Snover (QC 3/3)

cim · Dec 3rd, 2012, 1:28:12 PM

I'll write this over the next day or so

[Overview]
Snover is the only legal Pokemon that can summon permanent weather in Underused, making him a mandatory member of a hail team. Unfortunately, Snover is a pretty terrible Pokemon, with not a single stat higher than Base 62. It's quite challenging to make Snover into a useful threat on a hail team. At least with its decent Grass / Ice typing and Eviolite, it can carve a small niche for itself as a Bulky Water check that can set up weather on these threats with relative impunity. However, Snover will always be limited by the relative weakness of his attacks as well as his vulnerability to Stealth Rock and super-effective attacks.

[SET]
name: Hail Support
move 1: Leech Seed
move 2: Blizzard
move 3: Protect / Substitute
move 4: Giga Drain / Substitute
item: Eviolite
ability: Snow Warning
nature: Modest
evs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
This set is Snover's best chance at doing something once it has set up Hail. With this spread and Eviolite, Snover has 323 HP and 235 Special Defense, which gives it enough bulk to set up on the metagame's bulky water types such as Swampert, Blastoise, Suicune, and Milotic. With the given Special Attack, Snover has enough power to check a variety of Pokemon - for example, Raikou is 2HKOed by Blizzard, and without Aura Sphere it can't do too much back. Most of Snover's job is done once Snow Warning has activated, but this set aims to accomplish as much as it can while it's in play.

Leech Seed is a good support move in general and something that sets Snover apart from other members of a Hail team. Blizzard is the obligatory STAB attack, which, due to its high Base Power, does decent damage despite coming from a mere 245 Special Attack stat. The last two moves Snover runs depends on whether or not you want to take out Water types directly, what kind of attacks you want to scout, and personal preference. Protect buys a turn of Leech Seed recovery and allows you to scout for Choice attackers. Substitute won't help much for scouting unless used on a predicted switch, but Snover is a decent executor of the SubSeed strategy, sapping HP with both Leech Seed and Hail damage. Most bulky waters cannot break the Substitute in one hit, allowing Snover to stall them out. Giga Drain allows you to directly combat Bulky Waters, sometimes OHKOing Swampert and sometimes 2HKOing Blastoise, while also healing Snover a little bit.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
The EVs are carefully optimized to ensure Snover has the potential to do something before it dies. 248 HP and 8 Special Defense ensures that Suicune, Blastoise, and Milotic cannot break a Snover Substitute with their 0 SpA Ice Beams. Special Attack is maximized as its the only real way that Snover can hit things, and extra defensive investment doesn't go far enough to offset the difference in power. One can choose to reallocate HP EVs to Speed in order to outrun Relaxed or Impish Swampert - you need 96 and 164 Speed EVs respectively to accomplish this. Outrunning Swampert lets you KO it with Giga Drain before it can set up Stealth Rock, but your bulk takes a notable hit for a very specific situation. Special Defense investment is also possible, but you really need all of the Special Attack investment in order to do anything.

(more coming)

Max Special Attack gives Snover his best chance of accomplishing something.
EVs ensure that Suicune / Blastoise / Milotic never break its Substitute with 0 SpA Ice Beam
Speed investment for Relaxed / Impish Swampert (96 / 164) can come out of HP, letting you KO lead Swampert before it can set up Stealth Rock, but your bulk takes a notable hit.
Special Defense is possible to invest in, but Snover becomes even more useless that way.
Snover should only be used on teams that take advantage of Hail, and its partners should be picked carefully.
Offensively, good spammers of Blizzard include Rotom-F, Jynx, Sheer Force Nidoking / Nidoqueen, and Froslass.
Defensively, a hail team can take advantage of Ice Body Walrein to stall opponents to death.
Both styles of play benefit from entry hazards from Spikes Froslass
Either style of team needs adequate coverage of Fire, Fighting, and Rock type attacks. Nidoqueen can handle both of the latter, while Pokemon like Porygon2, Snorlax, and Arcanine can all handle Fire attacks.

