Starmie (BW2 revamp) [QC 1/3]

[Jirachi]

Sorry for taking this long ~_~

Starmie

[Overview]

• Fastest Rapid Spinner
• Great coverage makes it a great offensive Pokemon
• Water/Psychic is a good typing for an offensive Pokemon, however gives it unfortunate weaknesses such as a Pursuit weakness.
• Its greatest nemesis is no other than Ferrothorn, one of the best Spikers in the metagame
• Pretty frail, which means it has to be careful while spinning.

[SET]
name: Offensive Rapid Spinner
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt / Psyshock
move 4: Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

• Fast, powerful, and good coverage makes Starmie a very difficult Pokemon to play against
• Hydro Pump slams pretty much everything that doesn't resist it and will serve as Starmie's main attacking move
• Surf is less powerful, however, it has perfect accuracy which makes it a reliable alternative.
• Ice Beam covers some of the things who resist Hydro Pump, such as Dragon and Grass types, hitting things like Dragonite, Latios, and Celebi pretty hard
• Thunderbolt hits opposing Water types, giving Starmie almost perfect coverage.
• Psyshock is another very useful move, hitting things like Calm Mind Keldeo harder than anything else, while also giving Starmie a tool to hit Blissey with. It can defeat a weakened Blissey which is nice.
• Rapid Spin turns Starmie into the best (and only) offensive Rapid Spinner in the metagame, being able to take advantage of all the switch Starmie causes to spin away the opponent's hazards.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Recover is an option over one of Starmie's coverage moves or Rapid Spin to ensure Starmie can last longer in the match. However, Starmie is so frail that it's going to be very difficult for it to pull it off, and losing one of those moves sucks.
• Hidden Power Fire is an option over one of the coverage moves to hit Ferrothorn but... it's pretty bad outside of that. Also, losing the ability to tie with other Starmie sucks.
• Hidden Power Grass and Grass Knot can be used over Thunderbolt, as they also hit Water types. Grass Knot can hit Jellicent fairly hard, while also hitting Gastrodon. Hidden Power Grass hits Gastrodon slightly harder, while also hitting Rotom-W, but can't 2HKO Jellicent.
• Life Orb versus Leftovers is a choice between power and survivability: with Life Orb, Starmie is incredibly difficult to switch into as it hits extremely hard, while with Leftovers, Starmie can last for much longer.
• Expert Belt is an in-between, sometimes boosting Starmie's attacks, without recoil.
• Starmie enjoys having a partner that can beat Ferrothorn and Blissey, because these are its main counters. A Fighting type such as Breloom is ideal for that.
• Politoed is a good partner as it boosts the power of Hydro Pump and allows Starmie to use Thunder, thanks to Drizzle.
• Chansey and Blissey destroy that set more than any other set Starmie can run.

[SET]
name: Bulky Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Scald
move 3: Psyshock / Ice Beam
move 4: Recover
item: Leftovers
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 248 HP / 36 Def / 224 Spe
ivs: 0 Atk


[SET COMMENTS]

• Offers a reliable Rapid Spinner who can last for the whole game
• Scald is Starmie's primary STAB, having decent power, good typing, and the ability to burn some of Starmie's most common switch ins, such as Ferrothorn, who are pretty useful when burned.
• Rapid Spin spins.
• Psyshock is an excellent move on Starmie, allowing it to defeat threats such as Calm Mind Keldeo, Terrakion in sandstorm, and also Gengar who could try to spinblock Starmie.
• Ice Beam, on the other hand, hits Dragon and Grass types, such as Dragonite and Celebi.
• Recover heals Starmie, allowing it to stick around in longer battles, because Starmie is going to take a lot of damage from Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Ferrothorn's Iron Barbs.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• The EV spread maxes out Starmie's HP, giving it more bulk so it can stick around longer. The Speed investment allows it to outspeed base 110s like Gengar, as there's nothing faster that Starmie really needs to outspeed or tie with. Outspeeding Gnegar is crucial to make sure it doesn't spinblock Starmie. The rest of the EVs go in Defense to give Starmie a bit more physical bulk.
• 0 Atk IVs ensure that Starmie takes the minimum damage possible from Sableye's Foul Play, which is useful as Sableye might want to spinblock Starmie.
• Psychic can go over Psyshock to hit stuff like Conkeldurr harder, however, Psyshock usually hits the most important targets harder.
• Starmie can also choose to drop Recover to run both Psyshock and Ice Beam, since both moves are fairly useful. However, that means that Starmie loses its important recovery move.
• Toxic can go over Recover or one of Starmie's coverage moves, which allows it to beat spinblockers like Jellicent and Sableye, but it's not so useful for other things though.
• Starmie appreciates Fighting typed partners as they can break through its greatest enemies, such as Ferrothorn, or lucky Tyranitar who avoid the burn to Pursuit Starmie.
• Starmie also appreciates partners that can beat Jellicent as it's pretty much the best answer to it. A Grass type like Celebi can do that, or a fast Tyranitar can destroy it.
• Jellicent wrecks that set btw.

