Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

[TheCanadianWifier]

Originally Posted by Fat Lunar Fist

I want what we all want in Gen 6, a balanced metagame. I've read about the first 9 pages and a lot of the ideas seem really nice. Unfortunately, Game Freak will not give them to us. There will be new moves, new defensive pokemon, new offensive pokemon, and new mechanics, but the power creep will continue.
If we want a balanced game, we will have to create it ourselves.

Originally Posted by Fat cocoon

I also thought Gen 5 OU could have been handled better. Lets face it, Gen 5 OU is going to end up the worst tier of the generation, possibly the worst tier in the history of pokemon.

I'm just reading back through the thread now, so these may seem like old news, but these are some of the most important points I've seen brought up.

No. Game Freak won't help us out by offering some new options for balancing OU. Yes, they will keep introducing more and more powerful threats, and continue the inevitable power creep; because that's what makes them money. They still target the younger audiences, and as a 10 year old boy, would you rather have some lame, slow wall that can take any hit, or some badass dragon capable of tearing apart society? The dragon, obviously. But, regardless of what gets introduced, you know who has the power to give the big middle finger to Game Freak? Us. As a community, we can choose what seems too OP for a balanced meta, and what isn't. I completely agree with cocoon's opinion that Gen V OU was the worst metagame ever created in the history of competitive pokemon. But whose fault was that? Not Game Freak's, they only gave us the tools to create the metagame, it was up to the Smogon community to decide the tiers. Blaming GF and Nintendo for the bad metagame would be like blaming a baker for creating shitty cookies, after supplying him with fresh ingredients. It's not the supplier's fault that the cookies were shitty, the baker was given all the necessary tools to create something wonderful. But the baker fucked up, and he's the only one that you can blame.
Relating this back to pokemon, we, the smogon community are the only ones to blame for OU sucking so bad this gen. All I can hope, is that we've learned our lesson this time around, through suffering almost 2 years of this garbage, and we won't make the same mistakes again. Otherwise, competitive pokemon is about to taste a whole lot shittier for years to come.

[HackerKing]

I agree with TheCanadianWifier, but would like to point something out.

It's been said that the Gen 5 UU is looking like Gen 4 OU. Consider what that statement means. It means that there has been a power creep so large that an entire tier has shifted down one. (I understand that pokemon like Salamence remain OU. But playstyles are the things changing, not the pokemon,which still means a lot). Smogon may be good at balancing the game, but it's not perfect. This generation has introduced so many game changing things that we can't fix them all. While I understand that times change, enough is enough. Stall has been dwindling and Baton Pass teams have almost vanished from the face of the earth.

By the way, I hope that Gamefreak does slip more humor into the games. While some things infuriate me, it's always funny to see out of the way things like Shedinja with Final Gambit or Spinda with Contrary. I hope they add some more touches to their games like that. (Steel type with Toxic Boost?)

[BettaOffDead]

I actually want to see more naturally fast physical sweepers.

Sure we have stuff liek Terrakion and Salamence but they're slow compared to stuff Latios, Starmie, Alakazam, Jolteon etc.

The problem with using too many special sweepers is that Blissey and Chansey will wall your team all day.

Let us get a phsyical fight or ice type with 115 speed.

A fast physical steel type would also be nice

[Hugin]

Originally Posted by Fat HackerKing

I agree with TheCanadianWifier, but would like to point something out.

It's been said that the Gen 5 UU is looking like Gen 4 OU. Consider what that statement means. It means that there has been a power creep so large that an entire tier has shifted down one. (I understand that pokemon like Salamence remain OU. But playstyles are the things changing, not the pokemon,which still means a lot). Smogon may be good at balancing the game, but it's not perfect. This generation has introduced so many game changing things that we can't fix them all. While I understand that times change, enough is enough. Stall has been dwindling and Baton Pass teams have almost vanished from the face of the earth.

By the way, I hope that Gamefreak does slip more humor into the games. While some things infuriate me, it's always funny to see out of the way things like Shedinja with Final Gambit or Spinda with Contrary. I hope they add some more touches to their games like that. (Steel type with Toxic Boost?)

Smogon handles individual threats. The suspect testing process is 2 months long, essentially. You can't do the sweeping changes needed through that. This gen saw Chansey drop to UU. Heck, UU Victini, Abomasnow and Mew. OU is so broken that a STAB base-power 180 move off a Fairy just doesn't cut it. Something's got to change for gen VI, and I'm not sure what. Speed and power are both major problems, and it's not like Smogon can just ban the 30 most offensive pokemon that aren't already Uber.

