Pokémon X and Y Discussion

[Jimera0]

Steel/Ice doesn't seem like AWFUL typing. True it's definitely not great and you shouldn't be expecting to use a Pokemon with that typing to wall anything (with fighting and fire probably being two of the most common coverage types in the game, with Ground not far behind), but it does give it enough resistances to switch in safely (baring predictions of course) and the Steel typing removes that pesky weakness to SR as well. Ice is a great offensive type, so as long as it gets a good movepool and decent offensive stats it should be able to do a fair job of sweeping and/or revenge killing with the right tools. I dare say that at least it's probably a better typing that pure Ice, which comes with a whopping single resistance to itself. And 3 weaknesses isn't that bad at all, even if two of them are 4x. While Pokemon that do carry the appropriate moves will wreck you, a lot of defensive Pokemon with fewer coverage moves will have difficulty cracking it.

And STAB on an Ice-type move IS important. Latios and Latias, Celebi, Tornadus-T Multiscale Dragonite, Haxorus, Hydreigon Hippowodon, Tangrowth, etc. can all tank non-stab'd ice attacks (either indefinitely or just long enough to KO back), but the added 1.5x boost can make a big difference against them. Not EVERY ice weak threat is 4x weak you know.

As for Fire/Grass, that's certainly not awful typing. Not great no, but not AWFUL either. Fire and grass have pretty good synergy offensively, being able to hit a lot of each other's resists for super-effective damage. Defensively, it doesn't have a lot of useful resistances but it also has only three weaknesses, two of which are uncommon, which is overall a pretty fair trade off. It IS a shame that one weakness is rock though. Still, a Fire Grass type could be a potent offensive threat.

Also you guys forgot to subtract Birabel from your calculations, meaning there's 42 type combinations without representative full evolved Pokemon and 41 total unrepresented. Not that the number matters that much :P

EDIT: And late to the party. This is what I get for taking so long to make sure I was right about the number of weaknesses stuff would have XD

[IcyMan28]

Grass/Fire would be very cool, and I think I have a good idea for it flavor wise.

It would be a peacock with features based on the Strelitza, also known as the "Bird of Paradise" flower. Here's a picture: http://bayhillflorist.com/wp-content...12/07/bird.jpg

It would be relatively rare, a single stage pokemon with the main body parts having a red/blue fire theme and the large tail being leafy and green. Its 2 available abilities would be Chlorophyll and Solar Power, with decent SpA (105 at least) and Spe (95 please). As a bird, it would also have access to Roost, but who knows.

[Tory]

1) I would like two items per Pokemon. One can be used for equip like Experbelt, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. The second items can be like Lum Berry, Salac Berry, Leftovers etc.

2) I would like dual type moves, or 3-4. Like Tri Attack can hit fire first, electric second, and ice third.

=]

[SmashBrosBrawl]

I find it funny that people are asking for broken pokemons^. Like i said for Dragon/Fighting and stuff i doubt those will happen due to how op they are. GF always try to balance the pokemons somewhat even the ones that are made to be broken such as kyogre being slow and Arceus being forced to run a plate to change type. My bet is that they wont change that and i think they probably learned their lesson from gen 5 and its many regular uber pokes. Though of course assuming they know about our tiers.

[IcyMan28]

You realize GF has already done Dragon/Fire and Dragon/Ground, which are stronger than Dragon/Fighting. Dragon/Water is another one up there.

It's unlikely that GF will retroactively nerf something they've already done just because we think it's broken, but there's nothing stopping them from doing whatever they want, especially if its new.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat Tory

1) I would like two items per Pokemon. One can be used for equip like Experbelt, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. The second items can be like Lum Berry, Salac Berry, Leftovers etc.

2) I would like dual type moves, or 3-4. Like Tri Attack can hit fire first, electric second, and ice third.

=]

Ahhh these ideas are incredibly poorly thought out. Multiple items would be annoying, though I suppose it's the less nasty of the two. It would be annoying having everyone running a damn weakness averting berry alongside a Choice item or life orb or something. There's just too much room for broken cobinations though. Imagine a Dragonite with a Choice band/Life Orb AND a Yache Berry. That would be horrifying.

The REALLY bad idea though is multi-type moves, something I've seen suggested by people before without thinking about how on earth it'd actually WORK. Can you imagine how confusing it would be to calculate damage from attacks? Say Muddy Water was Water Ground... would it be super-effective against Charizard, or non-effective? Sure you could say that it just multiplies all the effects together but that leads to some really un-intuitive results, and remember this is a game meant to be played by children. And don't even get me started on 3-4 effects... working THAT out in your head would be nearly impossible.

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

I find it funny that people are asking for broken pokemons^. Like i said for Dragon/Fighting and stuff i doubt those will happen due to how op they are. GF always try to balance the pokemons somewhat even the ones that are made to be broken such as kyogre being slow and Arceus being forced to run a plate to change type. My bet is that they wont change that and i think they probably learned their lesson from gen 5 and its many regular uber pokes. Though of course assuming they know about our tiers.