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Specs
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

• SO STRONG
• Hydro Pump wrecks everything, including some of the frailer resists. It's very difficult to switch into it without a bulky Water resist.
• Surf is less powerful, however it is 100% accurate.
• Psyshock is an excellent move that allows Starmie to slam bulkier Specially defensive Pokemon such as SpD Rotom-W, or Blissey. It also allows Starmie to hit Fighting types hard and gives it a reliable STAB move when you can't afford to miss Hydro Pump.
• Ice Beam beats Grass and Dragon types that would want to switch into Starmie, like Celebi, Dragonite or Latias.
• Thunderbolt hits Water types like Jellicent who would like to switch into Hydro Pump.
• Trick ruins Ferrothorn and Blissey, making them fairly useless and allowing a team mate that hates one of these to sweep.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Hidden Power Grass can be used instead of Starmie's coverage move to hit some Water types like Gastrodon and Rotom-W, however, it's a fairly weak choice outside of that.
• One can run both Hydro Pump and Surf at the same time, which allows Starmie to use its most powerful attack when it needs it and Surf when it really needs to hit, at the cost of coverage.
• Rapid Spin can be used instead of a coverage move, as it allows Starmie to bring valuable Rapid Spin support once it has Tricked away its Choice item.
• Again, a Fighting type is Starmie's best friend, as it can break through its most common switch ins. Terrakion and Breloom are good options.
• If Starmie doesn't run Ice Beam, Latias will be very dangerous to it, so Scizor can also work well as a partner.
• Politoed is an amazing partner as with Drizzle support, Starmie will hit incredibly hard and even things like Ferrothorn will take a ton of damage from Hydro Pump. It also allows Starmie to run Thunder.

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Thunderbolt
move 4: Trick
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Natural Cure
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]

• Not Starmie's best set, but offers a reliable revenge killer which outspeeds pretty much the whole metagame. Starmie can make use of its great coverage to revenge kill a number of threats.
• Surf is a reliable STAB move which has enough power and accuracy to revenge kill a lot of stuff.
• Hydro Pump hits harder than Surf, and can be used if one doesn't care about missing.
• Ice Beam beats Dragon types like Salamence and Dragonite, that Starmie outspeeds even after a boost (or two in Dragonite's case.)
• Thunderbolt hits Gyarados and allows Starmie hit Choice Scarf Keldeo for Super Effective damage.
• Trick ruins some of Starmie's most common switch ins, like Ferrothorn, while also letting it get rid of it Choice Scarf if it doesn't need it anymore.

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

• Psychic can be used instead of Thunderbolt if someone wishes to take advantage of the fact Starmie outspeeds Choice Scarf Keldeo, as it can OHKO it after a bit of residual damage. Psychic also lets Starmie revenge kill most Fighting types reliably. Lastly, it hits Venusaur harder than everything else Starmie can use, usually OHKOing it after Life Orb / Stealth Rock damage. Given that Starmie will outspeed some Venusaur, it can be very helpful in a tight situation.
• Rapid Spin can also be used over Thunderbolt if someone can already deal with Water types and really needs to fit a Rapid Spinner somewhere.
• Starmie enjoys to see Ferrothorn, Blissey, and Water types to do its job better. A Fighting type like Breloom can take care of the first two, while an Electric type like Rotom-W can take care of the latter.
• Politoed is also a great partner for Starmie. It boosts Surf, making it a much more powerful revenge killing tool.

