(Discussion) Forewarn

[Dogfish44]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused.

Forewarn

Whilst Illuminate was caught instantly, Forewarn remains as an accuracy lowering ability. There have been a lot of replacements suggested, but it seems a consensus is hard to reach.

Here's the current Forewarn, just for reference:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and has a percentage (%) chance to evade equal to one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power. This percentage chance (%) is applied to the attacking move's base accuracy.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Here are some solutions proposed:

Evasive Forewarn:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokemon (The Dodge rate is still capped at 50%). When this Pokemon uses Evasive Agility or Evasive Teleport, this Pokemon will also evade moves that can target more than one Pokemon in addition to its current evasive properties.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Grazing Forewarn:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, Evasive Agility, or Evasive Teleport, if this Pokemon takes damage while using either command, then the final damage inflicted to this Pokemon is halved (×0.5).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Anticipation-Clone Forewarn:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and if hit by either move, then the BAP of that move is reduced by two (2).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

This discussion should focus on the merits and flaws of both the current ability, and all proposed. Additional proposals are also encouraged. Due to the fact that it features in two proposed abilities, please do not derail this thread to personal opinions and debate about the dodge command - this is, of course, not to say that discussion of dodge regarding the power of the ability is prohibited.

[Matezoide]

I feel Evasive Forewarn is the best option.

As previously stated, an Anticipation clone would be rather.....boring (Cant think of a better word). And i do not like Grazing Forewarn.

Evasive Forewarn is nice because it makes Dodge more usefull and gives a very interesting side-effect to Evasive-Moves, i feel it makes the most sense out of the options and would make it very......unique.

Just my two cents.

[Gerard]

Both Evasive and Grazing forms are bad in their current form.

Using an Evasive move is probably one of the worst uses for Forewarn, all because, You're only using and Evasive move. You're NOT doing damage with the move, you're not inflicting status, you're not even boosting yourself in any way. You're only reacting to whatever the opponent sends. Best Case Scenario case you both lose ONLY one action. Neither one of you gains anything of that turn outside of whatever status effect either one of you have, and considering neither of the four fully evolved pokemon with Forewarn posseses a big deal of (The best one is Necturna with Toxic AND WoW, no Leech Seed) and all of them are vulnerable to the same damage means the change does nothing of help.

All this without entering how easy is to go around Evasive moves, one "If X uses succesfully and Evasive or Protective move then..." is all you need to make sure the ability is virtually useless, and even if they miss it, you're not doing ANY DAMAGE, as unlike Damaging Evasive move you're not doing damage and now you can't even combine Agility/Teleport without orfeiting it's evasive abilities, so you're again, only losing your turn going second.

Also, I've been hearing a lot of making 3HKOs into 4HKOs, does it matter? what does it matter if we even make it into 6HKOs when all those turns you "gain" are turns you're using evading the attack, not doing any real damage and instead, only stalling them. That turn you gain, is one Hypno or Jynx used Teleport, which means, beast case they neither dealt nor received any damage, any other case they now have less HP that what they started the action and they couldn't even damage their foe.

Now this is with respect of the Evasive Forewarn, though Grazing is even worst for the record because you're actually damaged by suff such as EQ, Rock Slide, Heat Wave, etc... AND again you didn't damaged your opponent at all.

When going first this is not even good for subbing, after reading it I actually though about using it for class subbing, but after thinking it better, you're either gonna use more energy that your oponent for an attack that isn't worth it (evading a low energy move for 7 energy) or giving your opponent a shot at abusing it by making sure you use a non damaging teleport while he manages to do some damage to you (this is specially bad with grazing forewarn)

And then it's Dodge. About dodge... I really thing most people don't know how does it work so here it is:

Originally Posted by Fat DAT

Dodge: The Pokemon uses its innate speed and evasiveness to dodge an opponent's attack, reducing an incoming attack’s base accuracy (ie, before accuracy/evasion stage) by a flat percentage produced by the Dodge formula below. The Pokemon's Size Class determines its Base Dodge: 40, 20, 10, 5, 2.5, 1 and 0 for Size Classes 1 through 7 respectively. If a move's accuracy would be increased by the Dodge command, the Dodge command instead simply fails and the move has normal accuracy. Dodge can evade any attack except for attacks that do not have an accuracy check (this includes Thunder in Rain and Blizzard in Hail) or are influenced by Lagging Tail, Lock-On, No Guard, Mind Reader, or Telekinesis. This command fails if used consecutively, or after Protect, Detect, Agility (Evasive), or Teleport (Evasive).