[Other Options]
Snover doesn't really have much else it can do. A Choice Band set is perhaps the most interesting option. Snover has access to Wood Hammer and Ice Shard, which give it much needed power and priority, but it is still easily walled and losing Eviolite makes Snover much harder to use effectively. Other than that, Shadow Ball is an option to attempt to beat Froslass before it sets up on your team... and that's about it.

[Checks and Counters]

In terms of what Snover aims to do (set up permanent hail) it has no "true" counters - nothing else sets up permanent weather in UU.
Setting up Rain Dance or Sunny Day will end Hail until Snover comes back into play. Tornadus is the most common Rain Dancer in UU, but it is weak to Ice.
Bronzong is perhaps the perfect counter - can set up weather, resists both STAB attacks, and hits back with a STAB SE Steel attack.
Snorlax works similarly, but Leech Seed and Giga Drain put a bit of a dent into it.
Specially Defensive Rhyperior, if it's faster, can check even Substitute Snover with Rock Blast.
Snover hates Super-Effective hits, especially from the physical side, so once you bring in any reasonably strong Pokemon on Snover, it's done for.
Setting up Stealth Rock is important if you aim to wear down Snover as it constantly comes in to replenish its weather type.

outline

...

Maci12 · Dec 4th, 2012, 11:35:08 AM

A Snover set that I used successfully on several teams is a speedier, more annoying take on the Hail Support set:

@ Leftovers
Trait: Snow Warning
Nature: Timid
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Blizzard

This set is obviously super odd looking, but I've found that it can be way more useful for my teams than the standard Eviolite sets. Even with Eviolite, Snover isn't going to be winning any Defensive awards, though certainly it does increase its bulk significantly. This set capitalizes on annoying your opponent. Minimum HP is used so that Leech Seed heals Snover for upwards of 18% against most enemies, meaning that between Substitute, Protect, and Leftovers, Snover will be healing more health than it is losing via using Substitute. Protect also makes Snover an interesting lead as it can scout out the sets of an opposing pokemon. If Victini uses V-Create, its generally a good bet that you are facing a Physical Victini and if Arcanine doesn't have leftovers, you know its an offensively based Arcanine. There are many more examples of its effectiveness as a Scout. Maximum Speed allows Snover to get the jump on Swampert, Bronzong, Blastoise, and everything with no speed investment under 80 Base Speed. This allows it to take out these pokemon one on one, as the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Leech Seed eventually stalls them to death or to very low health. Bronzong, something that plagues other sets, can be checked. Imagine the following scenario:

Turn 1
Snover uses Leech Seed
Bronzong uses Stealth Rock (predicting your switch because of the unfavorable match up)

Turn 2
Snover uses Substitute (its best to substitute in case they switch immediately, as you can then set up on the switch in)
Bronzong uses Gyro Ball

From there you can either Protect or Substitute to your heart's content. I'm not suggesting that Snover is a check to Bronzong midgame, just that it has more of an advantage over Bronzong than does the set already outlined. Snover has a great advantage over grass switch ins if it is behind a sub, because unlike other subseeder's, Snover can answer their switch with a super effective Blizzard.

Obviously this set has its downfalls, but I'd recommend trying it out before immediately rejecting it. This Snover isn't just a throw away spot; it can be used as a rather effective annoyer throughout the match. Having tested both sets thoroughly, I can say with confidence that I much prefer using this set and find it very viable.

Lee · Dec 4th, 2012, 12:07:30 PM

Quote:

Maximum Speed allows Snover to get the jump on Swampert, Bronzong, Blastoise, and everything with no speed investment under 80 Base Speed.

you don't need to be faster than Blastoise or Swampert to Sub-Seed them as you can just tank the initial hit and throw up a late Sub - in Bronzong's case you outrun him anyway without the added burden of taking fatal damage from Gyro Ball due to the heavy speed investment. maybe i'd shoot to outrun Machamp but anything more seems excessive

**Pocket** · Dec 4th, 2012, 1:01:57 PM

Well being faster than the defensive Swampert is nice to kill it before it can set up Rocks, which plagues Hail Teams. Being faster than Blastoise is unnecessary, though.