[Other Options]

• Everywhere Hydro Pump is used, Surf can be used to for a more accurate attack, however, Hydro Pump is generally better thanks to its higher base power, especially with Starmie's average Special Attack.
• A Dual Screen set
• Hidden Power Fire can be used on Sun teams as it allows Starmie to bypass things like Scizor and Ferrothorn who would otherwise give it some issues.
• Reflect Type is an interesting option for Starmie as it allows it to avoid Pursuit, U-turn, and other moves that Scizor or Tyranitar would try to use to take advantage of Starmie's weaknesses.
• Thunder Wave allows Starmie to support its team by crippling fast opponents.
• If used on a Rain team, Starmie should use Thunder instead of Thunderbolt, as Thunder is much more powerful and has an excellent 30% paralysis rate, meaning even if it's a coverage move, some of Starmie's switch ins won't appreciate the paralysis.
• In a similar way, if used on a Hail team, Starmie should use Blizzard instead of Ice Beam because of the higher base power.
• Starmie can also support its team by changing the weather to more favorable / less threatening conditions with Rain Dance or Hail. This strategy is more effective if the opponent's weather starter is down, though. Rain Dance powers up Starmie's Water STAB moves, but isn't effective against Rain teams, while Hail is only there to cancel out the opponent's weather, but is effective against all of the most popular weathers.

[Checks and Counters]

• Ferrothorn destroys it unless it gets burned by Scald
• Blissey and Chansey can take on the offensive sets pretty easily as long as they avoid Trick
• Kyurem-B resists Water and Electric and takes neutral damage from Ice Beam, and can OHKO Starmie with Outrage / Fusion Bolt.
• Dragon and Grass types are very dangerous to Starmie if it lacks Ice Beam.
• Jellicent can shrug off pretty much everything that Starmie has to throw at it, other than Life Orb boosted Thunder, and blocks Rapid Spin.
• Weavile is faster and can Pursuit Starmie as it switches out, however, it can't really switch in.
• If Tyranitar gets in while Starmie is Rapid Spinning, it can Pursuit it. However, most sets can 2HKO it with Hydro Pump, so it's pretty difficult to switch into it.
• SpD Rotom-W is pretty hard to deal with.
• Starmie doesn't really appreciate faster Pokemon as it's pretty frail, however, it can simply switch out of them.

[Super Mario Bro]

On the bulky set, Starmie should have 224 speed EVs for Tornadus-I.

[Dark Fallen Angel]

On the Life Orb set, I think that you should list Leftovers as one of the item options, or at least mention it on Additional Comments, since it boosts Starmie's survivability quite a bit. Starmie doesn't want to die too quickly, it wants to live long enough to be able to spin, and Leftovers helps on this regard, although Starmie has to sacrifice a bit of power because of this. Mention that rain can mitigate this to some extent, as Starmie can use the more powerful Thunder, instead of Thunderbolt, and its Hydro Pump will be boosted.

[papai noel]

In the second set I believe you should give Leftovers an AC mention and you should change the name to Offensive Rapid Spin, or something on these lines. I also feel this set should be the first listed, but I haven't tested bulky Starmie much to give a full opinion about it.

[Jirachi]

Originally Posted by Fat Super Mario Bro

On the bulky set, Starmie should have 224 speed EVs for Tornadus-I.

Now that Tornadus-T is gone, it's probably worth it actually. I'll add it!

Originally Posted by Fat Dark Fallen Angel

On the Life Orb set, I think that you should list Leftovers as one of the item options, or at least mention it on Additional Comments, since it boosts Starmie's survivability quite a bit. Starmie doesn't want to die too quickly, it wants to live long enough to be able to spin, and Leftovers helps on this regard, although Starmie has to sacrifice a bit of power because of this. Mention that rain can mitigate this to some extent, as Starmie can use the more powerful Thunder, instead of Thunderbolt, and its Hydro Pump will be boosted.