In normal conditions, the formula is Base Dodge + ((User's Speed - Opponent's Speed) / 5) + (Accuracy boost from user's +Spe Nature OR -10 if -Spe Nature)

In Trick Room, the formula is Base Dodge + ((Opponent's Speed - User's Speed) / 5) - (Accuracy boost from a +Spe Nature OR +10 if -Spe Nature)

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 4 | CT: None

As you see, all mons wit Forewarn have a Base Dogde of 10 (Necturna, Jynx and Hypno) or 20 (Musharna) and outside of Trick Room her's is going to be either really low or fail altogether. Ask yourselves when was the last time a pokemon with an average speed and Size 3 (fastest mon is +Spe Jynx with 110) managed to succesully dodge against something that wasn't called magcargo. It's a weak desperate attempt to avoid something what almost never works, and even at it's best it Caps at 50%. I actually find quite funny how people are complaining so much about hax yet are perfecty fine in giving an ability that is as reliable as a coin toss at it's best (For the record all pokemon involved have both confuse ray and double team, so dodge is NEVER going to be used outside of incredibly desperate attempts were it will likely, not pull it's weight). In short: Dodge Sucks

There are a couple of good points, those being able to sub against Rock Slide and Heat Wave, but the fact that you still only stall the action instead of doing anything else more useful means the ability is of little use and imo an effect of people going for an even bigger nerf that needed (Just like when dealing with Illuminate)

[Objection]

You're right. Dodge does suck. Which is why both Evasive Forewarn and Grazing Forewarn also affect Evasive Agility and Evasive Teleport.

Still, the flavour behind Forewarn is generally that you are alerted to your opponent's attacks. People wanted a different Forewarn to the current one and making an ability reduce damage from incoming attacks has been done to death already. If you have a better idea that maintains that alertness flavour while not simply giving passive evasion of any sort or reducing damage or allowing a pokemon to evade and attack at the same time, feel free to suggest it. I personally will not vote for any version of Forewarn that gives passive evasion, reduces incoming damage or allows the pokemon to evade and attack at the same time, simply because damage reduction is lame and being able to evade and attack at the same time should be limited to the damaging evasive moves with their high energy costs.

[Pwnemon]

by gerard's logic i should never buy my mons agility because clearly it's useless?

[Dogfish44]

Gerard, Evasive and Grazing both make Dodge very powerful. Evasive makes it as close to reliable as you get for an evasive move that costs 5 EN, has +4 prio and is outside the usual substitution clauses. Grazing guarantees using dodge will half an incoming moves damage minimum - maybe less useful in singles, but with the way people order in doubles and triples that could easily save your 'mon from a KO, letting a partner do something else.

You aren't restricted to these options of course - suggest an alternative and fight for it on it's merits. If you garner enough support, council will put it on the council voting slate, and if the case is compelling enough the ability will be chosen.

In fact, I'm in a good mood. if you're suggesting an alternative, use this format:

[box][b]Forewarn:[/b]

Type: ###

<DESCRIPTION>

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.[/box]

And here is a serious example - a variation on evasive forewarn:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

The Pokémon has a knack for evasion, and finds it easier to do so. Teleport [Evasive], Agility [Evasive] and Dodge each cost three (3) less energy to use. This Pokémon's Dodge has no cap on maximum dodge rate.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

The Pokemon is more evasive and constantly has a nice effect i the background - your various dodge commands are now cheap enough to assist in energy stalling, plus you can potentially get 100% dodge rate.

[Objection]

Actually, another thing I recall being suggested once was Forewarn allowing the pokemon to have an extra substitution against the opponent's most powerful moves or something like that. I'm not sure how one would go about determining which moves count as powerful enough to sub against, but still ...

[Gerard]

EDIT: This was a (sarcastic) answer to pwnemon. Since his post has been erased it you may discard it.

