trick allows Musharna to disrupt special walls such as Lickilicky and Regice and make it much harder for them to be as productive in a battle.

[Chieliee]

A Flame Orb set along the lines of what Starships posted might be cool. Trick Skuntank and it becomes set-up bait

Trick/Moonlight/Psychic/Calm Mind with the normal spread will make Skuntank die slowly to his burn while you're setting up. Once Skuntank's dead, rape stuff with psychic like usual

yeah taunt is a bitch but fuck that move

[Starships]

to clarify i don't actually use this i was just randomly suggesting it as something to ~discuss~ (and i did somewhat wonder if it would be of any use at all) and discussion was had so that is pleasing.

anyway chili you'll end up being burned yourself at some point if predicted incorrectly etc so maybe heal bell > moonlight? or make sure you carry a heal bell/aromatherapy user on the side idk.

[Fizz]

One of the things I hate the most about Musharna is that in many cases it can wall most or all of an opponent's team extremely easily with a Calm Mind or two– and that in itself is aggravating to deal with– but in addition, it's extremely susceptible to crits. I just had two matches in a row in which I set up with Musharna, knowing that I walled my opponent's entire remaining team, only to be taken down by a random Ice Beam crit, followed by the same thing with choiced Braviary. That kind of thing bothers me the most, where one minute the match is absolutely in your favor, and the next your Musharna dies and the opponent's Sawk takes down the rest of your team. God, it's so awful.

What I'm getting at is that Musharna is fucking annoying to play against if you don't have Skuntank (even in many cases if you do), but not only that; it's also fucking annoying to use.

I hate it almost as much as I hate Liepard.

Sorry I keep railing on Musharna. I use it on like every team and it's on like every opponent's team so I am confronted with it a lot.

[Lolkomori]

Guys is there any hope for my buddy watchog? I know that he's not the strongest in NU but he at least deserves an analysis for pete's sake. He has a few niches that separate him from everyone else. I have been playing around with a set that only this beast can claim for his own

Watchog @Leftovers
Jolly Nature
Ability: It dont matter they all are useless for this moveset
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Speed
-Hypnosis
-Super Fang
-Confuse Ray/ Stat Boosting Move
-Baton Pass
With sleep and maybe confusion, that's (in this metagame) enough to severely limit the opponent. Baton pass ensures momentum while they are freaking out about who can take watchog out that can afford being confused. This set works with entry hazards nicely and is fun to play with. Hypnosis also has its advantages nowadays with sap sipper everything running around. I do have hope for this guy and want to hear all yallz thoughts on this "doomed badger thing". :)

[Axa]

Golbat does it better with u-turn and roost, as well as three 4x resistances.

[DragonBorn]

If rest can be used with synchronize a sleep talk set could be used to sleep the opponent while recovering hp


For mushy

[TerrickTerran]

Synchronize is burn/paralysis/poison only unfortunately.

[Starships]

However, you can use Hypnosis on Mushy, but given how slow it is (and bad accuracy of the move itself) and the fact that Thunder Wave is usually better for crippling fast threats as opposed to tempting fate on a 60% accurate move when Thunder Wave is better suited to it.

[BROStime]

Originally Posted by Fat Starships

However, you can use Hypnosis on Mushy, but given how slow it is (and bad accuracy of the move itself) and the fact that Thunder Wave is usually better for crippling fast threats as opposed to tempting fate on a 60% accurate move when Thunder Wave is better suited to it.

Thunder Wave might be the better choice on Musharna, but due to its great bulk Musharna can successfully run a set with Hypnosis. The reason why this can be viable is due too Moonlight + Calm Mind, but this also forces Mushy to run a mono attacking set, therefore something to handle dark types like Gurdurr, Golem or Sawk is highly recommended. Having dark types covered this set can easely do work late game and even cripple pokemons like Skuntank on the switch in (If it hits ofc).

[ZandgaiaX]

Tentacool needs more love :(

A basic sp. defensive set with good support-options like scald, rapid spin, toxic spikes and knock off screw up so many pokémon :D

Not to mention it doesn't 'really' need eviolite all that much, unlike something like say wartortle. I have to mention that tentacool is only good on high-defensive focused teams though, being too slow and too weak in a straight fight to do much other than support/tank.