[Smilodon]

Originally Posted by Fat TheCanadianWifier

All I want, seriously ALL I want, is for Defog to be buffed.

The move can be taunted as well, so there is a way way to prevent the foe from removing hazards, just like in today's game.

This comparison is not really honest. If you bring your "defoger" in game, and the opponent doesn't have taunt (which is not often used) and can't OHKO , you guaranty that you can remove hazard. Absolutely different from rapid spin, which can be avoided by switching a ghost type in.

Hazards (notice the "s") are not that easy to spread, especially if Deoxys-D leaves OU. You really think that a move able to clear 6 turn of set up (5 spikes and SR) without drawback would be balanced ?
I wouldn't complain about defog clearing the weather and only SR (one turn to set-up SR, one turn to remove it, both can be taunted, seems fair). It would put less pressure on teams that use spinner only because of their SR weakness. And, it would make spikes and t-spikes a little bit more interesting, as rapid spin would be much less used because of defog.

[Hugin]

Taunt is a heck of a lot more common than ghost-types, and most taunters would be far better at 'spinblocking' than the relatively frail and niche ghosts we have in OU. Besides, if they do defog your hazards, you can set them up again, just like happens today.

[manav95]

They need to add Pokemon with better defensive moves and abilities. Abilities like Unaware which completely stop boosting sweepers so they don't roll over your team. Gen 6 would need to add "offensebreakers" in order to get a balanced metagame again.

[blitzlefan]

I just realized. I'm really sick of Dragon Tail's imperfect accuracy. Honestly, isn't a measly 60 Base Power and ridiculous negative priority enough of a drawback? Now adding a rage-inducing 90 accuracy just seems like overkill. PLEASE GAMEFREAK! FIX THIS! And just more Ghost-types in general would be nice. Like Rotom but with like Grass-Ghost, Water-Ghost, Fire-Ghost, etc. instead of all Ghost-Electric.

[Hugin]

I also want more ways to screw over items. Better distribution for Knock-Off and Trick, and maybe an ability that shuts down all items on the field. Choice X should not be guaranteed.

Not a speculation, more of a question. If something gets Multitype other than Arceus(the fairy of this gen seems a possible choice), and it's not Uber, do we think Smogon's going to count usage for individual forms(like Rotom and Arceus) or is it going to combine them as one mon(Keldeo)? Splitting them seems like the smart/consistent option, but that might force lower tiers to do a LOT of unnecessary suspecting. After all, look at the usage very good Arceus forms(Poison, Fighting, Dark) get just because they have to compete for team slots with EKiller. Another multityper would be just the same, except outside of Ubers usage actually matters.

[Gary2346]

New Eeveelution: Ninfia.

I honestly have no idea what the fuck this Eeveelution's typing is. Usually it's pretty obvious in the name and the looks, but to me it looks like a cross between a Cinccino and a Mienshao. Maybe a just a Normal type Eeveelution? I guess that would be cool since Eevee can't be used in anything but LC. I'm kind of hoping it's something unique though. The last two Eeveelutions were quite depressing competitively. It HAS to have something unique about it, because GameFreak wouldn't have announced it so early if there was nothing really special about it. Sure it's a new Eeveelution, but I honestly think there's more to Ninfina. Some are speculating that she could be a Dragon type because she is the only Eevelution that has fangs (seen in another article), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a Dragon type. It looks a little girly for a Dragon, but then again....Altaria.

So, maybe Ninfia is just another throwaway Normal? OR she could possibly be a good, but not stellar Dragon that fits good in the UU tier which lacks Dragon types in general? Maybe a new typing that could yet again shake the OU meta game up even more?

[Homeslice]

I've heard a lot of Speculation around adding Light and Sound types. There's obviously a lot of little things inside the game already about sound (Uproar, Soundproof, etc) and Light is one of the most highly demanded types by fans whether people want to believe it or not. If this somehow ends up being true, maybe the eeveelution could be one of those? I don't know how it'd fit into either of those. Maybe Light, but still, I'd assume it's just another Normal type. The best we can really hope for is it being a Defensive/Offensive monster, or having some really cool unique move or ability to make it really viable.

[Halcyon of Light]

Originally Posted by Fat Gary2346

New Eeveelution: Ninfia.