Some alternatives I've been thinking so feel free to give some feedback:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective attacks, and as such is able to avoid the super-effective move with the highest BP in an opponent's movepool and all combination involving those. (If two or more attacks are tied then al of them are used)

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

This scentially means that you're only immune to the highest SE attack at your opponent's dissposal, going with the first Forewarn, now you're never going to be hit by let's say Fire Blast, but now you're completely vulnerable to Flamethrower, thus making it easier to sub against and giving you at least a bit of protection against high powered attacks. Though this can still backfire as you can be immune to Overheat but vulnerable to Fire Blast, Sheer Cold doesn't concern you, but Blizzard is still there, or Immune to Foul Play while Crunch and Night Daze are better options.

Though more often that not you at least will manage to cut some coverage, providing you with a little space to move, you aren't likely to eliminate all of the SE coverage considering the amount of mons with Foul Play or an Ice/Fire/Rock Coverage move

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the field for the opponents attacks, and as such is able to avoid all attacks that target more that one pokemon

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

This works more as a reverse Telepathy, you're immune to all spread moves fired by your opponent, but not by those of your own partner, this is following the Evasive Forewarn option, but by making it a passive ability and thus not being forced to use Telepathy (and so be forced to do nothing for that action) in order to use it

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

As one move is obviousy equivalent to a whole ability (specially one that is pretty much the only useful in mons such as Musharna and Hypno have)

Where are you getting this idea that moves and abilities are in any way equivalent to each other? There's no move that does what Anticipation or Iron Fist or Sap Sipper does, and there's no ability with the same effect as Aqua Ring or Quick Guard or Bide. Yes, there are some abilities and moves with the same effects, like Levitate and Magnet Rise, but some moves have effects stronger than almost all abilities and some moves have effects weaker than almost all abilities.

Anyway, your first Forewarn idea might have been good, right up until you make the ref do more work than should be necessary. Working out a pokemon's most powerful move when it has upwards of 50 moves is going to take time, and that's before you try to work out which is more powerful out of Head Smash and Rock Wrecker (y'know, for Jynx).

Your second one, on the other hand, essentially makes them impossible to hit when they use Evasive Agility and Evasive Teleport. Look, there's a reason why Protect and Detect's energy costs scale with damage - because they'd be broken as hell otherwise. Your second Forewarn proposal turns Evasive Agility and Evasive Teleport into that broken Protect and Detect.

Also, like I said earlier, I'm not supporting anything that merely reduces damage and immunity is the same as reducing damage to 0, so ...

[Dogfish44]

Other fun fact: Putting up ideas means I am allowed to actually see what you're up to ^_^

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

As one move is obviousy equivalent to a whole ability (specially one that is pretty much the only useful in mons such as Musharna and Hypno have)

some alternatives I've been thinking so feel free to give some feedback:

Don't know what you're going on about here, I recommend a decent grammar/spelling checker.

Forewarn One

The phrase "Too much effort" is ringing here. With ASB's access to an incredible array of moves, it's not only hard to define most powerful, but that's variable even within a battle. Rock Wrecker or Head Smash? That depends on whether or not you've flung that Float Stone, or not just been tricked an Iron Ball. A ref should not have to pre-calculate things, that is quite frankly asinine.

This scentially means that you're only immune to the highest SE attack at your opponent's dissposal, going with the first Forewarn, now you're never going to be hit by let's say Fire Blast, but now you're completely vulnerable to Flamethrower, thus making it easier to sub against and giving you at least a bit of protection against high powered attacks. Though this can still backfire as you can be immune to Overheat but vulnerable to Fire Blast, Sheer Cold doesn't concern you, but Blizzard is still there, or Immune to Foul Play while Crunch and Night Daze are better options.

Protection against high powered attacks? How about combos. And substitution is bloody easy - use a "Damaging X-Type move" clause.

Though more often that not you at least will manage to cut some coverage, providing you with a little space to move, you aren't likely to eliminate all of the SE coverage considering the amount of mons with Foul Play or an Ice/Fire/Rock Coverage move

Considering that most mons have a very similar array of coverage moves all featuring the exact same BAP of 8 or 10, you're trying to play down how surprisingly broken this is.