I'll give it an AC mention since quite honestly, Life Orb is a much better item choice. Starmie's main goal is to go out there is wreck the opponent, forcing switches etc., and Life Orb is just so much better for that. I understand that Leftovers add some survivability to Starmie which is great, but it loses so much power from that, that it won't be able to threaten the opponent as much anymore. Rain helps I guess. I'll mention it.

[RaikouLover]

Don't downplay Leftovers on offensive Starmie. Starmie doesn't like Life Orb without recover when it has to deal with Sand and such. Starmie doesn't NEED Life Orb if you play it on rain to be honest.

[Pocket]

Jiracheeeee~

I'll AC mention that bulky Star has an option to run Psyshock AND Ice Beam if it sacrifices Recover for the extra coverage. I've done this before, and it proves useful when you want to snipe dragons and genies without losing to Keldeo / Breloom / Gengar

Also AC for the same set Toxic; this will allow Starmie to beat Sableye in Sun or Jellicent

AC 0 Atk IVs to minimize Sabeley's Foul Play

For the offensive set, Expert Belt deserves a slash with Life Orb. Starmie has broad super-effective coverage, and EB provides enough boost without the LO recoil.

AC mention Grass Knot / HP Grass > TB on offensive set to deal with Gastrodon, which is admittedly becoming uncommon. Grass Knot will retain Starmie's ability to 2HKO Jellicent, but HP Grass lets you hit Rotom-W the hardest.

OO mentions:

~ HP Fire on Sun teams
~ Reflect Type to shrug off U-turns / Pursuit
~ Thunder Wave
~ Thunder > TB on Rain teams
~ Blizzard on Hail teams
~ Rain Dance / Hail for weather control

[Jirachi]

Yeah ok, I'll add these asap. I kinda overlooked most of the oo mentions you suggested at first because they're fairly rare on Starmie anyway, but they sound interesting.

edit: done

edit 2 @ AG: done
also alexwolf I'm reading your thing dw

[alexwolf]

Here are some suggestions:

Overview

• Recover and Natural Cure make it the most resilient Rapid Spinner, as well as an ideal Pokemon for taking on defensive Water-types

Bulky Rapid Spin

Set Comments:

• Thunderbolt is better than Ice Beam so i say slash it after Psyshock in the third slot and mention Ice Beam in the AC. Thunderbolt gives to Starmie a way to at least damage Jellicent, allowing it to 2HKO defensive variants if they have taken 25% previous damage and SR is on the field. It also allows it to counter Gyarados, a very dangerous Pokemon in general, damage Tentacruel, Politoed, Keldeo, and generaly many targets of Psyshock. In a few words it lets Starmie deal with threats it can actually switch into. Ice Beam hits mainly Pokemon that you can only revenge kill and cannot switch into at all (Dnite, Salamence, Breloom, Latios, Garchomp, etc), making it a much less desired option.

Additional Comments:

• Thunder + 124 SpA EVs to 2HKO defensive Jellicent after SR (and Thunder in general for rain teams)
• Reflect Type in the third slot. Reflect type lets Starmie beat Pokemon that it would otherwise have to gamble to do so, such as Scizor, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn. Many CB Tyranitar and Scizor switch in when you try to spin and take their chances (70%) of ohkoing you with Pursuit, and Reflect type completely solves this, and allows you to keep your important spinner alive. Ferrothorn is also easily beaten and cannot do anything back at you (it can't even Leech Seed you) while you can take your time and fish for the Scald burn. Finally you can easily stay into non-Scarf Rotom-W and copy its typing, allowing you to beat it one on one if it decides to stay in, or just deny the opponent from momentum if it uses Volt Switch

Life Orb

Set Comments:

• This is how i would make the set to look like:

name: Life Orb
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam / Recover
move 4: Rapid Spin
item: Life Orb / Leftovers