I honestly don't think that Gamefreak would shy away from typings because they're "OP". Imagine how many people assumed that Dark/Ghost would be OP before Sableye came around. No weaknesses! Or what about Electric/Levitate? In the end neither proved to be as powerful as we expected. Dragon/Fighting might seem unstoppable on paper... until you realize just how many of the commonly used Steel types are neutral to Fighting anyway. As long as they didn't give it outrageous stats to match it should be fine. It certainly couldn't be much worse than Dragon/Ground is (yes no 4x weakness, but you have double the number of weaknesses overall. And no immunities either).

In any case, Gamefreak does NOT pay much attention to competitive battling when making these decisions. Any balance decisions they make are generally for in-game and friendly multiplayer play. We tend to forget here on Smogon that us competitive battlers make up a VERY small percentage of the total audience for Pokemon games.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

You realize GF has already done Dragon/Fire and Dragon/Ground, which are stronger than Dragon/Fighting. Dragon/Water is another one up there.

It's unlikely that GF will retroactively nerf something they've already done just because we think it's broken, but there's nothing stopping them from doing whatever they want, especially if its new.

Dragon Fighting is perfect coverage and has the nasty combo of outrage and close combat. Best typing ever.

[Shroomisaur]

Originally Posted by Fat Tory

1) I would like two items per Pokemon. One can be used for equip like Experbelt, Choice Band, Choice Scarf. The second items can be like Lum Berry, Salac Berry, Leftovers etc.

2) I would like dual type moves, or 3-4. Like Tri Attack can hit fire first, electric second, and ice third.

=]

I see where you're going, but I think dual items would be a horribly imbalanced idea. All it would do is let every single Pokemon run lefties in addition to Choice items, LO, etc. A single item is all that we need!

Dual typed moves is something I was talking about a few pages ago, but Tri Attack is another excellent idea. 3 hits with 30 BP each, changing types each hit.

As for new typings, I'd like to see absolutely ANY of the combinations that hasn't been explored yet. Regardless of whether you think they would be 'terrible' or not, every unique typing brings its own set of unique resists to the table to allow for more options when building a team!

Underrated type combo: Normal/Ghost. Only 1 weakness (Dark), 2 Resists (Bug, Poison) and a wonderful 3 immunities (Normal, Fighting, Ghost). Plus there are a bunch of cool ideas right off the top of my head for this typing...

[IcyMan28]

Originally Posted by Fat Yveltal

I want a Grass Dragon because it's weaknesses and resistances alone would be out of this world!
Four regular weaknesses; Poison, Dragon, Flying, Bug
One super weakness(4x damage); Ice
One regular resistance; Ground
Three super resistances(.25x damage); Grass, Water, Electric
And neutral to eight types, meaning it doesn't get severely crippled by Dark, Steel or Psychic attacks, and Flamethrower ideally wouldn't OHKO or even 2HKO it.
And just think. it could learn Solar Beam and get Draco Meteor tutoring.

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Dragon Fighting is perfect coverage and has the nasty combo of outrage and close combat. Best typing ever.

So is Dragon/Ground, except many steels are neutral/immune. Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong...basically every OU steel manages to negate the fighting weak. Dragon/Ground hits Jirachi and Gross hard in exchange for missing Skarm. I'd say they're about equal.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Dragon Fighting is perfect coverage and has the nasty combo of outrage and close combat. Best typing ever.

It would end up not being perfect coverage if they released the Ghost/Steel Pokémon. That's why a Ghost/Steel, preferably one with Levitate, should be created, preferably with stats on par that on Heatran or Jirachi. It could be balanced by being weak to Fire and not having a resistance to Water, alongside a bad Special Defense.

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

So is Dragon/Ground, except many steels are neutral/immune. Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong...basically every OU steel manages to negate the fighting weak. Dragon/Ground hits Jirachi and Gross hard in exchange for missing Skarm. I'd say they're about equal.

Steel-type is weak to Fighting and Ground, but almost every Steel-type on OU is neutral or immune to one of those types, making Fire the only really viable way to have coverage against all of them, except Heatran, but they made Reshiram with Turboblaze, so even it doesn't matter.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Dragon Fighting is perfect coverage and has the nasty combo of outrage and close combat. Best typing ever.

*points to earlier post*

Also, who is to say that they'd give it Close Combat? I shouldn't have to produce a list of all the Fighting type Pokemon that lack that move. And even if they did, Skarmory would still wall it, and others would be able to stand up to it.

Not to mention the very real possibility of a Steel/Ghost this generation, after which it would NOT have perfect coverage. Or even just an ability akin to levitate that causes immunity to fighting type moves. If it weren't for Skarmory and Levitate, Dragon/Ground would have perfect coverage too.

I dislike when people call something OP before they even try to face it. Put on the right Pokemon it probably could be, but the same can be said for any good typing. Just wait and see.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat IcyMan28

So is Dragon/Ground, except many steels are neutral/immune. Skarmory, Metagross, Jirachi, Forretress, Scizor, Bronzong...basically every OU steel manages to negate the fighting weak. Dragon/Ground hits Jirachi and Gross hard in exchange for missing Skarm. I'd say they're about equal.