Forewarn 2

You know, at a first glance this almost looks non-broken. Then you consider how much power that gives...

• Immunity to any spread attack regardless of format.
• Cuts out your most powerful attacks from many Pokemon.
• Immunity to Perish Song. Which. Is. Broken.

In addition, not only does it make no sense you can only dodge the spread attacks and not normal ones (Well, not automatically). Of course, it does have the unique effect of preventing you from ever managing to use...

• Safeguard
• Light Screen
• Reflect
• Skill Swap [Yes, it can form multiple links with multiple targets]
• Lucky Chant
• Heal Bell

I'm giving you benefit of the doubt, as well, that you aren't attempting to break Jynx, who oh so happens to be hit by nearly every spread move SE, and you weren't intentionally removing coverage from a variety of Pokemon.

This works more as a reverse Telepathy, you're immune to all spread moves fired by your opponent, but not by those of your own partner, this is following the Evasive Forewarn option, but by making it a passive ability and thus not being forced to use Telepathy (and so be forced to do nothing for that action) in order to use it

Actually by your wording, it blocks all spread moves. Ad, as I think I've shown, that's not a fucking passive ability, that's flaming broken.

[Elevator Music]

Maybe we could tone it down then? Am I talking about the posts or the proposals, not really sure..?

Regardless, I actually really like the first Forewarn Gerard proposed. I don't think it's too much effort, and I don't the the effect is too strong or too weak. Really, I find it a bit silly that "too much effort" is the big criticism for it, when many things in ASB are far more annoying effortwise (rolling multi-hit moves (and their crit rolls), Moody, half the proposed ref payouts, Download in doubles+, just to name a few off the top of my head). In any case, I think maybe a more suitable response than just shutting the proposal down would be to tweak it to disregard moves with variable base power if it really bugs people that much...

[AOPSUser]

It may be just me, but I like the Anticipation-clone version.

The reason is that it lowers the BAP of certain moves. Explosion and Selfdesctruct: hooray? But then there's super-effective moves, and OHKO moves. In this regard, it becomes a superior version of Solid Rock and Filter, and a lot of us know how hard Carracosta is to break---and it merely has Solid Rock!

Anyways, those are just my two cents on this.

[Engineer Pikachu]

Gerard's first proposal actually makes some sense and actually makes an effort to relate it to its in-game effect, although it's probably a little too good as it stands; I'd bet that the majority of the time the highest BP move of a Pokemon is 12 and there are something to the tune of 25-30 moves with that BP. Considering that the super effective moves are going to be the ones you're going to use (and there's nothing with 11 BP) it's really close to the Anticipation one except you cut off coverage further from Pokemon with only the 12 BP move and not any other strong move of the type. I do like it, though, so maybe a less powerful version could work well?

At AOPS above me: what I'm getting from your post is that you like the Anticipation clone because it's stronger than Solid Rock ?_?

[Its_A_Random]

Gerard, Jynx & Necturna are strong enough as is without Forewarn. Why make them more broke?

Anyhow, looking at proposed stuff:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

The Pokémon has a knack for evasion, and finds it easier to do so. Teleport [Evasive], Agility [Evasive] and Dodge each cost three (3) less energy to use. This Pokémon's Dodge has no cap on maximum dodge rate.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Fair enough. Though apart from maybe Smoochum, neither Pokémon can really hit the 50% cap we currently have. Perhaps integrate it into the current Evasive Forewarn suggested in the OP? Something like:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokémon. This Pokémon's Dodge has no cap on maximum dodge rate. When this Pokemon uses Evasive Agility or Evasive Teleport, this Pokemon will also evade moves that can target more than one Pokemon in addition to its current evasive properties. Evasive Agility, Evasive Teleport, and Dodge each cost three (3) less energy to use.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Thoughts? Perhaps a tad bit too powerful, but w/e.

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective attacks, and as such, is able to avoid the super effective move with the highest BAP in an opponent's movepool, and all combinations involving said move. If two or more super effective attacks have the same highest BAP, then all of them are used.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

On the right track, but it still needs more work. My major gripe is that it avoids only super-effective moves, which is not consistent with in-game. Anticipation tells you about SE Moves/Explosion. Forewarn tells you what the highest BAP move is. Get rid of the Super Effective part, imo. And yes, I realise Explosion is a thing, but we are aiming to fix Forewarn, not re-break it.