I honestly have no idea what the fuck this Eeveelution's typing is. Usually it's pretty obvious in the name and the looks, but to me it looks like a cross between a Cinccino and a Mienshao. Maybe a just a Normal type Eeveelution? I guess that would be cool since Eevee can't be used in anything but LC. I'm kind of hoping it's something unique though. The last two Eeveelutions were quite depressing competitively. It HAS to have something unique about it, because GameFreak wouldn't have announced it so early if there was nothing really special about it. Sure it's a new Eeveelution, but I honestly think there's more to Ninfina. Some are speculating that she could be a Dragon type because she is the only Eevelution that has fangs (seen in another article), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a Dragon type. It looks a little girly for a Dragon, but then again....Altaria.

So, maybe Ninfia is just another throwaway Normal? OR she could possibly be a good, but not stellar Dragon that fits good in the UU tier which lacks Dragon types in general? Maybe a new typing that could yet again shake the OU meta game up even more?

Honestly, if I had to guess, I would say it looks most like a flying type to me. Maybe that's just because I REALLY would rather not have that great design wasted on another normal type, but it could also be that the flowing ribbons remind me of a flying type. Can't really say for sure.

[Kidogo]

Yeah flying type for sure imo, although i would have expected GF to do a more birdy flying eveelution. Then again, that really does look like a cross between audino and mienshao, so normal and fighting both seem possible as well. Too girly for fighting though

[Bent1ey]

Originally Posted by Fat BettaOffDead

Let us get a phsyical fight or ice type with 115 speed.

So we want Weavile?

[Hugin]

I saw speculation on another board that she was Ghost, which is honestly the only one that makes sense. Other than Espeon, every Eeveeloution has been blatantly, blindingly obvious what it's type is. I can't look at Ninfia and see clear Flying, Fighting, or Dragon, and Normal would probably look more like Eevee. Ghost, though, is just out there enough that it makes sense. After all, there's no reason Ghosts need to be scary, so it could easily be an 'obvious in retrospect' that she's undead. Fangs, pale, big eyes, all very standard 'ghost' markers.

[Gary2346]

Originally Posted by Fat Hugin

I saw speculation on another board that she was Ghost, which is honestly the only one that makes sense. Other than Espeon, every Eeveeloution has been blatantly, blindingly obvious what it's type is. I can't look at Ninfia and see clear Flying, Fighting, or Dragon, and Normal would probably look more like Eevee. Ghost, though, is just out there enough that it makes sense. After all, there's no reason Ghosts need to be scary, so it could easily be an 'obvious in retrospect' that she's undead. Fangs, pale, big eyes, all very standard 'ghost' markers.

A ghost type Eeveelution would be outstanding, but I can't really see much of a Ghost type in Ninfia other than her eyes and small fangs. She looks more majestic than anything else, which makes me believe that she's possibly either a Normal or Flying type. Normal type Eeveelution wouldn't piss me off as much as a Flying type because that's just another possibility of a Hurricane abuser, but now that you mention it it could possibly be a Ghost type.

[SHUCKLE MAN]

I know this sounds weird, but could that Eeveelution be Dragon-type? I know it doesn't really look that much like a Dragon-type, but neither do Altaria or Vibrava really.

If they continue the pattern with the stats, what would be the best distribution for the Eeveelution?

About the above posts with Gen V OU being awful, etc. I think next generation we need to go a simpler, and also faster route. Go from the top down (and I mean the VERY top; we can do it quickly, but at the same time, no short-cuts). Whether we have 3 or 50 Pokemon on the OU banlist (Ubers), it doesn't matter. Ideally as little as possible, but if we have to ban 50 Pokemon to get OU "right", then we'll have to do that. And we also shouldn't be scared about the possibility that we would hardly need to ban anything at all.

[Katakiri]

The cool thing about Ninfia is that we know that it gets every single move Eevee learns from Gen 3 onward (that fantastic support move-pool) and if it has a Dream World ability, we'll have access to it from day one with none of that Male-only crap we got early 5th Gen. Since all Eeveelutions follow the same level-up move pattern (more or less,) it wouldn't be hard to fill in the blanks unless it really is a new type.

Aside from having a sleek design, it's also the lightest Eeveelution so it would make sense for it to be quick.
It also doesn't seem to have an elemental basis as of yet, much like Umbreon before it so I think it might also have crap for attack. While Flareon, Vaporeon, and the rest of the Eeveelutions all have powerful elements for their attacks, Umbreon's is...headbutting things, giving people mean looks, and glowing at night. So yeah I expect Ninfia to be maybe a little less threatening than that even unless it can whip you with it's ribbons.