Maci12 · Dec 4th, 2012, 1:27:19 PM

Both can use Toxic and that drastically cuts out Snover's bulk as a subseeder. Other than Toxic they can't really touch it so outspeeding them is a nice benchmark.

cim · Dec 4th, 2012, 2:44:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Maci12

Both can use Toxic and that drastically cuts out Snover's bulk as a subseeder.

Snover isn't really going to be around much longer after the Bulky Water dies. It's certainly not staying in on anything else.

Snover has *base 40* speed. I can see an argument to run EVs to catch Swampert, but you need 96 EVs just to catch -Speed Swampert and 164 EVs to outspeed Impish Swampert. Snover can't really afford to lose Special Attack or it's worthless on that front - you really need the 252 EVs in order to accomplish *anything*, and Snover becomes less able to take simple hits without HP investment.

***kokoloko**** · Dec 21st, 2012, 11:27:45 AM

The moves should look like this:

Leech Seed
Blizzard
Protect / Substitute
Giga Drain / Substitute

Everything else looks okay, so once you make this change (and edit the skeleton accordingly), I'll approve.

cim · Dec 21st, 2012, 3:52:46 PM

I made the changes and added EVing for Swampert. Should I make the Impish EVs standard? I might want to run a few calcs.

***kokoloko**** · Dec 26th, 2012, 7:56:07 AM

I'd keep the standard as you have it now and mention both SpD and Def spreads in AC.

QC Approved 1/3

Upstart · Dec 29th, 2012, 4:07:49 PM

QC Approved 2/3

**RT.** · Dec 29th, 2012, 5:32:17 PM

QC Approved 3/3

***kokoloko**** · Jan 5th, 2013, 9:19:04 AM

So... Abomsnow dropped. I'm gonna lock this and leave it in this forum just in case Aboma gets banned for some reason.