[DragonBorn]

Tentacool is not as good as frillish though who has access to Recover an water absorb.

And as far as i know tentacool doesnt have any recovery options besides rest

But frillish is a spin blocker not a spinner so Tentacool is definitly better than wartortle

[Aasgier]

Tentacool has no recovery move outside of Rest (which is horrible on Tentacool), but it has access to Giga Drain.

[Agent Gibbs]

Originally Posted by Fat ZandgaiaX

Tentacool needs more love :(

A basic sp. defensive set with good support-options like scald, rapid spin, toxic spikes and knock off screw up so many pokémon :D

Not to mention it doesn't 'really' need eviolite all that much, unlike something like say wartortle. I have to mention that tentacool is only good on high-defensive focused teams though, being too slow and too weak in a straight fight to do much other than support/tank.

I don't get what you're saying here. Tentacool doesn't "need" Eviolite like Wartortle does? What does that mean? Tentacool isn't very bulky at all without the Eviolite. Wartortle is almost as specially bulky as Tentacool with equal investment. For example, Specs Altaria does 42.25 - 50% to specially defensive Tentacool with Draco Meteor and 43.16 - 51.24% to specially defensive Wartortle (each with Eviolite), so you're looking at about 2.4% less damage from special attacks on Tentacool's side. Meanwhile, Tentacool has hilariously bad physical bulk, and I do mean hilariously bad. Just to put this into perspective, SpD Tentacool is taking 49.29 - 58.09% from Scarf Sawk's Close Combat. SpD Wartortle, on the other hand, is taking 47.51 - 56.21% from the same attack, so Wartortle is so much bulkier on the physical side that it actually takes neutral attacks better than Tentacool takes resisted ones. Tentacool absolutely needs the Eviolite. Otherwise, it's OHKOd by even resisted physical hits like CB Sawk's Close Combat with incredible ease. Heck, without the Eviolite, even Tentacool's special bulk is a little worse than that of an Infernape with equal investment. That's not a place you want to be if you're a special tank.

Even besides bulk, Tentacool suffers every problem ever attributed to Wartortle, except it's even worse. There are three main criticisms that I've seen of Wartortle (besides that it has no recovery, which Tentacool can't claim either). First, Wartortle is often criticized because it can't damage much with a low base 65 SpA stat. Tentacool is wielding a jaw dropping base 50 SpA stat, and it doesn't even have Seismic Toss or Night Shade to compensate like Wartortle and Frillish do. Second, Wartortle is criticized for being setup bait, but at least it can use Haze to eliminate any boosts even if the opponent is behind a Substitute, and it can use Seismic Toss to break a Substitute of any Pokemon with < 404 HP. It also has Yawn as an extra utility to either force a switch or effectively get a KO due to the screwy 5th Gen sleep mechanics, provided Sub is not an isssue. Tentacool has no such way of preventing the opponent from setting up on it. Third, people often claim that Wartortle is bad because it can't beat opposing spin blockers, but at least it can use Foresight to ignore them entirely. Tentacool has no such luxury, and it gets destroyed by the #1 spin blocker in NU, Golurk. At least Wartortle can take a hit from Golurk; physically defensive Wartortle can survive CB Golurk's Earthquake even after taking damage from Stealth Rock, 3 layers of Spikes, and poison from 2 layers of Toxic Spikes.

I'm sorry, Wartortle is mediocre at best, but Tentacool is absolutely awful.

[BROStime]

Originally Posted by Fat DragonBorn

Tentacool is not as good as frillish though who has access to Recover an water absorb.

And as far as i know tentacool doesnt have any recovery options besides rest

But frillish is a spin blocker not a spinner so Tentacool is definitly better than wartortle

Tentacool has recovery options in Rain Dish, so saying that it only has Rest as a recovery move is wrong. Rain Dish is in my opinion the superior option because you only need Rain Dance for healing, but it kinda cuts Tentacools moveslot options, but also Rest does that.

When it comes to spinning Tentacool is not better than Wartortle, as Wartortle can spin on every spinblocker in this tier without even beating them at all due too Foresigth which Tentacool would kill for. Also Tentacool won't beat any spinblocker anytime soon due it's pitifull offensive stats and always losing to the most common spinblocker Golurk.