• long ass reasoning

  ---

  Here is the reasoning behind it. First Surf should be slashed for the classic matter of power vs reliability. Then Psyshock is the next best option as it deals with important Pokemon that Starmie is fit to handle, such as Keldeo, Tentacruel, and Terrakion in sand, as well as many other important Pokemon such as Gengar, Breloom, Blissey, SpD Jellicent, Rotom-W, Toxicroak, Gastrodon and Venusaur (all those Pokemon are either OHKOed or 2HKOed after SR). Ice Beam is slashed first in the next slot as obviously Dragon-types and Celebi are very important targets that you don't want to miss on hitting and so Hydro Pump + Psyshock + Ice Beam provide the best coverage possible. Thunderbolt is an option over Psyshock as it has good coverage with Ice Beam obviously and hits some threats such as Gyarados, Politoed, defensive Jellicent, and Starmie, but Psyshock is clearly the better option. In the third slot Recover is slashed second as some teams want Starmie to spin more than once, while also wanting offensive pressence (meaning that defensive Starmie is a no), and Recover helps a lot. Recover should be used with Hydro Pumo + Psyshock, as those two together hit the biggest number of targets and are Starmie's strongest moves as well. tl;dr Hydro Pump + Psyshock + Ice Beam is the best three move combo and sets with Recover should use Hydro Pump + Psyshock, while Thunderbolt is good for teams that have troubles with Gyarados and defensive Jellicent. Finally, Leftovers should really be on the set as LO damage + hazard damage + resisted attacks will kill Starmie insanely fast (as well as potential sandstorm damage) and not all teams want that. For example i would almost never use LO Starmie on a sand team.

Additional Comments:

• HP Fire on sun teams
• Thunder for rain teams
• Blissey is not a counter. SubRoost Kyurem, Chansey, SpD Celebi, and Ferrothorn are
• Therefore strong Fighting Pokemon are awesome partners. Terrakion, Toxicroak, and Breloom can deal with most of those Pokemon

Choice Scarf

Set Comments:

• Slash Hydro Pump before or after Surf
• Maybe slash Psyshic / Psyshock somewhere

Checks and Counters

• Blissey is only a check as both LO and Specs 2HKO with Psyshock after SR.
• Similarly defensive Jellicent is 2HKOed by LO Tbolt, and SpD Jellicent is 2HKOed by LO Psyshock after SR
• Mention that Rotom-W has to be careful of LO / Specs Psyshock but other than that it is a fantastic check
• SpD Kyu-B counters any offensive set, while any other Kyu-B set is a good check
• SpD Celebi and Chansey are the only true counters to any Starmie

[AccidentalGreed]

For all intents and purpose, rename the Life Orb set to "Non-Choice Attacker."

[Harsha]

"Offensive Rapid Spin" seems like a better fit for the more offensive set because Rapid Spin should be the main reasoning for using Starmie on the team (as plenty of special attackers have more power, though base 115 Speed is a boon of course). When you're mentioning Hail, make sure you call it a disrupting tool. There's no other purpose for Hail, and it's pretty much to just take out the opponent's sand / rain / sun benefits once their weather inducer is down. I also think Leftovers should have a slash on the offensive Rapid Spin set because Starmie still manages to 2HKO Tyranitar with Hydro Pump, and a lot of teams will want their Rapid Spin user sticking around. Losing 10% every time you need to get rid of hazards (even more if the opponent is running Ferrothorn) is not always worth it. Once these changes are made:

QC Approved (1/2)

[Jirachi]

Due to the sheer amount of people asking for leftovers on the offensive set, I've added it as a slash. I've made all of your other changes too. ty for the stamp n_n

[PK Gaming]

Couple of things

• I agree with Harsha, replace non-choiced attacker with "Offensive Rapid Spin."

• The Offensive Rapid Spin set should be the first set listed. It doesn't see much use on ladder play, but its really common in mid to high level play, and absurdly powerful in BW OU. In addition to being a powerful offensive threat(especially in the rain), it doubles as a spinner as well, and is invaluable on offensive teams.

• Surf needs a slash on the Offensive Rapid Spin set(on every set that has Hydro Pump really), and the Expert Belt should be dropped into AC and replaced with Leftovers. Expert Belt isn't in the same league as Leftovers or LO. I completely agree with what Alexwolf posted.

• Rapid Spin should mentioned in AC on the Choice Specs set. If you're going to use Choice Specs you should commit to it; Rapid Spin in your moveset assumes that you're going to be tricking early, which doesn't always happen. Trick is something you use when you can't through a core, or you need to cripple Blissey / Ferrothorn.