Sucks that you did all this work and then that happened lol

Dec 3rd, 2012, 1:28:12 PM	#1
cim dreams of ladybugs crushed forever Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,370 five years here and i can't change my custom title :(	Snover (QC 3/3) I'll write this over the next day or so [Overview] <p>Snover is the only legal Pokemon that can summon permanent weather in Underused, making him a mandatory member of a hail team. Unfortunately, Snover is a pretty terrible Pokemon, with not a single stat higher than Base 62. It's quite challenging to make Snover into a useful threat on a hail team. At least with its decent Grass / Ice typing and Eviolite, it can carve a small niche for itself as a Bulky Water check that can set up weather on these threats with relative impunity. However, Snover will always be limited by the relative weakness of his attacks as well as his vulnerability to Stealth Rock and super-effective attacks.</p> [SET] name: Hail Support move 1: Leech Seed move 2: Blizzard move 3: Protect / Substitute move 4: Giga Drain / Substitute item: Eviolite ability: Snow Warning nature: Modest evs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD [SET COMMENTS] <p>This set is Snover's best chance at doing something once it has set up Hail. With this spread and Eviolite, Snover has 323 HP and 235 Special Defense, which gives it enough bulk to set up on the metagame's bulky water types such as Swampert, Blastoise, Suicune, and Milotic. With the given Special Attack, Snover has enough power to check a variety of Pokemon - for example, Raikou is 2HKOed by Blizzard, and without Aura Sphere it can't do too much back. Most of Snover's job is done once Snow Warning has activated, but this set aims to accomplish as much as it can while it's in play.</p> <p>Leech Seed is a good support move in general and something that sets Snover apart from other members of a Hail team. Blizzard is the obligatory STAB attack, which, due to its high Base Power, does decent damage despite coming from a mere 245 Special Attack stat. The last two moves Snover runs depends on whether or not you want to take out Water types directly, what kind of attacks you want to scout, and personal preference. Protect buys a turn of Leech Seed recovery and allows you to scout for Choice attackers. Substitute won't help much for scouting unless used on a predicted switch, but Snover is a decent executor of the SubSeed strategy, sapping HP with both Leech Seed and Hail damage. Most bulky waters cannot break the Substitute in one hit, allowing Snover to stall them out. Giga Drain allows you to directly combat Bulky Waters, sometimes OHKOing Swampert and sometimes 2HKOing Blastoise, while also healing Snover a little bit.</p> [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] <p>The EVs are carefully optimized to ensure Snover has the potential to do something before it dies. 248 HP and 8 Special Defense ensures that Suicune, Blastoise, and Milotic cannot break a Snover Substitute with their 0 SpA Ice Beams. Special Attack is maximized as its the only real way that Snover can hit things, and extra defensive investment doesn't go far enough to offset the difference in power. One can choose to reallocate HP EVs to Speed in order to outrun Relaxed or Impish Swampert - you need 96 and 164 Speed EVs respectively to accomplish this. Outrunning Swampert lets you KO it with Giga Drain before it can set up Stealth Rock, but your bulk takes a notable hit for a very specific situation. Special Defense investment is also possible, but you really need all of the Special Attack investment in order to do anything.</p> (more coming) Max Special Attack gives Snover his best chance of accomplishing something. EVs ensure that Suicune / Blastoise / Milotic never break its Substitute with 0 SpA Ice Beam Speed investment for Relaxed / Impish Swampert (96 / 164) can come out of HP, letting you KO lead Swampert before it can set up Stealth Rock, but your bulk takes a notable hit. Special Defense is possible to invest in, but Snover becomes even more useless that way. Snover should only be used on teams that take advantage of Hail, and its partners should be picked carefully. Offensively, good spammers of Blizzard include Rotom-F, Jynx, Sheer Force Nidoking / Nidoqueen, and Froslass. Defensively, a hail team can take advantage of Ice Body Walrein to stall opponents to death. Both styles of play benefit from entry hazards from Spikes Froslass Either style of team needs adequate coverage of Fire, Fighting, and Rock type attacks. Nidoqueen can handle both of the latter, while Pokemon like Porygon2, Snorlax, and Arcanine can all handle Fire attacks. [Other Options] <p>Snover doesn't really have much else it can do. A Choice Band set is perhaps the most interesting option. Snover has access to Wood Hammer and Ice Shard, which give it much needed power and priority, but it is still easily walled and losing Eviolite makes Snover much harder to use effectively. Other than that, Shadow Ball is an option to attempt to beat Froslass before it sets up on your team... and that's about it.</p> [Checks and Counters] In terms of what Snover aims to do (set up permanent hail) it has no "true" counters - nothing else sets up permanent weather in UU. Setting up Rain Dance or Sunny Day will end Hail until Snover comes back into play. Tornadus is the most common Rain Dancer in UU, but it is weak to Ice. Bronzong is perhaps the perfect counter - can set up weather, resists both STAB attacks, and hits back with a STAB SE Steel attack. Snorlax works similarly, but Leech Seed and Giga Drain put a bit of a dent into it. Specially Defensive Rhyperior, if it's faster, can check even Substitute Snover with Rock Blast. Snover hates Super-Effective hits, especially from the physical side, so once you bring in any reasonably strong Pokemon on Snover, it's done for. Setting up Stealth Rock is important if you aim to wear down Snover as it constantly comes in to replenish its weather type. outline ... [Overview] Almost worthless pre-evolution of Abomasnow. All Hail teams must use a slot on Snover, so the challenge is to give Snover something to accomplish before it dies. Decent defensive typing lets it set up on Bulky Waters for free. Weakness of attacks and vulnerability to Stealth Rock limit its usefulness. [SET] name: Hail Support move 1: Leech Seed move 2: Blizzard move 3: Protect / Substitute move 4: Giga Drain / Substitute item: Eviolite ability: Snow Warning nature: Modest evs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD [SET COMMENTS] With Eviolite, Snover has 323 HP and 235 Special Defense, allowing it to set up on Pokemon such as Swampert, Blastoise, Slowbro, and Suicune. This Snover can actually compete with non-Aura Sphere Raikou, nearly 2HKOing with Blizzard, though it's not a reliable switch in. Most of this set's job is done once it comes in due to Snow Warning - the challenge is to make Snover useful before it goes down. Leech Seed is a good move to throw on the switch, giving your next Pokemon a bit of HP as it comes in. Blizzard gets STAB and has a high base power, which helps make up for Snover's terrible Special Attack stat. Your choice of last two moves depends on whether or not you want to take down certain Water types, what kind of attacks you expect to scout, and preference. Protect is useful for stalling for a turn and scouting out Choice users, particularly against lead Choice Scarfers. Substitute allows Snover to potentially set up a SubSeed strategy, with Hail damage whittling at the opposition. Giga Drain puts the hurt on Bulky Waters, sometimes OHKOing Swampert and sometimes 2HKOing Blastoise. [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS] Max Special Attack gives Snover his best chance of accomplishing something. EVs ensure that Suicune / Blastoise / Milotic never break its Substitute with 0 SpA Ice Beam Speed investment for Relaxed / Impish Swampert (96 / 164) can come out of HP, letting you KO lead Swampert before it can set up Stealth Rock, but your bulk takes a notable hit. Special Defense is possible to invest in, but Snover becomes even more useless that way. Snover should only be used on teams that take advantage of Hail, and its partners should be picked carefully. Offensively, good spammers of Blizzard include Rotom-F, Jynx, Sheer Force Nidoking / Nidoqueen, and Froslass. Defensively, a hail team can take advantage of Ice Body Walrein to stall opponents to death. Both styles of play benefit from entry hazards from Spikes Froslass Either style of team needs adequate coverage of Fire, Fighting, and Rock type attacks. Nidoqueen can handle both of the latter, while Pokemon like Porygon2, Snorlax, and Arcanine can all handle Fire attacks. [Other Options] Choice Band Wood Hammer and Ice Shard present an interesting offensive option that gives Snover some priority and much needed power, but without being able to take advantage of Blizzard, the set is easily walled. Losing Eviolite really hurts too. A Hidden Power could give coverage on something 4X weak to a particular attack, but it's too weak otherwise. Shadow Ball lets you attempt to beat Froslass before it can do too much damage to your team. [Checks and Counters] In terms of what Snover aims to do (set up permanent hail) it has no "true" counters - nothing else sets up permanent weather in UU. Setting up Rain Dance or Sunny Day will end Hail until Snover comes back into play. Tornadus is the most common Rain Dancer in UU, but it is weak to Ice. Bronzong is perhaps the perfect counter - can set up weather, resists both STAB attacks, and hits back with a STAB SE Steel attack. Snorlax works similarly, but Leech Seed and Giga Drain put a bit of a dent into it. Specially Defensive Rhyperior, if it's faster, can check even Substitute Snover with Rock Blast. Snover hates Super-Effective hits, especially from the physical side, so once you bring in any reasonably strong Pokemon on Snover, it's done for. Setting up Stealth Rock is important if you aim to wear down Snover as it constantly comes in to replenish its weather type. __________________ i was nobody we're all a little bit strange, don't worry about it Last edited by RT.; Jan 3rd, 2013 at 9:53:33 PM. Reason: added copyediting tag

