HeartGold and SoulSilver ingame tiers

[Diana]

Whoa, didn't realize discussion had picked up so much while I was gone, sorry about that.

A Pokemon being dropped midgame would definitely have an effect on its ranking, but something used as a "crutch" could be still considered for the lower-mid tiers.

Gyarados is just fantastic, no question about that. I really do like Lapras, but Gyarados is just better. Lapras still feels like a high-tier Pokemon though, despite being not as good as Gyarados it's a very solid Pokemon.

Is the consensus here to stick Rattata with Sentret in Mid? I'm okay with that, though I like Rattata slightly better.

I did a mono-water run a long time ago when it comes to Water-types but I don't remember anything about that other than Lanturn is actually pretty solid, somewhere in that mid-high line sounds good. Water/Electric is just such an awesome typing and it can level against swimmers on Route 40/41 so I'd lean high.

I do remember a much more recent run, which was mono-Grass (I know, painful, right?), so I might pitch in for these, though not doing the full write-ups yet as I have to go pretty soon.

Hoppip: Bottom. Can't hit anything, even if it has a fun support movepool. At one point this thing, as a Skiploom, beat Morty's Gengar with Flash/Leech Seed/Stun Spore but that took hilarious luck and it sucked literally everywhere else. It was fun though.

Bellsprout: Mid. Actually not that bad, though it's sad that Growth doesn't help out with Vine Whip in Gen 4. Still quite the decent Grass-type, especially later on when it gets Sludge Bomb. Before that it's still very usable, though it goes through the typical lulls of being a Grass-type.

Exeggcute: Mid. I wish it wasn't stuck with Confusion for so long but it was actually quite usable, which surprised me. One of those Pokemon that can actually scare Whitney a bit, actually, since it basically lives to Reflect and spread status early. It's really on the lower end of Mid but I'm leaning this way since that extra Psychic-type gives it some Team Rocket utility.

Paras: Bottom. Could be talked into Low as well, it's a borderline case. Slow as molasses with a ton of resistances, to be sure, and has trouble hitting well early, but as time goes on you get moves such as Dig and Giga Drain which give it something to do, so it's not totally useless, just mostly. Spore is sweet but with base 30 Speed you can't exactly safely do it to much.

[DHR-107]

I've been using Raticate (Bred with Flame Wheel) and it still really isn't that strong. It has an awesome moveset, but jeez it dies to everything if it doesn't kill it first... Hyper Fang + Bite (Crunch) and Flame Wheel hits pretty much the whole game pretty well. I'm running it on a "Challenge Team" of sorts with some other general low ranking crap (Electrode Arbok etc) and it's probably the second best on my team atm.

I would def agree that it feels easier/better to use than Furret did. I used a Furret in BW and it was surprisingly solid, so I take back my previous statements on it!

[neilymon]

essentially copying over my entry from the GSC thread:

Totodile - Top Tier
Availability: Starter
Stats: Above Average
Typing: Water (not amazing but not bad either)
Movepool: Above Average
Major Battles: Rage is surprisingly effective against the early gyms, although you'll struggle with Scyther's U-Turn, Miltank's Stomp, and your rival's Razor Leaf. After that, TMs (Headbutt, Earthquake, Rock Slide), HMs/tutors (Surf->Waterfall, Ice Punch) and learned moves (Ice Fang, Bite->Crunch) make it an incredibly versatile Pokemon. Totodile can win the game singlehandedly; just bring along some HM slaves.

[inanimate blob]

Originally Posted by Fat neilymon

essentially copying over my entry from the GSC thread:

Totodile - Top Tier
Availability: Starter
Stats: Above Average
Typing: Water (not amazing but not bad either)
Movepool: Above Average
Major Battles: Rage is surprisingly effective against the early gyms, although you'll struggle with Scyther's U-Turn, Miltank's Stomp, and your rival's Razor Leaf. After that, TMs (Headbutt, Earthquake, Rock Slide), HMs/tutors (Surf->Waterfall, Ice Punch) and learned moves (Ice Fang, Bite->Crunch) make it an incredibly versatile Pokemon. Totodile can win the game singlehandedly; just bring along some HM slaves.

Besides the wrong generation's picture, I completely agree. Totodile seems to have the perfect coverage. I want to mention one thing, though - fast special Electric types, such as Jolteon, Raichu, and Electrode. Electrode especially are abundant. Remember to be wary of these Pokémon, because while Earthquake is a great move for dealing with them, often they can outspeed and hit on your weak Special Defense.

Also, the Rival's Chikorita line doesn't deserve a mention. That thing is pitiful because the AI can't SubSeed.

[TM13IceBeam]

I think the only battle where you need to watch out for Bayleef is the Azalea battle where barring overgrinding, Croconaw doesn't have Ice Fang to deal with it. Bite shits all over Gastly though and Zubat is a joke. Scyther and Miltank are all strong foes that not everyone can deal with, and Croconaw just happens to be one of them: it shouldn't be penalised for it (it's like say Misty's Starmie in RBY). Scratch/Rage can be upgraded into Headbutt in the forest, which you can later swap for Slash/Return. Having natural Water/Ice coverage is stupidly good especially when it essentially means you cheese over the final boss (or at least, the first final boss).