Choice Specs should look like this:

name: Choice Specs
move 1: Hydro Pump / Surf
move 2: Psyshock / Thunderbolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Trick

I would also consider mentioning running both Hydro Pump & Surf on the same set in AC.

• Hydro Pump needs a slash on the Choice Scarf set.

• I would be move Tyranitar down as a check, since its kind of a meh check (and Scarf is non-existent) and move Jellicent up, since its a decent stop to Starmie (provided it doesn't switch into thunderbolt directly). Just take out the Scizor mention period and replace it with Weavile. (If SCIZOR is your Starmie check, you're fucked). Kyurem-B is a fantastic offensive check to Starmie.

[Hemp Man]

You could mention Signal Beam under [Other Options] if you really hate Celebi. But I think Celebi is the only notable thing that SB hits, and to be honest Starmie kinda has 4MSS problems as it already is IMO.

[Jirachi]

Alright PK Gaming, I've added everything you mentioned. I've used Choice Specs Starmie a lot and from my experience, the second coverage move isn't that useful, which is why I added Rapid Spin instead of it. I see what you mean though, I've put it in AC instead.

Also, Signal Beam isn't really good as Celebi already takes a load of damage from Ice Beam.

[PK Gaming]

Don't forget to implement all of alexwolf's changes since he's now on the QC team. (and I agree with everything he's said)

[RaikouLover]

Recover helps on Offensive Rapid Spin. I see a lot of people use Hydro Pump / Thunder / Recover / Rapid Spin. It sticks around with Leftovers against bulkier teams to spin another day and in the Rain it defeats all the spin blockers (except RH Ferrothorn). Kind of important IMO (at least, important enough for a heavy mention and slash). Starmie is hardly anyone's main offensive weapon - people use it for Rapid Spin.

Reflect Type in OO, it fucks with Ferrothorn so hard.

[Hemp Man]

Two things I noticed;

Scald is Starmie's primary STAB, having decent power, good typing, and the ability to burn some of Starmie's most common switch ins, such as Ferrothorn, who are pretty useful when burned.

Shouldn't "pretty useful when burned" say "pretty useless when burned?"

Also, on the Choice Sets, I'd mention that if T-Tar comes in on a Choice-locked Ice Beam or Thunderbolt it can easily Pursuit Starmie without fear or a Water STAB move.

[tehy]

I'd like to throw my two cents into the ring (And fuse two idioms)

I've found that it's highly effective to EV starmie to outspeed tornadus-I by one, and throw the rest of the Evs into HP (If using Recover). Now, that might sound like it doesn't make much of a difference, and i hear you all asking "Why would i lose the ability to speed tie with enemy Starmie for THAT?".


Basically, with the investment, Starmie takes 50% max from Skarmory's uninvested Brave Bird and 252 SpA neutral natured Heatran's Fire Blast/Earth Power/Dragon Pulse, which means you can switch in, take a hit, and Recover as they run. If they use hazards, you can spin on their faces, then Recover from any of those hits continually without losing any health. Normally that invites a critical, but since you can just as easily OHKO either of them (Even SpD Skarm gets in range by BB recoil), staying in is a risky proposition. And since they're often the main hazards users of a team, you may not even be worn down by hazards! Spinblockers can try to switch in, but since attacking's an equally viable option, Gengar needs to watch himself at all times, and Jellicent can't come in from Skarmory risk-free (And he needs Shadow Ball to strike back). Lefties Starmie can't even be worn down in SS/Hail, and 100% regains health in any other situation. LOmie can still ball in non-SS/Hail, and even though it can be semi-worn down with Rapid Spin, it can stay alive long enough to block Skarm/Heatran 3-4 times, which is PROBABLY enough.

Basically, those extra HP evs mean you can dominate Skarmory totally, and deal with offensive Heatran that lack Dark Pulse/SE hidden powers, thus allowing you to spin with a really high degree of safety on those two. Meanwhile, you only lose the ability to speed tie with enemy Starmie, as well the VERY occasional Azelf.

[tab]

Thunderbolt isn't really great on defensive Starmie. Very, very occasionally, you're going to be glad you had it, but checking Keldeo/Virizion/Breloom/whatever else is far more important. It's only in a very idealised situation that Thunderbolt is going to be worth it. Honestly, if I had to choose between countering Gyarados and countering Keldeo, I'd take the latter.

