Weavile(BW2 Revamp) [QC: 3/3][GP: 0/2]

[alexwolf]

Please add the changes i suggested in my last post.

[CedOmega]

Originally Posted by Fat alexwolf

Please add the changes i suggested in my last post.

Done. Sorry about that alexwolf. The post seemed to have glitched a bit while I was editing and didn't implament the changes I made.

Open to more OO & CC recommendations.

[alexwolf]

First of all there are some formatting issues so check this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/announc...hp?f=148&a=181. There are many lack of spaces between words, as well as unecessary gaps between lines, and finally set comments and additional comments must be capitalized.

Now on to the content:

Overview

I would suggest scrapping the whole overview and adding this instead:

• Good Dragon revenge killer, as well as Pursuit trapper
• Pursuit and way better speed differentiate it from Mamoswine
• Usually found in Deo-D teams with Gengar
• Very frail and SR weak, thus very hard to bring in
• OHKOed from almost all priority
• Relatively easy to wall

Physical Attacker

Set Comments: (here you are supposed to describe the sets purpose and what each move does)

• This is how the set should look like:

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Ice Shard
move 2: Night Slash / Ice Punch
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Low Kick
item: Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Jolly
evs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe

• Ice Punch, Night Slash, and Low Kick explanations

Additional Comments:

• EVs to outspeed 212 Spe Dragonite at +1 (Bulky DDnite, which is mentioned in the AC of offensive Dnite) and rest to HP for a little bulk
• Mention Choice Band here, and emphazise how easily Weavile can be set-up on with it
• Mention Swords Dance instead of Pursuit. When using SD the other moves should be Ice Shard / Night Slash / Low Kick. Stick here the part where you say that Weavile find almost zero set-up oportunities
• Here is also the part where you mention teammates so move here the Deo-D and Gengar stuff
• A spinner in general is an ok partner but not essential at all. Forretress and Starmie are good options, and Forretress set up SR as well, which helps Weavile
• Scizor and Volcarona checks are needed as well. Terrakion and Dragonite handle Volcarona, Keldeo and Landorus-T check Scizor, and Gyarados deals with both

Other options

• Punishement for Calm Mind users such as Latias, CM Jirachi, and Reuniclus
• Taunt to prevent Volcrona and Gyarados from setting up on you, as well as hazard setters from abusing you
• Brick Break
• Fake Out and Counter on a lead set

Checks and Counters

• Add Volcarona and Gyarados, as well as Tentacruel and Politoed

[Ernesto]

I'm sorry, alexwolf, but isn't that the very definition of speed creeping? I'd say you either stick to outspeeding Alakazam (216 Speed EVs are needed, since 212 force a Speed tie with non-HP Fire Zam) and Dugtrio, or you go ahead and max Speed to tie with opposing Weavile. Dunno if there's anything worthwhile inbetween those two, but I doubt it—there's the incredibly uncommon Jolly Scarf Scizor (228 Spe EVs), and that's about it. And I really see no point on trying to be faster than it anyway, since you're gonna be forced out whatever set it's running

[Swamp-Rocket]

Yeah trying to outspeed a certain set for a certain Pokemon that doesn't fully invest is speed creeping.

I'm not part of QC or anything, but to be completely honest I think that there should just be the tired and true 4/252/252 spread. Weavile is so freaking frail it hardly matters if there are HP EVs, and most players (including me) will likely just click on "suggested EV spread" on PS and get 252 Speed EVs rather than memorizing "hey I gotta use 224 or 216 Speed EVs on my Weavile!" I don't really think the extra bulk is going to come in handy as often as running the speed EVs so then you can speed tie and not possibly get OHKOed by an opposing Weavile that decides to go fully invested.

[Pocket]

Weavile's Speed tier is unique to Weavile, Swellow, and some other uncommon threats, so max Speed is rather unnecessary. Stick with 216 Spe EVs to outrun Dugtrio / Alakazam.

You can AC mention max Spe EVs; most DD Nite are max Atk / max Spe, so I wont bother with the extra Spe EVs, alexwolf. It's still gameover if DD Nite carries ExtremeSpeed, and Weavile can always Ice Shard for the revenge-kill anyway.

OO mention Swords Dance ;o

[alexwolf]

Yeah my bad guys, drop the Speed down to 216 EVs. I already mentioned to put SD in the AC but i don't have a problem with it being in OO either. It just seems a tad better than the other options listed there. Opinions?

[Pocket]

Yea, AC is fine - as long as SD is mentioned somewhere in the analysis

[CedOmega]

Thanks to alexwolf for helping me with the formatting. I appreciate your help very much. I think it's about done for now, maybe. If anyone has any other suggestions, I'm open to them now.