Based on those observations, I'm really hoping for a 130/60/95/65/65/110 Base stat Ninfia. A fast support Pokemon that can take hits and pass big Wishes and Subs. Nothing too threatening but being the one Pokemon fast enough to pass 101+ HP Subs without having the Sub take damage before the pass to ensure a resisted hit on the Sub would be enough to merit a niche even without knowing its typing or move-pool unless it's typing is just that awful. It even has Yawn to basically ensure a free Sub the next turn.
It would be like a faster Alomomola with Baton Pass that's actually worth using...so a faster Vaporeon...Yeah that.

Oh and if Mawile can be Steel-type, all bets are off for Ninfia.

[Cheapoman]

Originally Posted by Fat Katakiri

The cool thing about Ninfia is that we know that it gets every single move Eevee learns from Gen 3 onward (that fantastic support move-pool) and if it has a Dream World ability, we'll have access to it from day one with none of that Male-only crap we got early 5th Gen. Since all Eeveelutions follow the same level-up move pattern (more or less,) it wouldn't be hard to fill in the blanks unless it really is a new type.

Aside from having a sleek design, it's also the lightest Eeveelution so it would make sense for it to be quick.
It also doesn't seem to have an elemental basis as of yet, much like Umbreon before it so I think it might also have crap for attack. While Flareon, Vaporeon, and the rest of the Eeveelutions all have powerful elements for their attacks, Umbreon's is...headbutting things, giving people mean looks, and glowing at night. So yeah I expect Ninfia to be maybe a little less threatening than that even unless it can whip you with it's ribbons.

Based on those observations, I'm really hoping for a 130/60/95/65/65/110 Base stat Ninfia. A fast support Pokemon that can take hits and pass big Wishes and Subs. Nothing too threatening but being the one Pokemon fast enough to pass 101+ HP Subs without having the Sub take damage before the pass to ensure a resisted hit on the Sub would be enough to merit a niche even without knowing its typing or move-pool unless it's typing is just that awful. It even has Yawn to basically ensure a free Sub the next turn.
It would be like a faster Alomomola with Baton Pass that's actually worth using...so a faster Vaporeon...Yeah that.

Oh and if Mawile can be Steel-type, all bets are off for Ninfia.

Being a steel type would be pretty neat. High base speed and HP, as well as being able to pass wishes and immunity to poison. It being a ghost type however would mean spin blocking while having Wishpass and Wishprotect to keep itself alive.

[BROStime]

Something like an steel eeveelution would have been pretty cool, and I actually think Ninfia isn't the only eeveelution we are going to see in x & y. This is because everytime new eeveelutions get released its always two of them so im rather excited if there is coming two in gen VI as well.

[Katakiri]

So a video of the newly-named Sylveon has shown up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=pse_I1klRhA

I spy Trump Card and Swift in the battle and considering Eevee hasn't had Swift since PtHGSS Tutors, there's some decent momentum for a Normal-type Sylveon. But then it pulls all this Brave Bird/Dark Void crap out of nowhere so...Yeah. Game Freak's not really giving any clues here.

[G-Von]

Trying to not find out anything factual until the game comes out, it's just my luck that I stumbled upon this. I was just hoping to see what theorymoning was hot but nope, there's a new eeveelution. Fuck my life.

Maybe it's just a Normal-type evo through level up? Not all the Ee-lutions evolve through stones so i think it is plausible.

EDIT: After researching it's name, I think it may also be possible to be a bug-type. All the names relates to forests and one of them is even derived from a word meaning "larva of an insect". I will assume bug but I won't count out normal.

[Yggdrasill00]

I'm gonna say Flying type just because it looks like Skyla in Pokemon form lol.

[G-Von]

Oh, and I'm calling Multitype ability for Xerneas. It is a 16-point deer and I believe each point represents a type, while it is a Normal-type. I hope no one has mentioned this before lol.

[Gary2346]

Guys now that I think about it, I HIGHLY doubt that this Eeveelution is Normal after seeing the description of the video that Katakiri just posted. Look what it says:

Experienced Pokémon Trainers know that Eevee can evolve into seven different types, and now a new Eevee evolution with a different type has been revealed!

This makes me think that GameFreak most likely made Sylveon a different type then Normal. Think about it, why would Gamefreak make a new Eeveelution of a type that's already been used in the Evolution line? I mean technically Eevee can't evolve into a Normal type, but I think they count Eevee as a checked off type. I'm banking Flying or Bug typed. Since it's the only Eeveelution that has fangs (although it could mean nothing at all), a Bug type seems to be pretty plausible, however it wouldn't be a surprise to me if it's a Flying type either. Lots of Flying types in Pokemon have fangs. They don't have to have beaks.