[Punchshroom]

I've always thought that Liquid Ooze is better on Tentacool, because while Wartortle is fighting a losing battle with Leech Seeders even with Rapid Spin, Tenta can somewhat turn the tables as the Leech Seeders lose health as well, and punish drainers such as the notable Ludicolo, Gurdurr and Sawsbuck (not that Sawsbuck would try to Horn Leech you, but you can surprise KO a LO variant via switching in). However, I said "somewhat" because Tenta is still losing health that it can't recover without Resting.

Tenta not only does a mediocre job at best at spinning, but it does a mediocre job at SURVIVING. Tenta's HP is so poor that the lightest of breezes will take of no less than ~10%. Tenta's best (only) niche over Wartortle is Toxic Spikes, but since Skuntank is goddamn everywhere, it's not looking too good a niche either.

[DragonBorn]

Lol this all so true but another thought has crossed my mind since were talking about NFEs

What about ivysaur?

It has better bulk than the Roselia. But lower Special attack and access to no hazard moves. But it makes up for that with Knock Off that can cripple Eviolite mons. although it doesnt have all the support moves Roselia does it does still sport better Bulk

[Punchshroom]

Roselia is chosen mainly for its Spikes (and Toxic Spikes). Since Ivysaur does not have hazards, there's no reason to choose it over Rosy. A better comparison of Ivysaur's support role is with Vileplume.

Let's compare the two in terms of supporting ability. Vileplume has greater offensive presence to the point where it can actually hit hard, can carry a passive healing item (Leftovers or Black Sludge), AROMATHERAPY, an ability (Effect Spore) that coincides well with its role, and not be complete dead weight upon the loss of its item.

Ivysaur can wield Eviolite and has Knock Off. That's pretty much it, as that higher base speed doesn't help if the likes of Alomomola still outspeeds it. I don't even consider Eviolite to be a supreme advantage as you lose passive healing, so Knock Off is all Ivysaur has over Vileplume.

Let's see now, what do I want: AROMATHERAPY or Knock Off, which Tangela also gets (I know they wall different things, but still). Yeah, no contest here.

[Agent Gibbs]

As someone who loves to try out random gimmicks, I actually had given Eviolite Ivysaur a try a little after Amoonguss left. The set I used was generally Sleep Powder / Giga Drain / Synthesis / filler, with the last slot being Hidden Power or Sludge Bomb, depending on what I was testing at the moment. The EV spread I tried was 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 SpD with a Calm nature, which gave me enough physical bulk to always survive CB Sawk's Close Combat after Stealth Rock, and the rest was piled into special bulk. It's actually pretty darn bulky with the Eviolite, having approximately the equivalent defenses of an unboosted Pokemon with 60 / 115 / 134 defenses and equal investment. Just to compare this to Vileplume's bulk, let's say you have a Vileplume designed to hit that same defensive benchmark (surviving a 2HKO from CB Sawk's CC after Rocks) with the rest used to bolster special bulk. This spread would be 252 HP / 144 Def / 112 SpD with a Bold nature. To compare the special bulk of these two, Vileplume is taking 65.25 - 77.11% from Timid LO Samurott's Ice Beam, while Ivysaur is taking just 49.07 - 57.71%. This goes to show that Eviolite Ivysaur does have a great bulk advantage. It also didn't miss the Leftovers all that much since it had Synthesis, which was a neat asset.

However, I ended up switching back to Vileplume anyway for a couple of reasons. For one, Ivysaur's lower SpA stat was bit disappointing at times. Ivysaur's maximum damage rolls tend to be equal to or less than Vileplume's minimums, which kinda hurt when trying to take on Water types and such. The extra bulk turned out to not be all that helpful either. Vileplume could still hit those important physical bulk benchmarks (which are more important, in my opinion), and even with all that extra special bulk, Ivysaur is still usually 2HKOd by LO Samurott's Ice Beam and always OHKOd by +2 LO Gorebyss's Ice Beam. In the case that either one is still going to be 2HKOd, I'd rather be able to do more damage back and heal a bit with Leftovers. As Punchshroom mentioned, there's also Aromatherapy to take into account, which is a pretty good utility to have. Vileplume is one of the few Pokemon in NU to learn it, and many of the others that do are either mediocre in the NU metagame or have little room for it.

Overall, I'd say that Ivysaur isn't all that bad, but Vileplume generally overshadows it.