Using 124 offensive EVs and Thunder on a defensive set is frankly stupid. Starmie is hardly the bulkiest mon to begin with, and it needs every single point it can get. If you're using 124 SpA EVs, then you may as well just go offensive Starmie with leftovers. Reflect type is even more of a gimmick than it is on Latias, but I guess it is sort of viable.

[RaikouLover]

Electric move on Starmie with Rapid Spin is really just for beating Jellicent so you can spin.

Reflect type seems gimmicky, but Starmie was able to come in on my Ferrothorn and continue to spin my shit. Some people use Rocky Helmet Ferrothorn as their anti-spin. Even still, Reflect type basically flips a middle finger when people bring Ferrothorn in on Starmie.

[Princess Bri]

I agree with Tab regarding defensive Starmie and Thunder. Thunder(bolt) is just a "meh" option on Defensive Starmie this generation due to the fact that Gyarados is a rare sight, and bulky-waters like Jellicent and Tentacruel are either to bulky (Jellicent often runs some SpDef investment) or Tentacruel loses to your STAB. Starmie needs the bulk to switch into RESISTED moves like Close Combat from Terrakion. I would mention it in AC, but make sure the reader knows the very major cons of not running maximum HP.

I think Leftovers is ideal on Offensive Starmie. It makes it easier to check Keldeo and spin for Offensive Rain teams. You still 2HKO Physically Defensive Jellicent. The power boost is useful to help break through Ferrothorn, but its still a 3HKO which isn't reliable and it still counters you. Rotom-W is annoying, but SpD counters Life Orb as well. Tyranitar is handled by double switching to a fighting-type or Politoed.

Oh and Reflect Type is cool too.


QC Approved 2/2

[alexwolf]

Originally Posted by Fat tab

Thunderbolt isn't really great on defensive Starmie. Very, very occasionally, you're going to be glad you had it, but checking Keldeo/Virizion/Breloom/whatever else is far more important. It's only in a very idealised situation that Thunderbolt is going to be worth it. Honestly, if I had to choose between countering Gyarados and countering Keldeo, I'd take the latter.

Using 124 offensive EVs and Thunder on a defensive set is frankly stupid. Starmie is hardly the bulkiest mon to begin with, and it needs every single point it can get. If you're using 124 SpA EVs, then you may as well just go offensive Starmie with leftovers. Reflect type is even more of a gimmick than it is on Latias, but I guess it is sort of viable.

For the reasons you said Tbolt will be slashed second and not first. It is the next best option after Psyshock.

By using 124 SpA evs you manage to beat defensive Jellicent and you still have ok survivability. You still have Recover + Lefties, while offensive Starmie will only have lefties usually. This spread is mentioned in the AC for rain teams that have huge troubles with defensive Jellicent but still want the longevity of defensive Starmie. Pretty simple concept no?

Finally i have used Reflect Type a lot and it is actually very cool. BandTar, CB Scizor, Rotom-W, and Ferrothorn always loom in the corner, wanting to ruin Starmie's day, and Reflect Type is an awesome answer to those fuckers.

EDIT: Damn it bri don't steal my approvals :)

[Neliel]

Have you ever tried Starmie with Hydro pump / Ice beam / Thunder / Recover with life orb under rain? its not bad, i dont think rapid spin is that necessary sometimes, and this set is not outclassed by everything i think. Maybe its worht a mention somewhere

You should also add Aboma as a check, it takes poor damages from everything starmie has and eliminates the rain.

[jc104]

I'm somewhat disappointed by the lack of any Analytic mentions here. I know Natural Cure is a great ability, but Analytic is pretty severely underrated. Yes, Starmie is incredibly fast, and so won't get the boost a lot of the time, but Analytic works on the switch and can turn starmie into an absolute nuke - it's more powerful than keldeo on the switch, faster, and with better coverage. You can 2HKO Ferrothorn with Specs Hydro Pump in the rain (a small chance with no prior damage). Short of Chansey (which takes 50% from Hpump on the switch) Starmie becomes virtually uncounterable.

I'd say it's definitely worth an AC mention on specs, and probably also on standard.