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon has the ability to sense the field for the opponents attacks, and as such, able to avoid all attacks that target more than one Pokémon.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

No.

[ZhengTann]

So what I got from Gerard's posts are:

Originally Posted by Fat Psyquic Gerard

Even with Grazing and Evasive Forewarn boosts as per state in OP, Forewarn mons still suck because evasion is nothing but passive stalling that doesn't provide advantage.

Quite frankly, I can see the merits, but I refuse to admit it's absolute. Yes, given the movepools of Forewarn mons, evasion does not make for a viable strategy (in fact, defense is seldom a good strategy in ASB imo) but do we have to go through the roof in this?

On another note, I would like to propose changes to Evasive Forewarn in OP, based on some ideas posted by dogfish and IAR.

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokémon. This Pokémon's Dodge has no cap on maximum dodge rate. When this Pokemon uses Evasive Agility or Evasive Teleport, this Pokemon will also evade moves that can target more than one Pokemon in addition to its current evasive properties.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Basically its just IAR's proposal (see above) without the reduced Energy cost for evasive moves, so yeah. Dodge boost gives the likes of neutral Necturna 35% base rate of evading a large portion of moves, plus a lot of extra from, say, paralysis tactics, since there's no dodge cap for them.

So I'm positive that we do not like passive evasion (hence Illuminate and now this), and in-catridge Forewarn gives warning about highest BAP moves. Therefore, I'm going to support 3 things: A really Forewarning stuff (see [box] below), Grazing, then Evasion.

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon has the ability to sense the opponents most powerful attacks, and as such, is able to avoid all damaging moves (including combos) with BAP higher than or equal to 13.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

What this basically mean is:

• Most moves (Fire Blast, Blizzard, etc.) are still usable.
• No Helping Hand, or combos, or Toxic Venoshocks, or super-Brine.
• You can still work around the BAP thing with RP.

Forewarn users get more breathing room, still takes a hefty when aimed with regular-powered SE coverage, and generally gains immunity from uber direct attacks. Obj might say immunity is a form of passive evasion, but I think it is not broken - in the long run Forewarn mons still can be brought low simply by planning ahead, using common SE coverage moves, and keeping the momentum.

On a final note: I don't think we have to make every single goddamn move and ability competitively viable in ASB. Flamethrower will always be the superior choice to Ember, Close Combat will always be inferior to Drain Punch in ASB, etc. etc. because they are already inherently different. We should aim for allowing broken stuff to be reused - we don't have to fix the stuff and yet make sure it's top-tier to the point of almost borderline broken.

[Gerard]

Originally Posted by Fat IAR

On the right track, but it still needs more work. My major gripe is that it avoids only super-effective moves, which is not consistent with in-game. Anticipation tells you about SE Moves/Explosion. Forewarn tells you what the highest BAP move is. Get rid of the Super Effective part, imo. And yes, I realise Explosion is a thing, but we are aiming to fix Forewarn, not re-break it

My main grip isn't Explosion but Giga Impact and Hyper Beam (which every mon gets)

Objection: I don't see how you can say my second proposal would make Teleport/Agility broken when evasive forewarn does the same thing when using them

Dogfish: You would be immune to the opponents one (admittedly I didn't tough about Perish Song, but I don't see how it matters considering you would be immune to only the opponent ones and not your own) so you would be immune to their EQ and not your friend, also I was thinking in doubles, but idk if it would work in singles (though it could make an interesting use for double team)

[Objection]

Originally Posted by Fat Gerard

Objection: I don't see how you can say my second proposal would make Teleport/Agility broken when evasive forewarn does the same thing when using them

Notice how, until this post, I have not expressed support for any version of Forewarn put forward thus far, including those in the OP.

Look, everyone, we've got plenty of abilities that grant passive resistance/immunity to certain kinds of moves: Sturdy, Solid Rock, Magma Armor, Anticipation, Flash Fire, Levitate, Volt Absorb, Lightningrod, Motor Drive, Storm Drain, Water Absorb ... I would really prefer if we did something different with Forewarn. Also, I among others am not a fan of passive evasion because of what happened during old Illuminate. And yes, I'm aware that current Forewarn's passive evasion only applies to super effective moves. This means you either have to resort to neutral moves (which effectively makes the Forewarn pokemon "immune" to super effective moves) or pray that the RNG doesn't fuck you over.