Thanks for everyone helping me out in my first attempt! :)

[AccidentalGreed]

Ooh. Uh, before we discuss this any further, you might want to expand the checks and counters section, since Weavile has many of them in the cruel world of OU. Mention threats like priority and super defensive Pokemon, such as Jirachi.

Last time I checked, you had a pretty good one going on earlier.

[CedOmega]

Originally Posted by Fat AccidentalGreed

Ooh. Uh, before we discuss this any further, you might want to expand the checks and counters section, since Weavile has many of them in the cruel world of OU. Mention threats like priority and super defensive Pokemon, such as Jirachi.

Last time I checked, you had a pretty good one going on earlier.

Thanks for the suggestion. I added your suggestions in on the areas mentioned. Open to more suggestions now, I guess.

[jc104]

Could you remove the comment in the overview about Deo-D/Gengar teams. Not only is the type of team not usually included in the overview (unless it's a crucial weather condition), but the most obvious use for weavile is not on that type of team at all. The most obvious benefit of weavile is to pursuit trap effectively without being a tyranitar, and bringing potentially unwelcome sand.

The type of team where you should see weavile, therefore, is rain. It's a great trapper of many pesky water resists - jellicent, celebi, and latias, for example, and also beats grass and dragon types via its ice type moves. Don't mention this in the overview, but it's worth noting in the ac.

[alexwolf]

Yeah i got a bit carried away from my own experience so remove the part about Deo-D + Gengar from the overview, as Weavile can be equally succesful in other team-types as well. But be sure to give to Deo-D + Gengar teams a strong mention in the AC, as the ability to trap and kill the only spinner that can get past starmie, the ability to revenge kill Dragons, Landorus, Venusar, and other mons, and finally the ability to Pursuit trap troublesome Pokemon in general are all major boons for Deo-D HO teams.

In checks and counters mention that any Scarfer except for those weak to Ice Shard can revenge kill Weavile.



QC Approved 1/3

[CedOmega]

Awesome! Ok, I making the suggested changes made by alexwolf & jc104.

Open to more suggestions. :)

EDIT: Changes made! Open to more QCs and suggestions. Thanks to alexwolf and jc104 for the help.

[shrang]

I've been using Expert Belt Weavile instead of Life Orb and it works pretty decently. Most of the targets you are trying to kill with Weavile are weak to its attacks, so I think EB deserves a mention in AC.

Other than that,


QC Approved 2/3

[CedOmega]

Will edit as soon as I'm able to. Thanks for the suggestion.

[NoUserName]

Originally Posted by Fat jc104

The type of team where you should see weavile, therefore, is rain. It's a great trapper of many pesky water resists - jellicent, celebi, and latias, for example, and also beats grass and dragon types via its ice type moves. Don't mention this in the overview, but it's worth noting in the ac.

I agree rain is one of the enviroments in where Weavile shines. Keldeo may be mentioned as a partner, since Weavile traps and kills things faster than Keldeo, specially those resistant to Keldeo's STAB, such as Latios, Latias, Alakazam, if Keldeo is Scarf, Weavile only has to worry to break its Sash, Gengar, Starmie and Dugtrio, and Celebi and Jellicent.

If Keldeo is non-Scarf, Weavile is a lot more important because it kills the fast threads mentioned previously.

[CedOmega]

Changes made.

Open to more Q/Cs, suggestions and/or comments.

[AccidentalGreed]

Oh, no, feel free to write this up now. Due to our new QC process system, you should only get the final QC check after this is written up, so do so.

[CedOmega]

Ok. Thanks AccidentalGreed.
I will have this written up as soon as I'm able to.


EDIT: Am working on getting this up before next Friday at the latest. Als wondering, is it okay if I quote select parts from the former Weavile OU analysis? Finding some difficulty trying to paraphrase the way its said while incorporating the new points brought up.

[CedOmega]

Seemingly finished. Writing up is a totally new thing for me, so if there are any mistakes, let'em loose. I'm open to any help.

[papai noel]

You may want to fix the set format before someone else complain about it. It should be like this:

[SET]
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Ice Shard
move 2: Night Slash / Ice Punch
move 3: Pursuit
move 4: Low Kick
item: Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Jolly
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

There's also no need to put a paragraph to define each move. You can merge them together.

[CedOmega]

Thanks for the tips, Papai Noel. I made the changes and am now open to more suggestions or a QC.

[Pocket]

Overview

You need to expand more on Weavile's positive qualities. Elaborate on its amazing 125 base Speed, allowing it to outrun significant threats like Alakazam, Starmie, and Scarftar; that's HUGE. Combine this with access to Pursuit allows it to prey on many top Ghost and Psychic types of OU, namely Latios, Gengar, and Starmie. It's noteworthy that there are many Pursuit users, but only a few handful Pokemon like Weavile can really pull it off effectively / not be a liability outside of Pursuit-trapping. Ice Shard also revenge-kills many dangerous threats, namely Rock Polish Landorus and +1 Salamence.