Dec 4th, 2012, 11:35:08 AM	#2
Maci12 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 174	A Snover set that I used successfully on several teams is a speedier, more annoying take on the Hail Support set: @ Leftovers Trait: Snow Warning Nature: Timid EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe - Leech Seed - Substitute - Protect - Blizzard This set is obviously super odd looking, but I've found that it can be way more useful for my teams than the standard Eviolite sets. Even with Eviolite, Snover isn't going to be winning any Defensive awards, though certainly it does increase its bulk significantly. This set capitalizes on annoying your opponent. Minimum HP is used so that Leech Seed heals Snover for upwards of 18% against most enemies, meaning that between Substitute, Protect, and Leftovers, Snover will be healing more health than it is losing via using Substitute. Protect also makes Snover an interesting lead as it can scout out the sets of an opposing pokemon. If Victini uses V-Create, its generally a good bet that you are facing a Physical Victini and if Arcanine doesn't have leftovers, you know its an offensively based Arcanine. There are many more examples of its effectiveness as a Scout. Maximum Speed allows Snover to get the jump on Swampert, Bronzong, Blastoise, and everything with no speed investment under 80 Base Speed. This allows it to take out these pokemon one on one, as the combination of Substitute, Protect, and Leech Seed eventually stalls them to death or to very low health. Bronzong, something that plagues other sets, can be checked. Imagine the following scenario: Turn 1 Snover uses Leech Seed Bronzong uses Stealth Rock (predicting your switch because of the unfavorable match up) Turn 2 Snover uses Substitute (its best to substitute in case they switch immediately, as you can then set up on the switch in) Bronzong uses Gyro Ball From there you can either Protect or Substitute to your heart's content. I'm not suggesting that Snover is a check to Bronzong midgame, just that it has more of an advantage over Bronzong than does the set already outlined. Snover has a great advantage over grass switch ins if it is behind a sub, because unlike other subseeder's, Snover can answer their switch with a super effective Blizzard. Obviously this set has its downfalls, but I'd recommend trying it out before immediately rejecting it. This Snover isn't just a throw away spot; it can be used as a rather effective annoyer throughout the match. Having tested both sets thoroughly, I can say with confidence that I much prefer using this set and find it very viable. Last edited by Maci12; Dec 4th, 2012 at 11:37:14 AM. Reason: Adding information about it as a lead.