[neilymon]

Copied this over from the GSC thread: What's the best STAB Pokemon for each type? 2 rules: 1) It should have a decent STAB move early and a strong STAB move late 2) No starters

Psychic: Abra (Confusion -> Psybeam -> Psychic)
Ground: Geodude (Magnitude -> Earthquake)
Flying: Scyther (Wing Attack / TM Aerial Ace)
Bug: Scyther (TM U-Turn -> X-Scissor / Tutor Bug Bite)
Fighting: Heracross (Brick Break -> Close Combat)
Fire: Magmar (Ember -> Fire Punch -> Flamethrower -> TM Overheat)
Normal: Tauros (Horn Attack -> Take Down -> TM Return)
Ice: Lapras (Ice Shard -> Ice Beam)
Electric: Mareep (ThunderShock -> Discharge -> Thunder)
Ghost: Gastly (Lick -> Shadow Ball)
Poison: Grimer (Sludge -> Sludge Bomb -> TM Poison Jab)
Rock: Geodude (Rock Throw -> Stone Edge)
Dragon: Dratini (TM Dragon Pulse -> TM Dragon Claw -> Outrage)
Steel: Steelix? (TM Iron Tail)
Water: Vaporeon? (Water Gun -> HM Surf +/- Hydro Pump)
Grass: Bellsprout? (Vine Whip -> Razor Leaf -> Leaf Storm)
Dark: Umbreon? (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> Tutor Sucker Punch)

Again, Ho-Oh's Brave Bird and Sacred Fire are the best moves of their type, but they come so late in the game. Water could be pretty much anyone, I went with the highest SpA.

I'm unsure about a lot of these, especially the last four. Any suggestions?

[Lucchini]

Megahorn is definitely the best bug-type move. Heracross learns it kinda late, but not significantly later than, say, Stone Edge on Geodude.

Tauros isn't really the hardest normal-type hitter because Granbull and Ursaring exist. He's better than at least Granbull, though.

For the best water-type, I'd argue it's Gyarados with Waterfall, and the specially oriented poison types make better use of Sludge Bomb than Grimer.

Safari Zone exists, so Murkrow > Umbreon.

And I'd stay away from inaccurate moves with low PP (or just really inaccurate like Stone Edge and Iron Tail) entirely.

[Wishy]

Murkrow/Honchkrow is the best choice for in-game Dark type. Useable (in Honchkrow's case [125/105], really good) attacking stats & nice speed (Unfortunately, Honchkrow is a whole 20 points lower than Murkrow [71 vs 91]! not sure what GF were thinking), and are available before the E4 (sorry Houndour/Houndoom :<). I love Umbreon, but it's no good in game. Not offensive at all, and there really is no point in going totally defensive in-game. I used one in Platinum

Murkrow/Honchkrow also naturally learn 'the best' Dark type attacks (Faint Attack, Sucker Punch, Night Slash, Dark Pulse) but you probably wont get Dark Pulse (level 55) until Kanto unless you use the TM.

Maybe I'll do a quick write-up about Murkrow/Honchkrow later...

[neilymon]

Originally Posted by Fat Lucchini

Megahorn is definitely the best bug-type move. Heracross learns it kinda late, but not significantly later than, say, Stone Edge on Geodude.

Oh, Megahorn is definitely the best Bug move, it just sucks that Heracross doesn't get any Bug moves until Lv55. Compare that to Scyther, who gets U-Turn immediately. Basically, Heracross functions as a STAB Fighting-type until Lv55, after which he has the best STAB Bug and Fighting moves.

Tauros isn't really the hardest normal-type hitter because Granbull and Ursaring exist. He's better than at least Granbull, though.

Teddiursa comes ridiculously late in the game, certainly too late to be useful. But you're right, Snubbull's STAB Return is better than Tauros's (ugh, but he's so much worse overall).

For the best water-type, I'd argue it's Gyarados with Waterfall, and the specially oriented poison types make better use of Sludge Bomb than Grimer.

Hmm, I hadn't considered Waterfall with its lower BP, but on Red Gyarados it's certainly the pick over Vaporeon. And going by SpA, Gastly ends up being the best STAB Poison-type even though he doesn't naturally learn any. I have no idea why I was fixated on the crappy pure Poison-types.

Safari Zone exists, so Murkrow > Umbreon.

Another obvious one, as Wishy also pointed out. Murkrow (Pursuit -> Faint Attack -> TM Dark Pulse) is definitely way better.

And I'd stay away from inaccurate moves with low PP (or just really inaccurate like Stone Edge and Iron Tail) entirely.

Ugh, the next best Rock move is Rock Slide with 25 less BP and only 10% higher Accuracy. I guess the higher PP is more valuable in-game, though. As for Iron Tail, I guess the next best idea is Scizor (Bullet Punch -> Metal Claw -> Iron Head). Although if you don't have access to trades, you're stuck with Magnemite (Magnet Bomb -> TM Flash Cannon). Mediocre, unless you get it from the Pokewalker...

EDIT: I just remembered Technician Scyther gets a Wing Attack of 90 BP, which makes it arguably better than Fly (as strong as Dodrio and only weaker than something bizarre like Flying Dragonite).