As for its shortcomings, the lack of high-powered moves to complement its high Atk has to be its greatest flaw, as it struggles to maim Pokemon that it hits neutrally or even super-effectively at times. Weavile especially has a tough time breaking past Water- and Steel-types that are neutral to Low Kick.

I'd like to see all of these information incorporated into your overview.

and the B/W introduced Conkeldurr and Volcarona still pose major threats to Weavile.

Replace Conkeldurr with Keldeo, a much more pertinent threat in the current metagame.

Since the release of BW2, Weavile have often been seen amoungst hyper offensive teams using both Deoxys-D and Gengar.

As jc104 suggested, remove this sentence, since it's rather misleading. Any team that requires Weavile's Pursuit-trapping / Ice-shard / Speed capabilities can benefit from Weavile, not just Deo-D teams.

Set Comment

~ You failed to mention Night Slash and Ice Punch in your set comments. Instruct users the pros and cons of either move.[list][*]Night Slash hits certain Pursuit targets for super-effective damage, such as Jellicent and Starmie, thereby punishing these mons if they ever act bold and decide to stay. Night Slash also allows Weavile to connect Water-types (Rotom-W, Politoed, and Tentacruel) and Jirachi for strong neutral domage. [*]On the other hand, Ice Punch is certainly useful for hitting Ice-weak mons for strong damage, actually threatening to KO mons like Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Gliscor, and Landorus-T if they decide to stay. It also punishes Conkeldurr who would otherwise set up on Weavile with ease.

With 216 Speed investment, Weavile can outpace everything necessary in OU, while the remaining 40 Hp investment adds bulk as it takes repeated Life Orb damage. With Tornadus-T now brande Uber, it only needs but 216 Speed EV investment to fuction effectively in battle.

Specify what the Spread allows Weavile to be faster, namely Alakazam and anything slower (including Starmie, Latios, and Tornadus). Also remove the sentence about Tornadus-T, it's unnecessary.

Low Kick rounds off Weavile's needed coverage, while also ensuring that it is not restricted to only two base 40 power moves; Pursuit and Ice Punch.

• You meant Ice Shard here, not Ice Punch.
• Also you can definitely expand more about the usefulness of Low Kick. It's a major boon to Weavile's otherwise limited physical movepool, allowing it to lethally maim Steel-types, namely Ferrothorn, Heatran, and Magnezone. It's also a coverage move essential in nabbing quick and easy KOs against Tyranitar, Terrakion, Mamoswine, and offensive Kyurem-Black (after SR)!

Other Options

~ This section comes AFTER Additional Comments, so please swap the position of these two sections

~ Add that Focus Sash / Ice Gem / Dark Gem / Fighting Gem can pair well with Weavile's Pickpocket ability.

Punishment is an option over Ice Punch and Night Slash if your team needs some extra help in taking down bulky Calm Mind users. CM Latias, Reuniclus and Jirachi are but a few examples that come to mind when considering Punishment.

Nah, Punishment should never replace Ice Punch / Night Slash; they are necessary for reliable damage against non-boosters. If anything it'll replace Pursuit.

Checks and Counters

~ This section is unorganized - break different types of checks and counters into separate paragraphs. Defensively bulky mons that counters Weavile should be in one paragraph; and faster checks via Scarf or priority should be in another different paragraph.

Such scarf abusers include, but are not limited to, Jirachi, Terrakion, Heatran, & Gengar.

Remove Gengar, since it must rely on Focus Miss to revenge-kill Weavile (plus a weakened Gengar is prone to Ice Shard KO). You can replace it with a more pertinent Scarfer like Keldeo.

Ninetales is a relatively safe switch-in too, as are other less common Fire-types, such as Arcanine.

Remove Arcanine; it's irrelevant in OU. Ninetales also does not enjoy taking Night Slash. Only Infernape and bulky Volarona are relatively safe Fire type switch-ins.

EDIT: I initially had Heatran, since it resists both of Weavile's STAB moves, but I removed it as per Lord of Bays's input

[Lord of Bays]

Only Heatran, Infernape, and Volcarona are relatively safe Fire type switch-ins.

I know from experience that 4/0 Heatran is OHKOd by Jolly LO Low Kick after Rocks (252Atk Life Orb Weavile (Neutral) Low Kick vs 4HP/0Def Heatran (Neutral): 94% - 111% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO. 66% chance to OHKO.), and 252/0 Heatran takes a minimum of 79% from the same Weavile, so Heatran is only safe if Weavile is either Choiced or lacks Low Kick.