Its been pretty estabilished that a base atk of at least 110 plus a boosting move means nothing stands in the way of a Close Combat. Dragon Ground on the other hand means a free switch in for Skarmory and Bronzong. Dragon Fighting on the other hand is unstopabble.

[CountBleck]

Originally Posted by Fat SmashBrosBrawl

Its been pretty estabilished that a base atk of at least 110 plus a boosting move means nothing stands in the way of a Close Combat. Dragon Ground on the other hand means a free switch in for Skarmory and Bronzong. Dragon Fighting on the other hand is unstopabble.

I still think skarmory would provide a challenge for this thing.
Especially since a super effective Brave Bird would likely hurt. a lot

[IcyMan28]

I love that we already know the movepool of speculated Dragon/Fight pokemon. You're assuming SD + CC as is with your Lucario reference, and that's ignoring the fact that we don't know what the surrounding environment will be. What if it ends up with middling speed and frail defenses? Or maybe we get a ghost/steel next gen to balance it out? Typing alone doesn't make a pokemon broken.

[Jimera0]

Speaking of an ability that grants immunity to Fighting type moves... how about...

Insubstantial: Pokemon is immune to Fighting and Normal type moves.

This would allow for the creation of Pokemon that don't have a physical form without them all having to be ghost types. For example, imagine a Water/Fire Pokemon made of steam, or Pokemon made of pure electricity, fire, water, mist, air or dust. I think it's a really cool idea in that not only is it a useful competitive ability, it also opens up whole world of designs that before would not have really made sense flavor-wise, without having to make them all Ghost type. It'd also present a new breed of spinblockers that don't share typical ghost weaknesses, something Stall would greatly appreciate.

[Champion Steve]

So Stall teams could have multiple spinblockers without compounding weaknesses? That sounds kinda ridiculously good. And that's not even counting just how useful that added immunity is.

[IcyMan28]

That sounds like a pretty great idea. Very creative.

[ThePROlificHipster]

they should make a moxie ability for special attackers.

[labarith]

Originally Posted by Fat Jean mi

"And Fire/Grass seems awful since fire removes grass resistance to water and ground and gives it a rock weakness."

If it has good defenses, it can take neutral hits. Ferrothorn would take hits better I know but grass/fire would also be a good dual STAB coverage, something that Ferrothorn doesn't have. I can see a good tank set with this typing. It could also be a great sun abuser.

Quite Frankly, a Grass/Fire "Starmie" - special attacker would have some decent coverage... especially if Grass got a solid "Grass Beam" to use over energy ball.

Imagine Starmie Stats, with Flamethrower/Grass Beam/HP Ice/Earth Power...

[Basileus]

What if:
1. New type?
2. 4-stage evolutions?
3. Pokemon so strong it is banned from ubers?

[CountBleck]

Originally Posted by Fat Jimera0

Speaking of an ability that grants immunity to Fighting type moves... how about...

Insubstantial: Pokemon is immune to Fighting and Normal type moves.

This would allow for the creation of Pokemon that don't have a physical form without them all having to be ghost types. For example, imagine a Water/Fire Pokemon made of steam, or Pokemon made of pure electricity, fire, water, mist, air or dust. I think it's a really cool idea in that not only is it a useful competitive ability, it also opens up whole world of designs that before would not have really made sense flavor-wise, without having to make them all Ghost type. It'd also present a new breed of spinblockers that don't share typical ghost weaknesses, something Stall would greatly appreciate.

My only problem with this is that the best part of being a ghost is the fighting and normal immunities. If this ability existed I hope it would be used sparingly... or else the already small pool of viable ghosts might shrink or never gain any new members.

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Originally Posted by Fat Basileus

What if:
1. New type?The only reason dark and steel exist is to balance psychic so probably not.
2. 4-stage evolutions? YES. DEFINITELY.
3. Pokemon so strong it is banned from ubers? Ubers is a banlist.

4 stage is THE thing they should add in gen 6.

[celever]

Originally Posted by Fat Basileus

3. Pokemon so strong it is banned from ubers?

Holy Arceus! Stronger than Arceus???

[ThePROlificHipster]

4 stage evolutions would actually help the in game play since it would make it worthwhile to keep playing after you beat the elite 4.

[Jimera0]

Originally Posted by Fat CountBleck

My only problem with this is that the best part of being a ghost is the fighting and normal immunities. If this ability existed I hope it would be used sparingly... or else the already small pool of viable ghosts might shrink or never gain any new members.

oh I agree with that. It's not the type of ability that could just be handed out left and right flavor-wise anyway. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if such an ability became the "exlusive" of a specific Pokemon or line. It would also probably come with either terrible defense or special defense or both, to balance it out and since either one can fit flavor-wise pretty well. Something that's hard to hit, but if you DO hit it, it goes down quickly. That sort of thing is pretty prevalent in RPGs as it is (the slimes from FF1 come to mind), so it's nothing unprecedented.

Overall it wouldn't be handed out like Levitate is or anything, so I think as long as it's applied sparingly it could really be interesting.