With that said, I would like to put forward a different angle for Forewarn, which I call Substitution Forewarn:

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokémon is more adept than usual at sensing and reacting to the opponent's attacks. As a result, it gets a bonus move substitution that must have a condition in the format "If Pokémon X uses move Y", with no further qualifiers or additional clauses allowed. This bonus substitution may go anywhere in the list of substitutions the pokemon makes, but it must be indicated with "Bonus" or "Bonus Sub" or something similar in front of the bonus substitution.

Pokémon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

This fits with the alertness theme and provides a unique benefit that is useful (how many times have people wished they could have one more substitution, especially against pokemon with large movepools?) but shouldn't be too powerful. If this does seem too powerful, I can limit it further by saying that move Y has to be a damaging move.

Other than this, Dogfish44's Forewarn, a combination of Dogfish44's Forewarn and Evasive Forewarn that drops the part where Agilidodge and Teledodge avoid spread moves, and Grazing Forewarn are the only ones I would consider voting for. Come on, you guys! This is ASB! We have so many different mechanics to play with, more than what in-game has! Quit falling back on the same old stuff!

[Dogfish44]

I actually really like the Substitution Move as is...once we clarify one thing - Where does this go on substitution priority? Can you clarify that the bonus sub takes priority, can you do that at all?

[Objection]

I would think that the bonus substitution could go anywhere in the substitution order, but if that's the case, I should probably make it mandatory to indicate which substitution is the bonus one. Editing ...

[Yarnus of Bethany]

I also want to give my support for Objection's proposal because it's original, balanced, and still useful. Most of the other ones seem either too powerful (sorry, gerard) or just too boring.

[Matezoide]

I like Objection's idea. :D

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat Matezoide

I like Objection's idea. :D

[Pwnemon]

Since atheno and i were the ones who came up with obj's proposal it's obvious i'd support it

[TIO]

Originally Posted by Fat Matezoide

I like Objection's idea. :D

So do I!

[Its_A_Random]

Hi, please do not post just to show support of another proposal, i.e. posting to bandwagon. Thank you.

That said, I might as well get a slate ready for what we have so far.

Current Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and has a percentage (%) chance to evade equal to one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power. This percentage chance (%) is applied to the attacking move's base accuracy.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Evasive Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, the Evasion rate of Dodge is increased by a percentage (%) of one (1) plus (+) double (×2) the move's base attack power used by the opposing Pokemon targeting this Pokémon. This Pokemon's Dodge has no cap on maximum dodge rate. Evasive Agility, Evasive Teleport, and Dodge each cost three (3) less energy to use.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Grazing Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents attacks, and tend to be more evasive in nature. When this Pokemon uses the Dodge command, Evasive Agility, or Evasive Teleport, if this Pokemon takes damage while using either command, then the final damage inflicted to this Pokemon is halved (×0.5).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Anticipation-Clone Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective, OHKO, and explosive attacks, and if hit by either move, then the BAP of that move is reduced by two (2).

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Passive Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon has the ability to sense the opponents super-effective attacks, and as such, is able to avoid the super effective move with the highest BAP in an opponent's movepool, and all combinations involving said move. If two or more super effective attacks have the same highest BAP, then all of them are used.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

Substitution Forewarn

Forewarn:

Type: Innate

This Pokemon is more adept than usual at sensing and reacting to the opponent's attacks. As a result, it gets a bonus move substitution that must have a condition in the format "If Pokemon X uses move Y", with no further qualifiers or additional clauses allowed. This bonus substitution may go anywhere in the list of substitutions the pokemon makes, but it must be indicated with "Bonus" or "Bonus Sub" or something similar in front of the bonus substitution.

Pokemon with this ability: Drowzee, Hypno, Jynx, Smoochum, Munna, Musharna, Necturna.

If anyone has anything else to say, like ideas or arguments, do so now. Otherwise, this will most likely be the slate that the council will vote on.