Dec 21st, 2012, 11:27:45 AM	#7
*kokoloko i wanna dedicate this song to all the lettuce out there Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,389	The moves should look like this: Leech Seed Blizzard Protect / Substitute Giga Drain / Substitute Everything else looks okay, so once you make this change (and edit the skeleton accordingly), I'll approve. __________________

Dec 21st, 2012, 3:52:46 PM	#8
cim dreams of ladybugs crushed forever Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 5,370 five years here and i can't change my custom title :(	I made the changes and added EVing for Swampert. Should I make the Impish EVs standard? I might want to run a few calcs. __________________ i was nobody we're all a little bit strange, don't worry about it

Dec 26th, 2012, 7:56:07 AM	#9
*kokoloko i wanna dedicate this song to all the lettuce out there Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,389	I'd keep the standard as you have it now and mention both SpD and Def spreads in AC. QC Approved 1/3 __________________

Dec 4th, 2012, 1:01:57 PM	#4
Pocket Talonflame :D Moderator Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 7,305 Bergenfield	Well being faster than the defensive Swampert is nice to kill it before it can set up Rocks, which plagues Hail Teams. Being faster than Blastoise is unnecessary, though.

Dec 4th, 2012, 1:27:19 PM	#5
Maci12 Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 174	Both can use Toxic and that drastically cuts out Snover's bulk as a subseeder. Other than Toxic they can't really touch it so outspeeding them is a nice benchmark.

Dec 29th, 2012, 4:07:49 PM	#10
Upstart Copy Cat Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 414 ROAR!	QC Approved 2/3 __________________ Check Out my RMT 4th Gen RMT: Sub For Your Life If the enemy thinks of the mountains, attack like the sea; and if he thinks of the sea, attack like the mountains. Member of the UU and RU QC team, VM me for a check

Dec 29th, 2012, 5:32:17 PM	#11
RT. Moderator Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,110	QC Approved 3/3 __________________

Jan 5th, 2013, 9:19:04 AM	#12
*kokoloko i wanna dedicate this song to all the lettuce out there Super Moderator** Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,389	So... Abomsnow dropped. I'm gonna lock this and leave it in this forum just in case Aboma gets banned for some reason. Sucks that you did all this work and then that happened lol __________________